I am not too familiar with this sort of thing, when you work for a big company in the civilan world, say a communications company for example is there some unspoken agreement that companies would not try and recruit employees from other companies? Okay maybe that I could see but say you express to your company that after two years on shift work that you need to pursue finding a day job, and they tell you that you are a valued employee and will do all that they can to get you into a day position, and supposing it didnt work out, do you need to ask for permission to look into pursuing other companies since your company can't get the day job that you need for the benefit of you and your family? I have never heard of such a thing. And if you don't go through these steps you may hurt your reputation with your current company? My dh works for a communications company aboard a military base along with several other companies this is his first civilan job after retiring from the military, he makes a nice yearly income, with shifts that run three months long on one particuliar shift, he has worked his job for two years. He had recently applied for a GS-13 position which is a day position, and many of the same benefits that he currently has go along with it. He told his company in person that he was applying and why, they asked what they could do to get him to stay, and he told them a day position, the boss said that he would ask a few influential people both of which my dh is friends with and socializes with outside of work that are higher up than he is,( boss doesn't know that dh is friendly with these gentlemen) and see what they say and can come up with. Also the boss says that he has a few "silver bullets" that he can use and a few favors that people owe him that he can collect on and possibly pull a few strings for dh. In dh's company people have been leaving for greener pastures, and they don't seem to be in a rush to replace these people. Dh says what if his said company tells him that they will get him a position in six months, I don't trust that, especially due to the fact that I just stated, people are leaving, and if there aren't any openings and they are not replacing these people just what is going to be any different in six months? I realize alot of people have to work shift work, but it is wearing thin on our family, last summer we couldn't do anything because dh was working 3-11. We couldn't make plans to do things, turned down invitations, and bbq's were minimal. Now we are on the 11-7am shift, that shift is the hardest especially for dh. Back to my original question, do you really have to ask "permission" to pursue other companies without fear of retribution, especially if said company can't come through? As far as the GS position goes, dh has a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science and has a good chance of being picked due to the lack of alot of others not having degrees. I just don't know what to think and it just seems crazy to have to do that. I really hope something happens, I am tired of having to do all after school activities, and sports with my ds by myself, we did that for twenty years in the military and it's been enough. Sorry I am rambling but I just needed to vent... Thanks everyone...

By Hol on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 - 09:52 pm:

I have never heard of such a rule. It has always been my understanding that most employment is "at will", which means that EITHER party can terminate employment, unless there is a contract. Even then, a contract can be broken, but then there is usually something to be paid back (like tuition reimbursement, for instance), or in the case of the employer breaking the contract, then a severance package is due the employee. (I just went to work for a human resource consulting firm and I am learning this stuff. )

Your DH has asked, in good faith, to be placed on a day shift, and was told that they would try to accomodate him. If, after a reasonable amount of time has passed, no change has transpired, I would think that he is free to move on. I wouldn't worry about a bad reference, either. Former employers are very wary to give bad references today, for fear of litigation. And, if your DH is a good worker (which it sounds like he is), what negative thing CAN they say... that he left for a day position?

The pay and benefits for a GS-13 is very decent (I have been around military bases all of my adult life). It sounds like he has a good shot at the job, with his degree. Also, the company that he is with now doesn't seem like a real upward moving company if they don't replace workers who have left.

I'd say go for it!

By Crystal915 on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 - 09:54 pm:

Well, it's a tricky situation. Everyone has free right to persue other options, unless they've signed a contract saying they will not work for a competitor for X number of years after leaving company 1. However, most states are "right to work" states, meaning they can fire you for no particular reason, and there isn't much you can do about it. For example, I work for a customer service business, and my current contract is with a major cell company. I cannot work for any competitor while employed at my current job, and have signed proprietary information/confidentiality papers. However, they can fire me at any time, because we're not a union, and KS is a RTW state. I'd say your DH should look for another position, quietly. Good luck!!

