Every time my best friend and I get together with our little girls, hers 3, mine 2, it's a disaster. Her daughter does not want dd to look at her, touch her, hug her, take a step near her, play with her etc.... This little girl is shy and awkward in social situations. We went to their house one time and dd was not allowed to touch any of her toys. Every time she did, the little girl would grab the toy away and by the time the play date was over, she was sitting on her couch and had a hundred toys around her and had her arms around the toys so dd could not go near them. Her mother tried to reason with her the whole time, me - I would have sent her to her room, but whatever. Anyway, every time we get together, whether it be at my house, her house, the park, it's that same old cr*p. "Mommy, she's looking at me" "Mommy, she walking toward me!" "Mommy, she took a step closer to me" "Mommy, she's following me around" "No, you can't play with that toy" etc....... I am getting tired of subjecting my dd to it. On my behalf, I make sure dd shares her toys, I don't give her a choice. I think it's rude to have someone's kid over and allow their kid to treat them that way. DD is a very affectionate little girl and does like to hug, and I realize all kids are not like that so I do my best to make sure it doesn't get out of line. So, my question is, should I cut off having play dates with my best friend and her dd? And, how should I do it? Should I say something, or just not say anything. During our playdate today, I put dd down for a nap because I just couldn't stand it anymore. While she was sleeping, the little girl was just as pleasant as could be. I just wanted to pull my hair out. I think that she really is shy and awkward, but also I think it is a discipline problem as well. Arggggghhhhh!

By Cocoabutter on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 04:42 pm:

I think you have come to the point where you realize enough is enough. Your dd is too young to understand what is going on or why this girl is so mean, and her dd is too young to be reasoned with (I'd have sent her to her room too.) She has been subjected to it long enough.

If you are really good friends with the mom, you should be able to talk to her about your dd's feelings, and how unfair it is that her dd is allowed to act this way.

On the other hand, she may not be receptive. If you want to continue your friendship, leave the girls at home with their dads and go out for coffee or lunch on a Saturday afternoon.

By Angellew on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 04:44 pm:

I think that's horrible and I would hate to subject my DD to that, so I know how you feel. My DD is affectionate and very willing to share, even though she is an only child (not perfect, she has her moments!! ). But, your heart must break watching that little girl treat your DD like that.

If this woman truly is "your best friend", then maybe you can GENTLY say to her that you don't think playdates with the kids are a good idea anymore. She obviously knows there's a problem if she's trying to reason with the child (and I agree with you, reasoning is one thing, but.. ) You have to tell her that it's just too stressful on your own DD.

It's a terrible situation to be in for you. She's a friend. But, how long can you go on like this?

Good luck!

By Karen~admin on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 05:56 pm:

I wouldn't do the playdates anymore. I have 2 thoughts on confronting her - A) If she is your best friend, you *SHOULD* be able to talk to her about anything; however - B) we all know that even best friends are sometimes not receptive to anything at all that they perceive to be cricitism - either of their child, or their parenting.

If you feel you can broach the subject with her, then by all means, I'd talk to her about it.

Barring that, I would discontinue the playdates, and search for another playdate situation for your little DD. If you have to give her a reason, then I'd be honest and say something like *It appears your DD doesn't really enjoy playing with my DD, so I've made alternate plans.*

As for getting together with YOUR best friend, I agree that you could leave the girls with their daddy's and the 2 of you could do lunch or shop or something.

Good luck - I have SOOOO BTDT!

By Sandysmom on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 05:16 am:

Thanks for your input ladies. I think I will try just the two of us having a girls night out.

By Sandysmom on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 08:15 am:

It's sad for me though because I so wanted our girls to get along. I hope that in the future, when the girls are older, things will be different. My friend kept saying that it's a tough age, and mentioned something about a stage she is going through and that she was like that when she was little. I wanted to tell her that, yeah it's a stage, but you help them work through the stage and not let them just continue to act that way, but I know that would hurt her feelings. But it hurts my feelings that she would allow her dd to treat my dd badly. *sigh*

By Mrsheidi on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 08:24 am:

I'll have to add, without reading anything above, that when you have playdates at her house, she is going to feel like she "owns" the toys. I'm guessing she doesn't have a sibling yet and doesn't know the process of sharing. Connor can be the same way, until I stick him in time out until he learns to share. It's funny...he eventually learns that another buddy isn't such a bad threat after all. He's only that way when we have guests over here, so I find her behavior very odd since she is that way wherever you go.

