Are the pro-choicers here in favor of partial-birth abortion?
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Are the pro-choicers here in favor of partial-birth abortion?
I know there are alot of women here who are pro-choice, but do you favor partial birth abortions?
For anyone who doesn't know what Partial Birth abortion is:
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html
Please do not attack anyone for their beliefs, I am just curious on what you ladies think about this.
ADMIN NOTE: Photographs removed due to their graphic nature. Please visit link above to view them. Laura made a good point that this could be very disturbing for the children of the moms here at Momsview to see this pics, and if other children are like mine, they're usually all over me while I'm at the computer. - Bubbels
"Partial birth abortion", including those drawings above, are a propaganda phrase put out by the anti-choice people, who want you to think that a doctor is deliberately killing a baby in order to relieve a woman of her "unwanted burden". In fact, according to NARAL's web page (National Abortion Rights League), the Supreme Court has overturned state laws banning the so-called partial birth abortion because (1) the proposed laws would outlaw D&X (dilation & curretage), the safest procedure for a woman who is in her second trimester; (2) the proposed laws have no time frame, that is, they are not limited to the time when the fetus is "viable", can live outside the womb, and could be interpreted to outlaw some of the most common abortion procedures at any stage.
Nor do the proposed laws usually have any clauses that take into consideration the woman's health. It appears that those who propose such laws consider the life of the "unborn child" more important than the life or health of the woman who is pregnant.
I do not, repeat not, believe that any doctor would deliberately kill a baby, that is, a fetus that has developed to the point where it could survive outside the womb. Nor would I ever support such a procedure.
It is obvious that those who oppose abortion, at any time for any reason, are more than willing to use deceptive phrases and propaganda to attempt to persuade others to agree with them on at lease one point. This is such a phrase.
Let me be very clear. I have never approved of abortion. I believe than when a woman exercises her legal choice and chooses to have an abortion it is a sign of failure in some way - failure to use birth control, failure of birth control, inability to afford birth control (especially with insurance companies that will cover Viagra prescriptons but not birth control pills), failure of a society which does not adequately teach young women and young men about birth control and appropriate behavior, failure of a system which says "don't abort, have the baby" and then says if you are poor you can only get state help for a maximum of 5 years and then you have to work at least 30 hours a week (40 in some states) at whatever kind of job you can get no matter how poor you are or how poorly you can provide for your child or children.
As much as I don't like abortion, I like even less the notion that because a woman becomes pregnant she must be forced to carry the pregnancy to term - and then, after having her life thoroughly disrupted by something she didn't intend - have to choose between either adoption or poverty (in most instances). Nor can I think of anyone, even me, whom I would trust to decide whether a woman's reason for having an abortion is "appropriate". So I see no option other than leaving the choice to the woman.
A poster I once saw said "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." Maybe a bit strong (just a little bit), but as long as women get pregnant and mostly men make the laws, we are stuck with these continuing attempts to ban abortion.
I agree 100% with Ginny.
I would have preferred it if you had just posted a link so that I could choose ( or choose NOT to) to see the graphic images and descriptions.
I also fail to see a debate.
Sorry if I offended you Claire. The debate is coming  .
"Partial birth abortion", including those drawings above, are a propaganda phrase put out by the anti-choice people, who want you to think that a doctor is deliberately killing a baby in order to relieve a woman of her "unwanted burden".
I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you. I have a dear friend who used to be employed at an abortion clinic. The first person who ever told me about partial birth abortions was her. And she explained exactly as I posted above. In fact that is when she left the clinic, and though she is still pro-choice she is against partial birth abortions.
I could say so much more, but you all know how I feel on these subjects. Any other views?
Ginny, you know how I love to debate these points with you
I will say again - a link would have done just as well imho and truthfully I wish that you had done just that, as I find the posting of the photos and detailed descriptions with NO warning in the header in poor taste.
Sorry to be blunt but there is no real debate here imho no one would WANT to have this procedure for or against abortion.
