MODERN LOVE - Truly, Madly, Guiltily
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March 27, 2005
MODERN LOVE - Truly, Madly, Guiltily
By AYELET WALDMAN
HAVE been in many mothers' groups - Mommy and Me, Gymboree, Second-Time Moms - and each time, within three minutes, the conversation invariably comes around to the topic of how often mommy feels compelled to put out. Everyone wants to be reassured that no one else is having sex either. These are women who, for the most part, are comfortable with their bodies, consider themselves sexual beings. These are women who love their husbands or partners. Still, almost none of them are having any sex.
There are agreed upon reasons for this bed death. They are exhausted. It still hurts. They are so physically available to their babies - nursing, carrying, stroking - how could they bear to be physically available to anyone else?
But the real reason for this lack of sex, or at least the most profound, is that the wife's passion has been refocused. Instead of concentrating her ardor on her husband, she concentrates it on her babies. Where once her husband was the center of her passionate universe, there is now a new sun in whose orbit she revolves. Libido, as she once knew it, is gone, and in its place is all-consuming maternal desire. There is absolute unanimity on this topic, and instant reassurance.
Except, that is, from me.
I am the only woman in Mommy and Me who seems to be, well, getting any. This could fill me with smug well-being. I could sit in the room and gloat over my wonderful marriage. I could think about how our sex life - always vital, even torrid - is more exciting and imaginative now than it was when we first met. I could check my watch to see if I have time to stop at Good Vibrations to see if they have any exciting new toys. I could even gaze pityingly at the other mothers in the group, wishing that they too could experience a love as deep as my own.
But I don't. I am far too busy worrying about what's wrong with me. Why, of all the women in the room, am I the only one who has not made the erotic transition a good mother is supposed to make? Why am I the only one incapable of placing her children at the center of her passionate universe?
WHEN my first daughter was born, my husband held her in his hands and said, "My God, she's so beautiful."
I unwrapped the baby from her blankets. She was average size, with long thin fingers and a random assortment of toes. Her eyes were close set, and she had her father's hooked nose. It looked better on him.
She looked like a newborn baby, red and scrawny, blotchy faced and mewling. I don't remember what I said to my husband. Actually I remember very little of my Percocet- and Vicodin-fogged first few days of motherhood except for someone calling and squealing, "Aren't you just completely in love?" And of course I was. Just not with my baby.
I do love her. But I'm not in love with her. Nor with her two brothers or sister. Yes, I have four children. Four children with whom I spend a good part of every day: bathing them, combing their hair, sitting with them while they do their homework, holding them while they weep their tragic tears. But I'm not in love with any of them. I am in love with my husband.
It is his face that inspires in me paroxysms of infatuated devotion. If a good mother is one who loves her child more than anyone else in the world, I am not a good mother. I am in fact a bad mother. I love my husband more than I love my children.
An example: I often engage in the parental pastime known as God Forbid. What if, God forbid, someone were to snatch one of my children? God forbid. I imagine what it would feel like to lose one or even all of them. I imagine myself consumed, destroyed by the pain. And yet, in these imaginings, there is always a future beyond the child's death. Because if I were to lose one of my children, God forbid, even if I lost all my children, God forbid, I would still have him, my husband.
But my imagination simply fails me when I try to picture a future beyond my husband's death. Of course I would have to live. I have four children, a mortgage, work to do. But I can imagine no joy without my husband.
I don't think the other mothers at Mommy and Me feel this way. I know they would be absolutely devastated if they found themselves widowed. But any one of them would sacrifice anything, including their husbands, for their children.
Can my bad motherhood be my husband's fault? Perhaps he just inspires more complete adoration than other husbands. He cooks, cleans, cares for the children at least 50 percent of the time.
If the most erotic form of foreplay to a mother of a small child is, as I've heard some women claim, loading the dishwasher or sweeping the floor, then he's a master of titillation.
He's handsome, brilliant and successful. But he can also be scatterbrained, antisocial and arrogant. He is a bad dancer, and he knows far too much about Klingon politics and the lyrics to Yes songs. All in all, he's not that much better than other men. The fault must be my own.
I am trying to remember those first days and weeks after giving birth. I know that my sexual longing for my husband took a while to return. I recall not wanting to make love. I did not even want to cuddle. At times I felt that if my husband's hand were to accidentally brush against my breast while reaching for the saltshaker, I would saw it off with the butter knife.
