Need some outsiders opinions please
Moms View Message Board: General Discussion: Archive July 2008:
Need some outsiders opinions please
yesterday my friends 14yo dd, 12yo ds, my 10yo ds and 6yo dd stayed at her house while we ran some errands. My dd, even after we told her dd that she couldn't be outside alone, was coming in from drawing chalk on the sidewalk (alone) when friends dog bolted through the door. My dd freaked and started crying. By the time they got her calm and went to find the dog he had bit another dog and a lady. Now this is the most friendly, dog ever. He has never had an agressive side that we have seen. Come to find out, the owner of the other dog freaked when she saw him coming and started kicking at him and then punching him. Well duh! your going to get bit what dog wouldn't try to defend himself.and duh again, if they were fighting you don't try to break it up by putting your body parts in the way. This mind you was infront of the ladys 2 kids, one of them in a stroller. (Is it just me or should she have been a little more concerned with her kids safety then the dogs, but thats a whole other issure in itself) So the police came and told us on the cell that everything was ok, they are not pressing charges and the dog is fine. I was upset and feeling bad that my dd let her dog out, she told me it was not my dd fault and told my dd the same. We we get to the house the police/animal control were there to take do for quarantine. Then, this AM friend gets a phone call they took the dog to an animal hospital and they say the bill is over 1000 with more to come. And is she going to pay it or do they have to take legal action.
I am not sure what you are asking in your last sentence. Regardless of why the dog bit or how it got out, your friend is responsible for her dogs actions and should pay the animal hospital bill as well as the person the dog bit medical bills. Is she asking you to pay it or threatening you with legal action - or is that the hospital talking to her?
Ditto Colette. If a dog gets out and bites people or other animals, the dog's owner is responsible and very well could face legal actions. It could also be ordered that the biting dog be put down.
FWIW, if an aggressive looking dog was approaching me I'd do whatever possible to protect myself and those with me. If you weren't there to see the actual incident, how do you know what really happened?
I am confused too. Are you saying that the dog that got bit by your friend's dog has a $1,000.00 medical bill that they are asking your friend to pay? Are you asking if you should pay, or help pay?
Personally, yes I would feel bad about the entire situation, but I wouldn't feel responsible. All your dd did was open the door to go inside the house. Your dd was an invited guest in their home. If their dog got out, and there was an incident, it isn't your dd's fault. She didn't intentionally let the dog out.
Add me to the others that aren't quite sure what you are asking. However, I would be upset that the older children let your dd go out alone even after you saying she couldn't. I am assuming that the older children were responsible for her? In hind sight, one of the older kids (or your ds) should have stayed to calm your dd and the other one(s) should have went immediately after the dog.
In no way is it your dd's fault or should you have to pay any bills. I would however say that your friend is responisble for them. And I agree, if an aggressive looking dog was running towards me, I wouldn't wait to find out if it were going to attack me or not. I would be defending myself, my child and my dog. Doing what ever it took! I think your friend is lucky they didn't want to press charges!
I don't know how that got posted annon....that is what the owner said to my friend. he didn't even give her a chance to say she would pay the vet bill. He just immediately got nasty with her. She knows she is responisble for her dog. Her dog is in quarantine, and possibly injured as well. they are not blaming my daughter. the witness say that the owner started kicking and punching. She wouldn't have gotten bit if she had not done so. Witness said the the other owner and her MIL were too busy beating on the dog to worry about the kids. I understand that her dog wasn't on a leash but I do think that handled properly this situation could have been different. I do feel really bad about the whole situation. Sorry it wasn't worded better I didn't get much sleep last night, I'm still dealing with the cleaning and painting and moving misc items from the old houes to the new house and thats what we were doing yesterday when this happened.
her dog is a very calm and loving husky. They walk him everday in this neighborhood and they come in conctact with other dogs all the time. He has never so much as snarled at another dog so we are not understaning what happened. and you are right we weren't there we only know what the witness told the police.
I agree, too many theys in your post, so I don't know who is charging who for vet bills and who is threatening to sue who.