More terrible than seeing these pictures, is the knowledge that this actually happens! I am not pro-choice, for a lot of different reasons. But what I really don't understand is how one baby (and it IS a baby in my belief)can be treated in this way, and yet another baby, possibly even a "patient" of the same doctor, is born a "preemie" at 24 weeks, and hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent saving that baby's life! Just because one is desperately wanted and one is just as desperately NOT wanted, does not make one a baby and one a "fetus." I guess I don't really see a debate here, either, because you either believe a baby is a baby from the moment of conception, or you don't. But neither side will be persuaded from their beliefs by the other.
I have to agree with Claire on the lack of warning with the graphic images. My son was on my lap when I pulled this posting up. He may be too young to understand the context, but he did point at the screen and go "Baby!" while I hurriedly hit the back button.
A link - and warning - would have been better.
I'm not sure what to say on the topic, since I can't even imagine anyone in any circumstances who would want to have this procedure. I would never choose this procedure for myself, if that's at all relevant.
I agree with Clarie. I never knew the procedures and graphic pictures would be shown. (sick to my stomach)........I couldn't get the dang screen to click off fast enough for me!
I don't believe in abortion of any way. A baby is a baby as soon as it is conceived in my opinion.
If you play the game of sex, you pay for what comes after, IMO. I would not ever believe this is OK or anyone to do.
Thats what the adoption agencies are out there for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And for 24 week premies born, we pay thousands of dollars to save it's life!! Even if the baby dosen't make it.....they can still say "we tried" instead of going the easy way out.
I give everyone a chance.........
I am pro-choice. Not pro-abortion. I also believe this issue should stay out of the political arena. I'm tired of hearing about it every time the two political parties come up for elections.
I have seen a very close friend, struggle with the decision whether or not to have an abortion or have the baby. I won't tell you what she decided, because that is a moot point for this topic. I will tell you, it was her decision to make. I'm glad she had the choices to weigh. Pros and cons, and she was able to have a choice.
As far as partial birth abortions, I have to agree with Ginny on this one, again. Propoganda can be used to try to persuade anyone.
I will tell you this...if my life, my dd's life or any other woman's life was at stake and it came between her life or the unborn fetus's existence, I would choose the woman. I also know there are extreme measures a doctor can take without going as far as a "a partial abortion" if a pregnancy has to be terminated in the second trimester.
Why if I am pro-choice, I wouldn't think the partial birth abortion appalling? I find abortions a sad, sad extreme thing to do, but I want it to be my choice, my option.
Bubbels - thanks for doing that for me, I only remembered that I could edit my posts here this morning at about 7, but when I came online to do it you'd beat me to the punch. Thanks again.
Claire - I've already said I'm sorry, what more can I do? As for the debate, most topics posted on this board aren't really for "debate". They are hot-button topics that would be disruptive to the other boards, and so they are posted here. And that is exactly why I posted this here.
Laurazee - I am so sorry that happened to you and your son. I didn't think anything about the kids seeing it when I posted the pictures. I forget sometimes that we are all a bunch of mommies. Please forgive me.
Mechelle - I apologize to you too.
To anyone else who saw the pictures, I am sorry. Chalk it up to mommy brain. Thanks to all who responded.
Late term abortions for a medical reason is one thing but this procedure is sick. I feel late term abortions should only be performed if medically needed. Partial births should NEVER be performed.
No offense to you yourself Jujubee ( I don't know your name LOL)(no grudges held) But those pics were really, really graphic!!!! I have a big heart, weak stomach, I will say I do agree with Annie, if it should come to a life or death situation then I would pick the Mother. Kinda a hard choice, but thats what I would do. But this kind of abortion is T-totally sickening.......
But I don't believe in abortion other than what I agreed on with Annie!
When I was in college I would chant that I am pro-choice, but my choice is life. I really believed that we should be given that option. As I have had children and gotten older I have thought, hmmm does that sound right, we should be given that option to kill. So we have a 6 month old, with a terminal illness, it is costly, inconvenient, sad, etc. Should we be allowed to kill that child? How is this different from an abortion? When you choose to have sex, you risk a pregancy, if it is something you are not willing to deal with, then you have options, adoption. As far partial birth, I do understand these are done only when a child is medically having an issue, again, lots of newborns have issues to, we don't kill them. There are plenty of people who deliver still borns, anaycephalic children, etc. It is difficult, but that is the right thing to do in my opinion. I know people don't make the decision to get an abortion lightly, but why not choose adoption?
snip{Q}believe that any doctor would deliberately kill a baby, that is, a fetus that has developed to the point where it could survive outside the womb {Q}snip
I find it convenient to call a child a fetus when that person doesnt want that child, or is trying to detach themselves from that child growing inside them.
