Experience with Homeowner's Associations? Help!
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Experience with Homeowner's Associations? Help!
The home we're planning to buy is in a subdivision with a Homeowner's Association. We received the bylaws, covenants, etc. today to review, a contingency upon finalizing our purchase agreement.
The subdivision sits on a small lake, has a playground, tennis courts, basketball courts, paddleboats, and a swimming beach and clubhouse available. The dues are $275/year.
After reading the bylaws, I'm not too sure. We currently live on our own in the country and no one is telling u s what to do. This is a country subdivision without a doubt, way out, very private. Maybe 50 homes tops I'm guessing.
The bylaws say that you have to have EVERYTHING approved...if you want to put up a light fixture outside, your recreational vehicles can't sit outside, your trash dumpster can't be seen, any structural additions have to be approved (which we wouldn't have any since a shed is already there). PETS are supposed to be approved for heaven's sake, and should "not be left outside". It also states that they should be fenced or kept inside. No above ground swimming pools.
That brings me to the next point - we would be putting up a fence within 3 months after moving in, for our pets. We've always had a fence just for pets. It doesn't mention fences in-particular, but does say that structural improvements have to be approved. I contacted the head of the "Architectural Committee" (please) to share our fencing thoughts. He told us that chain link is not what they want. We would like to upgrade to vinyl, but quite honestly it's VERY expensive and I'm not sure it's the height we want since we do not want a privacy fence at all. We will just have to see what we think is best for our property and our budget once we move in. I made no bones about this to the Architectural guy. He informed me that if we go with chain link we just would have unhappy neighbors. It wasn't the most pleasant conversation I've ever had. Then I get the bylaws in the mail today and I have a worse feeling about it.
I don't like people telling me what to do on any given day, let alone what to do with the property that our money is buying. I'm not sure really what the 'culture' of the neighborhood is, you know? The one person I've spoken to, this guy, wasn't that great. Will people be walking around whispering if the trash dumpster isn't brought in quickly enough. Currently we keep our dumpster just outside the garage on the side of the house, but apparently I can't do this here?
What are your experiences with homeowner's associations? I really want this house, but I don't want to be 'watched'. A huge part of the reason we live and like living in the country is that we do whatever we want on our property. I'm wondering now if this is the best place for us! We have to decide quickly. I think we have 5 days from the date of receiving the bylaws (today) to get out of the purchase agreement.
I think if you have any reservations, I would be seriously rethinking it. Homeowners associations can be both fantastic and a nightmare. It really does help to keep the neighborhood "up" and therefore, helps everyones home values. I think it can be very do-able, you just have to change your thinking (if your so inclined) They don't say you can't have a fence, it just needs to be one of a few different kinds. It helps keep everyone in check and all the properties looking nice. I am actually surprised it doesn't say no chain link fences, that is not uncommon for associations around here.
If you are going to have a problem conforming to the guidelines, I wouldn't buy the house to be quite honest with you. You could really run into problems if you don't go with the flow of the plan!
Our last three homes are in home owners assoc. Our first house was not. Each one is a bit different in how strict they are. I love them. It keeps people from parking crappy working on cars in the driveway. It keeps rv's and boats from sitting all year in a driveway (which obstructs views). Overall to me it keeps the neighborhood nicer looking. The one that we didn't have a HOA our neighbor wanted to paint their house, they did. She chose that florescent pool green. REALLY! That is what we got to see from our yard for the next 2 years. Some people just have no taste. So getting things approved really is just a sounding board for common sense.
With your fence, did he say no you couldn't, or just people would be unhappy? We have a strict no chain link fence rule here and the last place. The reason why, they get rusty and people "decorate" them with solo cups. It just really can look tacky.
In our neighborhood now everyone has the big privacy fences. In our last neighborhood that just wasn't how it all looked. What we did about our dogs was one of those invisible fences. Our dog was 8 and took to it very easily. We bought the kind that beeped before they got shocked (they wear a collar, so no danger to natalie). So our dog never got shocked, she learned her boundries well.
We don't have a leave your dog outside rule here and I wish we did! I have two neighbors whose dogs are out 24/7. One just barks and barks and barks, if anything is near. So my dogs go to pee, it is crazy, Makes it really hard to nap during the day. The other dog is bored it keeps escaping and the owners joke about how smart their dog is...uh no...you suck as a dog owner.
Anyway, I think they are good, a little nusiance for a big help.
I think they are good also, I just don't like being told what to do!  On the other hand, there's really nothing they are restricting that we don't already do anyway. We don't keep our dogs out or ever let them out of the yard without a leash, If they bark we bring them in, our vehicles are always in the garage, and we don't want an above ground swimming pool. I talked with DH about it and quite honestly, we're not even going for approval of the fence. There are already 3 in the neighborhood, which did not obtain approval. We may very well go with the vinyl, which is our first choice, but all the research hasn't been done yet on our part. I understand the idea about chain link fencing, but honestly we've had one for 9 years and it looks brand new. We also maintain it and there's never a weed growing around it for more than a day, but we're particular about our yard in general. When I see really rusty gross ones, I always wonder about them. My parents' fence is 30 years old and looks great, so I never get why the rust when I see those.
