I am posting as anon because I am so embarassed that I let stuff like this bother me. Anyway, Friend #1 buys house for 1/2 million dollars...in way over their heads but able to hang with the "in" crowd. Friend #2 sending oldest child to private Catholic school even though she and hubby are over $100,000 in debt with dental school loans, they are not Catholic and are trying to get a medical card to cover the birth of their 4th child.
Why am I bothered? I guess it is the superior attitude that, now matter how hard I try, makes me feel inferior. We live in a nice house that is within our means. We chose not to go to the local Catholic school because academically it is not any better than our local public AND it has become quite exclusive. (In my mind exclusive does not mean better).
Anybody else feel this way and does it drive you nuts? I try to be thankful for every blessing in my life and mostly I am successful but sometimes
the green eyed monster?...low self esteem? gets me. Thanks for the vent!!!!

By Trina~moderator on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:14 pm:

I have never understood the "keeping up with the Jonses" thing. We have always lived within our means. Certainly NOT worth going into debt just for the sake of appearance and/or prestige.

By Momaroze on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:17 pm:

Yeah, I think most of us have those feeling on occasion. Myself, I tend to like and live the more frugal way. I am grateful, thankful and happy just to own our home (which is not the nicest by the way), have a decent car & truck to drive and live on lots of land (privacy). I feel very blessed with what we have, alot more than most people. We have also worked very hard for what we have got. I don't care if I drive the nicest vehicle or live in the nicest house. So many people are living beyond their means these days. What good can come from it. I would rather have "peace of mind" than have to worry about how I am going to pay the next bill that comes in the mail. I don't get this keeping up with the Jones's thing.

By Momaroze on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:21 pm:

By the way Anon, it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Be proud of yourself.

You are doing a good thing for your children too. I mean your future is their future too.

By Karen~moderator on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:41 pm:

I've never felt inferior for having less than some people, though there have been a few times when I felt envy. I am who I am, and I have worked hard for what I have, and I know, down inside, what I have or don't have doesn't make me who I am, so what someone else might have, no matter what their attitude is, doesn't make me feel they are superior. Material things don't make you any better or worse than the next person, and you certainly can't rely on material things to make you happy. That has to come from within you.

It doesn't necessarily drive me nuts to see people *keeping up with the Joneses*, rather it makes me sort of sorry for them, that they feel they have to do that.

By Eve on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:43 pm:

Whoa, a $100,000 in debt! I feel SOOO much better about my CC. LOL!

You know,I don't get it either! I mean, I think if you can afford a great house and are doing well, then that's wonderful! But, I also believe that where you send your kids to school and what kind of car you drive, does not make up *WHO* you are. Are you a good friend? Are you a good Parent? Are you missing time with your kids because you are off paying for that expensive school?

Believe me, I know where you are coming from. We live in sort of a snooty area and I laugh when I hear stories of Mom's spending the night in the parking lot of the "best" Preschool just to get their application in first! Crazy!

Anonymous, just remember we are all in different places in our lives. I have friends that do very well, and also some that are barely making due. Just think how boring life would be if we were all the SAME!

By Mommyathome on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:44 pm:

Growing up, my best friend had parents that just had to "keep up with the Jones'". They had EVERYTHING they wanted. They ended up in bankruptcy, lots of legal problems, and now live in a very modest home over by the freeway in a not so nice area. When I get a little too *I wish we had that....I wish we had this*, I think of that family and that really puts a halt to it.

I'll be the first to admit that I like nice things. I want my kids to grow up with nice things. Of course I know that a good, strong family is most important....but, I would like to have the perks too. Given a choice though, I would pick a healthy happy family over ANYTHING material offered to me.

We live within our means, and we always have. Everything we have we have gotten on our own. We haven't had any financial help at any time from anyone. We feel proud of that.

Peace of mind is priceless.

