Family Problem. What to Do?
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Family Problem. What to Do?
Hope you'll understand I'm going anon to protect my family.
This will be long. My brother 'Tom' has been married for 16 years to 'Marie'. They have four children. Marie had a rather lousy childhood with a verbally abusive father. She had bad relationships before Tom came along and all in all has bad self esteem. Tom, also, has bad self esteem. They both seemed happy, but it wasn't long before they began constantly arguing and fighting. Marie belittles Tom every chance she gets, nothing Tom does is good enough. Tom is socially inept and his bad self esteem makes him difficult to be around. He compensates for that by being terribly rude and obnoxious. No matter what you make for dinner when you invite him over, he complains. He doesn't hesitate to tell you the food is gross, you are stupid, it was a waste of his time to come. He doesn't know how to act, so he acts completely inappropriately out of nervousness and fear. Tom does try to help Marie by cleaning the house (and I mean CLEANING, such as mopping the floors, cleaning the toilets, etc.) and watching the kids, but as I said, it's never good enough for Marie and she complains and says he's no good. Marie has a lot of bitterness and unhappiness in her, obviously, as does Tom. Marie also acts as though life owes her something bigtime. Seven years ago Marie got cancer. It was, of course, scary for her and horrible. She has survived it, but still deals with it with drugs and occasional chemo upkeeps. It has exacted a toll on her physical and emotional health, naturally. Tom has been terrified the whole time, of course. That is some background.
Now for the problem. Almost from the beginning of their courtship, Marie has hated my mother. We'll just call her 'Mom', shall we? ;o) Mom also was raised in a verbally abusive household and my father was also verbally abusive to her. She's the nicest, kindest lady, who despite her pain all her life, says it was all a blessing because it has made her a good person. Mom has been horribly mistreated by Marie for years now. Marie often calls Mom to yell at her and tell her what a lousy job she did raising Tom and that she is an awful mother, mother in law, and grandmother, and all around awful person. Marie berates her badly on a regular basis. During Marie's cancer my mom was there all the time, shopping, babysitting, taking her to treatments, sitting with her during treatments, etc. For about seven months she devoted her life to helping Marie through this. Marie's own family did not lift one finger to help or express any sorrow or concern. I believe this helped to make Marie angry and bitter that her own family did not care, so the care my mother expressed and offered was not accepted well, nor was it ever remembered because she swears to this day that Mom was never there for her, didn't help out at all.
Some of Marie's calls have been this:
Aside from raising a lousy son, she stunk at raising her other kids, too, because we're ALL awful, except ME!! I have no idea why she likes me, but she does.
She spends too much money on herself when she should be giving the money to Marie and Tom instead. An example of this is her daily newspaper. My mother keeps her heat at 55 degrees and lives in the north. This is because she is so incredibly strapped for cash. She has NO money to spare. She lives on soups and sandwiches, wears clothes from decades ago, etc. (Yes, we other kids try to help her but she doesn't like to accept anything and won't spend it. She turns around and buys US stuff with the money) Despite this frugality, Marie resents my mom indulging in the newspaper.
Oh there are so many more things that I can't think of off the top of my head. Basically Marie calls her about every other month to scream at her for no reason what so ever. She also lives 45 minutes away, so it's long distance and then she yells at Mom that this phone call has just cost her a lot of money. So you know what my mom does??? She sends her money to cover the cost of the phone call Marie made in order to scream at my mother for THREE HOURS. Yes, I said three hours. That's how long they last.
My mother takes it all, and she even believes it all. Nothing any of us other kids says will make her see otherwise. She truly believes she's done these horrible things and is this horrible person. She says when you hear it often enough you start to believe it. Doesn't matter that she's heard the opposite of it from us over and over. I know her bad childhood and marriage have conditioned her to this negativity.