Even now I am not always in the mood. By the time the children go to bed, I am as drained as any mother who has spent her day working, car pooling, building Lego castles and shopping for the precisely correct soccer cleat. I am also a compulsive reader. Put together fatigue and bookwormishness, and you could have a situation in which nobody ever gets any. Except that when I catch a glimpse of my husband from the corner of my eye - his smooth, round shoulders, his bright-blue eyes through the magnification of his reading glasses - I fold over the page of my novel.
Sometimes I think I am alone in this obsession with my spouse. Sometimes I think my husband does not feel as I do. He loves the children the way a mother is supposed to. He has put them at the center of his world. But he is a man and thus possesses a strong libido. Having found something to usurp me as the sun of his universe does not mean he wants to make love to me any less.
And yet, he says I am wrong. He says he loves me as I love him. Every so often we escape from the children for a few days. We talk about our love, about how much we love each other's bodies and brains, about the things that make us happy in our marriage.
During the course of these meandering and exhilarating conversations, we touch each other, we start to make love, we stop.
And afterward my husband will say that we, he and I, are the core of what he cherishes, that the children are satellites, beloved but tangential.
He seems entirely unperturbed by loving me like this. Loving me more than his children does not bother him. It does not make him feel like a bad father. He does not feel that loving me more than he loves them is a kind of infidelity.
And neither, I suppose, should I. I should not use that wretched phrase "bad mother." At the very least, I should allow that, if nothing else, I am good enough. I do know this: When I look around the room at the other mothers in the group, I know that I would not change places with any of them.
I wish some learned sociologist would publish a definitive study of marriages where the parents are desperately, ardently in love, where the parents love each other even more than they love the children. It would be wonderful if it could be established, once and for all, that the children of these marriages are more successful, happier, live longer and have healthier lives than children whose mothers focus their desires and passions on them.
BUT even in the likely event that this study is not forthcoming, even in the event that I face a day of reckoning in which my children, God forbid, become heroin addicts or, God forbid, are unable to form decent attachments and wander from one miserable and unsatisfying relationship to another, or, God forbid, other things too awful even to imagine befall them, I cannot regret that when I look at my husband I still feel the same quickening of desire that I felt 12 years ago when I saw him for the first time, standing in the lobby of my apartment building, a bouquet of purple irises in his hands.
And if my children resent having been moons rather than the sun? If they berate me for not having loved them enough? If they call me a bad mother?
I will tell them that I wish for them a love like I have for their father. I will tell them that they are my children, and they deserve both to love and be loved like that. I will tell them to settle for nothing less than what they saw when they looked at me, looking at him.
I saw this woman on Oprah today. She had some very interesting points. I'm wondering if this is something that should get moved to the debate board. This got very heated in a group of women interviewed on her show.
Personally, I think the biggest gift I can give my children is a model of a great marriage. An affectionate relationship with good communication skills and a united front in our love and discipline methods. I think this affects how our children form relationships for the rest of their lives. Are my children important to my dh and me? You betcha! But they wouldn't be a part of my life without him. My kids aren't the center of my life. I won't turn myself into a chauffeur, a short-order chef, a maid, or a hovering nuisance to my children because I don't have the time, energy or self-worth to care about myself and my husband.
JMHO, as always. 
Ditto Tink. That's why I think that all the women who say "I just can't trust anyone else to babysit my children" or "My DH and I can't afford to date each other" are in very grave danger. I see it so often...a couple who have an empty nest and nothing left to talk about because "the children" were what they talked about and lived for and now those children are gone. It is SO important to put spouse before children, to nurture that romantic relationship, and make each other feel special and cherished. To date, woo, flirt with, and seduce each other. Very, very important.
I read this on a blog a few days ago, and honestly, I disagree with Ms. Waldman. There is no one on this planet I love more than my children. And I know some people may think "Well, maybe that's why you're divorced." It's not, abuse and infidelity caused my marriage to fail. Anyway, I see so many wonderful marriages that aren't based on loving the spouse more than the children. Equally, yes, but more? I'm not "in love" with my children in the traditional sense, because "in love" carries romantic connotations, but I love them with a fierceness that cannot be topped. The idea of losing them makes me short of breath, and unsure if I could go on. Honestly, I'd venture to say that I'd be able to move on after the loss of either my husband or my children, simply because I'd have to. I love all of them fiercely, but if push came to shove and I had to choose, my children would "win".