First, your friend needs to calm down (and so do you). Your friend should just sit tight for 24 hours. She should try to get a copy of the police report, which may list the witness' name and contact information. It will at least show whether the police ascribe fault to your friend.
Also, your friend needs to think about whether her homeowner's insurance carrier knows she has a dog. If they do, after she gets the police report, if it does not fault your friend, she should contact her homeowner's insurance carrier and tell them what has happened, give them the police report number and offer to send them a copy, and leave it in their hands. Part of what you pay for in a homeowners' or auto insurance policy is for your insurance company to provide for your defense when you are sued. If the person who is threatening to sue is the other dog's owner.
Now, if the vet bill is for your friend's dog, for the quarantine, then she has a quarrel with the animal control people and the vet. If they were going to take her dog to a private vet they should have told her so she could have the dog taken to her own vet. And, $1,000 sounds very high for a 10 day quarantine.
As to whether your friend is liable, it depends to a great extent on the laws in your state about "first bite" or if there is indeed a "first bite" law. From what you describe, the other person clearly has some responsibility for provoking your friend's dog.
Finally, your 6 year old dd is not in any way responsible. You made it clear she was not to go outside alone, and the older children let her go outside alone. One lesson from this is that you cannot trust either your friends' children nor your 10 year old son to watch your 6 year old dd in the future.
I am a bit confused that the officer said the dog was fine but it turn around and needed surgery? What was the surgery for? Is friends dog categorized as a vicious dog, Pit, Rot, German Shepard etc.? Does your friends homeowners insurance cover dog bites?
From what I am understanding... This is just my opinion and not a personal attack on you but, I think that at 6 your daughter should have known better than to be outside, especially if you told her that she wasn't to go outside, she and I would have a bit of an issue, because by the age of 6 they clearly understand what stay inside means, and I wouldn't just let it slide as not her fault. Actions have consequences, she broke the rule you set for her and she allowed the dog to get out, meaning to or not. If she hadn't been outside the dog wouldn't have gotten out. You were not there, you gave control over her to a 14 year old that should have been keeping an eye on her actions for sure, so I am not saying you are in anyway at fault for what happened. You and your friend trusted her daughter to keep an eye on your children and she clearly had other idea's of what that meant. If I was your friend, my daughter and I would have an issue too.
Your friend is financially responsible for the actions of her dog and her children, that is a fact. She is liable for all bills that occur during the time her dog was loose. This is including but not limited to any treatment and follow up treatment that the other woman has for her bites, medications she needs to take, etc. Unless her insurance pays the bills and then she is liable to the insurance company, if the woman wants to pursue that. She is liable for any injuries that occurred to the dog, any bills that come about because of the bites, including medications and follow visits for the injuries. She can also be held liable, with in reason, for any missed days of work (If she is a WOHM) if she can prove that she couldn't function at a capacity to do her job because of the bites.
She will likely receive a bill for the quarantine too and if she doesn't have her dogs shots current, if he is not registered, they can charge her for those things and I believe there is a fine. If her dog has bitten before he could be put down at a cost to her. If he bites again she can be fined and he will likely be put to sleep.
If the other ladies dog had come into friends yard. IF she had been on friends property retrieving her dog, the situation would be different. If her dog was also loose running, in a town with leash laws, then she would carry some of the blame. But if she was walking her dog on a leash, if your friends dog approached them. If she believed she needed to defend herself, her dog and her children, with in reason she had due cause. The other womans dog could have been the aggressor, but with her dog being leashed that is a mute point. She had her dog under reasonable control, leashed, and dear friends dog unleashed, unsupervised approached them, your friend is liable.
Now.. IF it were me, and this was my good friend, I would lean towards helping out with the bill. Even though my daughter didn't mean to let the dog out, she did allow the dog out by not following the rules, and despite the fact she is 6, there is no questioning her actions played a part in the dog getting out. No you weren't in charge of her in the moment but we are liable for the actions of our children regardless of who has temporary charge of them.
As the mom of the 14 year old, she would be mowing some serious grass, cleaning some serious house, not seeing outside of my property for a while, and wishing to God she hadn't not kept a better eye on your daughter like she was told.
