I'm so mad!
Moms View Message Board: General Discussion: Archive August 2007:
I'm so mad!
Sorry, I don't want to start a debate BUT, I really don't like pit bulls. Where I live they are restricted animals and MUST be on a leash and muzzled in public. Oh and sterilized.
We just got home from the park where I had my big goofy Golden on a leash with my kids; this was at our local public school. There were two teenagers there with a small Pug and a Pit-bull off LEASH AND NOT MUZZLED! (not to imply that Goldens don't sometimes attack, but the stats are much higher for pit bulls than Goldens for sure)
I was frightened, my dog started to bark and we reined her in right away, the teenagers got their dogs quickly and left the park, both were put back on the leash. I held my baby in my arms the whole time, like that would have been any protection if the dog had decided he didn't like us.
I can't wait until Animal Control opens, however, I don't know where these people live but if I did I would file an official complaint. I can't believe these people would endanger the lives of children and have a dog like that at a public school park. Can you tell I'm still fuming?
We saw them later walking in the neighborhood and they stopped and waited until we were on our way, I was grateful for that but they knew they were in the wrong.
My doctor and her 3 dogs were recently attacked by a pit bull, one of her dogs almost didn't make it and she was bitten as well. When will people learn? How many people have to be maimed, injured or killed? Where are all the responsible owners?
Please if you feel you need to move this post I'll understand, I just need to get this off my chest before my heart popped out!
They were wrong, to have their dog off-leash, but not every pit bull is evil, just as not every golden is a sweetheart. It's the way dogs are raised. I've met pit bulls that just wanted to be petted and I've never had a bad experience.
Ditto Dawn.  Of course, i'm initially leery of pit bulls *because* of the bad reputation but some of the sweetest dogs we know are pits. Matter of fact, my neighbors have the BEST dog I have ever met, and he's an unaltered pit. They raised him as a puppy in a great home and it shows.
Anyways, I guess if I had a pit (which I never would, as much as there are exceptions to the breed) I would probably be a bit more cautious about having him/her off leash outdoors because I know people are deathly afraid of them.
I am unsure what to think about this. I believe that to at least some degree the way a dog is raised does make a difference in their demeanor. There are some other points to think about with regard to dog attacks, as outlined in this article by the National Canine Research Council.
But I have also heard too many stories of kids and adults getting mauled and/or killed by a supposedly docile pit bull. I have even heard stories of the pit bull turning on its owner.
I rarely ever hear of other breeds of dogs doing any of these things.
Just recently, a pit bull entered a home while the family was away and killed one of their 2 dogs. Their house was a mess, with blood all over.
Story Here
About 5 years ago, people we knew owned a pit bull that attacked their 2 young girls.
Story Here
I just have to wonder how much of it really is in the pit bull's genes. I mean, my dog is a natural hunter. She is 6 years old and has caught 4 squirrels, 2 rabbits, and a ground hog in our back yard, yet I have NEVER trained her to hunt.
And despite what one might think about why pit bulls have a bad reputation, it behooves anyone who has one to keep it restrained as it statistically poses a greater risk than other dogs.
I can certainly understand that there are people out there that have not had negative experiences with pit bulls. I've just heard way too many stories to feel comfortable with these dogs. They are restricted animals where I live for a very good reason. Goldens however are not. Still I respect the law and my dog is always on a leash and under control at all times, especially in a public park that is not an off leash park.
Just recently a man had a pit bull off leash in a park that was not off leash and that dog attacked a puppy and tore it to shreds. This was a completely unprovoked attack. The poor elderly lady that owned the puppy was helpless to stop the attack. The owner was unable to contain and control his animal. The pit bull was euthanized. How terribly sad for everyone involved and totally preventable.
I will be in touch with animal control and if I see this dog in the park again unmuzzled and off leash I will call the police. I won't take changes with my children. These dogs don't just bite, they take lives.