Well that is crap. From the moment that child is conceived it is a BABY, a human life, an innocent.
I dont care if the child is going to have problems physically or mentally. Should we kill anybody who has any disability?
I am so angry right now I need to stop typing.
Sandie, I am sorry you are angry. But to me a fetus/baby is, until it can survive outside the womb, a potential life. And I will never give more weight to a potential life than to an existing one. I have three children and, yes, I was pregnant with my babies, and the moment I knew I was pregnant I would say I am having a baby. But, the pregnancy that my body spontaneously terminated at about 8-10 weeks was not a baby, it was a fetus.
No one so far has responded to the factual issues I laid out, about the proposed laws having no time frame in them, no exceptions for the life/health of the pregnant woman, and that the descriptions of the procedure to be outlawed in the proposed laws is rather inspecific and can apply to procedures commonly used in second trimester abortions.
I am not angry at anyone on this forum. I just can not believe the world we live in. Women killing their children, born or not. Sex offenders worrying about their lives and if they are ruined or not. I just cannot believe this world.
A baby is never a potential life. How can a baby only be a potential life when that child has a heart, heartbeat, all the body parts you and I have?
Their should be no exceptions to the life/health of the pregnant woman. She made the choice to have sex and everyone knows that even with "protected sex", their is a chance for pregnancy. How selfish is killing your child for your life. Many women would gladly give their lives for their children once they are born. Why is it so different when they are carrying them? I was told by my doctors that I would be lucky to have one baby and if I did want to have children to have them young. Well, I have three beautiful kids and we are done. Dh is getting a vasectomy. If I did end up pregnant again, I would definately NOT even consider abortion. I know what it is like to feel that baby move inside of me, to know Dh and I created a perfect new little life.
There are too many people out there desparatley wanting children. People that are not capable of having them. Then we have people who say oops I got pregnant better get an abortion or Oh no my baby is going to have a disability better get an abortion or Oh no my heath is at stake Let me be selfish and get an abortion.
I don't think having an abortion if it's a life or death situation for you is selfish at all, especially if you have other children. I think it is a horrible choice to have to make and I thank God I have never been in that situation. I think unless you've walked a mile in those shoes you shouldn't judge others.
Colette,I have walked a mile in "those shoes". Three miles, one for each baby I carried and delivered.
I know what it is like to be scared for your health/life while you are pregnant. I NEVER even considered killing any of my children. The first pregnancy I was asked if I was going to keep the baby. I was appalled. How could I kill MY BABY.
Sandie, what about the woman or girl who didn't choose to have sex. There was a major flap in Ireland a few years ago because a 14 year old girl who had been molested and impregnated by her uncle wanted to go to England to get an abortion.
I'm sorry, but when you say she chose to have sex - and thus should carry the pregnancy to term - you make the pregnancy sound like a punishment for the sin of having sex outside of marriage. I can't imagine that you think of a pregnancy as punishment. And what would you say about the man who caused the pregnancy - of course, he should be responsible for child support, but how many women on this board are living as single parents without being able to collect child support from ex-husbands, never mind a man she wasn't married to.
Nor do I think a woman or girl should carry her pregnancy to term so that she can provide a baby for someone who wants one. And my dear dil has not been able to conceive and would dearly love to be able to adopt a "pretty, white baby" (who wouldn't?).
I don't think we will agree on this issue. I do not see the conceptus, fetus, or whatever as a baby until it is able to survive outside the womb. And until that time is reached, I strongly believe it is the woman's choice. Until we have a society which will provide adequate support for women who are raising their child or children as single parents, and do not penalize low-income women who have children outside of marriage (or inside marriage), I believe a woman has to have that choice.
When I say that society penalizes women with children when they are poor, I know what I am talking about. When my youngest was about 1-1/2, I talked about going back to work, and everyone said I belonged home with my children. Six months later my husband lost his job and couldn't find a new job, and we went on welfare. And everyone started asking me why I didn't get a job instead of collecting welfare. The only difference between the time I should stay home with my children and the time I should get a job is that we became temporarily poor. It has gotten worse now, with the five year limit on being able to get welfare money. Women who want to go to school so they can eventually get decent jobs are told no, you must work 30-40 hours a week at minimum wage, no welfare so you can get an education. And try to find decent, safe day care when you are getting paid mimimum wage.