It is money, it is a lot of money, BUT it could be worse. Your daughter could have been injured, or taken or God forbid something worse. There needs to be some lessons learned from this.
If the woman that was injured is being snarky, might want to involve an attorney. Friend should be able to have a copy of all bills for anything she is being asked to pay. She should also be able to set up payment with the vet hospital for the amounts owed. Any contact from the other woman, or anyone that represents the other woman needs to be recorded in a note book, encase this does go to court. And she needs to get her hands on the incident report from the police and the dog warden to find out what exactly they have recorded as injuries sustained by the dogs and the woman. She needs to keep, a record of all contact, the bills she is sent, the money she pays (canceled checks or money orders), she needs to pay all bills directly to the medical facility not this woman. And.. unless she takes her to court she owes her no more than the bills.. The woman can't say you owe me $2000 for pain and injury, even though some people think they can set a dollar amount and demand it. She only owes for the things she can prove with in a reasonable doubt that her dog did and she is liable for.
Wow that was a book... another two post in a row...
Her home owners insurance is likely not going to get involved with this, even if she has coverage.
Top ten characterized vicious dogs
Pit Bulls Alaskan Malamutes
Rottweilers Akitas
Chow Chows American Staffordshire Terriers
Doberman Pinschers Boxers
German Shepherds Great Danes
Siberian Huskies Wolf-hybrids
Her dog, is listed as a vicious dog, which is likely why he is under quarantine. Even if he hasn't attacked before his breed is "known" to attack and they auto quarantine "dangerous" breeds. If he shows signs of aggression while in quarantine, scared or not, they have the right to put the dog to sleep. She needs to contact the place that has him and find out how he is doing and talk to them. This might work in her favor, if the dog is gentle with them, even though he is injured, then it will go towards his character as to whether he was the aggressor or not.
As Ginny and I both said, she needs to get her hands on that police report before she decides to do anything.... She might want to call the non emergency number and leave a message for the officer from the scene and ask to speak to him.
DH was rear ended, on a state route. The guy showed up at our house and tried to say we owed for the damage to his car. In a rear end accident the one in the rear is generally at fault, with in reason. The officer that came to the scene of the accident ended up being our ace. He had written down every thing DH had told him and everything the witnesses that stopped to help DH get off the road had told him and it clearly showed that the other guy was at fault and we didn't owe anything. He actually owed us.
After being a witness to a similar situation here. I will tell you what happened here. It went to court and was dismissed.
If I understand you correctly, the other dog is now hurt (according to its owner) and that is where the $1000 bill is coming from.
Since their dog was also loose, there will need to be evidence of which dog bit first. This WILL go to court. Once animal control is involved, it becomes a court case. At least that is what I was told happens here.
Your friend should contact her insurance co and document everything.
The issue of the children is a seperate case. I do not think a 14 year old can be responsible for three children. You are responsible for your childs actions, so I think that would mean at least 50% of the bill.
I am sorry this happened!
Ginny... three in a row.. Oops, sorry...
Need to cut the jerk of a husband a bit of slack. He wasn't there, he is going off the word of his overly stressed wife and MIL (?). Who in the middle of it likely are seeing things a bit different then the people that witnessed it from the outside. He has no right to be a "tool" but in the same turn if it was my DH he might be a little bit (hmmm) angry. And if I was the other woman, I likely would have been scared to death.. Adrenaline does odd things to the memory and things aren't seen as they really are.
Friend needs to get a hold of the police report before she makes any commitments to pay anything.
If friends dog was trotting a long not doing anything and the woman attacked him as you guys are hearing, and as Ginny said, this is a first bite, your friend might not be liable or only liable for a partial bill for not having her dog leashed. What the husband of the other woman thinks doesn't matter, the laws of your state do, and that will be what your friend has to do...
I will read and go more into detail when I have a bit more time. But I think it needs to be said.
Dogs are animals, they bite. Sometimes they don't. But they very rarely give warning. I have a dog that my kids have wrestled with and I am sure have been too aggressive with and they were fine, other dogs just aren't. I think we as a society have put way too much trust in how good our animals are. They should be treated as the possible dangerous animals they are. When you own a big dog like that they shouldn't have access to the front door, period, there should be a gate, or a screen or something. You just never know.