Heres my two cents on the subject take it or leave it. I find that your statement is VERY prejudice I can tell you I have rescued and re-homed hundreds of pit bulls and I have never once felt threatened by one. I have had to put down a golden before that had EXTREME aggression. I grew up with the PIt breed and so have my children and I love the breed. With that being said there are some very stupid people out there that have the breed for the wrong reasons. Pit bulls can do some serious damage if they attack another dog. You should of course be cautious, but don't put every pit bull on your "they don't just bite, they take lives" list.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have the law on my side. If that dog is found and the owners at fault it will be put down.
Perhaps this thread should be moved. It was not my intention to provoke an attack, but it appears that is what has happened.
It will be put down for being loose but not doing anything? That simply isn't right!
I understand your fear but the owners reacted quickly and promptly removed their dogs.
Yes--they should not have had the dogs loose. I imagine they thought since they were alone they would let the dogs run a bit. When you saw them again they waited for you to pass. It sounds to me like they had their dogs under control.
I DO understand your fear. My nephew was attacked by a family pet. No, it was not a pit bull. I do not think all pit bulls are bad. I do think it is wise to be cautious around ALL strange dogs.
I am sorry that you were scared by the situation!
This is a delicate subject, yet I'm rather glad it came up because there does seem to be a lot of confusion about pit bulls. I had an experience two weeks ago involving a pit bull. I have been thinking about it since, so I hope I'm not out of place discussing it on your thread, Chai~latte.
My dd and I were over visiting my MIL. My sister-in-law was also there with her three young children. We were all out in front of the house playing on the lawn when a young pit bull entered the yard. She was docile and non-threatening, yet my SIL reacted strongly, and said she did not want her children around such a dog. Her three children picked up on her agitation, and began to cry and run around the yard. My dd and I stood back calmly and I observed the dog. In the meantime my MIL was on the portable phone calling animal control to report a stray pit bull was frightening her grandchildren and they needed to come immediately. The whole time, this pit bull sat quietly and did not react to the children in any way. She finally came over to my dd and I and sat at my feet. At that point, I got down and pet her and talked with her. She seemed lost and I figured thirsty, so dd and I gave her a drink from the hose. My MIL was very upset with me. She did not understand how I could be so calm around this animal much less let my dd near her. I never once let my dd with the dog unless I was between her and the pit bull. This is my approach with any dog I don't know well. I am always careful if my dd is there with me. Yet, my MIL felt I was being a negligent parent.
This has really bothered me. This dog seemed very docile, sweet and lost. This thread has me wondering, do we really know the facts about these dogs? I am a real animal lover, and it's hard for me to believe these animals are born killers. Can anyone shed some light on this subject. I know it's an emotional one, and I think Chai~latte is right, perhaps a good one for the debate board.
When the animal control officer arrived, my MIL continued to stress the children felt threatened, yet I had a chance to speak with him privately and gave him my experience with the dog. He told me he understood the attitude towards these dogs, but assured me she would be given the same chance of being reunited with her owner, or a new home. LOL, I trusted him, but found myself at the shelter two days later to check on her. She was there and even seemed to remember me. They let me in her area and I spent some time rubbing her tummy, which she absolutely loved. I hope she's safe at her home now.
We've had this debate before, and most of us live in towns where pit bulls are restricted, so I think it's safe to say most of America has strong feelings about the APTB. Regardless of personal feelings on the topic, Cha~latte, I'm sorry you had an unpleasant experience.
Nicki, that was so sweet of you to sweet of you to take the time to help that Pittie. If you want to find out more info about the breed www.pbrc.net is a great site.
This is pretty interesting too http://www.pbrc.net/misc/PBRCFamousPitbulls.pdf
Chai-latte by no means was I attacking you. I just think that you are putting the "Pit" breed in one catagory, but you really don't have enough personal info to back that up that theory. I for one should be petrified of Goldens, and I just might react the same you you did If I saw your dog off leash. I'm not going to let the few Goldens that have tried to bite me (one was a full on attack) back up that fear. Again, for the record I have never ONCE had a bully breed try to attack me or any of my volunteers.
Thanks, Shelly. I'll check out those sites.:-)
First, Chai, I don't feel that you were attacked. I feel that Shelly expressed her opinions, as you expressed yours. Disagreement is not attack.
Second, "pit bull" is a general term that is used to describe approximately 20 breeds of dogs with similar characteristics. There is one specific breed, American Pit Bull Terrier. There are other breeds of bull dogs and of terriers that are often, and incorrectly, lumped into the category of "pit bull".