We do have goals that we set. We are currently working on the "building a house goal". It will take time, but we'll reach it eventually.
We recently bought a new entertainment center and TV. We really shopped around for the best prices, and then saved up for over 2 months to purchase it with cash. It's great to know that we don't owe anything for it

I agree with Trina.....it's not worth going into debt just for the sake of appearance. In the end....is it really going to matter?

By Cat on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:53 pm:

You also need to look at the kind of example that sets for your kids. Do we want our kids thinking *it doesn't matter how much I owe as long as I have all the cool toys.* I don't think so. Kudos to everyone for staying within their means.

By Tink on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 02:59 pm:

Unfortunately, this is something I have had a big problem with. My husband and I are both fairly young, but we don't own our house and we are a one-car-family. It's really all we need since if one of us is at work or running errands, the other is home with kids but I still hate not having it b/c everyone else does. It's terrible, I know. We are certainly able to keep a roof over our heads and there are very few things our kids haven't done because of the $ but most of our friends are older and they do own homes, have their kids in private schools and several extra-curricular activities, and do large family trips each year. My oldest is in public school because we live within the district of the best elementary in our district and my ds will go there next year. One group[ of friends is very easy-going about the differences in our lifestyles and we enjoy spending time with them but I've recently cut off a (very unhealthy) friendship that I'd had for almost 10 years because she always brought up the fact that we chose to spend our money on different things. They are thousands of dollars in debt (we have none), and we are spending alot of time with our kids while they have their son in daycare 12-14 hours each day and I feel inferior! Karen, I wish I had more of your attitude but for now I am one of the people you feel sorry for.

By Amecmom on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 03:15 pm:

Tink and Anon,
Just think down the road. When they are still working to pay off their debts, you'll be retired with savings. They'll be working and you'll be at leisure.
Ame

By Cat on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 03:26 pm:

I have this printed on the back of my business cards.

One hundred years from now
It will not matter what kind of car I drove,
What kind of house I lived in,
How much money I had in my bank account,
Nor what my clothes looked like.
But the world may be a little better
Because I was important in the life of a child.

Always remember that.

By Tink on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 03:37 pm:

Good point, Ame!
I love that, Cat. I have a coffee mug, gift from the kids, that says that.
I guess I just worry that we'll always want more and, I think, there's a lot to be said for being satisfied with what you have. I'm not and I hate the dissatisfaction. Both my parents and FIL have plenty of money and would be more than happy to help us out but we have refused. There are times I regret that and think that pride has gotten in the way of us owning a home (my current goal.)

By Ladypeacek on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 03:38 pm:

Well i admit that when i was just getting out on my own around 18 or so it did matter, it mattered alot, and i got in debt! Well now i am 27 and we got all our bills paid off and don't intend on getting more! We have 2 cars, both old BUT paid for! Yes, i would love a new car but right now i like to spend the money on outings with my kids! We could probably still afford that new car with the outings but it would be just paycheck to paycheck again! We don't own a house, we are military and they have base housing which is good enough for me for now! Sometimes i wish we haad bunches of nice things but it will come and we will be proud cuz when it does we won't owe anyone anything!

By Palmbchprincess on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 03:38 pm:

I'm right there with Anon and Tink, I'm now feeling silly for the things I "had to have" since changes in my life have left me struggling and in debt. Now that I'm happy with my family, and can see what is important, I resent the things I have, but don't need, like my truck. I'd much rather give those things in my life up and not struggle so much financially. That said, struggling in a family that is loving and supportive beats having money in a horrible relationship any day. Does that make sense?

By Trisa on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 03:53 pm:

Yes that makes total sense!
I agree with all of you.
Money is not what matters the most in life.
I also am not one for being in debt.
I have seen what it can do and have even
seen people lose everything they had.
In fact we are looking for a home right now
and I REFUSE to be house poor and buy some great
big house that we can just afford so we look like
we have more money than we really do! I would
not even mind living in a townhome if it were in a nice area. When I am old and look back on my life and the stuff people seem to think are soooo
important will not matter AT ALL!