We own a golden retriever, that I swear if she ever bit someone I would be so stunned, but she is a big dog, with a big mouth and if she made that choice it would be good. We have a gate at our entry, she can't get out when the door is opened, it just makes good sense to protect everyone.
Also for the record, if a dog was running at me, especially if I had a dog (who for all you know was in heat), I too would have freaked, which would have meant putting my body parts in the way. You don't run from a dog, you get in the fetal position. But you can't really do that with a baby and a dog in tow. I don't think she made a bad choice, she saw a BIG scary dog running towards her.
Bobbie, with respect, whether Anon's friend is liable for anything depends to a great extent on just what happened and how the police officer (and witness) describe it. If the other person provoked the friend's dog (which may be what happened), the provoking party has significant responsibility. As for the vicious dog list - I know several huskies. They are, by and large, very friendly and not vicious dogs. Rotties are listed, and every Rottie I know and most I have heard of are very gentle. I personally think those lists are made up by idiots. As to whether the homeowners' policy will get involved, that depends on the policy and, to some extent, whether they knew she had a dog and the dog's breed.
If it were me, I would not pay a thing for the other person's dog but would turn it over to my insurance company.
Ginny, apparently they have attacked enough people to be put on the list. I didn't make the rules. Whether the people that wrote the list are idiots or not is irrelevant, that is the list, and that is the list that the police warden and the police department use when addressing a dog.
To my knowledge, Owners of dogs on the "list" are required to carry separate coverage at a higher rate, at least that is the way it works around here. My dad has a Doberman and he has to carry a second policy on him, because he is once again on the list and is high risk for a bite and his home owners insurance will not cover the dog.
Provoking party, pretty sure her dog running loose in the neighborhood, on purpose or not would be seen as a potential provoking party.
Under Strict Liability, the "one-free bite" rule is thrown out of the window. Many states, including California, have passed statutes that hold a dog owner liable even if the dog has never bitten anyone or shown the propensity to bite. This is called strict liability. These types of statutes effectively eliminate the "one-free bite" rule because liability is based upon ownership. It is irrelevant whether or not the dog bit someone in the past or whether the owner was unaware that the dog could be vicious. Under California law the victim of a dog attack only needs to show that the owner of the dog is liable by proving.. the dog was owned by the defendant, the attack occurred on public property or while the victim was lawfully on private property, the victim was injured by a bite, and the dog caused the injury.
Negligence in this case is called "negligence per se." This means that an owner or keeper is automatically presumed to be liable for a victim's injuries if a local law, such as a leash law or other animal control law, is violated and the violation is the proximate cause of the victim's injuries. If the owner or keeper has no justification for the violation, then liability is fixed and there is no need to prove that the owner or keeper failed to exercise due care in their control of the dog. If a dog is off a leash, you run to escape from the dog and are injured, even if the dog doesn't actually bite you, then the owner is liable for the bill.
However, under Assumption Of The Risk clause, actions of the victim prior to the dog attack are looked at. The dog owner can be found not liable if the victim kicked, teased, or otherwise provoked the dog. In such a case the dog owner may raise the defense that the victim provoked the dog and therefore assumed the risk of the dog attack. These things have to be clearly recorded in a police report. It can not be addressed as hearsay, as we both know. The other woman also has the right to defend her children and her dog and if she can prove she attacked in fear for their safety then she will be seen as acting under due cause. Seeing that the dog is on the "list" it will be hard to disprove she wasn't protecting her children and her dog.
We haven't heard anything about the other dog, what breed was it??? Was it leashed?