That is so sweet. I love my children, but My priorities are God first then my husband then my children. I take care of my children and both my husband and I love them very much but it is more important for them to see a healthy relationship with Dh and I, than a relationship catering to their every little whimper. Something I never seen as a child was my mother and father loving on each other, I only saw and heard fighting, I will not do that to my children. It makes me happy to see Katelyn and Hailey run up to me and her daddy hugging and join in on it..lol
Sure they have seen us argue but more importantly they have seen us work it out in the end. My DH is even more attractive to me now that we have had our children, I get to see the loving father he is and how he has matured. What a wonderful post, is that a book??? I would love to get it if it is.
I cannot say I love my children more. I am like the woman who said it is a different love. I love my husband and children with all my heart and there is room in my heart for all of them.
I do show my children that they have their time with me and daddy has his time with me. I spend the entire day with them. When my husband comes home I spend more time with him. My husband and I have Sunday nights that are entirely ours and no that does not mean a baby-sitter. I AM one of those people who does not leave my kids with a baby-sitter. That doesn't mean that hubby and I cannot carve out time for just us. We make it a priority. My children are not the center of my universe. My family is. I want my children to see a loving husband and wife relationship. It is vital to keep the home fires burning. Just as I do not want my children to be neglected, I do not want my husband to be either.
I have so often felt the way this writer does!!! The majority of women that I know feel so totally absorbed in their children and daily tasks that they have nothing left for their dh. I've never felt this way and it's nice to see that I'm not the only one whose in this boat!
As for the love of my child....Palmbchprincess you said it so well with "but I love them with a fierceness that can't be topped". I DO feel 'in love' with my daughter, although it's obviously not romantic. The idea of losing my wonderful husband or my dd takes my breath away and I can't imagine life without either one of them.
It was refreshing to read this article....now I know I'm not weird for having a wonderfully, passionate sex life with the man of my dreams and still getting butterflies when he holds my hand. It's not weird that I still love to talk with him for an hour about a current event, life decisions, or a topic of debate. It doesn't mean I love my dd any less- Yay!
We do not get a babysitter very often but we have LOTS of wonderful 'alone' time together at home. Going out to us just means we can't relax as much! LOL
I have a few friends who, since they had children, rarely have sex anymore and I just don't understand it. These are women who were very sexually active before kids, so I don't see what the change is? I guess everyone has their own experience with their dh, but it's the love you had for your dh before kids that even motivated you to have them, right? That's the way I look at it. Lots of things change when you have a child, but I don't see that as one of them. (At least not permanently...I know we all probably didn't feel like it in those first months after a new baby arrives!)
Well I'm one of those who won't leave her kids with a babysitter. You don't need to leave the house to connect with your spouse. My children NEED me. My husband doesn't. In other words, my husband is self sufficient and could survive without me. It doesn't mean he'd be happy--it means he could endure and he has the maturity to understand and accept so much more than little kids. Yes, my kids come first. I helped create them and brought them into this world and I need to take care of them. For ME, that means putting them first--in a reasonable manner, mind you, not in a spoiling manner. They didn't ask to be born and almost for that reason alone I think they deserve top billing. I'm not explaining this well...I just mean that they are so little and so vulnerable that they just deserve my best. It doesn't mean I love my husband less...it simply means my kids came along and my love for them is stronger and fiercer and it's protective. My husband doesn't NEED me to love and protect him. My kids do. All of you who put your husbands first...if you had to choose would you choose your husband over your children? I'm honestly curious. I agree wholeheartedly that it's best for kids to see parents who love each other, but I can't imagine how my daughters would feel if they knew I loved Daddy more than them. After all, *I* am first in THEIR lives...how devastated they would be if they weren't first in mine....
So, to summarize, my kids come before my husband, absolutely. My marriage is very happy and healthy and I love my husband, absolutely. We have fun together as a couple and manage to have conversations that don't revolve around the children and we are not concerned that when they leave home we will be strangers to each other. Loving my kids most is something I can't help and it's something I don't WANT to help. It doesn't detract from my marriage...that's separate. I don't see how loving kids more than spouses means the marriage is doomed and no sex takes place and kids grow up with a bad example of marriage, like the author seems to imply.
Tink - Just curious, what were the women on Oprah debating? I don't see the debate in this.Everyone just has different feelings about their dh I guess.
In reading this, I felt on the opposite end of the writer. I see my flaws but I can also see what flaws the writer may have. If there were a balance in between those 2 flaws, we'd have perfection, lol.
