Stay away from this movie
Moms View Message Board: General Discussion: Archive December 2007:
Stay away from this movie
Okay, so I don't usually go for these e-mail "forwards", but I checked this one out myself, and it all checks out. If you agree with this, share it with everyone you know, if you don't, then just ignore it. But here's the e-mail I received:
You may already know about this, but I just learned about a kids movie coming out in December starring Nicole Kidman. It's called The Golden Compass, and while it will be a watered down version, it is based on a series of children's books about killing God (it is anti-Narnia).
Please follow this link, and then please pass it on. From what I understand, the hope is to get a lot of kids to see the movie - which won't seem too bad - and then get the parents to buy the books for their kids for Christmas. The quotes from the author sum it all up. I'm going to tell everyone about this movie. I hope it totally bombs because we were all paying attention!
Snopes Confirmation
THANK YOU for sharing that with us. I will try to inform as many people as I can. I guess that says a lot about Nicole Kidman, too.
I will read the book first before passing judgement.
I got the e-mail today, too. And I also checked it out by googling other stories. Can't find a thing that disagrees with the Snopes review. The trailer looks like something I'd really like to see. But don't guess I will.
And the stuff that I read said that the first book was not very offensive, but the 2nd and 3rd were the ones that became more strongly anti-Christian. I just read some excerpts but I felt like I'd been stabbed in the heart.
I keep reminding myself that I heard the same sort of stuff about Harry Potter but I enjoyed the stories. But I truly never found anything offensive.
That is fine. Here is a link if you would like to read summaries from all three books in the trilogy. I'd check it out before reading it to the kids, in the very first one, male and female circumcision is explored. And the goal of all three books is to kill God.
Summary of Books
At the top of the page, it has a drop down menu where you can choose the other two books and see chapter by chapter summaries of these books also. By the way, these aren't summaries on a page agreeing or disagreeing with this trilogy. It is simply a study guide from Barnes and Noble for all kinds of literature.
I just talked with my most wonderful 13 y/o about this. I swear this kid is mature beyond his years. He is an avid reader and fantasy is his favorite. He did read The Golden Compass and started questioning it the more it went on. He talked to DH and I about it and felt like it was really conflicting with his faith. We do NOT believe in book censorship, but we also aren't big about reading things that personally offend either. Adam made the decision on his own to discontinue reading the book even though it was a tough decision because he did want to know how the book ended. And that is part of why I love this kid so much! :-)
He said it was very obvious that the book is anti-God (which is humorous in a way since atheist don't even believe God exists, so why be anti-something that doesn't exist). He also said that it talked about God being an angel who became God in the way that Satan was a fallen angel so to speak.
Pam, such a valid point with the atheist author. I agree...why "kill God" if He doesn't exist? Maybe he's trying to be clever and be anti-religion and "kill God" in the minds on earth.
Either way, it's sad that someone actually thought this was a good idea. Someone's going to lose a LOT of money.
We have this book in our house somewhere. Sarah got it in a collection of books she got as a prize once. The irony of it is, that the book was way too old for her, at the time that she got it. As far as I know, no one's ever read it. I know I looked at the description of the book and wanted to like what was inside, but I don't think I've ever so much as cracked the cover on it. I'd forgotten about the book, in fact, until I saw a recent commercial for the movie. I think the book will remain unread now.
I'm a little tired of these campaigns to not read this or boycott this, especially when it's related to christianity in some way. Too many people out there who would be quite happy if I turned my brain off in the name of being a good Christian.
My kids and I will probably see the movie at some point and have a good discussion about it afterwards.
Dawn, I tend to agree. I have no problem being made aware of these things, but I think that when Christians call for a boycott of such movies or books only leads some to become more curious and want to check it out anyway.
I am glad you posted this, Adena. Now that I am aware of it, I have something to tell my son when he asks about it.
Incidentally, tonight we just saw a new animated movie of The Ten Commandments. It stars Christian Slater as Moses, Alfred Molina as Ramses, Elliott Gould as the voice of God, and is narrated by none other than Ben Kingsley. It is a great movie for kids, and tells the story of Moses from beginning to end. (And the music is really good, too.)
It sounds like it's for a mature child who is able and willing to discuss the content with parents. If I had a child old enough right now to read these books or see the movie, knowing what I've read about it so far, I would screen the movie and/or read the book before going any farther. If older child decides to read/see it, then I'm prepared for the discussion that lies ahead.