Comment on the vicious dogs list:
Top ten characterized vicious dogs
Pit Bulls Alaskan Malamutes Guy I was friends/involved with after divorcing X had a pit/Rottie mix, and THAT dog, though protective, was NOT vicious - and was very kid friendly
Rottweilers Akitas owned a pure bred Rottie and she was THE sweetest dog ever
Chow Chows American Staffordshire Terriers
Doberman Pinschers Boxers
German Shepherds Great Danes
Siberian Huskies Wolf-hybrids MY dog Kali is a Chow/Husky mix, never aggressive, very kid friendly and sweet, and has never bitten anyone, and is now 10 y/o
AND - after posting about the bite I got from a friend's dog post-Katrina, which happened to be a Cocker Spaniel, I found out that that particular breed accounts for a quite a large percentage of dog bites in this country.
I realize that ANYONE can train a dog - certainly a large dog, and those breeds with a bad reputation - to be mean and aggressive. But the dogs that scare *me* the most are smaller breeds/nippy dogs.
As for liability, I don't pretend to know the law, and I assume it varies by state. Here, the first time someone seeks medical care or other action from a dog bite, the dog is quarantined and then has *a police record*. But it sounds like, in this particular incident, there were a number of variables in play here, and I'm still not 100% clear on all the details.
Karen, I have been bitten by a Poodle and a Cocker Spaniel too, both dogs are not on the list.
However, as I stated, whether we agree with the list, whether the people that wrote the list are idiots or not, the list exist and that is how they regulate the procedures used with these dogs. And a "dangerous" dog is required to be handled differently than a dog not on the list. Even if that dog has never bitten anyone in their lives, it is a potential to be dangerous to human life. IF a poodle bites you, you have small bites. IF a big dog bites you can loose body parts, if not your life. Don't hear of very many cases where a cocker spaniel has killed a full size adult in an attack. However, there are cases where the dogs on the list have. You see what I mean?
I think Chihuahuas should be on the list! Seriously. Those things are evil.
Kristie, i'm assuming this happened on base and the report was taken by MP's? I wonder if there are different laws and ways they go about things as opposed to CA state? You might want to check into that.
I don't pretend to totally understand all that happened but the only advice I have for you and your friend.. DO NOT commit to pay anything until you have actual bills and don't pay anything in cash and keep all your records.. And I do know that in TX if both dogs are off the leash and they can't tell who was the first to bite everyone pays their own bills...
Good luck!
Dog Bite Law, California
Reading on whether the laws apply to military bases, and so far from what I have found they do.. When I find a clear answer I will post the link.
Kristy, your friend really needs the police report. And she needs to report the event to her homeowners' insurance carrier if she has homeowners or tenants' insurance (either one will have liability coverage). In many instances a liability insurance carrier will at least begin to conduct a defense, even if they don't, in the end, cover the event itself. That the other dog's owner says your friend is responsible for the vet bills means nothing. Each state's laws are different, and many states do hold a dog owner liable for the first bite. But, from what you say, there is some question here as to who provoked what. It is entirely possible, from what you describe, that this friendly (unleashed) husky came over to check out another dog (also unleashed) and the person(s) with the dog attacked the husky. Yes, the laws probably require quarantine for your friend's dog. Your friend or someone from the family should visit the quarantine facilty, first to see if it is decent, and second, to make sure the people running it know that someone really cares about what happens with the husky.
I checked California's statutes, and there is no "list" of dog breeds automatically assumed to be dangerous in the statute. The statute describes behavior only. I also checked the link Bobbie provided. The statute has an interesting clause: " No dog may be declared potentially dangerous or vicious if any injury or damage is sustained by a person who, at the time the injury or damage was sustained, was committing a willful trespass or other tort upon, premises occupied by the owner or keeper of the dog, or was teasing, tormenting, abusing, or assaulting the dog, or was committing or attempting to commit a crime." The link Bobbie provided seems to say that California courts have upheld this sentence in the statute.
I do find it interesting that the other party called to say your friend is liable for the vet bill, but said nothing about any doctor bills. I wonder if the person(s) with the other dog were injured at all. That can make a big difference.
In RI, even if the shots are up to date, the animal needs to be watched for fifteen days. If the shots are up to date, the animal can be quarantined at home. If not, it is impounded in the town animal shelter, for which the owner pays. You are not allowed to give the dog away or euthanize it during the quarantine period.
