Moral dilema...what to say
Moms View Message Board: General Discussion: Archive April 2008:
Moral dilema...what to say
I have ranted on here about girl scouts before. I have 6 really great girls, but very little parental help. I have one mom who is great. One of the mothers has really caused me nothing but trouble. Her daughter has been with me for almost 4 years now. She is always late picking her daughter up, she often owes us money, she has always paid the big amounts, but only after several ugly emails (both ways), etc. Cookies are a nightmare. She has stayed at meetings on occasion, bringing her younger son, maybe 4 times in the past 4 years. 3 years ago we went rock climbing and she chaperoned. I can't think of anything else. She does always show to ceremonies and parties. Her daughter doesn't typically provide food if they are asked to bring a snack. She misses meetings due to me not giving personal phone calls if she doesn't show. She doesn't drive on unknown streets, so she can't drive girls. Anyway, the short story is, I dont' trust her and she is a mooch. We barely speak, she mostly drives by and kicks her daugher out of the car.
Today she sent me an email, asked if she could put my name down as a reference to volunteer for her sons baseball little league. Since she has helped at Girl Scouts.
Well I don't have anything kind to say about her, and I cannot give her a positive reference. My suggestion to them is to do a background check before they let her volunteer. Personally I would like to inform the group that she is about to "use" (in my opinion), so they can legally protect themselves. But I also don't really want to gossip.
I just can't even fathom how to respond without making her mad, or lying. I am contemplating just ignoring the request.
However, my bigger struggle is, I dont' know what type of position. It would be good for her to be involved as long as the kids weren't in danger or it wasn't dealing in money. With my GS mom, I found out that she was asking for money to keep her electric on, pay rent etc. Several of my mothers handed her money to help her out. She owes at least 3 moms in excess of 100 dollars (for over 3 years now). I don't let her sell cookies without prepayment after a bad experience last year over 40 dollars. So I struggle with having a known bad person mess with another organization. I wish I had been warned. I could have protected my other moms better.
So what would you say or do?
"I'm sorry, but I do not act as a reference for anyone." If she asks why, "that's my personal rule".
There are just too many pitfalls in acting as a reference except for someone (a) you know really well and (b) can be very positive about. And you know that if you give her anything other than a glowing reference, sooner or later it will get back to her. Why set yourself up for problems down the road. If I may quote, "just say no".
Now, if you have been a reference for someone else and she knows about it, that's different.
I agree with Ginny. Just say NO!
Ditto Ginny. I would just decline.
But...isn't the whole point of a reference to give some innocent employer or organization an HONEST opinion of someone they are considering?? If only people who LIKE the potential employee/volunteer give references, what is the point? It does the unsuspecting people no good! I would give the reference and be totally honest! She's not going to ever SEE your reference, is she?? She certainly SHOULDN'T be allowed to see it... Think how you'd feel if someone unsuited for work with children were to end up working with YOUR children because no one was honest about her shortcomings?
Kate, I understand the dilemma you raise. If someone from the little league group whom Kaye knows well calls her and asks for her personal opinion, then I think I would advise Kaye to give her opinion, with factual backup, IF she trustd the person to keep what she says completely confidential.
But that's not what happened. This woman asked Kaye to take a positive step and allow her name to be used as a reference. That is, to me, a wholly different thing. When I was job hunting, I asked a few former employers and friends who work in the field in which I work to act as references, and selected them very carefully. They knew, and I knew, that I was asking them because I believed they would give positive references. That's why you ask people to serve as references for you, and it is very different from listing your job experience and supervisors on an application form. It's not like writing a letter of reference, or responding to a written questionnaire from a prospective employer about a former employee.
If Kaye allows herself to be used as a reference and no one calls her, just the fact that her name is listed by this woman as a reference could cause some people to infer that Kaye would say positive things about her. Otherwise, why would the woman list Kaye? If anything, it will most likely produce a phone call "I see Mrs. X listed you as a reference - what do you think of her as a volunteer parent?" And that phone call will come from someone who is not necessarily experienced in the practice of checking references, and not necessarily attuned to the need for confidentiality when checking references. If someone does call her, Kaye is faced with the dilemma of either relating her experience with and opinion of this woman as a volunteer parent for a childrens' organization, or saying fluffy nothings - and either one can rebound on Kaye.
Most employers these days will only answer very narrow questions about former employees - yes, X worked here from (date) to (date), X's position was ????. Because employers don't want to be sued, unless a former employee was terminated for very clear cause, the former employer won't say why the person left, and often won't say why even if the person was fired for something totally illegal and awful. Employers are afraid of being sued - not that the former employee would win, but the expense of having to defend a suit. (My firm is in that position right now with someone they terminated for very valid cause.) Most often any negative information is transmitted by nuance in a telephone call, so that there is no documentation. It's not particularly helpful to prospective employers, but it is a fact of life.
In Kaye's case, it is highly possible that anything she says about this woman will get back to her, perhaps in a roundabout fashion. Which could make things very uncomfortable for Kaye. So Kaye is faced with choices of how to be uncomfortable - refuse to allow her name to be listed as a reference; run the risk that anything negative she says about the woman will get back to her and cause problems for Kaye; or give a dishonest reference and worry about the potential damage to the little league program. Not nice choices. My advice stands. And I personally think it only underscores this woman's insensitivity that she would ask Kaye to be a reference for her, given what Kaye relates of her history with Kaye.
That's my very lengthy explanation of my reasoning on this question.
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