Kaye- There is NOTHING in the bylaws stating anything about fencing at all. Just 'structural' changes needing to be approved. I said, "So chain link fencing isn't allowed?" and he said, "Well, we don't like it" and then later "You might just have unhappy neighbors". I do understand that some HOA's don't allow chain link at all, and I see why in general. This one doesn't mention fencing at all.
Dh thinks it's no big deal since we don't do any of it anyway. We'll put up the fence we want, whatever that might be, and be done with it.
Kaye- Electronic fencing is great, but it doesn't keep anything *out* of the yard. Also, we have Jack Russell Terriers who hunt daily literally anything that comes in the yard (and that's with a fence). NOTHING stops them when they are hunting, regardless of the shock! LOL I feel very comfortable with fencing around the yard, you know? I've always had a fence, so maybe that's why.
The current homeowner's told us before we wrote the offer that fencing isn't an issue and that there is fencing in the neighborhood (mostly wood and mostly really run down privacy fencing which looks so bad IMO) and a few chain link. Nothing vinyl or decorative at this point anyway. We would probably have the nicest fence in the neighborhood!! LOL
Thanks guys...after talking to DH I'm feeling better about it. It is going to be a change having neighbors in general, even if they aren't as close as usual in a subdivision. I'm the little old lady that doesn't like neighbors, so honestly HOA's *should* be right up my alley!
I think you should really check out the fence question. Talk to the people who already have fences and find out whether they had to get permission, or just put them in.
I agree with you about the electronic fences - especially with Jack Russells. I rescued a dog recently who lived in a house with electronic fencing. The problem was, the dog would jump "through" the electronic fencing to get out of the yard when he was excited, but then wouldn't go back in. When I found him he had just finished crossing a very busy street and was dancing around a gas station. When the owner came to pick him up, turns out Bailey had been running loose for several hours (and not for the first time), and a couple of other people had tried to "rescue" him. The owner said "I don't know why he doesn't stay inside the electronic fence." Scott's comment to me later was - duh, it doesn't matter why, if you don't want a dead dog get a real fence. A shame, really - he was a very nice dog, young and active and very playful. Their other dog, who never goes through the electronic fence, is 10 years old, and they don't understand why Bailey doesn't act the same way. Which is all off topic.
I would suggest you have a lawyer look over the homeowners' association bylaws/rules before you sign the purchase agreement, so that you know exactly what you are getting into. And that if you buy, you attend the association meetings faithfully and consider getting on the board, so that you don't get blindsided or surprised. One thing to think about - if homeowner association dues are for maintenance, what happens if some houses in the development go into foreclosure? Will the association maintain the lawns and exterior, and could this increase your dues? Who does the maintenance these fees are supposed to pay for - do the playground, basketball courts, etc., look well maintained? Another question - can you bring guests to the beach, playground, basketball courts, etc.?
If you aren't happy with the covenants or bylaws, I wouldn't buy there. If you don't want anyone to tell you what to do, then don't buy in a neighborhood with a homeowner's association. The bylaws are in place to keep the integrity of the neighborhood at a certain level. They are in place for a reason, usually to maintain property values. You will probably make a lot of people angry if you don't follow the rules. Putting up a fence without approval, when you know it is needed, is not going to start you off on the right foot with neighbors. When you sign off on the bylaws, it means you understand them, and will follow them. I am just being honest, I would not be happy if you moved in and did this in my neighborhood. And yes your neighbors will probably talk about you if you move in and right away break the rules they have set for the neighborhood. So, I would make sure you can put up the fence you want before you buy. And, I would get approval before you do. JMHO
Deanna, my friend lives in a neighborhood where the homeowners association nit picks every single thing anyone does. It really is up to the Association as to whether or not they actually enforce all the bylaws/convenants, etc. My X-boss lives in the same neighborhood, and was involved in a lawsuit with the Association for over 2 years regarding a storage buildling he had built for him in his back yard - it matched the house, etc. but they picked and picked and wanted it raised, then wanted the pitch of the roof changed, etc. For heaven's sakes, it was in his BACK yard, but they were apparently within their rights. I have another friend who just moved out of the same neighborhood and has told me other horror stories about their Association.
My advice to you would be if you have problems with enforcement of anything what is stated in the bylaws, don't move in there.
I love HOA's...they're pretty flexible, actually. You'd be surprised what they will approve. It also maintains the value of your home more, imho. I would just settle in, take the dog out with a leash for a bit, then have a fence approved and put in. I would also try to match your adjoining neighbor's fences if you can. That also keeps the value!