In general, terriers, and certainly American Pit Bull Terriers, and bull dogs in general, are not a breed I would want to have around young children. But, we have a Rottie whom I love to death and who is wonderful with children of all sizes, but I would not recommend Rotties around young children (mostly because of their size). I also wouldn't have Pomeranians or Cocker Spaniels (or spaniels in general) around young children (because imo they are too excitable). But this is my personal opinion, to some extent supported by what I have learned about these breeds, and not in any way a criticism of those who feel otherwise. I know of a family with 4 Rotties and 3 young children, and everyone seems very happy. My parents had 4 Dobermans in succession and my brother had a Doberman while his children were very young - but I don't think I'd have a Dobie around young children (again, size issues for starters, and their very protective - sometimes over-protective - attitude). IMO!
Communities that ban "pit bulls" are reacting much the same way communities did in the past when they banned German Shepherds, and then Dobermans, and then Rottweilers. And if such a community has a couple of highly publicized events of attacks on children or small pets by a Golden Retriever, they will ban Goldies. It's a lot easier and cheaper to ban a particular breed or type of dog than to pick up aggressive dogs and take their owners into court.
In my opinion, the root problem is that many irresponsible dog owners - mostly men - get a dog they describe as a pit bull because they *want* an aggressive dog to demonstrate the owner's "masculinity", and they encourage their dogs to be aggressive. And, sadly, bull dogs in general have the build and jaw structure that makes them very dangerous when they do become aggressive, which is why they have been favored for centuries by those who think it is fun to have one animal fight another.
The issue here, for me, is that the teenagers had two dogs off leash. They knew they were wrong, as their behavior showed. Leash laws exist for a reason, and one reason is that one never knows when a dog will suddenly decide to bite - even the mildest and most easy-going dog you know. The man in the park whose dog attacked another dog couldn't, from what you describe, control his dog. Which is why he should have had it on a leash - though most likely such an irresponsible dog owner wouldn't have been able to control his dog even on the leash.
I can understand your fear of bulldogs, Chai. But, from what you describe, it was your dog that exhibited aggression, by barking and lunging so that you had to rein her in - possibly in reaction to her sensing your fright. If the two unleashed dogs could so easily be picked up, put on leashes, and removed from the park, as you describe, it doesn't sound to me like either the pug or the bulldog was behaving aggressively.
I was bitten by a shepherd/collie mix dog once. It was a dog I had met and petted several times, but this time I bent down and put my face near the dog and apparently it felt threatened. I have since learned that some dogs do feel threatened when you "get in their faces", as I did.
//My MIL was very upset with me. She did not understand how I could be so calm around this animal much less let my dd near her.//
I thought that was funny because being calm is absolutely how you HAVE to be when there's an unknown dog around. Calm, assertive and not fearful or threatening. I tend to think that a lot of attacks are probably the result of people's actions and reactions rather then some character defect of a dog.
Regardless of whether or not my dog acted aggressively is not the issue here. My dog is not restricted, my dog was on a leash, I had my dog under control. A few quick pulls on the leash and a strong "LEAVE IT" and she stopped immediately. I wonder if the young man that had the pit bull would have been able to do the same if his dog had reacted aggressively towards us, I'm glad I didn't have to find out. He did not have his dog on a leash. I would have been leery of any dog not on a leash in the park, well except maybe the Pug.
The other dog under the law is restricted, was not under control according to the law, was not on leash and was not muzzled. Everyone is forgetting that the law here states that the dog must not only be leashed while on public property but must also be muzzled.
Look, I love animals, but I will never put the safety of the public before a dog. And yes, I felt attacked, by being told my statements were prejudged, but in retrospect you are correct I am prejudged against pit bulls but I guess that is my right, even the law is prejudged against pit bulls.
So when Animal Control opens this morning I will call them and make a complaint and if this is not a first offense for this dog owner and Animal Control is aware of where they live, they will be in trouble. It is the owners responsibility to follow the law; if they do not then they must face the consequences.