In me, I value my DD a lot. I can't imagine my life without her. She is my flesh and blood. I wouldn't say that i'm "in love" with her but the love for a child is totally different than the love of a spouse. People fall in and out of love all the time and i've never met a person who "fell out of love" with their children, so to speak. I guess thats how I look at it.
I love my DH with all my heart. We don't have sex quite as often as before but we compromise enough to make each other happy. We still go on dates and I occasionally get that butterfly feeling. Do we have sparks like the day we met? No, far from it. When we met it was about looks and lust (as most teen relationships are). I didn't marry him for his looks, I married him for the person he is.
I *almost* want to feel bad for Mrs. Waldman's children. I had the best relationship growing up with my Mom because of the love she showed to me and her overall devotion to being 100% Mommy. Children only get a percentage of their life they can share with their parents but spouses have each other "til death do us part".
I've been thinking about this for a few hours trying to look on both sides. I see good points to each side. I see bad points to each side. I dont condemn either side. Its a matter of personal preference.
I hope this doesnt need to be moved to debate but if so thats fine.
Kate, you wrote what I was trying to explain, I think you said it well. The other thing I have to keep in mind is no matter what my children do they are my children. A spouse can do things that destroy your relationship, I've been there, but even if my child was on death row I would love them. I still think they would deserve punishment for whatever they did, and my heart would be broken, but they are my flesh and blood, created from my body, and I'd love them regardless. I cannot say that for any other person on this planet, except *maybe* my mother. I agree with Melissa that there needs to be a middle ground.
Kate, I think you are reading too far into what is being said. This is one woman's insight on a Mommy and Me complaining session about the loss of sexuality and the lack of sex in the marriages of the women that were attending the meeting, period. We have these complaining sessions on here daily.. Dh works to much... I feel like I am raising the kids on my own because of XYZ... I am lost in my life and I can't find my way back to myself... (meaning I am in a huge rut) So on and so forth..... The thing is... No one is right or wrong... Parenting and marriage aren't competitions... We are all different women, married to different men, raising different children, at different points in our lives. BUT we try to convince ourselves that our way is the right way, that anyone that doesn't do things our way is wrong and that we have to do things the way we are expected to. That is the way it is with everything not just parenting. Drivers, how many mistakes do you make while driving but raise cain when someone else makes a mistake. (Ex not using turn signal, cutting someone off) We pick apart everyone and everything including ourselves, all under the justification that our views/opinions are the "RIGHT" ones. Letters/books/programs that lean toward our way of thinking give us validation for our actions and confirm or convictions. Nothing more......... They are fodder for our fire. We have debates about religion, equal rights, politics, gas prices (things out of our control) but the important things in life our emotional, physical, spiritual well beings are brushed aside because of set standards that no one can match up to.. This woman is saying that those ladies are neglecting themselves for the sake of their children and they act like it is out of their control. She is saying that it isn't.... And she was shocked that they all were in agreement about how their lives had changed for the worse. Yet, they all just sat there and did nothing to change it, they were opting to "drudge" along. Which I know there are a lot of women out their guilty of this, many on this very board. We think because we become mothers that is all we are. We stop our lives to raise our children. And her reference to love... She is referring to the romantic love you should have with your spouse. The spark, the emotional, spiritual, physical connection a woman has with her husband.... The very thing that most marriages are lacking and the leading cause of divorce........ The love of your children comes from a different place inside you... Until they are older it is a place of much giving and not much in return... In the best situation the love from DH is always return and it replenishes you the love you have to give to your child........ Different loves that lead to a happier mama. Because as the saying goes, "ain't no body happy if mama ain't happy"...
I don't think she doesn't love her children. I don't think her children are neglected. I think her writing was not very clear and easily read into. And I think that something that should have been empowering has left confusion...
I am sorry i haven't had time to read all the posts so excuse me if i am repeating something that was already said.
And why is she feeling guilty about? I just think that this woman has got it wrong. I believe i love both with all my heart, only in different ways. I don't feel guilty because i prefer to spend more time with my dh than my ds. But mostly i like to spend my time with the two of them. I love my partner as a man, as a father, as the best friend of all, as someone to trust completely and rely on completely. And i believe he does too. And our son, i believe has made our love stronger than what already was, so i love him in return on top of all the things i love him for. (i don't think i am explaining this well).
I think a lot of healthy marriages feel this way, but that is not reason to give love scores to members of family. I know i love my immediate family (dh and ds) most than anything else in the world. Then comes the rest. But i don't think they need a score or that anyone has to compete for being loved more.