I think as parents, book censorship should only come into play based on what we know about our individual children. One mom's 13 year old may be mature enough to read the content and discuss it with parents, while another's may have the personality and immaturity to follow whatever they hear. Therein lies the decision to censor at that point in time, and maybe read the book later. It would be like that for any book that has mature content for us, and mature content to me also includes religion and Christianity.
I do want to make the comment that I tried to go back and change the subject of this post, but found you can only change the post itself, not the subject line. I was just copy and pasting from my e-mail, and after I re-read it, I would have preferred to not use that title.
I don't agree with boycotts, either. I simply prefer to limit mature content for my 11 year old right now. And a book that includes circumcision for boys and girls, and getting into the reasoning for it (to prevent girls from reaching that type of emotional release, as it stated in the summaries I read) and then talking about the two discovering physical pleasure with each other, well, that just isn't subject matter I feel my daughter is ready for at this age, even without any of the religious aspects to it.
Well stated Adena, and keeping in mind that I don't have an 11 yr old at the moment, it's difficult for me to imagine encouraging her to read these books at that age as well.
When I was about 11, I wanted to read 'Forever' by Judy Blume. My mom read it first and then she explained to me that she didn't feel I was ready for the book yet, but that in a couple of years we would re-visit the issue. She didn't ban it from me in the sense that she made threats or commanded me never to read it, she just honestly explained why she felt it wasn't appropriate for me yet.
I read it a couple of years later and we had some good talks about it. (It's a first love, first sex type of story.) I ended up getting a lot about of the book with regard to both of those issues that I was coming up on within a couple of years.
My mom let me read Judy Blume, without reservation. I'm not interested in The Golden Compass, since I read that it describes battle scenes in great detail. That's just not the kind of thing I like to read about.
First, the Snopes "confirmation" confirms that the books have anti-religious themes, and that a "watered down" film has been made of the first book. Snopes adds quotes from a couple of authoritative sources. Nothing more. I was intrigued by this thread, and went to Amazon to read "professional" and "amatuer" reviews of the series. After reading about 60 of the reviews, I am inclined to believe that the books probably do have anti-religious themes.
However (and I usually have a "however"), the books are set in alternate worlds - fantasy worlds, not the world in which you and I live. From some of the reviews I read at Amazon, it appears that the "God" whom the protagonists are trying to kill is not "God" as we conceive "God", but rather a superior (not supreme) being who may (I say may because I haven't read the books) have created a world or worlds that are not very nice places for good people to live. Certainly the fact that demons are a normal part of these worlds should be a clue.
Many reviewers say that the books are anti-Catholic or anti-religion (organized religion, I infer) rather than anti-God or anti-faith. Again, I haven't read them so I don't know. But heck, it's easy to hold up the Catholic church as a paradigm of all that is wrong with organized religion. It is the oldest powerful Western religion and has a lot in its history that can justly be criticized - as well as a lot in its history that can justly be praised. Of course, it's always easier to criticize than praise.
Censorship - there is censorship and censorship. I think every parent has the right to censor what their children read and see - heaven knows I serious censored and restricted TV and movies for my sons until they were 16. I was less vigorous about censoring books, at least partly because when a kid is reading a book s/he is using his/her own world to evaluate the book and filter what is read - TV and movies are much more passive and don't involve a whole lot of thinking (imo).
Do I think schools and libraries should censor? As far as I know, this is not presently at issue here. And, to some extent they do already. They have limited budgets and always have to make choices on how that money will be spent. Do I think schools and libraries should bow to public pressure in their choices of reading material - generally, no. The world is a diverse place, and I think schools and libraries should be a place where children are exposed to its diversity (always keeping in mind that children should not generally be allowed to read really "adult" books). And I think parents would be much wiser to allow their children to be exposed to the world's diversity while they are still young and living at home, so that the family can discuss issues and the family's values and, where the topic is one that is contrary to family values, pointing out how and why, and providing their children with an internal framework for evaluating such matters. Protecting one's children from exposure to conflicting values while they are living at home doesn't provide them with the ability to evaluate such things when they leave home *because* they haven't been exposed to them and discussed and thought about them. I think of exposure to other values while adolescent or teen, with parents available to discuss and act as sounding boards, as a sort of vaccination process.