Tom does NOT know ANY of this. Mom won't allow him to know. She doesn't want to hurt him or put him in a position to choose between his mother and his wife. We other kids have had it. We so want to tell Tom what's been going on for all these years and we so want to tell Marie to never ever speak that way to our mother again and to tell Marie just what we think of her and how horrible SHE is. But my mother won't allow ANY kind of interference, even just talking to Marie and leaving Tom out of it. My one sister DID attempt it last year by just talking to Marie and Marie cried and complained to Tom and Tom, not knowing ANY of the history, couldn't believe how mean my sister was and said he'd never speak to any of us again. It was a big mess and truthfully I can see how Tom would be hurt since my sister's attack seemed unprovoked. My mother has actually tried, in recent years to prevent it. She tells Marie she won't put up with those phone calls anymore, and things are somewhat well and quiet for a few months, and then they start up again. Mom will sometimes hang up on her, but that doesn't help longterm either.
What should we do? Mom is 68 years old, Marie is 46. They've both had bad childhoods and difficult, disappointing lives. They've just handled it differently. Marie is free to attack because Mom has never been defended by us, nor have HER attempts at defending herself worked. I admit to anger at my mom for putting up with this for so long and for not letting anyone help since she's not helping herself. Should we intervene? Do you think my mom WANTS us to defend her, despite her insistence that we don't? When my sister attempted it it was a HUGE scene with ugly phone calls and threats.
I said up above that Marie likes me. I avoid her like the plague. I don't like her, I don't spend time with her, I don't like my brother either. They've both made their beds and can lie in them as far as I'm concerned. I've had it with both of them. However, at family functions I am civil, but not friendly so I don't know why she likes me. My siblings think I should be the one to interfere because I might have the most influence. That terrifies me, I'm non confrontational. But if everyone was there to back me up maybe I could do it.
I'm sorry this is so long. I just would so welcome everyone's different opinions. Thank you so much.
Wow, that sounds like a tough situation. My first reaction would be to defend my mom. No one should be treated like that. It should be stopped. She doesn't deserve that.
Just think how you will feel in another 20 or so years after your mom has passed away....I know you will wish that something was said or done in her defense. She has lived a long life, and deserves to finish it out in peace and happiness.
JMHO 
I agree with Robin on this one. I would never let anyone disrespect my mother if I was aware of it. Your mom seems like the typical pushover and it seems to me that she is actually enabling Marie to continue her behavior. I think if the whole family bans together against Marie she will understand that this type of behavior will not be accepted in your family. There's just no way I could stand by and watch my mother get treated this way, I don't care who's doing it. Hope I gave some insight on this. ;)
I totally agree. You need to defend your mother. I feel possibly if you did, and your brother DID NOT accept it...so be it. You said you "did not like him" anyway and was not around them much, however, you love your mother and want her to have more years in her life and have them with less emotional meanness! I would let your brother know what has been going on and that you know he loves his mother and he should not allow it. At least have the calls stopped and that way your mother won't hear the belittling so much. As for your mother believing it, that is soooo sad and I soooo understand. That is a situation I am in. I have heard it so long from a couple of people in my life it sometimes seems real, but then others say I am nice, etc. It is hard not to believe it. I am sorry your father did what he did. Let your mother know you love her and you just won't allow someone to talk to her that way. If she tries to defend it and say it's true...just firmly hold your ground and let her know it is not. I know that isn't much help, but...I do understand her feelings and she really does need someone to help her...don't just sit by and let her die emotionally -- and eventually physically, from it. I know the feeling of dying inside....don't let it happen. She has many, many years of fun with grandkids left!!!!
Thank you for your responses. Do you all agree my brother should be told? Or should it be handled between 'us' and Marie only? See, the problem is my mom is afraid it will force Tom to choose between her and his wife, and most husbands would choose their wife, plus my mom just doesn't want to put him in that position period. Also, she fears losing her grandchildren, too. When Marie makes these phone calls Tom is never around, of course, but the kids are! And my mom can hear them in the background saying "Hang up on Grandma, Mom! She's upsetting you, she's bad! Just hang up on her!" So they witness all this and see their mom crying on the phone and yelling and assume my mother has been the bad guy and is being mean to their mother. They don't realize THEIR mother is the one making the calls and for the purpose of ripping their grandmother apart. So they are already resenting their grandma a bit and my mom fears losing both her son and grandchildren over this. It's a big mess. She has been adamant about no one interfering all this time due to this real possibility of her never seeing or hearing from her son and his kids ever again. If she could handle Marie's torment without it affecting her, I suppose her allowing it to continue wouldn't be quite so bad, but it cripples her emotionally for days after the calls. And she doesn't call us to say Marie has upset her, we just figure it out due to her subdued personality and general deep sadness at times. We all know then and a simple, "Have you heard from Marie??" answers the question.