I really wonder what the reaction would have been here had I come to the board and said, "OMG we were at the park today and a pit bull attacked a child, the child is in the hospital and in serious condition".
Everyone jumps to defend these dogs, but what about all the victims that have been hurt by these animals? What about that poor elderly lady that lost her puppy or the 6 year old child that was attacked and is now scared physically and emotionally for life.
I remember the fear of Dobermans and Shepards when I was a child, in fact I was surrounded by two aggressive Shepards when I was about 7 years old, I was also bitten by one on another occasion. When I was 3 months pregnant with my first child my neighbor left his gate open and his German shepherd got out and bared down on me, luckily I was not attacked. There is nothing that makes me more angry than irresponsible pet owners, they put people in danger. This is why we have laws in place to protect people.
Really what is more important, a dog breed or your children? I don't get it.
This is unfortunately seeming to become more of a debate.
Chai~latte - you seem to be taking everyone's opinions very personally; however, do not want to have yours taken personally. Everyone is entitled to their opinions/feelings and NO ONE is allowed to make them feel otherwise.
You don't care for pitbulls. I'm scared to death of dobermans and was surrounded by them as a child. I have a niece with scars on her face from a golden retriever.
BUT, I don't go around lumping dogs into a category of being bad/agressive/mean. Each animal is different regardless of breed just like each person is different regardless of race.
I think you have misunderstood my comments. I am not taking people opinions personally, well expect being called prejudged which I have now agreed that I am in fact prejudged against pit bulls.
I was simply clarifying my position on this issue which is what other people are doing.
This is not a race issue, this is about dogs. Not a particular race of people. I think you are bringing this conversation to a whole other level, which is unfair.
I will say this one last time. I have the law on my side regardless of whether or not you agree. If you think the law is wrong then it is up to you to try and have it changed.
Just an update, I called Animal Control they don't know if there are other complaints on file as I did not have the people's address.
I have made an official complaint and they will monitor the park, I did also mention the Standard Poodle that runs there off leash and the Pug, just to be fair.
Chai-Latte, please list what PERSONAL experiences you have had with the "Pit" breed. Since you were so clear on what your feelings are against Pits, I should also say what my feelings are against that law. They should work with the owners and not target the breed. Ginny was right on about the breed and I completely agree with her statement.
I think that Law sucks! Total, complete, prejudice.
According to the S.P.C.A. who takes reports on dog bites nation wide, of the top ten breeds of dogs that bite, Pit BUlls are not even on the list. Speaking of news stories, did you hear the one recently of the Chihuahua who ate part of an infants face? I'm guessing no because everyone wants to blow up and concentrate on the Pit stories.
Shelly,
I can see by your comments that this is an extremely sensitive issue with you. It is not my intention to upset you, so why don't we just drop this whole topic. I'm not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.
You asked me to explain myself so I will. There have been too many stories in the local news to say that this does not happen on a regular basis, my personal experience, my doctor who I consider my friend was attacked two weeks ago. Her dog's bottom was ripped to shreds and the dog nearly died. This was an unprovoked attack. The pit bull was not on a leash and was not muzzeled, again, the law where live states pit bulls are restricted animals and must be leashed and muzzled at all times while in public (like it or not) My doctor was bitten. The pit bull was put down. Had the pit bulls owner acted responsibly, that lovely animal would still be alive today. It was not my friend's fault that someone else's dog attacked her and her animals.
I feel that I acted within my rights according to the law. I'm sorry this whole topic has upset you. I'm quite willing and happy to step away from this thread as it appears to have upset many people.
Speaking of news stories, did you hear the one recently of the Chihuahua who ate part of an infants face?
Not to totally change the subject, but where on earth did this happen and where were the adults???
I would tend to agree that stepping away from this thread just might be best.
It is clear that there are strong feelings on both sides and honestly this "debate" is not going to change the situation. Leash laws were broken and the "kids" involved apparently knew that. The breed, although mentioned, is irrelevant honestly. For every breed lover out there, there is going to be someone with a bad story about that breed and we all know that. There are leash laws for a very good reason, dogs (all breeds) will bite, it is in their nature.. "the nature of the beast"
Agree to disagree and move on.
Happy posting..