It's all part of a package. Just saying a women should carry the pregnancy to term and have the baby isn't enough, nor is supporting her through the pregnancy enough. What about after the baby is born? Then we say - get a minimum wage job and put your baby in whatever daycare you can afford, never mind if it is safe or good or healthy. I don't think we, as a society, really care a whole lot about the baby after it is born, only before it is born. And I must say, that makes me angry.
Excellent point, Ginny.
Can someone explain to me why people have to go to China or Russia to adopt a baby for $25,000.
but some girls/woman have abortions who might have the baby if they were given the $25,000 for compensation?
I know I opened up a bag of worms and it is a mess. But I could see this being allowed once in a woman's life as a law.
There are always ads in the papers and such looking for surrogate mothers, and BIG money in that. Atleast from the ad description. I guess that is along the same lines. I do not understand why people pay so much to adopt a child someone doesnt want or cant properly take care of. All the adopters want is a child to love and cherish and I am sure the child doesnt want to stay in an orphanage. I know that there are a lot of expenses with adoption, but man. When I was a child, I always thought that if everyone had a job to do whether it be farmer, doctor, teacher, trashman, we could end money and everyone would have food, shelter, everything. Obviously an ignorant idea, but would'nt it be wonderful if it could work. Sorry about the bunny trail...
About the girl who didnt want to have sex, I do not believe she should punish that child by killing it so her life can be "good" and go at it as she planned. Life is never how we expect it to be, there are always things being thrown at us. So I do not see it as punishment for becoming pregnant, a child is never a punishment, a child is a gift, no matter what the circumstances. The girl/woman who is pregnant is getting the easy way out by aborting, not even giving that child a chance to live its life.
I do agree that society does not support new mothers enough. I think that is part of there reason we have been hearing of these girls having babies, putting them in trash bags and leaving them to die. Isnt there some sort of new thing where you can drop off your baby in a hospital to give up with no questions asked? I am thinking I heard something to this effect, but cannot be sure.
Ginny you are right we will not agree. We could banter back and forth, but it all boils down to how we see that baby.
Ginny, I think you are right about us never agreeing on this point. As for the point of no time frame on when they can occur. I just am fundamentally against abortions. Is not letting abortions penalizing poor people possible, well yes, but if they could so easily get an abortion, why not give that child up for adoption? Because it is an easier choice. I do think the fetus should take first place to the mother. Why do I think this...well, ask any mother if you had the chance to save your life or your child's, which would you pick, certainly the child's. I feel society has just really put too much into dehumanizing a fetus and we really think it is okay. Look at the tissue of an abortion, how can you not look at that and see it is a baby, NO it can't live without someone taking care of it, but neither can a newborn, yet we still punish people for dumping that child. I think our society lacks education for birth control failure...period it happens, you get pregnant by having sex, if you are not in a place to have a baby, DON'T have sex...it is a pretty easy formula. I feel society has lived to long with such poor morals, we should stand up now to make a change, NO this won't be easy, but it would make a difference over time.
I guess this has turned into an abortion debate and I should just hit the back button now. Before I do, I want to add a few things.
Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. It means giving the decision to the woman. I don't feel it is my place, or your place, or the government's place to tell a woman how to live her life or what she should do with her body. I may not agree with her decision, but I have no say in it, just as I wouldn't expect anyone (except maybe my husband) to have a say in what I choose to do.
Married women, who are expected to have sex with their husbands, get pregnant using birth control. To say to them don't have sex if you don't want to get pregnant goes against a fundamental part of a marriage. While they may be a small percent of women, it happens more often than you think.
I personally think that a woman faced with an unexpected pregnancy has her life changed no matter what she decides. There is no "easy" solution.
"Isnt there some sort of new thing where you can drop off your baby in a hospital to give up with no questions asked? I am thinking I heard something to this effect, but cannot be sure"
Yes, there is and here is a wonderful webpage.
http://www.amtchildrenofhope.com/safe_haven_law.htm
It lists' all of the states, and you can find your state, and your laws.