I've read and enjoyed science fiction and fantasy for over 50 years. Generally I delight in recommending science fiction and fantasy to young readers because I believe reading this genre helps young people to develop open minds. I am, however, cautious about what I recommend, depending on the child's age and level of maturity and there are some authors I definitely won't recommend, and most of the time I discuss my recommendations with a parent of the child and point out anything I think a parent might find uncomfortable. For example, John Ringo wrote a number of very good star war/battle adventure books; but he is presently putting out a series in the John Clancy genre - present time adventure/spy/conspiracy stories, that, from the two I looked at (I didn't finish either one) glorify what I consider perverted sexuality, including sadism, masochism, and underage prostitution. So I generally tell parents that while Ringo wrote a number of unobjectionable stories, I'd recommend staying away from him in general.
My curiousity is aroused. I am going to try to get one or more of these books from the library (I'm not going to spend money on them because I have the feeling I may not want to put money in this author's pocket.) Given that I'm a fairly rapid reader, I hope to be able to come back in a couple of weeks with my impression of the books. I am certainly disturbed, in advance, by what is said about circumcision and the rationale for it. And yes, that Pullman is publicy an avowed atheist (more accurately, I think, anti-theist) would certainly color whatever he wrote and may well color my impressions. In general, I think authors who try to write "preachy" fiction - fiction promoting their particular set of beliefs - tend to write not particularly good books, because the books wind up being more sermon than story.
I checked Pullman's bibliography, and he has also written a number of illustrated children's books published, a series of juvenile mysteries set in Victorian England, and other books, mostly "juvenile". So he is not new to the juvenile literature scene, and appears to be a respected author.
Pam, your 13 yo ds sounds like a great kid who has good guidance from his parents - exactly what I would promote as excellent parenting.
"In general, I think authors who try to write "preachy" fiction - fiction promoting their particular set of beliefs - tend to write not particularly good books, because the books wind up being more sermon than story."
I've had a hard time reading Robert A. Heinlein for that very reason. 
However, a good author can explore an issue from a certain POV (say faith from and anti-theist view) and not come off as preachy and really start a reader thinking about an issue. I think that's something in fact that sci-fi and fantasy can often do much better then any other genre.
I have to say that being a sci-fi reader myself, anti-theist, anti-christian and anti faith writings aren't a big shock. There seems to be a large percentage of Sci-fi writers who are atheists.
Well, I'm about half way through the third volume, and I don't know if I will finish it. I would definitely NOT recommend this series for anyone younger than a mature 16 or so, and frankly, I don't recommend it to anyone. There is a "church" in the books, a fairly nasty church which may have had good beginnings but the parts of it we see in the books are full of internal politics, a body fairly like the Inquisition, another body which thinks killing/assasinating people who are heretics is acceptable, and separate plans by the two internally warring bodies to "prevent" the "second fall" by controlling or killing Lyra (the young female protagonist) because according to a prophecy (not a church prophecy, so it's not clear why church authorities believe it) she will be the new "Eve" and can cause another "fall". The church has grown from when Calvin moved the papacy to Geneva - an interesting thought, that ... Calvin becoming pople of what may have been the Catholic Church.
There are a lot of very nasty people in these books. In the first few pages Lyra sees the Master of the school where she lives (in theory, a school at an alternative Oxford) attempt to kill the man she learns is her father by offering him poisoned wine. Lyra forestalls this assassination, and later learns from the Master that he tried to do this because he didn't want Lyra's father persuading the school's governors to give him money for a project. At this point Lyra does not know this man is her father, only learning her history later.
Lyra's mother conceived her by adultery with Lyra's father; the mother's husband tried to kill Lyra as an infant; Lyra's father killed his paramour's husband (Lyra's mother's husband, if that isn't clear) and then left Lyra "on the doorstep" of the school where she has been living, as an orphan. Lyra's mother is part of a conspiring church group (the Inquisition type group - and it's not clear if she is part of it because she believes or because she wants power). She is leading a group that is experimenting with separating children from their "demons", which may be a soul-like entity psychically linked with each person in that fantasy world. This separation, called intercision, causes the child to become dull, unable to think or act independently, and eventually die. In fact, whenever a person dies or is killed, that person's demon dies, and vice-versa. Lyra's mother wants to kidnap Lyra and turn her over to the church authorities who want to either control or kill Lyra. The mother uses psychic powers through her own demon to control other people and make them turn against what they believed or violate their oaths of loyalty.
Lyra's father has no use for Lyra, until he discovers she has something useful that might further his goals. Lyra's father is definitely opposed to the church and is, in that worlds' terms, a non-believer. He is planning to try to kill the "Authority", which may or may not be the creator - that isn't clear. Also involved are a bunch of "angels", some of whom revolted against the Authority centuries ago, and the angels are on different sides, some supporting and some attempting to do away with the "Authority". So far I can't tell if this "Authority" is or is not God as we/I think of God; at one point there's a throwaway idea that the Authority is sleeping and some being called the "Regent" is actually running things.
