Natalie had her first field trip in Pre-K last week. I told her teacher beforehand that I would be taking Natalie myself, but I knew they had at least one church van to transport kids in as well. I assumed that the van would work the way our previous school had in our old town - parents provided their carseat or booster on the day of the trip.

Nope.

First, there were 6 mom volunteers total. All the mothers rode in the church vans except me, along with their children. So, of course and as expected, I was the only mom taking her own child on the trip. This didn't bother me, I expected it, because we are overprotective and this isn't news to me. Fine. Natalie was interested in riding in the vans though, and I did tell her that I would look into it but I wasn't making any promises.

At the end of the trip, I just visually checked out the situation in the vans. I thought that they got the kids loaded really quickly, with 7 or so in each van, plus the moms.

No carseats, no boosters. Just regular seatbelts. A)That seals the deal for us and we will not be using the church van this year, and B)Is this legal?? Why are other parents allowing their children to ride this way?

I'm not sure if I'm naive, or just so over-the-top protective. Natalie is still in a carseat, and will be for quite some time. That's just our choice.

Thoughts? I was very surprised. I plan to ask the teacher about it when I get a chance, just out of curiosity.

By Tayjar on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 05:09 pm:

In Illinois, it's not legal unless it's a school bus. Pretty irresponsible of the church. Not only is it endangering the children, but it is a huge amount of liability for the church and the drivers if there is an accident.

By Vicki on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 05:59 pm:

What are the legal requirements in your state? If they didn't break any laws, I don't think I would take it upon yourself to pass any judgements on the school or the parents. If legally, they did nothing wrong.

However, if it is against the law, I would certainly bring it up to the school if for no other reason to point out their legal obligations if something were to happen.

By Trina~moderator on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 06:06 pm:

What state are you in? Your profile says IN, but didn't you move recently? According to the web site below, what they are doing is illegal in IN, but regardless of state laws, you are correct to be concerned because what they are doing is very unsafe! To echo Tayjar, not only are they endangering the children, but taking a huge risk liability wise as well.

State Child Restraint Laws

By Mrsheidi on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

i think the parents need to be more diligent in that regard, imho. i'm VERY picky about having connor is his carseat. we never borrow seats and i've never let him ride in someone's car without it. (i even install it myself because i trust no one.) i've even forgot to install his seat one time when scott and i traded cars and i drove all the way back home to pick it up so i could take him home safely from school. the teachers thought i was crazy.
i really wish people would educate themselves on this stuff!!

By Trina~moderator on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 07:21 pm:

As a former Child Passenger Safety Tech, I must say that I'm so proud of all you car seat savvy mommies!

By Rayelle on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 07:23 pm:

They just changed the laws here that a child has to remain in a booster until they are 8 years old.

By Marcia on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 - 09:30 pm:

Deanna, I don't blame you at all. I always drove my kids on their trips when they were younger. Once in a while I took the bus with them, but I usually chose to drive. You can never be too safe!

By Lovinmama32 on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 11:59 am:

When my dd was in daycare I would attend all the field trips. I was appalled the first time when we went and they kids all had car seats that were put into the vans, but the teachers had NO clue how to install them. When I put my kids' seats in they are in tight and firm, just the way they are supposed to be. Some of the kids were leaning over on turns because the seats weren't in right. I took it upon myself to be the car seat helper and I'd get as many seats in correctly as I could. Don't feel that you are being over protective. You aren't. Child seat laws are there for a reason. I never understood why they are different in different states.

By Reds9298 on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 12:25 pm:

I'm still in IN, and I knew that was against the law here, but I wondered if there was some loophole since it's a "school".

Heidi- I would have done the same thing!! My parents have a car seat and we installed it for them. (Also at their request, since they wanted it to be right) It's very, very snug as well.

I have a feeling we'll be standing in a line alone for a long time to come! (While all the others are riding in the bus, van, etc.) My kid was still rear-facing until she was almost 2, and I was getting laughed at by my friends then. LOL

I'm going to talk with the teacher about it today, just because. I'm not understanding how the parents riding with the kids weren't concerned...at least for a booster seat if not a carseat. I feel like many of the kids in her class are actually smaller than DD is. She's kind of big for a girl, and most people think she's older than she is because of it. Most of the kids are smaller, which seems like an even greater risk to me.

"Overprotective" moms unite!

By Dawnk777 on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 02:32 pm:

When Sarah was about 10 months old, my car needed some servicing and it took a few days (waiting for a part, maybe? I don't remember.) Anyway, Gary worked in the same town, so I had a co-worker drive me to his car. Then I went back to the hospital daycare to pick up Sarah and go home. One of my childless coworkers thought I was being silly and thought I could just pick up Sarah and go home, without a carseat. Uh, no. It was worth the extra time that it took, to go back to the daycare, with a carseat in the car, to make sure she was safe.

I have no idea if that coworker is married now, with kids of her own, but I wasn't going to endanger Sarah's life, to just save a few minutes in time.

By Trina~moderator on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 11:35 am:

Deanna, did you talk with the school? I'm curious how this turns out. BTW, there is nothing "over protective" about making sure kids are properly restrained in vehicles.

By Reds9298 on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 01:47 pm:

I wasn't able to speak with the teacher on Wednesday, so I played dumb in my email to her and asked her if the kids have booster seats in the church van.