Vicki, it only takes a second... a pull of an ear.. a food threat.. a screaming child.. You never know what will set a dog off.. and to assume the parents weren't around is likely not the case.
I guess that could be true, but when I read it ate part of an infants face, that isn't what came to mind.
I still would like to read the story and see where this poor baby was.... the floor or what.
I am still undecided, as I said earlier. I want to give the breed the benefit of the doubt. But it's so difficult to do.
Suffice it to say that all dogs should be restrained. And Chai is doing what she feels is the right thing. End of story. I think she really just came here to vent, as we all do from time to time when we get angry.
I tried to find info on the chihuahua for Vicki. I did an extensive search for "chihuahua attack" and also included "infant" and "face" in various order and only found numerous stories about a chihuahua who saved an infant from a rattlesnake. I picked a random link for the story.
Chihuahua story
The Centers for Disease Control did a ten year study of dog attacks in the US from 1979-1998. If anyone's still interested...
The report in Adobe Acrobat
Okay, now on to other things....
Thanks for looking for me. I also tried to find it, but only found the snake story too!
I'm not trying to to change anyone's feelings/minds/opinions about any particular breed of dog, but I will say this: I've owned a pitt/rott mix and a full breed rottie, and they were 2 of the sweetest dogs ever, especially my rottie, but I just could not housebreak her so I gave her to someone who was at home all the time and could give her the time she needed.
Also, I own a husky/chow mix, and I've read that chow chows, huskies, malamutes and shepards are in the top 10 for dog bites, and my dog has never bitten anyone. On the contrary, she likes everyone she meets and will lick you to death.
I was bitten badly by my friend's dog, a cocker spaniel; the dog *knew* me, and it appeared to be a freak thing at the time, but that dog has since bitten 4 other people, my friend included. My bite was the only one serious enough to warrant medical care, and it took nearly 3 months for the rip in my finger to heal. That dog is SMALL and I am terrified of it.
All that said, I realize some people train dogs to attack, and some people look for particular breeds - such as pitts, rotties, dobermans, etc. for just that purpose. I do NOT agree with that.
So I think many of us will have to agree to disagree on this issue. I will say I DO agree that dogs should be leashed when they are not in your home, *unless* they are specifically in a spot where it's not required, and even then, I think each owner should use good judgment, when unleashing their dog. I've taken my dog to the beach and let her run free, but if I saw small children nearby, I'd leash her, not because I'm afraid she will bite, but because she could scare them, or knock them down.
Biting and dangerous dogs come in all breeds and sizes, and IMO, the owners have *something* to do with that in many cases.
Wow, what a mess this thread became.
Karen, I didn't know you you used to have a Pit/Rottie mix, I figured the mix was rare. I had one before I was pregnant, and until the kids were a month old, but had to give her up because our apartment didn't allow large dogs. I'd had her since she was weaned, and she was a sweetie!! As for chows, I was attacked by a family member's chow, but it was the owner's fault, not the dog. I'm not fond of the breed, but oh well!
Chai~ the law was broken, and on that note you are absolutely justified in being angry. I think what some of us are trying to stress is that you shouldn't assume the APBT was the dangerous one, assume that all of the dogs who were not leashed posed a threat. It's hard for those of us who love Pit Bulls to understand why so many are terrified of them, because they base their decisions largely off news stories, often sensationalized. It's not simply the Pit issue, it's how the media blows so many things out of proportion, like we're all going to die of Bird Flu. I understand that the Pit is restricted in your town, but often these laws are made after public hysteria over an isolatedy (statistically speaking) incident. That's really all we'd like people to realize... these dogs are not inherently evil or mean, they are dogs, domesticated versions of a wild creature. The way humans handle them, and the incidents that involve them have given them a bad rap.
My baby "Chowdo" was Chow and Doberman (thus the name). We were informed by our insurance company that Chows & Dobermans were on the top 10 list for biting, so we would not be covered if she did bite anyone (she didn't). I believe ALL dogs can bite. The big difference is how they are made. I mean a chihuahua simply does not have the teeth like an bigger breed. It is hard to have a favorite breed catogorized as mean and viscious.
Just like there are bad people (all races) in this world, there are bad dogs (all breeds).