Lyra finds out, through her father, how to travel to different worlds. Her father makes the bridge between worlds by using the power generated by him murdering Lyra's best friend - he at first thought he would have to kill Lyra but because her friend was with her, he was able to "spare" Lyra. Lyra then meets Will, who lives in what appears to be our world and who develops the ability to spot windows between worlds and move between worlds. Will comes into possession of the "subtle" knife, which can cut windows into any world, and the bearer of the subtle knife can also close the windows behind him; sometimes a bearer or someone else fails to close a window and there is speculation that this is how the specters got into the world they are terrorizing. This is a world where "specters" drain all thinking ability from adults, the theory being that the specters feed on the adult ability to focus and pay attention, but leave children alone until they reach some level of adulthood. This world is full of orphaned children who are essentially in wild gangs and who have no sense of law, order or morality.
Yes, there are tribles of witches, all women, and all of whom reject belief in the Authority and have their own gods, and who have some magical powers. They become involved, mostly on Lyra's side, and on the whole are among the least nasty of the various groups in these books. The "gyptians" (gypsies, who historically were called Egyptians or, in slang, gyppos) are also involved, also have their own culture and their own gods, and are strongly on the side of Lyra and what they believe the prophecy says about her.
There's a lot that isn't clear in these books, and I don't think much of the plot, if there is one. Mostly it's a series of escapes from danger of one kind or another for Lyra, various friends or aides of Lyra being in danger or being killed along the way, and lots of nasty people trying to do nasty things - some "church" people and some anti-church people. Personally, I think if a writer can't develop a clear plot and end goals for the story by the middle of the third volume, s/he isn't much of a writer. Several nasty people are thrown in for no reason, their presence and the events in which they are involved doing nothing to take the story forward, just being little side-trips of nastiness.
Pullman says he is an atheist, or at least an anti-theist. He certainly has no liking for organized religiion - that is clear. On the other hand, I know a lot of people who very strongly believe in God - the God of the Christian bible - who are strongly against what they called "organized religion" (though most grow out of it by their mid-2os.)
These are, however, books filled with nasty people and very nasty events, with some people torturing or killing other people in promotion of a particular political or possibly theological belief, and people who use children as tools, experimental subjects, or just treat them as disposable objects. I don't much care one way or the other about Pullman's personal beliefs. I very much resent that he has used his credentials as a creator of children's books to write this very unpleasant series of books.
I do think that the Sparknotes summary for which Adena provided a link reads much into these books that I don't see. Is the "dust" original sin - hard telling. Some in the books appear to believe so. Is the "Authority" God, or god? Again, hard telling - some in the books believe so, and then, there is the "Regent" - is the "Authority" (or God or god) sleeping?. I consider myself a fairly intelligent person with more than the average person's interest in and knowledge of theology and history, and I don't see as obvious the linkages that the Sparksnotes set forth.
On the whole, if I hadn't volunteered to read these books and report back, I would have stopped before the middle of the first volume, for the reasons set forth above. As for a movie based on the first volume, I can understand why some producer would want to make a movie with intelligent armored bears, witches, and, oh yes, tiny people much like fairies or pixies, alternate worlds, and the like. There will be lots of action, lots of hair-raising adventures in which Lyra barely escapes death and in which lots of other people get killed, lots of scope for computer animation - but, not much plot, not much meaning, and, I suggest, not something I'd take my children to. It will certainly have Nicole Kidman prancing around with her belly and other parts of her anatomy hanging out. It would be the kind of movie I banned for my sons before each turned 16.
Thank you very much, Ginny, for volunteering to read these books and report back. I knew that you, of all people, would give an unbiased report to us.
Did anyone see that the Today Show spotlighted this book for its Book Club for Children? Two elementary classrooms read this book and now have free viewings at a local theatre.