Good luck! Did you post pictures yet??
The neighbor on one side has a partially fenced yard, just around their in-ground pool. It's a wooden privacy fence that is pretty ratty looking and needs maintenance. The other neighbor does not have a fence.
I appreciate everyone's honesty. The HOA document is from 1977. We were told by the current homeowner's that the bylaws don't restrict fencing and that you are just supposed to get it approved but that it didn't matter much. I was given the number of the guy at the 'arch. committee' to speak with him. He said "we just don't want wire fencing because of property values". Me: "So chain link fencing is not allowed?" Him: "We just don't like it."
Then I recieved the actual document to review. It does not mention fencing at all in the document other than to say that if you have pets they need to be inside or fenced. It just states that buildings or structural changes need to be approved. When I mentioned to this guy that there are other chain link fences in the neighborhood, he negatively said, "Yes...those people just put up their fences without approval."
Again...I'm not sure what fence we will get. If I *want* to spend $3K on a vinyl fence because I like it the best, serves the best purpose, etc. -great. But I don't want to HAVE to put up that fence, you know? So I'm evaluating what that means. Most neighborhoods have HOA's, I know - some enforce, some do not. When we were there, there were a few people at the beach with their dogs off the leash. That's actually stated in the bylaws that "it's not allowed", but it was happening. I'm sure the dog is going to do his business around that area at some point while he's there with the family, no?
The other 'rules' bug me, just because I'm me, but honestly we don't have a problem following any of them. And we may not have a problem with this one. I just don't know at this point. I'm trying to think of being a conformist....oh boy, I've rarely done that. I keep telling myself that this is what 'neighborhood' people do, they conform. Precisely the reason I don't like neighborhoods. I know, I'm moving into one, but the layout is much different than what I'm used to seeing, so we're making an exception because there are so many positives and we're getting a lot for our $.
Heidi- I'll get pics next week at inspection and post then!
I appreciate the honesty from all of you.
I think of HOAs as enforcement of rules that the police or local law enforcement won't touch but that will affect your quality of life. With a HOA in place every neighbor knows what is expected of him or her. My question is what happens if you don't follow their rules? What are they going to do? Kick you our of your house? Make you tear down your fence? Take you to court? What kind of "teeth" does this organization really have?
Ame
I have heard stories of many people being taken to court and to be honest, most of the stories I hear, the association wins hands down. People are made aware of the rules and sign a paper that they understand them and will follow them. Most of the time, people don't have a leg to stand on. It ends up being court ordered to take down what is not up to their codes and replace it with what is.
There is nothing to sign saying that we agree with the bylaws and will abide by them. If I hadn't asked for them (just because the fees were high) I wouldn't have gotten them until after we moved in the house. Or if we hadn't thought to ask about fencing, I would have never received them I'm quite sure.
Dh thinks I'm being too dramatic and knows that none of this really affects us since we don't do any of it anyway. There's a home at the end of "our" street with a (literally) royal blue roof. ?????? And I'm concerned about a fence? Seriously. That could NEVER have been approved by anyone but the homeowner who must have had one too many when he/she picked that out!
I think I'm being a bit dramatic as well. (There's a surprise. ) Honestly we don't have a problem with any of the things stated in the by laws. We do all of it anyway. And we really *don't* plan on a chain link fence, just wanted the option I guess. That's probably just being stubborn though.
Ginny- The common areas are well maintained, and guests are allowed. We met one resident at the beach who went on about loving the neighborhood and living there.
Ame- I think according to the bylaws they could make you remove the structure (if I remember, it's not in front of me), but they aren't doing that with anyone else. This guy mentioned the sheds that have been put up that he doesn't like, and the chain link fences, so they don't do too much to you except "not like it".
I personally would NEVER move to an area that watches my every move. I believe that it is YOUR property, paid for by YOU, and unless what you want to do on your property affects the quality of life for your neighbours, then I think that you should be able to do it.
We live in a very rural area where everyone has a lot of land around them, a great deal of it wooded. Because I do live in the country, people around me have horses, cows, goats, chickens, etc., and lots of dogs and cats as well. I LOVE waking up to the sound of a rooster crowing. If you have a boat or RV (we have neither), you can park it on your property. (Where else CAN you park it?) People with small children pitch tents in their yard in the summer for their kids to play in. They have swing sets and jungle gyms. Lots of them have above ground swimming pools. We have outdoor sheds to keep all of the equipment that goes with rural living. We all still hang our laundry outside on clothelines. We feed the birds and squirrels, so we have many bird feeders. People work on their cars in their driveways. And yes, (HORRORS), sometimes our garbage cans and recycling boxes are in view on the side of the house! I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
Yes, we do have a few people on the road that march to their own drummer, and it can be unsightly. We have one family that has every toy their children own in the front yard. And, recently, their large screen TV must have died because it is in the front yard, as well. I told DH that it must be "family movie night". ha ha! Fortunately, those types of families are few and far between. However, they are very nice, kind people and would be there for you in heartbeat. My DS's car broke down on the road one day, and one of the ownwers of one of the newer homes in the area passed him right by and din't ask if he needed help. Another of these type of people had a raging fit because a neighbour's horse got out and was on her front lawn. She was screaming at the animal control officer. The officer had to tell her daughter to ask her Mom to calm down. For Pete's sake! If you don't want things like that to happen, don't move to the country!