Tell your friend to be careful. That vet bill sounds excessive. That happened to a neighbour here many years ago. A loose neighborhood dog wandered into her yard. Her own dog was tied up. Being protective of his turf, he lunged at the loose dog when it got too close and a scuffle ensued. The owners of the loose dog took him to the vet for his minor injuries and while there, had all the shots, worm check, heartworm test, etc. (things they hadn't done on regular basis), and tried to present the ENTIRE bill to the homeowner. Because the loose dog WAS running loose, their claim was thrown out, but they tried to turn the situation to their economic advantage.
Military Regulation 40-3, dated 15 April 1997, parallels California law and, in
fact, adopts it for application to the POM and the Ord Military Community. POM Reg 40-3
provides for responsibilities of animal owners and procedures for animal control. The owner of
a dog which has bitten or scratched a person must comply with quarantine procedures including
presenting the dog to the Veterinary Treatment Facility. An animal involved in one unprovoked vicious bite or two provoked bite incidents must be
removed from the installation. Violations of animal control procedures may result in prosecution
before a US Magistrate, military disciplinary action, and eviction from housing.
Both dog bite victims and dog owners are eligible for legal advice at the Legal Assistance
Office, although each party must see different attorneys. Appointments can be made at the legal office.
The Military base, follows California dog bite laws, which specifically establishes the dog owner’s liability for injuries inflicted by the owner’s dog without a requirement to prove the owner did anything wrong. It doesn’t matter if the attack occurs in a public or private place. It doesn’t matter whether the dog was ever previously vicious or if the owner knew of the dog’s viciousness. In fact, if a defendant
owner tries to introduce evidence at court that Rover was gentle and friendly, the judge will
likely not allow it because the evidence is irrelevant. In other words, the old “one-free-bite”
rule, giving the dog (or more precisely, the owner), a second chance before facing liability, is not the law. California’s strict liability statute is not unique, and it covers non-bite incidents such as scratching, tripping, or knocking someone over also.
A dog owner may be able to assert a defense. If the victim acted in a way to excite, alarm, or
disturb the dog, the court may find the victim contributed to the injuries received. But in the instance of a person attacking out of fear, it is difficult to prove guilt of the human aggressor. Especially, if the dog goes on to bite the human. The Assumption Of The Risk clause, generally only works in the case of a person that is brutalizing an animal unprovoked by the animal, when the animal bites. A case of Neglect to restrain the dog properly in a leash law state, generally throws out this defense out, the dog getting loose is not a defense. However, a judge can find the plaintiff partially at fault, if the dog backs off and they continue the assault until the dog attacks. But it has to be well documented to prove the attack was not provoked and that the human was the aggressor and the dog did not approach the human requiring the human to act out in protection of themselves, or others in fear of the animal. One snap in defense is seen as different, then the dog attacking both the other dog and the the human.
IDK, but those are the things I was able to find. it says your friend can get free defense through the base. I am pretty sure, if she hasn't already, she needs to contact them ASAP.
Don't take any more calls from the other people. Don't admit to anything, don't promise anything to them.
There is a top out in the state of California for a small claims case of up to $5000 dollars. She needs to get representation, now.. and if she has rental insurance, she needs to contact them as Ginny suggested.
I hope everything works it self out for your friend, it really sucks when things become out of our control.. Hope her dog is okay too. Poor thing.
I didn't mean to start a debate, I'm sorry. Thank you for all the information. I hadn't even thought about telling her to go to base legal for help, I will let her know. I did tell her to call her insurance and they are looking into a claim. She understands that she is responisble for her dogs actions. She said she is going to have to make payments to this guy. The base animal shelter is trying to push for a home quarantine. They say Kota shows no sign of agression. He is very loving and they (shelter) don't understand what went wrong. He was not registered yet on base she just moved in last month and between her move and my move she had not gotten around to doing so. Quarantine and registration is only going to be $75 and then he will be put on doggy probation. The $1000+ vet bill is for the other dog. Which the officer told us on the phone was fine. The lady told the office that as the dog (Kota) got close she became scared and started "kicking the crap of him as hard as she could" Ok fine what ever....the grandma should have been concered with the kids and not jumped in on the attack, punching him and she would have not gotten bit. Grandma declined to press charges. Can she still choose to do so?
