I only have girls, and this has come up with a friend of mine...I want to know what you think. Let's see, how to word this right... At what age is it no longer appropriate to be with your ds, naked (like helping him in the shower wash his hair)? Or have them come sleep with you when they've had nightmares? My dd is 8 and I still help her sometimes with her bath, but my friend has gotten into trouble with her ex because of the above-mentioned behavior (her sons are 7 and 11). Aren't you allowed to do that when you're a mommy, regardless of whether you have sons or daughters? I'm troubled by this, and want some opinions. TIA (Also going anon because of her privacy)

By Mommmie on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 10:13 pm:

My son is 9 and I still help him some in the bath, like washing his hair. I help him dress. He still sleeps in my bed.

He has some disabilities which is why he is not as independent as other kids who are 9. Even so I think it's okay until puberty hits.

By Annie2871 on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 10:20 pm:

My ds is 6 and he has no problem with me seeing him naked. My dh is the one that thinks it is wrong. To be totally honest, when it comes to mothers and sons, I see no reason why a mother couldn't see her sone naked as long as the son is okay with it. There is an age where boys will get protective about their bodies, especially when it comes to mothers. I think as long as the son feels comfortable with it, then it's okay.

I think the reason her ex has a problem with it is, because men can be very private about these type of things, especially if they grew up in an environment where they were taught to take modesty to the extreme. That might be why her ex is having problems with it.

By Bobbie on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 10:31 pm:

Okay, I have not seen my son naked since he was around 6 years of age he is now 11. My DH on the other had has seen him naked (he has had a couple of injuries DH had to tend too and DS had a concern over something he noticed and wanted DH to look at it for him). My logic in having DH tend to him is that he will be seen in states of undress by men his whole life. Locker rooms for example. And Dh knows what should be where when. Now on the other hand. My DH has not seen my oldest DD naked since she was around the age of six either she is now 14. I tend to her needs. I also take care of the girls (6). I personally feel that 7 and 11 are old enough to bathe themselves. In the case of a girl with long hair she might need assistance with her hair. But there is no reason why a 7 year old shouldn't be able to shower by him/her self.

I think it is a personal choice and from family to family BUT I can tell you that my son and daughter would be mortified if the opposite sexed parent were to come in and help them to shower forget about seeing them nude......

By Bobbie on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 10:41 pm:

Let me clarify. We have all seen each other in states of undress by accident (we live in a very small house for 6 people) But we do not set out to see it, meaning the bathing of the oppoiste sex child etc. We aren't hung up on seeing each other naked, my children were rased that the body is what the body is. But as they mature they do not like having the other parent see them in the all natural, like my son would not run through the livingroom butt naked because he forgot his underwear like he would have when he was little. Now he will ask someone else to bring them to him or he will wrap up in a towel or robe and go after them himself. I think their is a bit of a diffrence between a small child and an 11 year old pubescent young man and the way the issue should be handled. JMHO

By Annie2 on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 11:11 pm:

My ds is 6. I draw his bath but he washes himself. He still can play in there for hours. Sometimes I have to go in to make sure he washes and rinses his hair. He has stopped needing me to wipe his bum, completely, about 6 months ago. Which is cool with me.
I help him dry off and get dressed. He crawls into bed, on my side, several times a week. We are "working" on this. But I know this phase will shortly end and I am in no hurry to rush it.
DH has been modest with the girls and they in turn when they have turned about 5. My 8 year old will sometimes "sprint" past Daddy to go to her room to get pjs on because she hates to come back to the master bath to hang her towel.
I cover myself up in front of ds but if he walks in on me by accident, I don't rush to cover myself up. I turn away and finish dressing.
We've just taken this on as it comes. Our kids have let us know when they need their privacy, etc.

By Mommyathome on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 11:42 pm:

Annie2, you described our household perfectly LOL.
I have 2 girls ages 5 and 4. DH still helps them bathe. But, my 5 y/o is starting to take an interest in privacy, so sooner than later I will take over the bathing duties with her. My 4 year old DD could care less about privacy and so daddys chore of bathing will continue on with her!
I have a 2 year old DS, so obviously we aren't concerned about his privacy quite yet.
I would like to take the approach of DH handles the boy...I will handle the girls. I also want them to know that both of us, as their parents can be trusted and confided in at any time no matter how personal the problem is.
DH is usually the "wiper" in our house. But, both girls have been doing this on their own for quite some time now. They know when they need help and they usually call for Daddy.
Anyway...as Annie2 said...we just take it as it comes.