Julie
In FL the program says you can drop off your baby at a police station, fire station, or hospital within 72 hours of birth, no questions asked, no charges aginst you. I think this is the best idea we've used in a long time.
They have the same program in NJ and Pennsylvania now, and I think it is a good program. Once upon a time a mother could take her baby to a convent or orphanage, but they don't exist any more. It is good that the lawmakers finally decided to do this.
Kaye,
I am a mom of four children. If my life would have been in jeopardy with any of my pregnancies, I would have chosen my life.
I agree with Ginny, 100% on this one. Thankfully she is more articulate than I am. However, my sentiments and opinions are the same.
My body, my life, my choice.
I think it is very sad to hear people have such little regard for a human life. God is the giver of life. and what right do we have to decide that the life that God chose to be, that we can destroy for any reason. I find that is one of the biggest problems in society today is the attitude that I can do what ever I want, because it's my life, regardless. Well, the fact is yes you can do anything you want, iit is your choice because the laws state so, but I can tell you it is not a choice that doesn't have consequences, as all choices do. People can make like this doesn't effect their relationship with God if they want, but I think they will be in for a strong judgment from God. Oh, I know some will say here we go bringing God into it, when it's not about religion. Well, your right on one account it's not about religion for sure, it's about putting yourself in God's place and saying you have the right to decide who can have life.
Let me make myself clear, I not one who thinks it right to burn abortion clinics, or protest even in front of it, but I do think if you believe in God it should be addressed in that context, because in everything in your life he should be consulted for guidance.
It is very sad when someone is raped, but the child is also the victim, that child can be adopted out to a loving home, turning a terrible situation into something good. It is also terrible when complications come with a pregnacey, but when are we ever going to understand we are God's care. What wrong with praying and trusting God. Maybe God has a different plan in mind.
I also know that the partial abortion is being practiced and it is horrendus. This is what society says is OK., but someone who molested a child gets little or no jail time. What a great society we live in. And whether you want to call it a fetus or a baby does not matter, because it is life. I'm so thankful Mary didn't believe in abortion, I'm sure she went through some ridule, but thank God she chose life or we would have none.
I will choose not to debate on this issue. However I would like to ask Ginny based on this comment from above "I do not see the conceptus, fetus, or whatever as a baby until it is able to survive outside the womb " if she supports the Murder conviction of someone who would kill the unborn child of a woman in her 2nd or 3rd trimester, since you don't consider the fetus a viable form of life until it's brething on it's own? Just another thing to consider.
Kym, that didn't make sense to me? Could you rephrase it? Thanks.
I agree with Annie, Kym, your question doesn't make sense.
As for the proposed laws (and actual laws in some states) that make the killing of the baby/fetus/conceptus a separate crime from killing the woman, that is just a back door way of giving the unborn child the same status as the mother.
I do agree, many people are trying to adopt - my own son and dear dil among them. But even so, I don't believe that a woman who becomes pregnant should be forced to carry the pregnancy to term so that someone else can adopt the baby after it is born. That sounds like turning the woman into a slave to the unborn child. One of the many problems I have with anti-abortion laws is that they all value the unborn child more than they do the pregnant woman - a set of values I don't agree with.
One of the things that troubles me greatly about the abortion debate is that so many who are opposed to abortion put it in terms of "if she has sex and gets pregnant, she should carry to term - after all, she chose to have sex". This makes pregnancy sound like punishment. And, if the woman is pregnant through rape, or is a 12 or 13 year old girl who was a victim of incest or abuse, why should she be required to go through the whole period of pregnancy and childbirth when she didn't even chose to have sex.
My father told me that when my mom gave birth to me, there was a complication called placenta previa (I'm not sure of what that is, but it is a serious complication). My dad was told he might have to choose between his wife and the child. My dad told me that he told the doctors there was no choice - he wanted his wife to live no matter what the consequences might be to the child (me). I have always believed my dad made the right choice.
In a perfect world, every woman would get pregnant only by choice, no woman would be raped, every child would be wanted, and no woman would be penalized by interrupting her school or work life in order to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth. No parents would disown or punish a daughter who got pregnant before she was married. And every man who impregnated a woman would be responsible, pay her living and medical expenses and pay appropriate child support.