There is a screen door. My son was not in charge of my daugher. The 14 year old was in charge and was too busy on the phone/internet to watch her and told my daugher she could play out on the front porch with the chalk. Her comment to my son when he tried to tell her to come back in the house because mom wouldn't want you out there was "leave her alone, my mom said your mom said she didn't want her outside alone not that she couldn't go outside. I didn't leave the instructions with the kids, I gave insructions to my friend and my friend gave them to her dd when she left to come get me (my kids stayed the night there) She also decided on her own that she didn't want to watch my daugher after her mom left and told thy boys that they were to watch her. She obviously is not very responsible and will not be watching my kids again. She is not being punished for any of this. I felt bad and was going to offer pay for part of it but after finding out that she was told she could go outside by 14yo (even though 14yo knew my wishes nothing was told to my ddd), and the fact that the 14yo is not being punished at all for breaking into her moms room to get the laptop and phone and not watching her I don't know if I'm going to or not. friend is going to buy an invisible fence/shock collar thingy to put around the front porch so he won't attempt to go through the door again. I don't know that I agree with that but thats her choice. I have mixed feelings on the whole shock collar thing.
If her insurance does not cover the vet bills I will contact mine to see what they say.
Kristy, I would urge your friend to NOT pay any vet bills until after she talks to the legal office. I understand she may feel morally responsible, and many of the posts above indicate other people feel the same way. But my take on it is that the other dog owner chose to assault your friend's dog, and your friend's dog didn't do anything until it was assaulted. Sorry, but any dog will react when it is assaulted. It would not surprise me if the other person's dog also reacted to the violence. And, the other dog was not on a leash, which meant that the other person had absolutely no control over her own dog. Does anyone know who bit who first?
And definitely, if I were in your shoes, I would not be offering to pay any part of the vet bills, for several reasons. First, your daughter is 6, and a 6 year old is not "responsible" in legal terms. Second, your daughter did nothing wrong - she opened the door to come into the house. If anyone is to blame, it is your friend's 14 year old daughter, who did not fulfill the responsibility she was charged with by her mother, told your sons to not bring their sister inside the house when they tried to follow the rules, and then shuffled her childcare responsibiities off on your sons - and, from what you say, went into her mother's room to get the computer so she could be on the internet, which indicates to me she wasn't supposed to be doing that. I would be very surprised if your insurance carrier sees any liability on your part or any way you can get your insurance to pay any part of it.
I have sympathy for the poor dog that was hurt in this mess, but in my opinion no harm would have been done to anyone if the other person had not assaulted your friend's dog. I don't see any reason for your friend to pay anything she is not legally required to pay, and I certainly don't see any reason for you to pay anything. You said the officer told her the $1000 vet bill was "fine". Was this a legal aid officer, telling her that she is responsible to pay the bill and it is not padded? Or what?
And I have sympathy for your friend. She may well get hit with a $1,000 vet bill (or at least, if her insurance covers this event, for the deductible on her policy). But at the same time, she is not disciplining her daughter in any way about this, though the daughter clearly has some serious responsibility for what happened.
I don't much like shock collars either. I also don't like the invisible fence thing. From what I've read, some dogs get so excited they dash right "through" the invisible fence, ignoring the shock, but when they are not excited they won't go back through it to get back into their yard. I recently rescued a dog which had done just that - ran through the invisible fence to run after a kid on a bike, and wound up crossing some busy streets and jumping around at the gas station until I got him to come to me and brought him home, where I could read his tag and call his owner. Turns out Bailey has gone through the invisible fence at least a half dozen times. I also wonder how well either the shock collar or invisible fence collar will work on a dog with the thick ruff a Husky has.