She replied that "No, they are buckled tightly into seat belts." She's actually the assistant director. This is a LARGE preschool of almost 300 students, with a long history in this town and a really great reputation. I have been very happy with everything so far, from the organization, to the director, to the classrooms, and mostly impressed with the teaching staff in general. I honestly can't believe they get by with it, and that no one has voiced concerns.

I'm helping in the classroom on Monday, but as a sub assistant since the teacher has to be out that day. I'm anxious to ask further about it, but I didn't want to do that by email either.

Natalie will just have to be sad all year because she will not be in the church van. I'm a little afraid that if I bring this up it will cause field trips to be canceled??? I really don't know. How can NO ONE be seeing this or understanding there's not proper restraints in the vehicles? It's a huge school! There were at least 5 other mothers riding IN the vans that day. No one was bothered by a 35lb 4 year old being in a regular seat belt? We have field trips coming up next week and the following week as well.

DH says forget about it because our DD won't be riding in them anyway, but I don't think I can.

Trina- Also, this is the school who is downtown, so there is very limited parking. Nothing even remotely close to what they would need for the population. As a result, there's a police-ordered drop-off/pick-up procedure. They encourage everyone to follow it, and to no "walk-in" for pick-up/drop-off. I inquired before we started there and told them I had no interest in that procedure, and if that was a REQUIREMENT, I needed to know in advance so that we could go elsewhere. They said they encourage parents to do it, but walking in was fine. So we walk in- just our personal preference for various reasons. Anyway, the real question to you is this....They requested at orientation that children learn how to put themselves in their carseats/boosters, so the drop-off line would run more quickly. ?????????? Am I nuts for thinking that's crazy? I really don't want my 4 yr old responsible for making sure she's securely fastened in her carseat without someone checking her. They said that "the kids should really know how to do that by themselves if they don't already." Is that normal? Do other kids this age put themselves in their seats??

Dawn...my in-laws would stick Natalie in the car without a seat in a heartbeat. She would cry and scream and they would never get by with it (because I've told her over and over and she knows!) but they would certainly try. They don't think carseats are even needed, but that's another thread.

By Tayjar on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 02:03 pm:

It looks like there is a loophole. Since it is a church and the van holds more than 9 people, they can use seatbelts.

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2004/HE/HE1098.1.html

By Kate on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 02:13 pm:

Hmmmm....buckled tightly into vehicle seatbelts meant for adult frames that are going to damage their abdominal organs and and crush their throat in an accident? Or do they put the shoulder belt behind their back so that in an accident not only will their neck and spine and head be severely injured, but their entire upper body will be thrown about into the bodies and heads of those sitting beside them, thus injuring those seatmates? Their lack of concern and their ignorance would really worry me in general. How well are they supervised on the playground?? Are dangerous items like cleaning chemicals locked up? Do they make parents send in a note if someone else if picking the child up, and then make that person show photo ID? Isn't it hard to check identities from the curb anyway??

I'm sorry, they may have a great reputation and classrooms and teaching staff, but their obvious flaw here would make me too nervous to ever relax about putting my child in their care every week.

By Trina~moderator on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 03:23 pm:

Regardless of what the laws are, the laws of physics will always over ride the laws of man.

My own kids weren't capable of properly buckling themselves in until 7 or 8. Even then, they didn't get it right sometimes. I agree that it's crazy to expect preschoolers to buckle themselves in just for the sake of a quick pickup line.

By Tayjar on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 04:03 pm:

Gee, many of them can't tie their shoes yet but are expected to know how to buckle themselves in?

My kids climbed into their seats at that age and attempted to buckle themselves in but didn't really have the strength or coordination to do it correctly.

By Reds9298 on Friday, October 3, 2008 - 04:54 pm:

Kate- Yes! Buckled in tightly? I'm thinking "WHAT?!" They are sooo organized about everything, which is why I really can't believe this is happening! The drop-off/pick-up is RIGID...I feel so safe about it and that no one else will be able to pick up my kid except for us. I've observed play on the playground while sitting in my car (no one knew I was there, it's right before they go home), and I thought the teachers were very observant and everything seemed to be going as it should. The drop off/pick up line procedure is to use a "car card". Each class is labeled with a symbol (apple, fish, etc.) Each parent gets 2 laminated large "car cards" with the child's first/last name, as well as that symbol. The car card is posted in the window of the car. No child can be picked up without a car card, even 'walkers'. I was there for one parent who was a walker who didn't have his car card, and they didn't let the child go without calling the parents first. From the car line, there are walkie-talkies everywhere and a very organized procedure of calling for the child through the speaker, teacher gets them from the gym 'holding area', and escorts them to the car. (About 6 feet) Even the teacher who deals with walkers like us is way too particular. She refuses to let Natalie NOT hold her hand to walk to me, about 6 feet, INSIDE the church. But oh well, I can't complain about it I guess. She just grabs Nat's hand like it's the end of the world and we're outside at a busy intersection and she's about to run into it!

Anyway, it appears there may be a loophole, which would explain it. Doesn't excuse it, but explains how they are doing it.Thanks for that link. I will still ask the teacher about it further on Monday. I'm VERY particular about preschool, and anything that we are involved in. I help in the classrom at least 5x/month, if not more. I feel I've observed just about everything there, and this is honestly the first thing I've seen that sent up a red flag, and I'm so surprised about it!