By Ginny~moderator on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 - 10:08 pm:

No, you don't usually have to ask your employer's permission to seek a job with another company. I left my former employer after spending 2 months talking to prospective new employers, and the first they knew was when I gave my two weeks notice. My son did the same when he switched from his last job to his present job. Another son, who is an attorney, gave 6 weeks notice when he changed jobs, but that's a different kind of position. However, if your dh has a written, personal contract with his company, he should look at it. I don't know what kind of position he has, but some jobs have contracts that require long notice, and some have "non-compete" clauses that, if you are important enough in the company, if you leave you can't work for a similar company within a certain distance. I think, though, that if your dh is on shift work, he is probably not in that category. (If your dh does have a written contract, it is worth paying a lawyer for an hour's time to look at it and help your dh understand his obligations and any restrictions that are in it.)

What he should do when he talks to a prospective new employer, is tell them that they cannot contact his present employer about references until after they make him a firm offer that is only dependant on having a good record at his present job, because he has not told his present employer that he is interviewing. He should tell them that he can give references from people who are not with his present employer - I am assuming he can do this. He should also pull together his evaluations if they are good ones, and have copies available to show to prospective new employers. But if he has already been offered (or almost offered) a position that is day shift and similar benefits, etc., he should go back to those people and ask them if they are willing to make him a firm offer.

I agree that you are right to be suspicious that people are leaving and not being replaced. Sounds like your dh's employer may be doing the old "restructuring" thing to look good on Wall Street - which basically means using fewer people to do the same work and overworking the people they keep. And if the shift schedules are for 3 month periods, why would it take 6 months to get your dh on a day shift? Seniority might play into it, but if he is good enough that they want to keep him they ought to be able to move faster than that.

I am guessing - if your dh was in the military for 20 years, does he have a pension? That should give you a bit of financial ease.

But back to your question - no, unless you have a contract with your present employer you have no obligation to get their permission to leave and no obligation to tell them you are thinking about leaving other than to give 2-4 weeks notice. And the reason you give notice is because a few years down the road, if a possible better job comes up, you don't want the former employer bad-mouthing by saying "he quit without notice".

Your dh's employer has no obligation to tell him if they are planning to hire someone to take his job, or even to give him notice if they want to fire him or lay him off - unless he is union or has a contract. And that is a two-way street - your dh, similarly, has no obligation unless he has a contract.

I suspect it is difficult to change from career military - where everything is laid out in the table of organization and in the rules, and you know exactly where you stand - to civilian life, where things are a lot more flexible and less secure and less certain. Your dh might talk with some of his neighbors or his buddies who don't work at the same company and talk with them about what they do when they want to change jobs.

By Anonymous on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 - 12:48 pm:

Ginny, Hol, and Crystal, thank you so much and it has cleared up quite a bit for me, I will let all of you know what happens in the near future! I am so grateful for everyone at Momsview!!

By Cocoabutter on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 - 04:12 pm:

I would also stress, as Ginny mentioned, that our dh should keep quiet about looking for another employer. I have known 2 different guys who, upon telling their employers that they were looking for another job, were fired immediately. (No contracts or union were involved.) Apparently, some employers can't handle it when they are told that their employees aren't happy.

By Debbie on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 - 09:41 pm:

Ditto, Ginny.

Your dh does not need to tell his current employer he is looking for another job. And, I wouldn't if I were him. He just needs to tell the company that he is interviewing with, that he has not told his current employer he is leaving. I am sure the person interviewing will ask him his reason for leaving, he just needs to tell them he doesn't want to work nights anymore, and his current job can't provide that. If the new company wants to hire him, then they will probably make an offer contingent on his previous employment checking out. Only then, if he accepts the job, will they call his current employer.

The only time I have ever heard of talking with your boss before looking for another job, is if it is a job within the company you are already working for. Then it is common courtesy because your current boss will obviously find out you are looking.

By Hol on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 - 11:18 pm:

Ditto, Debbie.