By Karen~moderator on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 04:03 pm:

Tink, putting it that way makes me feel awful for saying it! LOL! I didn't mean it to sound like I feel sorry for people who do that, I just meant that I'm sorry they feel that way. Is that the same thing?!?

It's easy to look at what other people have and wish you had it too, and often go out on a limb to get it. But, many times, when people get the big house, the nice cars, etc. they aren't happy with it anyway.

As the Sheryl Crow song goes, *it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got*.

By Coopaveryben on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 04:22 pm:

I have to say it has never really bothered me, but last week I was on a field trip and riding with one of the moms I have gotten to know really well. She was talking about all the cruises they went on last year (2 disney, 2 carnival, and one alaskin cruise) and I felt a tinge of jealousy I have to say. But then I have to talk myself down and I take pride in what I have and it may not be as nice as what other people own but it suites our needs. We make a big sacrifice for me to be at home with the boys and I know those returns will be much better than a large house, nice vacations or exclusive school. I won't be on my deathbed mumbling, "I just wish I would have worked a little more so I could have had a bigger house".

By Amecmom on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 04:33 pm:

The one thing that bugs me is that my husband works so hard, but he is a rare breed: and honest lawyer with integrity. Most of his friends are hugely successful - one is spending 100,000 on advertising for his firm, for example. We have a nice house (not the McMansions that are so popular these days) and we are more fortunate than most. But we do have debt. When it comes time to pay those bills, I feel awful, because I know they just put more of a burden on my husband. Especially since we are one income, now that I'm home with my son and with a daughter on the way.
I have curtailed my spending a lot. But that doesn't help with the years that I just bought stuff on a whim because the credit was there.
As jealous as you may be of others that buy more, and as much as it may bother you, believe me, it's easier to know you don't have the latest or the most, but you also don't have a pile of bills to pay.
Ame

By Bea on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 04:58 pm:

I guess I've envied others their ability to have things we couldn't afford, but I never saw credit as a means to satisfy that desire. We started out with very little. We believed in saving for what we wanted, and bought very little on credit. I remember having a revolving account for our first washer and dryer. We have financed our cars, and have a reasonable mortgage on our home, but other than that, we are debt free. We use credit cards for convenience, and record keeping, but we pay those off every month. We simply saw paying high interest rates to have instant gratification stupid. We just waited until we could afford it, and then we'd buy.

By Tink on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 09:47 pm:

Bea, it's so nice to hear from the other end that you are satisfied with the choices you've made. This is the same way my dh and I are living right now and sometimes it is really hard! We only owe on our car and we have no credit cards. That, alone, makes me feel like we are so unusual! I don't want to ruin our credit history on the little things that will make it harder to have the big things (a house) later down the road. But I sure wish I had that big screen TV that I keep telling my dh "no" about! I love gadgets, too!

By Pamt on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 10:34 pm:

I used to be very concerned about other peoples' "stuff" in highschool. I came from an upper middle class family, but most of my friends' families were VERY wealthy (i.e., house featured in "Southern Living," private plane, Christmas in Scotland, etc.) so I always moped around about what I didn't have. My parents always droned into my head, "Well, at least we OWN what we HAVE." It is only as an adult that I truly appreciate what that means and dh and I both have very good spending habits and virtually no debt as a result of similar upbringings. I remember thinking I would just die in higschool because I didn't own a Ralph Lauren Polo *polo* shirt. My parents never would spend that much money on a simple cotton shirt. Ironically, last year I bought a Ralph Lauren swimsuit on sale for dirt cheap. My dad saw it and made a joke about me *finally* get a Polo something and I laughed and said the funny thing was that it didn't matter anymore.