I agree to disagree on the pitbull issue.
Crystal, the pit/rottie dog I had actually belonged to a guy I was best friends with/dated after my X and I split up. The dog stayed at my house for 2-3 years. His name was Harley D (yes, after the motorcycle....LOL). :-) He was great with kids, a superior watch dog, and the biggest complaint I had about Harley was that he had some sort of skin rash thing going on and he STUNK. LOL
Interesting topic...I truly believe the breed of the dog isn't the issue, its the people who end up owning them. I never realized pit bulls were such the center of negative attention..HOw sad 
Interesting timing on this topic...my ds was bitten by the neighbor's APBT puppy two weeks ago with no provocation. The puppy (11 weeks) ran across the neighbor's yard, into our yard, and bit him on the thigh. Most of the time, I don't lump an entire breed in with one bad example (I AM frightened of dalmatians after being bitten twice by different ones) but in my ds's case, I completely blame the owners. Six months ago, he was bitten by the same neighbor's dog, this one a pug. They also have a Chihuahua that they don't allow around kids because it's so vicious. So they have a chihuahua, a pug and a pit bull that all bite. The common thread here? The owners! They lock the dogs outside all day, we hear them barking at all hours, and obviously they are acting out when they bite other people. Animal Control has been notified about their dogs. I just hope that no one is seriously hurt before the dogs are taken from them.
Tink, I'm so sorry about your son. Is he okay? How frightening.
Poor Seth!!! How is he?
He's doing better than I expected. He's never been a real animal person but he's fine around our dogs. He's a little more skittish around the cat, which did surprise me. The bite was just treated with antibiotics and he'll be fine. I doubt there will even be a scar but I really wanted to have the bite documented since we've had trouble with their dogs in the past. Unfortunately, that left us with a $150 ER bill that I know the neighbors won't pay and it's not worth the fight. They never asked how he was, if he was healing or offered to cover the expenses. In fact, they tried to deny it to the animal control officer that came out to quarantine the puppy and refused to give up the dog until he called in backup to handle an arrest, if necessary. I'm thankful that the owners are held responsible for the cost of shots, spay/neuter charges and microchipping fees. The microchip will keep track of the bites and it will be put down if there is another bite by this dog. Thanks for asking about Seth, ladies!
If animal control came, won't it be a court case? Here if animal control is involved, OR medical attention is sought, it becomes an automatic court case. If this is the case, you should have no trouble getting your $ back.
I am glad that your son is OK! Hugs to you both.
It only goes to court if the victim (in this case, the parents) decide to pursue compensation for damages (in this case, medical expenses.)
Otherwise, the owner of the dogs may have their dog removed from their home. It depends on what animal control decides. They handle these things on a case-by-case basis. It seems to me that the more times animal control is called, the more likely they are to take action and either remove the animal or charge fines. They will, however, remove the animal immediately if it bites and there has been a history of complaints, as they did when my neighbor lost their dog after it bit a little girl in the face and they had been called out 3 times previously for this same dog. (It was a vicious red heeler and she got right in its face.) If my neighbor wanted it back, they would have had to pay a $500 fee. They didn't, and then they got another dog (a beagle.) this dog is nice. But they don't take any better care of it.
In this area, there isn't a court case unless the victim (or parents) press charges. My understanding from the animal control officer is that if there are three dog bites connected with one owner in 5 year period, all dogs are removed from the premises and given new homes or placed in a no-kill shelter. The dog was put in quarantine for 48 hours, microchipped and fixed, and given a full round of shots since a shot record couldn't be produced. The owner must pay all the fees for those procedures and is fined $100. Our neighbors will probably be able to find a loophole in the law if there is another dog bite since there are 5 adults and 4 children in the home so any of them could be considered owners.
Here it is required by law that animal control and/or medical personel file a report (and it becomes a case). When I was in court for the neighbors dog, a man was very upset that his neighbor was charged. Her dog bit his dog but she went with him to the vet & paid for everything. He did not want her to be charged with anything because she did all she could to make it right. The judge said the vet was required by law to report it. That is when she explained that all reports of bites become a court case.
I imagine every state is different.
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