Mrsclark, I'm so very sorry you've gone through such treatment yourself. Trust me, the whole bunch of people who say you are nice are the ones who are right and worth listening to. A few bad apples who are cruel are wrong and are trampling on your right to happiness. Thank you for taking the time to answer my post when it must have brought up painful feelings for you. (((HUGS)))
Anon, I will think about this later, but right now I'd say (1) - don't tell Tom. He won't thank you, he may not believe you, and it is not likely to help things. (2) Can you get your mom to get caller ID and just not answer Marie's calls, or screen the calls through the answering machine?
Thank you, Ginny.
As if this isn't long enough, I want to add that Tom and Marie have very little money. Both my mom and sister have bailed them out many, many times so that their electricity wasn't shut off, their phone not disconnected, their water, etc. They aren't on any assitance, my brother has a decent job, but they have four kids, expensive cancer drugs that aren't all covered, and they are really bad at managing money. So they are always asking my mom and sister for money.
Also, Marie reamed my sister once because my sister did not take off from work to take care of Marie's other children when she had her last baby. Marie's mother lives right next door, the delivery was normal and they came home in two days. Everyone has to manage when they come home with new babies and still have the first children to care for. It's just another example of Marie's outlandish expectations. Marie hadn't asked my sister to help out, she just called her later on to let her know how lousy she thought she was for not coming up with that idea in the first place.
Marie called MY husband after we were first married to complain about mom and I guess her intention was to get the 'newcomer' on her side. I so wish we had nipped that in the bud way back then. That was over ten years ago. I would have been well within my rights to call her on that and tell her she was incredibly out of line to call MY husband and solicit his membership in her little 'hate the mother in law club', and to say those things about my mother. At the time this happened I wasn't aware of all the previous phone calls my mom had received or aware of the whole problem. I told my mother of it and while on the phone my husband defended everything Marie had to say about mom and she sensed that she didn't have a partner so she ended the call and has never mentioned it since.
Marie is intensely jealous of my sister's money and talks badly about her, too, to my other sister. Basically she has nothing good to say about anyone and thinks nothing of telling us all, some of us to our faces, some behind our backs.
I admit at this point no one spends much time with any of them and it's rather obvious. My sisters and mother babysit my children and we see each other all the time. No one ever babysits their children or visits anymore because when we did, we always got criticized for something, plus Marie and Tom screamed at each other the whole time and Marie belittled Tom terribly and my mother couldn't stand to see that anymore. So while I'd be thrilled to have them all out of my life, this is my mother's son and she loves him. It's not easily solved, I'm afraid.
Again, sorry to be long, I'm just beside myself and would so welcome the varied opinions that can be found here.
Anon ~ I totally agree with Robin!DEFEND YOUR MOM AT ALL COST! When she is gone you may regret it
I know how your mom feels, I worked for a man who degrated women! For 15 years I was told how women are not worth much (this is due to his religious beliefs, not kidding)! Working there 8-10 hours a day, I saw him more than dh. I started to believe it and still have very low self-esteem and self-worth.
Due to Marie's background not much is going to change her unless she wants to change, and maybe a good counselor, it sounds like she has a lot of issues.
I would talk to your brother, just talk to him or better yet get everyone together you, your sister your mom and Tom and Marie, kind of like an invention. Talk it out, she will probably lie, but with all of you there maybe he will see the honest truth.
((((Anon)))) I am so sorry. I was told once too bad we can't choose our family members!