But until that perfect world arrives, it is the woman who is expected to pay the price and carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, no matter what it does to her life. I believe this is wrong. And no matter how many dramatic pictures are shown, or "catchy" names are devised for medical procedures to end a pregnancy, there is nothing that will convince me that anything should interfere with a woman's right to make this choice.
Many years ago one of my friends had a poster on her wall which expressed part of what I feel. It was a drawing of a bishop, red hat and all, obviously pregnant - and the legend was "If men got pregnant, abortion would become a sacrament." Simplistic, and certainly irreverent, but there is more than a little truth in it.
In that line, I remember my dear mother, at about age 80, listening to some politician on TV talking about "family values" and "protecting the unborn" - and mom was fulminating about those "men who want to decide what a woman should do with her body". Until then, I didn't know how my dear mother felt about this topic, but I sure appreciated her (for the millionth time) at that moment.
I do understand and appreciate how you feel, those of you who are opposed to abortion. I simply do not believe as you believe, and do not agree with you.
It saddens me to see people put their selves in Gods shoes. Ofcourse we don't choose any bad situations in our lives, but God allows them for specific reasons, he is in control of every situation you may face. When will we learn to trust God, he always makes a way of escape for every trial. God is the giver of life, he send each life for a reason and has a purpose for each life, who are we to decide that our will should override God's. I know I can't change anyones mind about this issue, I wish I could, because I truly believe there will be serious consequences for the act of murder under any name.
God gave man free will.
you are absolutely right Claire, he does let us make our own choices, but they are not without consequences. He says work out your salvation with fear and trembleing, because of consequences that you will face. To follow Jesus we are to summit our wills to his authority, we are no longer our own, we were bought with a price, the blood of Jesus Christ. He gave his life so that we might have life. So all choices in the end as to who has life will go back to Jesus. But, you are right every one makes their own choices, he would have it no other way.
I respect your views, Ginny, but I don't agree that the murder of a pregnant woman is equal to the murder of a non-pregnant woman. I believe that there are two lives taken in that case, and the punishment should be commensurate with that fact. If I were carrying a child, and, say, a drunk driver caused an accident which caused me to lose that child, what then? Don't you think there should be a punishment for the loss of that life?
I guess none of us are going to ever change our minds on this issue - our values are too firmly rooted in who we are...
I do find this debate board interesting, though, to see how and what others are thinking
I find it interesting too, Cybermommy. I am so pleased that we are able to discuss this topic, which is one of the most difficult and with such deep rooted feelings, without descending to name calling or nastiness.
I do not ask that people agree with me, only that if they respond to my point of view they do so with the courtesy that I have received here. Personally, I am very proud to be part of a group that can discuss beliefs about abortion in a decent manner.
Nothing will ever change my mind on the abortion issue.
What I posted above is what I firmly believe in.
Nothing will change that.
I will though consider if a Woman was raped, or something as that to get an abortion. I would't carry around another mans baby in an rape issue to have it adopted out.
I can say so also, I am very glad that we can all talk about this topic, noone getting irate and nasty about someone elses beliefs.
This group board, is very mature as I can see, we stick to our guns, in a natural adult like manner.
Forgive me
God forgive me
For I have sinned
God,when will the pain
and suffering end
My angel is gone
taken from me
But why
This answer I'm trying to see
Every night
While lying in bed
I constantly think
what could have been said
Maybe if I tried
or even fought
My angel would be here
and not just a thought
But I just lied there
and let it be done
without a teardrop
not even one
They told me it was the right thing
That it was "for the best"
Well then why am I lying here
unable to rest
Now she's just a memory
constantly in my mind
and comfort is what I'm
trying to find
So as I lie here
crying in my bed
Their words run constantly
through my head
Was it the right thing
the fair thing for her
When I see her in Heaven
will she call me mother
So I was 15
To young to be heard
but will that excuse
mean anything to her
Will you forgive me
Sweet angel of mine
You're answer is what
I'm trying to find
But if you can't forgive me
I will understand
And move on with life
the best that I can
Please remember
You're always on my mind
And I will always love you
till the end of all time
Love Always Forever undying and unconditionally,
Mommy
this sums up how id feel after an abortion ...tho never faced witht he situation i dont think i could deal with it... i know its a personal choice but most dont know the emotional feeling they have to deal with later on in life that fester for along time ...
i feel if you get pregnant it was gods doing and we don't have the right to kill anything much less a baby.. and i'm going to leave it there.