I do want to say that I think 11 years old (boy) is a little bit old to have Mom (or even Dad) helping out in the privacy areas of life. I would probably show some concern there as well. Unless there was an injury or a disability that needed tending too. 7 years old is still "iffy" to me. I've not had a 7 year old yet, and I can't remember when I was 7 LOL. I do remember when I was 11 though, and I would have *died* if my Dad would have seen me naked!! I didn't even like my mom seeing me naked at that point.
I hope everything works out for your friend, and that they can come to a peaceful decision on what should and shouldn't go on.

By Bea on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:59 am:

My youngest was 17 and came home from a camp-out crawling with deer ticks. I made him strip, and scrubbed him down to get those nasty things off him. That being said, under NORMAL circumstances I stared giving and encouraging privacy by around five or six. I think by then they were starting to demand it. I'd be uncomfortable about the idea of an 11 year old needing his mother to wash his hair or in his mother's bed.

By Ginny~moderator on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 06:03 am:

Different cultures have different habits. In our culture, by the time children are 6 or 7 there is a general expectation that they will not be naked or much undressed around anyone of the opposite gender, including parents. And, despite those who practice "attachment" parenting, I don't think it is a good idea for a child much over 6 to be sharing a bed with a parent of the opposite gender, especially if the parent is a single parent and there is no same-gender parent in the bed.

Given the increasing earlier onset of adolescence and all those hormones, this privacy for children much over the age of 6 is probably a good idea. The average age of menses is, I believe, somewhere around 10-1/2 for girls, and I would not be surprised if the onset of adolescence for boys is about the same. Children have enough problems sorting out their feelings about their parents, same and opposite gender but especially opposite gender, without throwing into the mix situations that have potentially sexual connotations, especially as they approach and enter adolescence.

One of the tasks of parenting is to teach our children to expect privacy in their bodies, both for their own protection and because our societal norms are set on bodily privacy. This includes privacy from parents. An 11 year old and even a 7 year old ought to be able to bathe and wash his hair without help from anyone, and with just a quick checkup from mom afterwards.

I also suspect that your friend's sons' friends mostly are not ever nude around their mothers, and do not get into their mother's beds, because this is our general cultural expectation. I think it is unwise and unfair of her to continue this behavior - especially given her ex's taking advantage of it.

The situation Bea describes is an understandable exception, of course.

I don't for a minute think there is anything wrong going on or that anything wrong might happen, but I do think your friend is not conforming to our general cultural expectations, and I think this can create problems for her sons. Obviously it is already creating problems for her. If it were me, I'd urge her to no longer allow situations where her sons are nude around her and, if they need comforting for nightmares, to give it sitting by the son's bed holding his hand, rather than taking him into bed with her.

I have three sons, no daughters, and became a single parent when my youngest son was about 7 and my oldest about 13.

By Mrsclark on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 07:49 am:

I personally feel it is a personal issue. It is up to the individual parent/child and what they are used to. As long as nothing goes on (which I am sure isn't) I see no problem. Unfortunately, in today's society, working in law like I have, there are TONS of suits and people trying to find reasons to take kids, etc., etc., to where some places in the U.S. you can get someone to call Child Welfare on you of sexual abuse if you hug your son! That is a FACT and makes me sick. They say to be safe, not to kiss your son in public. Well, they can just hang it in my opinion. I am a loving mother, my ds is 17 and I still want a hug. There are those that do abuse this. I feel unfortunately it is usually men who abuse kids, although I'm not saying women do not. I think it is very sad. But a mother is just that, a MOTHER and we are loving by nature and nurturing and that's what we were made for. Therefore, I feel a mother's love and affection (motherly) is very, very necessary and needed for boys and girls. I have never thought anything other than, oh, I love him, how cute his little butt! NEVER any sexual feelings. To this day, should I see it (which I have not in YEARS, I would still think, oh, how cute, that little butt! That's all. Yep, I do think kids need their mother's love...at any age. My dh was sexually abused by his MOTHER and stepdad. Made me just sick to hear the stories. Wish I'd known before we married...it is hard to deal with knowing this. It made him different than any man I know. Very hard emotionally to be close to, etc. He just sees things differently than most. He has very odd thoughts about sex, etc. Long story... I feel his mother ruined him. I was a single mother for over 10 years, my ds is 17 and all boy (man!) and very much a regular kid. His grandmother swore he'd be gay if I didn't marry again (my ex's mother!) and yet he is just fine and definitely not gay. Hasn't had sex, doesn't want to until marriage, but is all boy. Okay, sorry so long, but this is something I really get upset about. If you are a good mother, LOVE you kids! I can tell the mother's on this board are doing that.