Ginny,
The (Military Police) officer told my friend over the phone that the other dog was fine, this was while we were on our way back. We never have seen this other dog. The lady's (that was kicking Kota) husband is who called first thing the next morning threatening with legal action if the bill doesn't get paid. His comment to my friend was "the bill is already about $1000 are you going to pay it or do I need to start legal action!" (this is the bill from the ER Vet, he claims that he is still taking his dog to another vet because the ER Vet was closing) Not even giving her a chance to say she would or wouldn't pay. She told him that she wanted copies of the bills. I told her to take them and the report (which won't be ready until 8 days after) to base legal. To my knowledge he has not made any further contact with my friend. DD was sick the day before and I was sick all day yesterday so I didn't do much talking to anyone except my husband who said pretty much that he isn't paying the bill. I will call her today when I get back from the old house, I have a ton of cleaning and yard work to do. I'll let you know what I find out.
I think your friend is taking the right steps. If the MP said the dog was fine, and he was on the spot, that's a clue. That the dog's owner is taking their dog to yet another vet "because the ER vet was closing) is interesting - one would assume that all of the necessary treatment was given at the first ER visit except for removing any sutures (if there were any). I wonder if the ER vet was closing for the day, in which case any competent vet would finish treatment before closing and wonders why additional vet treatment was needed; or closing the practice, a whole other thing but, again, one could reasonably assume all necessary treatment was completed.
Frankly, it sounds to me like the other dogs' owners are trying to get a windfall from their own misbehavior and their assessment of your friend's basic honesty and decency, and bullying. You are right to advise her to take the report and (itemized, one hopes) bills to base legal. If the other dog's owner makes any further contact, I suggest she say "we are going to base legal after we get the police report, and will not discuss this matter any further until we have received legal advice", and say it as often as necessary. As you know, I agree with your dh - there is no way you should pay any of this bill (if anyone other than the dog's owner *should* pay any part of it).
Sorry you and dd have been sick. Hope you are both feeling better.
By the way, Kristy, I think you are a class act to spend so much time on your friend's problem while you are in the throes of moving. You are a true friend, and then some.
If they indeed took the dog to an emergency vet (as opposed to a vet that offers emergency services during business hours and on call thereafter) the closest emergency vet to us is in either Carlsbad or San Marcos (same company) and they are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They don't close.
Here's a link:
http://www.californiaveterinaryspecialists.com/
There are no other emergency vets by us.
Kristy, I related this story to Scott, who suggests that if the other dog's owner calls again, your friend should insist on not only an itemized bill, but also a copy of the treatment records/chart for the other dog. It would be interesting to know what the dog was treated for, as the MP says the dog seemed fine. Though Scott points out that an MP is not a vet and would only note, if anything, obvious signs of injury. Personally, I am still inclined to think this is a scam attempt because the other dog's owners know they were wrong for assaulting your friend's husky. I do find it very interesting that no one appears to be talking about any human medical bills. One would normally expect a dog to defend itself against the attacker(s) who, in this case, were humans, but no one is claiming any injury to a human.
Melissa, that is very interesting. I'm really interested in finding out where they took the dog.
Ginny, Sometimes its a curse and comes back to bite me in the behind. One of these days I might learn my lesson, probably not, lol.
I'll keep you all updated as I hear anything.
Kristy, I know just what you mean. But a long time ago I decided that even if it come back to bite me, I'd rather be the kind of person who takes the chance of helping other people than not. My parents were always helping people, and sometimes it backfired on them, but that never stopped them, and that was my model.
UPDATE! The final bill ended up being almost $2700. Her insurance paid for everything except her dogs quaranty time. I feel that this incident has definately strained our relationship as I'm not willing to leave my kids with her daughter anymore and she doesn't understand why. um hello? I have come to realize a lot about our "friendship" during this time and I'm not to happy about it. But that is a whole other post.
I can tell you that if a dog is off leash in California and attacks another dog/person it is the liability of the owner of the leashless dogs.
What a sad situation for everyone involved.
As far as the vicious dog list goes.
I've been doing dog rescue for over 10 years. I can tell you that of all the dog breeds the only ones that have tried to bite me are Chihuahua's and Cocker Spaniels, and Schnauzers!
I've rescued pits, rotts(I have one for adoption right now), Danes, Mastiffs, etc. Not once have I been bit by or attempted to bite by any of these breeds.
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