I believe in live and let live. A few years ago, a neighbour down the road wanted to double the size of his house by putting an addition on the back. The town sent all abutting landowners letters advising us of a hearing in case we had any objections. However, it couldn't be personal. You had to show how his addition would adversely affect your property. No one objected.
I realize that it is each to their own. Some people like to have uniform standards, and it does help to keep a neighbourhood from getting run down. However, I am too much of a free spirit to live like that. We have friends in Omaha who have to get permission to put up a different mailbox! That's not for me.
I think that you might be getting into a situation that you will regret. I would really rethink that, if I were you.
Hol the difference is, most areas with an HOA has houses pretty close together. So if you are parking your rv and your boat in your driveway, you can't see your kids walk down the sidewalk, or you have your sidewalk blocked so then they have to go into the street. We live in a town that has abductions, the clearer the streets are, the better everyone can watch for everyone.
I grew up in the country, but when your nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away you can have whatever wildlife you wanted. If my neighbors got chickens in their back yard, it would be a nuisence to me. I am far from anal, so we live in a n'hood with pretty lax rules. But yard maintance is expected, trash in the yard is not allowed. When you have ugly things that aren't maintained the critters come in. I don't want rats, snakes, alligators, etc.
Also for us, to have an HOA means we have access to a pool, tennis courts, parks, and bike/walking trails. All which are meticulously maintained. Outside my house we have have a green spot (I am in a horseshoe street), which has a park bench and several climbng trees. This is mowed at least weekly, the trees are trimmed properly and it is a great place for all the kids to hang out. When we first moved here and all the kids were young, we would look out sometimes and see no fewer than 20 kids out there in the trees.
I guess I learned a long time ago that really an HOA doesn't have too much power (we elect the people who run it). They mail out postcards saying "don't forget to mow", or we can see your torn up this from the street". If you don't mow, you get a second postcard. I guess they could eventually take you to court, but we have a couple of people in violation and have been for many years. I think they comply for a month and then go back to their ways. So for us it isn't really a big deal. I also just found that beauty to one, is not beauty to another.
Ditto Kaye!! If you live in a neighborhood, like we do, with small lots, it is really nice to have a HOA. We also have lots of wooded areas, a community pool, playground, and basketball courts. The HOA makes sure these are properly cared for.
I think the big thing is to make sure to not buy in a HOA community if you don't want to follow rules.
You may be okay with how things are now. It seems like your HOA is not real strict. Just know this could change. I would also do what Ginny suggested, and attend meetings, and get involved.
"My question is what happens if you don't follow their rules? What are they going to do?........Make you tear down your fence? Take you to court?"
Yes, they CAN take you to court - it happened to my X-boss. As Vicki said, you sign for those rules. They can also force you to tear down a fence or a storage building, remove what they consider *offensive* yard or garden decor, etc. The neighborhood I spoke of above nit picks to such a degree that they issue warnings and more to people who don't dead-head their flowers in their gardens!
Also, in his neighborhood, every home is required to have a specific mailbox - they are all exactly lthe same - to the tune of over $300.
Again, it's really up to the Association as to whether or not they want to enforce every rule. And that, in large part, is determined by the Association Board. And then, in part, by the friends of those board members - all it takes is a catty little group of people running things, and they can destroy an entire neighborhood, rather than benefit it.
I think I'll just stay in my non-descript neighborhood, where we can just do what we want! Subdivisions look nice, and all, but I would hate all those rules, too. Sometimes we get busy and get a little behind on our lawnmowing. The whole "postcard" thing would be annoying to me.
Gary cut the branches off the mugho pine and really we are going to cut the rest of it down and plant something new, but we haven't gotten that far yet. I know it's ugly, but it's still our yard.
I have to admit, that when we get tight on time, the lawn you can see from the street, is what gets mowed and nothing more! LOL!
Dawn HOA's only really care about what you can see from the street. We do a good job with our front lawn because of it. And I am proud to admit we haven't had a post card in over a year..LOL. The post cards just don't bother me, but they are a great, honey do motivator..LOL.
I can't imagine getting a postcard. PLEASE!!! From what I've gathered from the current homeowners over the last couple of days, I don't think it's like that in this situation.
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