As for the sex, i am happy for all the women who get it several days a week. I am not one of them but i don't complain. And i know for a fact that dh doesn't either. I think it takes a lot of understanding to put relationship on hold for a few months when we have our babies, especially the first ones. When we love each other i think there is time for everything and sex sometimes can wait. That doesn't mean that all the women in the mummy and baby group who complain will stay like that forever. If they have a loving husband surely they will get back to it as soon as they feel it. And sometimes women camaderie (sp?) makes us talk like that. If a friend of mine is complaining that her husband is not helping enough i will not start to tell her how wonderful mine is. Sometimes women talk just for talking, just for the pleasure of being together and having somthing in common.
That said, i don't usually participate in conversations about complaining and moaning because i have nothing to moan about. But that doesn't mean that i think those women have a miserable life because they are putting their children before their husbands.
Every family is different and although i agree that there are women so immersed in their children that they neglect their partners, i also believe that the majority of women want a healthy balance of having a loving man-woman relationship as well as loving their children.
I also believe that a solid, loving marriage is the base of any family (if that is possible) and that mum and dad have to be in the same side to teach their children the values they want them to learn.
So there, i've said it. Sorry if this was so long. I just think that woman's letter sounded very judgemental abut other women and that it sounded as if she was the victim, i mean if she thinks it's right why is she feeling guilty about it? Maye is because she doesn't love her children enough (and there are women like that, maybe not a lot but some, so besotted with their husbands that they love their children less).
I just think is a different kind of love, never the same but equally strong.
I was just re-readinthis woman's letter:
"But the real reason for this lack of sex, or at least the most profound, is that the wife's passion has been refocused. Instead of concentrating her ardor on her husband, she concentrates it on her babies. Where once her husband was the center of her passionate universe, there is now a new sun in whose orbit she revolves. Libido, as she once knew it, is gone, and in its place is all-consuming maternal desire. There is absolute unanimity on this topic, and instant reassurance.
Except, that is, from me".
Oh i cant' believe this woman! She say's the "the real reason" what is she, a mindreader? Does she have all the truth of everything? Ah! but that is all the rest of the women...except her (within 3 minutes mums will invariably start moaning and complaining about the lack of sex? as if nobody had anything else to talk about, ha!).
It just makes me angry the generalisation this woman is making. Here's another one (I like the bit about "I am the only woman..."):
"I am the only woman in Mommy and Me who seems to be, well, getting any. This could fill me with smug well-being. I could sit in the room and gloat over my wonderful marriage. I could think about how our sex life - always vital, even torrid - is more exciting and imaginative now than it was when we first met. I could check my watch to see if I have time to stop at Good Vibrations to see if they have any exciting new toys. I could even gaze pityingly at the other mothers in the group, wishing that they too could experience a love as deep as my own.
But I don't. I am far too busy worrying about what's wrong with me. Why, of all the women in the room, am I the only one who has not made the erotic transition a good mother is supposed to make? Why am I the only one incapable of placing her children at the center of her passionate universe?"
Oh poor woman!!! IS she the only one incapable of placing her children at the centre of her passionate universe!!? Well maybe not but she is incapable of understanding that love can cover both husband AND children as i said before in equal strong measures and that there is no need to put a grade to it.
I'm sorry, maybe it's a good idea if this was moved to the debating board LOL.
Sorry again, i'll try not to get heated
Ditto Bobbie- Also, this article got her on the Oprah show and sold alot of papers! LOL I love it. Doesnt she have a book for sale?
I dont have a problem with how she feels. These are just her feelings/thoughts and I do beleive she loves her children and her husband. I think her point was just that she loves her husband dearly, they have a great sex life-- and many of her friends refuse to have sex with their husbands. I do think we can quickly neglect our marraiges after we have children. And I agree with her that if my dh came home from work and HELPED me swish a toilet out, do a load of laundry, swept the floor, helped with the dishes and bath time-- I would be so turned on he couldnt keep me off of him. Its ashame for him. ROFL I love him and my children. As my children get older I can tell you that their focus shifts off of mommy and on to friends.
I do believe that God, spouse, and then children is the order of priorities. DO I keep those in order every week? No... But I do attempt too.
I think some people are reading to much into it. It is a fun racy article. Its thought provoking and will probably sell books and make her alot of money. Good for her.