At 68 your mom is not a dottering, senile, old woman. She has all of her faculties, and has the right to decide how she wants to handle this relationship. It is not your place to go against her wishes, and interfere. I'm a VERY STRONG advocate of the 12 step program. The Serenity Prayer is a basic part of this. You can not change..... Pick one Your SIL, Your Brother, Your Mother. As you said about making their beds....It's so true. They are all adults who will act the way THEY care to act. You have no power to change that. You will step in here and cause even more problems.
Advise your mother if you can. Comfort her when this b*&^% calls and hurts her. Help your mother change to an unlisted number. Exclude both of these cretins from any family affairs. These are things you can effectively do. Change any of these people???......not in this lifetime!
Bea,
Those were my words exactly! It is everyone's intent to protect their mother's..just part of human~nature. BUT....she is old enough to decide if she wants to accept the call or not or deal with this woman on any occasion. I am pretty sure your mom is looking at the situation in terms of protecting the little bit of realationship she has left with her son, and that is her right, don't disrupt that. It seems like good intent but truthfully it won't fix anything longterm. Your brothers wife is a true munipulator and oviously doesn't care who she hurts to get what she wants. It is a sad situation with way to many disfunctional traits to try and make anything "normal", and I feel for your whole family. Some people are selfish, self centered and darn right rude, but we can't change them. I would vow to stay as far from that lady as possible and just be polite when you have too. It seems that her family caught on quickly and they learned to stay as far away as possible...very smart on their part! Goodluck
Ditto Bea and Truestori. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Could you encourage your mom to cut off all contact with Marie?? If she did so, and Tom wondered why, he could ask around and find out! I feel for Tom and Marie's 4 kids. You certainly have the choice to not have contact with Marie...or at the least I would encourage you to not engage in her negative conversations. Don't give her any feedback - just an "uh-huh" once in awhile to let her know you are still on the phone ... or better yet...anytime she brings up the negative stuff, you could make an excuse to get off the phone. Don't feed her fire.
My 10 cents
Anon, I agree that your mom is at an age where if she wants to deal with this she will. And I wouldn't go against her and make waves. But I would however incorage her into getting some emotional help for herself. Maybe you can go with her to support her. She shouldn't feel she has to take this from anyone. Sounds like to me "Marie" wouldn't care if you confronted her or not she is the "victim" here and anything you say or do will only back fire. So my suggestion would be to not deal with Tom and Marie but to try to help your mom feel better about herself so that she has the tools to make the choices she has to make to deal with these type of people.
I think the caller id would be a life saver for "Mom." They cost next to nothing and would surely be less money than hour long phone charges for long distance calls. Might be a good option for her.
That is a good idea. If she feels like dealing with her than she can and otherwise she can just avoid the calls.
Stay out of the DRAMA. All parties involved need to grow up and stop being so petty. *mom* is a big girls and can handle her own how she wants to. How do you know *mom* is telling you the truth? It does not matter who was raised how, just stay out of it and have some good nights sleep, okay? Leave their drama to them!!!
I am really sorry most of you ladies feel this way. Especially that mom is old enough to take care of herself. JUST MY OPINION, and I'm not yelling, and I don't want to pick a fight. But if any of you get older and you are in the situation now, you can deal with it now, but wait until you get older.
I have an uncle who lives in Florida, we live in PA. I had a grandfather, who I dearly loved and was a strong man. He had a son who left when he was 16 and is as arrogant today as the day he left. My grandmother passed away in 91. And mom and I took care of my grandfather because we loved him dearly. However, his son would come up from Florida whenever he wanted and unexpectly. He would just barge in and expect to stay with my grandfather. My grandfather was the most Christian man I ever knew and I guess he often wish he would have had a better relationship with his son, so basically because of this way of thinking or guilt or whatever, when his son came up, his son did whatever he pleased and it was SAD!!!! My grandfather went to bed about 10 p.m. His son would go out and stay out until 1 or 2 p.m. My grandfather not wanting to give him a key would try to wait up for him. He wouldn't even tell my mom these things not wanting her to feel bad. He tried to consider everyone's feelings but his own. I was the one he told that he couldn't take it anymore, but yet he didn't have the guts or strength to stand up to his own son. I did step in, I told this man to GROW UP!!!!! We had words in front of my grandfather. We didn't hear from this man for years. My grandfather thanked me, however, it saddened him that his son had never changed, and I mean never. I was there when my grandfather died. My uncle refused to come to the funeral, I even sent the sheriff to his house to give him the news his father died.