By Blueridgemom on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 08:33 am:

My son is 6 and has just recently begun to show some signs of needing his privacy. The kids' bathroom is kind of small and there is no room for a hamper, so I have always told him to undress in his room where he can put his dirty clothes in the hamper, and then to the bath (naked down the hall). But he has recently decided this is not good so I let him undress in the bathroom now, and make him carry his clothes to the hamper. Maybe I should buy him a little robe LOL

Anyway, I believe this is an individual issue and at the point the little boy begins to show the need for privacy, I think it is important to respect that. It shows him consideration for others when you show consideration for him. :-)

By Blueridgemom on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 08:36 am:

P.S. I believe your friend's ex is being a jerk, and just using this issue to get under her skin. Assuming there is nothing inappropriate going on, just seeing your boys naked is not in itself wrong. By 11, however, I have to believe that a normally functioning kid can take care of his own hygeine, IMHO. A 7- yr old may need help from time to time washing his hair and whatnot.

By Tonya on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 11:39 am:

Timmy is 5 1/2 and I still see him naked he has no issues with it so why should I. When he starts having problems with me seeing him in that state then his dad will have to handle things but right now it is whoever has a minute to help with the bath or shower or whatever.

I think it should just depend on the person/child involved and whatever they are comfy with.

Sounds liek your friends EX is a real A@@.

By Cat on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 11:53 am:

I also think this is a totally person issue that depends greatly on the child. My boys are 8 and 10 and they sometimes still ask for help rinsing their hair (not often, but occasionally). For the most part they bathe alone without help. Sometimes Robin can be incredibly dependant, though (wanting me to help him dry off and get dressed--but he'll still try to "cover" himself up)! They haven't seen me naked/undressing for a long time--probably since they were 4 or 5. They don't come in the bathroom while I'm in there and they know if my bedroom door is closed to knock.
I also have absolutely no problem letting them sleep/lay in my bed if they need to. Randy hasn't asked in a long time, but Robin has some issues and sometimes has severe separation problems and anxiety. We have compromised and if he is having trouble sleeping in his own room (the boys rooms are in the basement--we're on the main level) he's allowed to sleep in the guest room which is next to ours. He did this last night because the night before he had a bad dream (and was up at 5:15am!!!) and was anxious about having another one last night. Dh and I don't particularly like the kids sleeping in our bed, only because of the space issue. Robin's not so bad, he just cuddles up next to you. But Randy ends up sleeping sideways between us! lol Like I said, it's a personal thing. When Dad's gone the boys love camping out in our bed. It's a king so there's lots of room for one adult and two kids. It's a pain, thought 'cuz I end up in the middle (both want to be next to me) and then I can't get out without waking someone up. They're blanket hogs, too. I figure in a few short years they won't want anything to do with me, so I'm going to enjoy them wanting to cuddle for as long as possible. JMHO

By Debbie on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 04:37 pm:

I have two boys - 5-1/2 and 3-1/2. I still help my 5-1/2 yr old with his bath some nights. Dh usually does the baths, but when he is out of town I do it. Now, my dks usually don't see me naked anymore. Sometimes they will walk in on me. My 5-1/2 yr. old will just talk away and I have to tell him. "Hello, let me get dressed and then I will talk with you." Usually, though they do not see me without clothes. However, when they do, I don't think they even notice!!! Both of my boys, like to sleep in their own rooms. However, on the rare occassion that they want to sleep with us, we let them. It usually happens when dh is out of town. We all have clothes on, so I see no problem with it.