Interesting quote. Where does my hubby compare? Well I guess if I had to choose which had I would grab if they were hanging off a cliff, I'd choose my child. But I guess what makes us strong is he would let go and want me to choose the child. I think probably the most important thing is you are on the same page with you hubby. There is nothing like him putting you first and the kids second and you putting the kids over him. Do we have a passionate sex life? at times we do, at times we go weeks without sex. As far as God in this picture, well I know that I am responsible for my children's souls, it is my job to teach and guide them, not true for my hubby. Everything we have here is only Earthly, we have to look more distant than that. I love my children unconditional, just like God loves us, as the sinners we are. I just don't know how true that is for my hubby. I mean I can forgive a lot of things, but I know there is a limit of what I can take. That being said we work hard on our marriage, sitter or not we date, not weekly, but monthly. We spend time together every night, when it is possible, sometimes he travels or we have late activities. We value our marriage and know how important it is to show our kids how a marriage works. But I know I don't need him, I could live without him. If he dies I will be okay, I will be sad, but I will move on.
For my perspective I have now watched my dad in three marriages. This isn't due to divorce, but death. My mom died 7 years ago, he remarried and lost his second wife, and he just remarried again. But through that I am his constant, I don't come first, but I am certainly equal. I am on their checking account, I have medical power of atty, etc. He doesn't value his wife any less, but lessons have taught us that this will end. And in the ideal circle of life your spouse will die before your children.
I don't know the answers, but I know that after 15 years we are still very happy, we would both do it again and choose to be married because we want to, not need to be with each other.
Ditto Tink and Yvonne! The love I feel for my children is very different for the love I share with my husband. To use the celestial analogy (as Ms. Waldman does} Our marriage is the Sun. Each of us is like a planet, held in place by that sun. We're our own little solar system, needing and depending on each other. My babies need me and so does my husband. My husband needs his babies and me. We need aour marriage to keep us centered and grounded.
When I found out that I would have to wait six week post partum I went out of my mind. I really think the six week waiting period sets up the rest of the sexual issues that arise after a couple becomes a family. It sets the tone.
Of couse I get tired. Of course there are a few times I don't want to be intimate but I do it anyway. But every single time, I am so happy I found the energy.
My children - well I look at them and am overwhelmed by the love I have for them. My husband - well I look at him and am overwhelmed by the love I have for him.
I refuse to engage in her God Forbid game. I've seen it first hand with my sil who lost her husband and daughter.
I do believe that by loving my children I am expressing love for my husband. After all, are they not just the product of that love?
Ame
Bobby - I just re-read your post. I think it was a really great.
Ame
Sorry, it's me again. I just thought her language was a bit patronising, and i don't like people patronising me. Probabably it's because in the mother and baby groups i have been women are not always complainng about their sex lives. I just don't know is this woman is talking in general, as if talking about all new mothers, or if she's just talking about the mum and baby groups she has attended. Either way i think she' wrong to talk about other women like that. How does she really know what these women feel? Has she lived with them for the last ten years? Does she live with them now? These women probably are not telling this woman the whole truth, and who would? With an attitude like that. I don't know, i just don't like it when someone talks as though they have the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I agree with Bobbie when she said:
"No one is right or wrong... Parenting and marriage aren't competitions... We are all different women, married to different men, raising different children, at different points in our lives. BUT we try to convince ourselves that our way is the right way, that anyone that doesn't do things our way is wrong and that we have to do things the way we are expected to. That is the way it is with everything not just parenting".
Yes, she probably loves her husband and her children, good for her (do i have to get up and give her a price?), but she should learn how to talk to women if she wants to touch their lives (i believe that's why she was in Oprah, or can someone tell me whay was she there for?) instead of attacking them for no reason. Who is this woman anyway? Well i just read that she was in the show because of that article she wrote. Sorry, i don't know the whole story but still it annoys me the was she's expressing her feelings.
I did it again sorry... but i have been thinking about it for a while and cannot agree with the woman -not that i have to, but Conni said for example, that some people are reading too much into this so i wanted to add my bit- i just don't like the way she just assumes that things are the way she thinks. If she is talking about all or some new mothers i think it's wrong. If she' talking about her mother and baby group i think that is like she's attacking these women personally.
Ok that's it!
I just read another bit of her article and thought, "isn't she a good love measurer?" LOL
This is when she says "I love my husband more than I love my children".
And another one "Her eyes were close set, and she had her father's hooked nose. It looked better on him"
I mean come on! I know she loves her husband. but can't she set the issue aside for one moment, the moment her baby daughter was being born!!! I mean, intelligent people find there's a time for everything. This is the day her daughter was born, couldn't she stop and comtemplate the wonder of giving birth and the wonder of life? No, all she could think about was that she loved her daughter but that she was NOT in love with her, ah! and about her husband's hooked nose!!!LOL
It just makes me laugh really. Who is this woman?