I would much rather own things than be owned by things. We have actually just gone on a kick where we are trying to simplify and I've been reading books about how to scale down and simplify everything---busy-ness, finances, etc. I would much rather live in my simple house with hand-me-down furniture and have my dh home for supper every night instead of him working 60 hour weeks to afford our "stuff." If I worked full-time, we would have a joint income of six figures, but I would rather be at home with the kiddos most of the time and do with less.

I feel strongly about what Bea said; about saving up and getting things. Most 25 y/o's think they should have a house as nice as their parents, forgetting that their parents worked their way up. I know my parents started out in a trailer, then a rental home, and then bought their first house. Now they have a very nice house, but worked long and hard for it. We abuse and throw around credit and pay so much more in interest than we would have if we had just slowly saved and worked for the item. America is such a gluttonous, consumeristic society. Our *poor* are much wealthier than the world's rich. I find it ludicrous that people can receive significant federal and state aid (welfare, medicaid, etc,) and still own 2 cars, TVs, computers, etc. when most of those in real "poverty" are wondering where their next meal is coming from, not if they should upgrade their cell phone. But I digress...hot topic for me Anyway, we Americans want to consume or *have* just for the sake of having. There is usually no joy in our purchases (and really just additional burden) but we feel compelled to own things. If you really think about it, it is all very silly.

I have finally come to a place in life where I am very content with all things material. Dh and I just spent a week living and working with the homeless in Ft. Worth and it makes me realize that I could still do with sooooo much less. When I go to some of my friends beautifully interior-decorated, custom-built homes I sometimes feel a twinge of jealousy. However, I know that they make sacrifices with family time and/or financial stresses that I don't have.

One last thought...some good friends of ours left to become missionaries in Belarus. They could take 8 footlockers for a family of 5 and would buy furniture once they arrived in Belarus. We bought their house from them and they auctioned off everything else, except for a few sentimental items stored with their parents. When you watch a family sell EVERYTHING, inc. their dog, and really end up with comparatively little cash as a result, it leaves a strong impact with you. As for me, I think I'll work on storing my treasures as heaven.

Hang tight Anon!!! You're making smart choices and your kids will one day benefit greatly from it.

By Happynerdmom on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:27 pm:

Amen, Pam!! Thank you SO much for posting. I agree 100 percent, and you put everything so beautifully.

By Bobbie on Tuesday, April 27, 2004 - 11:37 pm:

Most people I know live beyond their means. And it doesn't matter their income. I have things I want in life and I will get them in my due time... I have struggled to hard to get what I have to go over the edge and loose it all because I thought I needed MORE.... We have so many repo houses in our area. People buying houses they can't afford. Bank down the road always has a parking lot full of vehicles they have repo'd. I will take my old cars that are paid off and my shabby mobile home any day over a life of stress over bills. I have enough to deal with don't need that too.

The thing that bothers me... Is if I say I want something or like something and someone goes out and gets it..... I have had several friends like that. I say something about needing new shoes. DF runs out and buys two pair and then stops by on her way home to show me her new shoes..... I said I would like to get this porch swing (can't afford it right now) DF goes out and buys the very one I wanted... Now that gets on my nerves......

By Janet on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:20 am:

We live in a small town that has a very affluent area with large, expensive houses (for our town, anyway) and lots of "stuff." My 14 yr old will sometimes sigh and comment about how "rich" they are, and how nice it would be to live there, and I am constantly telling her that appearances are often deceiving. Having beautiful, expensive things and yet being in debt for millions vs having a modest home, older car and little to no debt. Hopefully, the message will be driven home by the time she's managing her own money.

By Anonymous on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 11:54 am:

Wow..thanks for all the really great responses. I have to say that the thing that keeps me going is that I know dh and I have made the best decisions for our family. When we bought our house the real estate agent tried to get us to buy something much more expensive. DH said, "We would like to be able to go on vacation and buy new clothes once in a while ..this is our price range."And, as far as the school goes my children have thrived and those $$ saved are going into college funds. DH and I both worked our way through college and have gotten everything on our own so while we like nice stuff too we try to be reasonable about it. I guess what bothers me most, is that some "friends" feel compelled to compete in this game you can never really win and then I become a bit envious and think I should join in too even though I know better. However, I am going to print out everyone's responses and reread them whenever the "green eyed monster" rears his ugly head!