I would try playdates in a setting where you invite another mom along. Your friend might see just how "different" hers is and how other kids are taught how to share. This might also take some heat off of you and trying to get your kid to play with hers. I (and this is just ME) would just bring up timeout scenarios as just conversation and a "wonderful book" you just read (Love and Logic, whatever) whenever there's a non-obtrusive opportunity. I bet she is struggling with it and just doesn't know what to do and is embarrassed by it altogether. My guess is that she doesn't get to have a lot of playdates for her daughter and it might isolate the mom and hurt the situation even worse.

By Mrsheidi on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 08:30 am:

You could also respond with the whole "it's a stage thing" with..."Have you read any books on it? What consequences did it recommend?" I always find that questions help people think about their own situations, rather than saying what we ALL really want to say. ;-) "PUT YOUR CHILD IN TIMEOUT PLEASE!!!"

By Sandysmom on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 08:45 am:

Oddly enough Heidi, she has a sister who is 5 or 6, and they do go to Mom's club activities, and church activities, and she has other friends who have kids that she gets together with as well. I think it's a good idea to get together with another mom along and see if she still acts that way. I recently went to her birthday party and she was like that there too. If I said something, I know it would hurt her feelings. One of her other friends said something to her about disciplining her kids, and she said it made her cry. Granted, it didn't sound like her friend was very gentle about it, but apparently she still didn't get it. BUT, she is a good friend to me and I love her dearly and I don't want to lose our friendship over this.

By Bobbie~moderatr on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 12:06 pm:

My sister watches a couple of little boys, brothers.. The youngest one sounds very similar to your friends DD... In his case, the mother makes/made the 7 year old give in to the 3 year old all the time, at home anything he wanted he got because she is "to tired to address it" and it makes it easier on her. He is conditioned to think everyone else should cater to him too. The seven year old is in school, so when I first met the three year old I assumed he was an only child because of his behaviors and my sister went on to explain to me that he isn't an only child just very spoiled to his own wants... If he didn't get his way he would throw and all out fit. His way could be sitting in a chair someone else was in, only long enough to get the other child out of the chair. Or he would bring a toy, refuse to let anyone look at it and then hoard it and as many of their toys he could to boot. At one point it was really bad and her own kids were starting to mimic the behaviors.. But because my sister has him with out his mom present she has been able to work through many of these issues with him over the year.. He still has moments of, NO it is mine.. But they are getting fewer and fewer. And his mom is finally realizing that this isn't his personality that is a learned trait and that she is partially responsible and that she has to enforce the same boundaries on him as she does her other child. To bad it took her getting pregnant with her third child to realize she better do something on her end of things.. But at least she has come to some kind of realization I guess.

I know this doesn't help in your situation but I can see first hand the issue and the feelings this is leaving you with.

Do you think you may be able to come at her with a this is a fear/concern over my own child and parenting type approach? Tell her that it breaks your heart that your child doesn't seem to be treated fairly at play group, Sunday school or whatever and about how she comes away from these situations sad. Give her situations that happen with her DD but without saying your DD does this to my child. Basically, planting a seed for thought. Maybe, she just isn't personalizing what her child is doing.. Say something to the effect of how would this make you feel as a mom, am I just nuts type of discussion. If she blows you off or basically implies that you need to just buck it up. Then maybe it is time to rethink whether you want her child as a friend of your child or if you need to concentrate on your friendship and stop putting your daughter through this nonsense. It isn't fair but you may never get through to her and some times you just have to count your losses.. If you are coming away upset then what are you getting out of your meetings?

By Kaye on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 12:27 pm:

Here is another view point. Is there possibly something off with her dd? Could she have a mild form of aspergers? I know with my youngest we pick our battles and honestly I don't always notice somethings. But I do tend to take critism a little harsher than I should, sometimes it seems like he does nothing right. I think I would have a conversation with her more like, our kids seem to really struggle to get a long these days, why do you think that is? And see what she says. It could be how her child perceives your child. It is always easier for us to see how someone elses child is making mistakes. She may see where her dd feels "threatened", or whatever.

What I think has to be really clearly understood. This may or may not be a parenting issue. But you have to err on the side that she is doing the best she can with what God gave her and you can problem solve it, or quit it, or just place blame. Also this probably will pass, so with some time things will probably improve.

By Sandysmom on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 01:39 pm:

The last two times this little girl had a play date with my dd, she showed up in pajamas and my friend said that she just can't get her to get dressed. This was around noon both times. When my dd was down for a nap, this little girl was completely different. I think she may be a little jealous because she is used to being the baby. I really don't think she has aspergers. I know some children that do. I think it is just that my friend lets her kids do whatever. She's all about choosing her battles and so am I, but when it comes to allowing my kids to treat others that way, I draw a line. I guess I'm a little shocked that she really doesn't "see", or she does but she refuses to do anything or sees no reason to. She even told my dd not to touch her. She told me once that she was just like that as a kid. I think I may just stop the playdates altogether because I always come away shocked.