Being a very stubborn person, I went back and read the last half. Lo and behold, Lyra's mother and father suddenly become good people and want to save her. Lyra and Will fall in love, of course. For reasons which are unclear to me (Lyra wants to apologize to her friend whom her father killed, for leading him into danger), Lyra and Will go to the "land of the dead" and find a way to release all the dead people (in some sort of limbo kind of place) into a real world, where they "dissolve" and become part of the world. Lyra's parents meet up with the Regent and manage to kill this being, who appears to be an evil angel (perhaps Satan) who has imprisoned or made ineffective a rather senile being who may be the creator. Somewhere along the way Lyra and Will run into this senile old being who may be the creator, and free him from his imprisonment, whereupon he dissolves and becomes part of the world. Lyra and Will have some other adventures, and eventually learn that the "dust" is created by the thought, creativity and inventiveness thinking of humans, but that there is a finite supply, and it is being depleted because of all the windows the subtle knife (remember that thing) has cut between worlds. They finally decide that all the windows should be sealed, except the one that enables the people in the land of the dead to escape that limbo and become part of a real world. Because neither can live in the other's world without gradually fading and dying an early death, they decide to separate, and to go on and live good lives.
A surprisingly "happy" ending, one that pulls all the pieces together for the good of humanity and all beings. The church reforms, will all of the plotters suddenly becoming confused and being put out of power. And they all live happily every after, with Lyra and Will coming once a year to a place that exists in both of their worlds, to think of each other in memory.
And frankly, an ending that doesn't make much sense, in light of all that has gone before. I do believe that some people have a "road to Emmaus" experience, but for so many bad people to suddenly become good people, and for everything to tie up so neatly - nah. These are poorly written books, with a plot that wanders all over the map, a plethora of villains without much motivation, and some heroes equally without discernable motivation. I still would not recommend them to anyone, let alone young adults, who can get caught up in the action and not see the contradictions.
I think if Pullman intended to write an anti-theist series, he didn't manage to pull it off. There is too much adventure, too little thinking, and no good explanations for too much of what happens.
And I do wonder how Nicole Kidman is going to pull this off. Lyra is all of 12 or 13 when the story starts, and perhaps 15 when it ends. That's going to take a lot of makeup artistry and maybe, as they did in the good old days, a gauze screen over the camera lens.
That just doesn't sound like a very pleasant read. I think I'll pass and go check out a Debbie Macomber book tomorrow, which I would much more enjoy reading, since it's not so violent and evil.
I know that I read the back of the copy that we have, when we got it, and maybe once or twice, tried to read it, but it's just not my genre.
Ginny, I really admire your perseverance and the fact that you read these books rather than accepting judgements second-hand. I certainly couldn't have made it through a book--much less a trilogy--I didn't like. In fact, I didn't make it through Pullman's books a few years ago, but your comments bring alot of it back to my mind, and I mostly agree with your assessment.
Up until a few years ago, our DD considered herself the protector of her younger brother's literary psyche. (Sometimes she was a bit of a pain in the neck about it!) She read and liked the Golden Compass series well enough when she was in her early teens, but didn't recommend them for her brother. She allowed us try them, however, and DH read the first one or two of the series out loud to DS(then apx 14) and me during our family reading time. After awhile, with so much complication in the plot and so little warmth in the characters, we just didn't care what happened next and switched to other books. I kept waiting for some kind of resolution to the moral & emotional emptiness of the adult characters, but it didn't happen.
Incidentally, DS (now 17) still insists on "Reading Time." We're currently re-reading the Chronicles of Narnia for about the fourth time.
Unschoolmom, I agree with you about preachy writers writing not-so-good-books. (I think Lewis gets preachy in the final Narnia book, but we like him anyway.) We feel that reading lots helps you not be swept away by one author's POV. At least that what we've tried to do with our kids.
Ginny, I read your posts with great interest and I want to commend you for reading these books and giving us an honest review. You went above and beyond - thank you.
I tend to think that most movies that are turned into books have a tendency to be a watered down version of the actual book. Because of all the diverse characters, it seemingly would be a candidate for a movie, and I suspect that is why this book was chosen to be turned into a movie.
Mlee - I am envious of the family reading time you have. I have always wanted to do this but it seems I am the only one interested. I think it's wonderful that your 17 yr old dd still involves herself in this.
Dakota Blue Richards plays Lyra. She's 13.
Nicole Kidman plays Marisa.
That's what I saw in the preview at the movies yesterday.
Shows how much attention I pay to movies. Marisa is the nasty mother of Lyra.
Interesting article about the movie on USAToday.com.
Also a comparison on the left of the webpage between the book and the movie.
Ginny, I too add my voice to the others and say 'thank you' for your perseverence and very concise review. It doesn't sound like anything that I would be interested in either. I know that the Catholic church here in RI has officially condemned the movie.
Dawn, I'm with you. I LOVE Debbie Macomber books. I love the way she develops characters, and the plots are believable, and for the most part, uplifting.
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