By Rayanne on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 12:07 pm:

My aunt is like that. It's ruining her marriage too. But she has to spend money all the time at International Mall (A very expensive mall in Tampa, FL) I don't understand her!!

By Pamt on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:25 pm:

From a book I have, "Timeless Simplicity: Creative Living in a Consumer Society" by John Lane:

The industrialist was horrified to find the fisherman lying beside his boat, smoking his pipe.

***"Why aren't you fishing?," said the industrialist.

"Because I have caught enough fish for the day."

***"Why don't you catch some more?"

"What would I do with them?"

***"Earn more money. Then you could have a motor fixed to your boat and go into deeper waters and catch more fish. That would bring you money to buy nylon nets, so more fish, more money. Soon you would have enough to buy 2 boats, even a fleet of boats. Then you could be rich like me."

"What would I do then?"

***"Then you oculd sit back and enjoy life."

"What do you think I am doing now?"

By Dawnk777 on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 02:41 pm:

We live in a smallish house, certainly not what I would consider a "shack", but it is cozy and it is mine. (DH and I call big fancy houses, "shacks" because they really aren't shacks.

We don't get to take fancy vacations, but really that is my choice, since I want to be around more for my kids.

Kids go to public schools. We drive a Taurus and a Saturn, so nothing fancy.

I'm happy with my life, though.

By Bobbie on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 10:19 pm:

We live in a town with a lot of huge houses. And I have been in a couple because of the kids being friends with the families. They have these huge houses and nothing in side. One house didn't even have curtains because they would cost to much and their money was tight because of the house payment and two car payments. So just because the house on the outside looks great doesn't mean the inside is. Many times it is a front for the short comings in their lives....

By Bea on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 11:57 pm:

In the neighborhood where I was raised there were families that my mother, (who was Irish) called Lace Curtain Irish. She said, "They have lace curtains on their windows, but not a bone to add to the soup pot."

By Anonymous on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 12:16 am:

Anonymous 2
Pam, I really like that story. I haven't heard it before and often stories that illustrate a point make it a lot easier to "get."Thank you.

I went to school and was friends with a lot of kids whose parents were well off. My experience was that an equal amount of the well-off kids and the poorer kids were upset because their parents were working all the time. And an equal amount had families that weren't able to keep up with their spending while some were making responsible decisions. I know plenty of struggling families that make terrible financial decisions. I don't think that bad decision making skills are only a problem of those with big houses. I wish that I had these things now, but that never bothered me when I was younger when I would expect it to. Go figure!

By Bobbie on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 10:22 pm:

Anon#2. This discussion isn't about people spending wisely rich or poor. It is about the green eyed monster. And I doubt very much that any one is green with envy because someone lives in a shack or has a beat up car. So that said.. We see the outside and we make judgements. They have a huge house nice car just got back from a week long vacation they must be happy and well off, I want that too. They live in a shack and have a beat up car and never even had a honeymoon forget a vacation they must be depressed and a foot away from homeless, they are lazy uneducated and I am so glad I am above that. Judgement calls with out any information about the people inside the home. But across the board, you are right, people spend money they don't have and all the THINGS in the world can't give you long term happiness. Because THINGS come and go. Being loan poor causes undo stress over things that only buy you temporary joy. And just because the house is nice and everything seems like a bed of roses for the people inside it doesn't make it is so. We need to learn to be accepting of ourselves and be thankful. Instead of jealous and resentful. I know I could have an easier life but I have made choices that are for the betterment of my family. So what I have I have and what I don't have I don't have by choice... We can't always have our cake and eat it too.