I agree, a baby is a gift from God, who are we to throw that gift away?
Not everyone believes in God, first of all. Now, this tread has apparently gotten nasty, and I didn't bother to read the responses, but to answer the original question...
I am ONLY in favor of LATE TERM ABORTIONS when there is a medical necessity. Late term abortions make up less than 1% (I believe, it's been a few months since I checked that stat) of all abortions and are most docs will not preform one unless there is a dire need.
Now, I'm tired of people expecting the whole world to conform to their religious beliefs. Do what's right for you, and leave everyone else alone!!
I also have not read the other post, but I wouldn't say that the post has gotten "nasty" just because God was brought up. I was just stating how I feel about the topic, just like everyone else here was doing, including you. I wouldn't call that nasty and I wouldn't say that I was trying to get anyone to conform, I certainly have not been as vocal as some by the comments I was making. Sorry to have offended you.
A, I don't believe the thread has gotten nasty. B, it is an old thread from 2003 that a new member 'revived"
C. Crystal, COOL IT. Calm down, take a bubble bath, or take a break. You are getting much too close to the edge in your posts. I know you have had a very rough couple of weeks, but that's not the fault of anyone posting here.
I'm obviously not a moderator here, but Crystal has a point. It may be hard for some of you to hear but not everyone here believes in God. And it is as she said ridiculous for any of you to expect others to conform to your religious beliefs. I am personally offended by some of the poems that are written here, like the one above. When I joined this site I really didn't expect to see moderators discriminating, as I feel Ginny did against Crystal. If that is the case perhaps someone who is less biased, should be moderating, or you should advertise MOMSVIEW as a Christian-only site.
Groove
Ginny, could you email me please? I know the rules well, and on the other threads I agreed with your advice, but I'd like some clarification on this. Thank you! cjaping at gmail dot com.
Groove, way back when I was a new member, I brough up the overuse of religion on all of the boards. It was coming to the point of people CONSTANTLY saying "It's Gods will" or "Ask God to help you" kind of thing, so I brought it up, and the rules were changed. In abortion debates we tend to get back to the "God" reasoning, which bugs me only because I have rights as a non-Christian too, and people are trying to change the laws to reflect their religous beliefs.
*Ginny, if I was again out of line, please let me know an I'll remove my posts*
Crystal, you are right. Your post was not out of line and well within the rules. I think I am carrying too many different threads in my head and getting my threads and timeframes confused. I apologize.
The reason I didn't think the thread had "gotten nasty" is because I realized it is an old, revived thread, with the last post until the reviving post being a bit more than 3 years old. In making that evaluation, I was considering only the two recent posts above yours.
As you know well, the MV moderators have worked very hard to keep evangelizing and witnessing types of posts off the board generally, in response to requests like yours and a general sensitivity that not every poster, member or reader is Christian, and our members come from a wide range of faith (and non-faith) structures and hold highly varying personal beliefs.
But we will get back to the "God" reasoning every time on the topic of abortion, because for many people it is part of their faith structure. To expect people to not refer to God or God's will when they are talking about abortion or anything having to do with the profound disagreement about when life begins is, imo, unrealistic. As long as people express themselves in terms of "I believe", rather than "you should believe", I can live with that. I don't think it is an attack on those who don't believe, or don't believe the same way, but just a statement of personal belief.
We (you and I) have been talking to each other at MV for a long time, and in general, as you know, I agree with you and certainly, as you can see in my early post in this thread, on this issue. I am, after all, one of the self-confessed lefty-liberals on the board (Though I am surprised sometimes to see who I find myself agreeing with, as sometimes I do feel I am hanging out there alone in "left" field).
Again, I apologize.
POST BY GROOVEPICKLE: I'm obviously not a moderator here, but Crystal has a point. It may be hard for some of you to hear but not everyone here believes in God. And it is as she said ridiculous for any of you to expect others to conform to your religious beliefs. I am personally offended by some of the poems that are written here, like the one above. When I joined this site I really didn't expect to see moderators discriminating, as I feel Ginny did against Crystal. If that is the case perhaps someone who is less biased, should be moderating, or you should advertise MOMSVIEW as a Christian-only site.