This article leaves me feeling as usual a bit confused. I never considered loving one family member more than another. To me love is love. Do I love my mother more than my father? No. Do I love my dog more than my cat? No. Do I love one friend more than another? No.
Are there different degrees in relationships? Sure there are. This whole topic of loving one more than another seems a bit silly to me. I understand the basis of what she is saying about maintaining a loving relationship with our spouses, however, I could not imagine choosing my child over my husband or vice versa. They are both so deeply entwined in my heart that the thought of either one of them not being there anymore simply is not a possibility for me.
I agree with all those who have said that we must set the greatest example for our children by showing love and affection towards each other. If you missed the show yesterday, one woman made a good point about showing our children with too much attention, she said "Who wants to be around someone that thinks they are the centre of the universe". She's right, we need to set a balance in our relationships. Your husbands do need you as do your children just in different ways. Most people need love, attention, emotional support and physical stimulation. Remember the post by Anon whose husband did not show her any affection or make love to her? It simply devastated her.
We all need to be loved and part of being in a loving relationship is paying attention to each other and making each feel special and meeting each others needs. I need my husband, I need him to show me love, tenderness, respect, affection, sexual attention and I also need him to go out and earn a pay check so that I can stay at home and raise our family and maintain our home. We need each other. Relationships over the years change, they ebb and flow, they grow, they evolve into something different from what they were in the being. We must pay attention to our spouses or we risk losing that special bond that we cherish so much. But that doesn't mean we love our spouse more than our children, well for me it doesn't anyway. I love my family.
Ditto Heaventree.
Ok i won't get heated this time. I saw you ladies are showing more composure than me so i'll follow you
I'd like to quote Ame:
"My children - well I look at them and am overwhelmed by the love I have for them. My husband - well I look at him and am overwhelmed by the love I have for him.
I refuse to engage in her God Forbid game...I do believe that by loving my children I am expressing love for my husband".
I think you said it very well and i agree totally!
Maria.
Maria, I agree with you, and I think part of the reason I feel it's such a negative piece is Ms. Waldman's work is consistantly like that. She has a very condescending attitude, I've read other things she has written, and she's got an attitude of "I'm right, and the rest of you are crazy/stupid". This is JMHO of course, but I dislike her work all around, and feel she hit the mark here.
Thaks Crystal! Well i've never heard of her, but she sure does sound full of herself.
I guess I didn't read anything into this and I certainly didn't see any part of it as negative. I also didn't see this writer as full of herself, but that's JMO. I just took it as one woman's feelings about her children and her husband. I just happen to agree with her in the fact that nothing has changed about the love I have for my husband.
I didn't take her thoughts about women refocusing their love once a child is born negatively because I actually agree with her in some respects. LOTS of women I know feel that exact way...all of sudden they have no interest in their husbands, intimate times, together times, looking good for dh, doing anything romantic. Some have even said to me that they don't even need dh anymore now that they have a baby! Isn't that crazy?! These are educated, professional women who are older moms (in their 30's, not really young) who dated their dh's for a while and established themselves. I identified with this writer because I just personally know women like this. Women who think/live like once a baby comes they have absolutely no part of their 'old life'. I don't get it. It's just not me I guess.
I just thought this was a good article I could identify with in several ways. I don't personally choose my dd or dh as "loving them more"; I just know how I feel about both of them. And I don't feel badly for still being madly in love with dh and happy when dd goes to bed for the night. Everyone has their own feelings about their loved ones.
Maybe I have a different perspective since I saw this woman talking about her point of view on Oprah. Her biggest point was that this was all written in regards to the women that insist that their lack of sex life is all due to the stress of raising young children.
She says "There are agreed upon reasons for this bed death. They are exhausted. It still hurts. They are so physically available to their babies - nursing, carrying, stroking - how could they bear to be physically available to anyone else?" I know I've heard soooo many women on this board complain about these same things. I don't really understand where these women are coming from. If your child needed a hug or a cuddle before bed you wouldn't deny them day after day. You would feel like a terrible mother and worry about scarring them for life by witholding your affection. Yet, many women do this day after day with your husband and are then upset when he doesn't provide the things that you need like help with the children, the house or the finances. A relationship with your child is 90% about the child, what you do for them, what you provide for them and what makes them happy. Your marriage isn't like that. Any reward you get from being a mom isn't given to you by your child. The majority of the time, children are selfish creatures and expect life to revolve around them. It is one of our responsibilities as their parent to teach them to compromise and understand the benefits of putting others first occasionally. If you give in whatever way your dh needs (sex, affection, a desire to know what happens at work) they are going to be more receptive to what you need (a back rub before sex, a helping hand with the dishes or taking over baths while you have a half hour of your own time). If you don't take care of you and your need for adult interaction, how can you be the best mother for your children?