I think it really depends on what everyone is comfortable with. Sounds like your friends ex is just trying to start trouble.

By Kim on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 09:07 pm:

I didn't read all of the responses, so pardon if I repeat. My ds is almost 10. We all see eachother in underwear sometimes, not on purpose. Small house. But never uncovered (also have two dds) BUT, when ds has a problem I HAVE to look at him to help him solve the problem. I have no male figure to do that for me. I have always been open with my kids and he isn't embarrassed, just slightly uncomfy, but I reassure him that it is ok because I am his Mom and he might need to see a doctor. Other than the occasional rash or something, it's hardly an issue. He stopped going in the shower with ex and I when he realized Mom and Dad were different.....maybe 2.5? DDs I bathed with longer, but not for much.

By Kim on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 09:08 pm:

OH, a PS.....I did help him in the bath until he could shower on his own.....maybe 5 or 6? But he hardly needed help, just instruction.

By Anonymous on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 11:25 pm:

Well, thanks for all your comments. Actually, what MrsClark described is what's going on--it was strange you should mention the hug because my friend's ex is accusing her of sexual abuse because of the hair-washing thing and a hug (she was in her underwear at the time). It's so sad. Maybe my friend hasn't used the best judgement, but I still think a mom is going to be a mom, regardless of whether she has boys or girls.

By Hol on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 01:42 am:

My adopted DS's are 15 and 16. They came to us in August of 2002. They had spent most of their lives in group homes, after being removed from their Mom at ages 6 and 7, respectively. They were sexually abused by their mother's husband. (Not their Dads).
They have a lot of issues, because of the abuse, especially regarding men, and affection from them. My DH had a hard time gaining their trust, and even now, he has to let THEM approach him for a hug. One day, recently, they were playing Playstation, and DH playfully came up behind one of them, and flicked his ear. DS got very angry, and said that he does not like ANYONE touching his ears. (The boys have scars on their faces, where they were burned with cigarettes).
Both boys attend weekly counseling with a specialist in sexual abuse. (A man, and a WONDERFUL guy). They will ALWAYS carry scars from what happened to them, physical AND emotional. One of the issues that has been dealt with in counseling, is, because a MAN was the perpetrator of their abuse, does that mean that they are GAY? (Their question, not ours). Rob, their counselor, has explained to them that gay men prefer sexual relations with other gay men. That, men who prefer CHILDREN, are PEDOPHILES. There is a BIG difference! The boys are getting more comfortable with that understanding, and do love DH very much. I've told him, that he has an awesome responsibilty, because the boys never KNEW their OWN Dads, and the one father "figure"that they DID have, ABUSED them! They REMEMBER having a Mom, even tho she LET what happened to them, happen. I have borne the brunt of their anger toward her, because I represent the Mom who didn't keep them safe. However, THAT is getting a lot better, due to the counseling, too.

BUT.....I DIGRESS!! In answer to the original question....my younger one really was not taking a proper shower. He would be in and out in three minutes, and sometimes his hair wouldn't even be wet! Before the day was out, he would SMELL!
He said that in the group homes, because there were so many kids, everyone got three minutes to shower. I explained to him, that here, we have no restrictions on hot water, and that you can take as long as you need to get really CLEAN. He ASKED ME if I would come in and sit on the toilet cover, with the shower curtain closed, and "talk" him through how to take a proper shower. I guess he felt threatened to ask DH, because of his fear of men.
He did very well, and he now knows how to get himself very clean, and to smell good.
When you adopt children at this age, in many ways, it's like having small children again. They have missed so much, that you took for granted with your birth kids. They are learning how to be affectionate, to lie "feet to feet" on the sofa, watching a movie, and to touch feet as an expression of affection. They will now come up behind me and hug me (and even DH, sometimes), or pat me on the head. They are learning to trust.
If there is a MEDICAL problem, neither boy has a problem with showing it to me, as a means to assess whether or not we need the doctor. And when my youngest had his appendix out last fall, he asked me to help him with his "pee jug" in the hospital, when he was coming out of the anesthesia.
As has been stated here, we are MOTHERS, whether they came out of our bodies or not, they are our children, and that NEVER stops. They are forever OUR "babies".