It took two years before I heard from my uncle. He sent a letter to me and my mother apologizing for everything he every did. He even apologized to us about how he treated his dad and that he did not attend his own father's funeral. He even attended his own sister's funeral which is my mom and it was a shock.
This is not the whole story. But it is enough to tell when people get older their minds work differently just like the strength and energy they have to get up the nerve to do something.
I have worked with older people and sometimes they try to please everyone before something happens to them, because of the guilt factor, etc. This is not helpful to them mentally or physically but they think it is the best way and do not want to bother people.
Just think about it and hope it doesn't happen to you when you become unable to do for yourself or don't want to rock the boat.
Once again, this is jmho, I've worked around too many older people in these situations
I've re-read your posts and the responses above, and stick pretty much to what I said before, and agree with those who say your mom is an adult and needs to take some responsibility for this situation herself - at least to the point of considering and maybe taking some self-protective measures.
I don't think it would do any good to confront Tom and Marie and would only confirm, for them, their feelings of being abused by their family. If you try to get your Mom to see Tom in a different light, she will most probably defend him and blame herself, and be very defensive.
I again suggest that beyond trying to get your Mom to take some self-protective measures by avoiding the lengthy phone calls from Marie, that you stay out of it. Tell your Mom you are unhappy about the way Marie treats her but you know your Mom has to make her own decisions. As for the children, who are the real victims in this sorry mess, if you can in any way let them know that they are part of your family and can turn to you if there is a need, that would be generous and kind of you.
I do agree with Amyk's suggestion that when Marie calls you and becomes abusive toward you or about another family member, that you simply tell her that you will not listen to such stuff and hang up.
My grandmother, my mother's mother, was a very verbally abusive person. I had been out of contact with her for many years, when suddenly out of the blue - at a time when we were on welfare and really, really broke - I got a letter from her, with pictures of me as a child and with a $50 money order. I of course wrote back with thanks and pleasure. She wrote back saying nasty things about my dad and mom. I wrote back saying I'd love to be in touch with her but I love my parents and if she is going to say unpleasant things about them we cannot be in touch. I never heard from her again. The point of this story is to say that you have to let the other person know what you will and won't tolerate for yourself. You can't control what your mom does but you can control what you do. If it makes her angry, oh well. She is already angry and probably it is better if she is angry with you, since you sound like you can take it better than your mom, than that she be angry with your mom. You may need to warn your mom that you hung up on Marie and urge your mom to simply not answer the phone or screen her calls for a day or two so that Marie doesn't take it out on her.
I agree with Ginny. The way I see this. You get in your mom's business she gets mad at you. If you confront Marie and Tom it is going to be you confronting them not your mom. If they then call your mom to get her side of this and start stuff with her and she doesn't stand behind what you told them she has gained no ground with them and the stuff continues. If your mom was coming to you and asking you to do something then that would be a totally different story. But she isn't she is asking you to leave things be. Missy confronted her uncle infront of her grandfather. Her grandfather although not saying the words himself probably stood there in conformation that enough was enough... The way it sounds your mom would probably "cow tail" to your brother and his wife. Just sounds like it would be one ugly mess with nothing getting accomplished. Which is why you need to give your mom skills to deal with this. Caller ID. Tell her to tell Marie she is done speaking to her if she starts in on her and if she (Marie) wishes to continue to debate then she could surely call you... Tell your mom that when and IF she is ready to put a stop to this you will handle this but until she is ready that you are hear to listen and help her in any way you can. I think when and if she is ready for this to stop then you need to get your other siblings and mom together with Marie and Tom and show then that you are all united behind your mom. Not just a one on one. Marie doesn't sound like the type to care what one of you think but if she knows the whole family has had it she might back off.
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