So many women look at being a mother as all they are. They are no longer So and so's wife or this person's friend. They are their darling's mom. They concentrate on where their child wants to go for the day, when he or she wants to eat, which class is going to best prepare their child for preschool. Your marriage is for life. Your children will only be around for so many years and then you are secondary to them for the rest of both of your lives. And that's the way it should be. Kids need to learn that life isn't all about them. I really don't think we are doing anyone any favors by making our kids the center of our lives. No one else is going to let their life revolve around them as they grow up. School won't, most jobs won't and most friendships don't work that way. My kids are important to me, I love them more than life itself but they aren't my support system, my best friends or my life partners. My husband is and he deserves to feel that way all the time, not just when my kids are raised and I have nothing better to do with my time.
OK, Tink, I saw the show too and I agree with you! However, I have a question for you...
I give my dh alot of adult time... and I will leave it at that. But he doesnt do the dishes or take care of kids.  sniff sniff What am I doing wrong? How do I get my dh too scrub the toilets? rofl
Tink I totally agree with you about how many women view themselves after babies.
Conni- I think lots of men just simply don't think it's their job, whether mom has a job outside of the home or not. There aren't very many men (IMO and in my experience) that take the job of the home and the kids 50/50. It seems that most men think they work and that's enough, again, even if mom works, too. I'm fortunate that my dh and I view everything about our relationship as 50/50 - from changing diapers to fixing the sink to fixing dinner. BUT I think he's rare. And I wouldn't have married him if we didn't see that eye to eye right from the beginning. I'm a major feminist so I was very picky!!!!
I think to get your dh to scrub the toilets (LOL) YOU stop scrubbing them. Period.
Most men I know won't scrub a toilet no matter how long you let it go or how grungy it gets. I ASK him to. I usually offer an option. The kids need a bath and the kitchen needs to be cleaned up after dinner. Which do you want? Since playing in the tub with the kids is fun, he usually chooses that. But I turn the radio up and get the kitchen clean in half the bathtime and sit on the couch and read or go online and look at blogs. If I've had a tough day with the kids, I tell him, without whining, that I really need half an hour of quiet and will he start defrosting the chicken for dinner. Honestly, my dh was out of work for almost a year and he was a SAHD and that helped him see how tough my job is. But, occasionally, he still pouts about me needing something from him. Yeah, it makes me a little angry but we both get over it. Most men tend to compartmentalize so when they are off work, it must be playtime. My dh needs a reminder so I've learned to remind him, sometimes over and over. After several years, we seem to have reached a fair balance.
Sounds like another way for mothers to fight or feel superior like Bobbie said.
Work at home vs Stay at Home
Love my husband more vs Love my kids more.
My DH will scrub toilets! LOL! He will load the dishwasher, too, and sometimes do laundry. Changing diapers and baths were pretty much my domain and new sheets on the bed is pretty much my domain.
Although, would I really want to sleep in the bed, after my husband put sheets on? No way. He would never be as careful as I am! LOL!
I liked your post too, Bobbie.
Feona, that is exactly what it is about... If it was a written to empower women she is WAY of base. Claiming to own the magic key to marital happiness is nonsense, NO one owns anyone else's key.. We all draw our happiness from different places. Thus, there is no universal path to go down and honestly no true answers except with in ourselves. Instead of telling us what we have done wrong, they need to start telling us how to heal ourselves/empower ourselves/ lift each other UP and see our own beauty and talents in spite of our short comings. Women have fought for centuries for things that they don't want all because they have been told that they can't have them. We are hurting ourselves and then we turn around and hurt each other. I think it is all nonsense. I don't think this women is way off base for herself (even possibly for others) but I do think putting it out there as this is the way to deal with a marriage is wrong. Things like this miss inform young wives about marriage and what to expect. Which creates more heart ache in them and more/further marital issues....
By the way, I don't care if my DH scrubs the toilet or not and it doesn't do a think for me if he does, does that make me wrong???? Heck no, it just means I don't mind scrubbing the toilet..
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