By Mrsheidi on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 02:20 pm:

You could offer up a "girls night out" with just you and your friend, that way your friendship isn't crushed...just an idea.
And, wow, she sounds like a handful. Can't get her to get dressed? I've had to tackle Connor a few times to get his shoes on, I'll admit...is she just lazy though??? (The mom)

By Nicki on Friday, June 1, 2007 - 03:47 pm:

Like Kaye, I was also wondering if there was something going on with your friend's daughter other that discipline problems. I wonder if there are some sensory issues? When you said she was still in her p.j.s at noon along with the other behavior, this comes to mind. I have read that children that are overly sensitive are very upset by others touching them or invading their space. That would probably include toys and belongings. My dd has some mild signs of sensory problems. Fortunately she doesn't mind gentle hugs, and will share pretty well. Yet, my dd would live in her p.j.s if I let her. Some days when we're home all day and stuck indoors, I do. Getting her dressed some days is a very difficult. However, she knows if I she doesn't cooperate, we don't go. We've cancelled more than one outing in the past. I've learned to pick my battles! She loves soft materials and will choose to wear the same clothes over and over if they "feel" good. I finally figured out to buy her only the softess clothing, nothing scratchy or tight, etc.
Just trying to give another perspective. You know your friend best.:-) I hope it all works out.

By Sandysmom on Monday, June 4, 2007 - 02:19 pm:

I'm always open to looking at things in another perspective. I really don't think she has sensory issues but I guess it could be that. I guess because I know my friend and how she parents her kids, maybe I've jumped to the conclusion too fast that it is her parenting. I remember spending the whole day in my pj's when I was little, and I have done that from time to time as an adult. I really think a girl's night out is best for a while. Considering the fact that I've seen this little girl behave this way at her birthday party makes me believe that having another mom involved in a playgroup situation would not open my friend's eyes up to her daughter's behavior. Thank you all for your responses!

By Hol on Monday, June 4, 2007 - 11:01 pm:

I thought the same thing about a medical issue, i.e. autism (Aspergers is a form of autism). Autistic kids do not like to be touched, or to have anybody invade "their space". They also do not like change of any kind...furniture being rearranged, etc. They also have issues with social interaction.

Of course, the other issue is that she is just a brat. It sounds like the Mom doesn't know how to control her. Especially if she cannot get a three year old to do as she says.

It is always sad when an affectionate child, like your little DD, has to come accross a socially stunted child. I think that I agree with the others and I would see your friend when it does not involve the kids. If she asks why, after a while, tell her the truth. If you are TRUE friends, she won't take offense. And anyway, your DD's feelings are more important than her's.

By Mommmie on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 12:09 am:

Yeah, I thought autistic spectrum, too. Or something involving a dx. It doesn't sound like these playdates are fun for either child, so I would stop them and just be friends with the mom.

By Sandysmom on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 05:36 pm:

Well, I'm glad I didn't say anything. Apparently while talking to her today, she mentioned that something was said to her by her FIL. She admitted that she doesn't discipline like she should because of her husband's schedule, 11 AM to whenever at night, at least 7 or 7:30 PM, she is with the girls all the time and hates feeling like the only disciplinarian. She said sometimes she feels like she's yelling at them all the time. What could i say? She apparently knows.

By Beth on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 08:02 pm:

I have to admit I thought autism/aspergers also. I hope that you and the mom can continue to just be friends. But if this little girl really does have something going on. Its better to find out now so they can start on therapy and such. Hopefully you can find another friend with a more receptive child.

By Tink on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 08:17 pm:

As the mom to a child with autism, I just wanted to mention that I didn't think it was autism related at all. It just sounds like a typical 3yo that's used to getting her own way. I think I'd just say that it doesn't seem like either of the girls is enjoying their time together, which is making it hard for the two of you to spend time together and maybe you should try a playdate again in a few months. IMO, most kids figure out that the world isn't going to revolve around them when they start school.

By Amecmom on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 09:14 pm:

Discipline is not "yelling all the time". It is establishing rules, consistent routines and patterns so that children know what behavior is expected.
My kids are far from perfect, but they are respectful and good listeners because I have modeled it and expected it from day one.
You may be able to help your friend, as some of the other said, by giving her a parenting book - and making it clear that you are not trying to criticize, but to ease her difficulty. I would recommend, "How to Behave so Your Preschooler Will, Too" by Sal Severe. It validated what I was already doing right, showed me what I could do better, and what I was doing wrong.
I think many parents get overwhelemd and don't want to be the bad guy, so they do nothing and the children suffer for it.
We knew a very wealthy couple. Both were busy corporate execs. Nannys raised their kids and there was no consistency in their routines. The little time the parents spent with the kids they did not want to spend "disciplining". Consequently, they were wild, uncontrolled children.
I hate to think of what they'll be like as teenagers.
So, maybe since your friend kinda' opened it up, you might be able to help her out.
Hope it works out for you.
Ame

By Kaye on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 10:13 pm:

As far as an opener, first you find and read said book (or another), then say, you mentioned to me one time that you were tired of always being the heavy, I just read this book, I really thought they had some great ideas, just thought I would pass it on.

By Mrsheidi on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 10:14 pm:

It's definitely difficult being a single mom...so I can totally understand that. Does she take time for herself? I had to hire a babysitter for 3-6 hours a week just so I didn't feel so physically tired. It's hard feeling like you're disciplining all the time without support. Can the husband work different hours? Just throwing different ideas out there.

You might want to offer some situations that you've been in with your daughters and give her a book like Ame recommended. That way you aren't in a "judging mode", IYKWIM. When she's at your house without her mom there, is she like that? If she is and you correct it, maybe you can tell her what worked, etc.

Sorry I assumed she was being lazy...if there's anything I've learned in this past year+ is that I'm not to assume things about people. Ugh. (Eating humble pie right now...)

By Sandysmom on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 11:32 pm:

Knowing that she is such a tenderheart is what stops me from saying anything. I doubt she'd give herself enough time to herself to read a book. I feel badly for her, and I would gladly watch her daughters so she could have alone time, but then she would want to return the favor and honestly, if she allows her little one to act that way toward my dd while I'm around, then I can't even imagine what it would be like if I'm not there. I refuse to put little dd through that so, there again, to me it's a shame that we can't do that for one another because it would be so convenient and so nice. We're such good friends and I wanted our little ones to be friends too. I asked her if she thought about putting her in a pre-school and she said no, she didn't want to do that. She said that her dd would freak out. I have to say that even though I don't have the guts to ask her, I really don't think this girl has autism. I do belong to a mom's club now so I have been involving little dd around other children and it's gone well. Maybe something will come of that. Thank you all again for your support.

By Sandysmom on Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 11:44 pm:

Ame, I hear what you are saying about rules and consistency. I was a bit too lenient on my oldest and it shows. Now, with little dd, I have clearly defined boundaries and when I say something, I mean it. I'm not mean, but it really is easier in the end if you take the time to set those boundaries. It's easier on both of us and I get to keep my sanity - well - most of the time! LOl!

By Bobbie~moderatr on Wednesday, June 6, 2007 - 12:17 am:

Hey, you have sanity??? Do what you feel is best.. You seldom go wrong when you go with your gut..

By Jennings111 on Wednesday, June 6, 2007 - 09:05 am:

sounds like aspergers to me my son has it and he acts simular.. don't be so hard on the mother she my be in denial.

By Sandysmom on Wednesday, June 6, 2007 - 09:28 am:

Jennings, I understand, but let me assure you that I am not being hard on my friend. Please take a moment and read all my threads on this post. I empathize with her but I have to admit that I am also a little peeved about the situation as well. That is why I started this thread - to ask for advice and to vent. The last thing I want is for someone to think I'm a meanie.

By Bobbie~moderatr on Wednesday, June 6, 2007 - 11:37 am:

Sandy, I don't think any one is assuming you are a meanie..

This all started with concerns over your own daughter, not fixing your friends daughter and how you should address your situation, not your friends.. I stand by, go with your gut..

Your friend will have to be the one to address her own issues and the issues of her children, that is for sure. It sounds like she has people other than you recognizing these issues and calling her to the carpet for them. So, it isn't just your perception that there is an issue. I wish your friend luck and hope she sees the issue and takes the steps to deal with it before her kids end up messed up adults because of it.

Go with your gut..

By Sandysmom on Wednesday, June 6, 2007 - 11:50 am:

By Amecmom on Wednesday, June 6, 2007 - 01:48 pm:

Never for once thought you were a meannie. You sound like you are genuinely concerned for your friend and for your daughter. Kudos to you for taking the time to really think this out, rather than just dropping the friendship and blaming the mom.
Ame