POST BY CRYSTAL: Groove, way back when I was a new member, I brough up the overuse of religion on all of the boards. It was coming to the point of people CONSTANTLY saying "It's Gods will" or "Ask God to help you" kind of thing, so I brought it up, and the rules were changed. In abortion debates we tend to get back to the "God" reasoning, which bugs me only because I have rights as a non-Christian too, and people are trying to change the laws to reflect their religous beliefs.
Groovepickle, as a new member, you aren't aware of some of the past heated issues and debate topics we've encountered on the board, nor of some of the relationships between members that have developed over the years. I don't mean that in a bad light, I'm just saying that since you just recently joined the group, there's no way for you to know.
That said, Crystal is correct. Many topics/posts walk a very thin line on the debate board. Religion has always been one of *the* hottest topics to bring into any debate, hands down. We do NOT discriminate against anyone for their religious beliefs, and this is definitely NOT a Christian board. In the past, this has been an issue at one time or another, and we have set up rules for everyone to abide by (as Ginny mentioned above), that will hopefully please *most* of the people.
If you knew Ginny and Crystal at all, you would know that Ginny is not discriminating against Crystal. It is simply a case of her feeling comfortable enough with the posting relationship they have developed over the past 3 years or so, to tell her to chill out when she's walking the line with a post. Any of the moderators might give a similar response to other members they know well, and the alternative would be letting a thread spiral out of control until harsh words are passed, which would result in posts or even the entire thread being removed. It can be likened to a gentle reminder to keep emotions in check when posting on these sensitive topcis.
I didn't see Crystal getting upset over it, and I really don't see why it should upset you either.
As for your remark about Ginny, Ginny has been a moderator for a long time, and just because she has very strong beliefs and feelings about certain topics does not mean she is biased. If that is the case, then you might say we are ALL biased, because every single one of us has strong feelings about one thing or another. And the fact that she's a moderator shouldn't prevent her form voicing them. Many of you probably don't realize that it's often difficult for us, as moderators, to post our views to some of these threads, because we ARE moderators, and our posts are rarely ever seen as anything BUT a moderator post. I think a lot of you can't relate to our posts as *just another member*, particularly on these hot topics because you see that *moderator hat* when we post.
Each and every one of us has been offended by something that's been posted, at least once. After all, we are all individuals, we have different opinions and beliefs and religions. For the most part, when someone posts something that you find offensive, you have the option of not responding to it, not reading it or ignoring it. The exception is when it's a personal attack. We truly do NOT discriminate against any member, regardless of their religious affiliation, their political views or their other beliefs and opinions.
I personally feel glad that we can tell someone to chill out or cool it or calm down if they are getting excited while posting. Think of it as if we were all sitting around in your living room having this debate. Someone starts to use strong language and get excited, and you might look at her and say *chill out*. It is not discriminating, it's just an attempt to calm things down so the discussion can continue.
First of all, this thread is over three years old. A new member searched out and read through an old archive that had not been posted to since, Friday, January 3, 2003. It was brought back to current and it seems that not a one of you read the whole thread, taking note of the dates. You all just jumped to the current and interjected your opinion.. Which is what this and all other threads are about, OPINION.. Religious beliefs or not, what stirs this up and makes it ugly are the opinions not properly expressed.. Attacking one over your own beliefs and devaluing their own beliefs doesn't make you right. And doesn't sway their opinions, it puts them on the defensive and brings about mud slinging... You can't attack someone and then say, now that I have had my say you have to respect my view when you yourself do not respect theirs.. You are just as guilty of trying to "discriminate", as we (the moderation) have been accused of on this thread. You are saying your opinions are right and the only way to be seen or dealt with..
Second of all, the moderation doesn't care what you believe... Nor do we care what the opinions of others are. What we do care about is keeping the board running smoothly... And IF we know a member, as we do Crystal.. And she is exhibiting anger/upset in her opinions (not just on this thread by the way) we as the moderation need to stay on top of it. I know Crystal very well, As I know many of our long time members very well... Crystal is very capable of expressing herself and she is more than capable of standing her own ground. She is not being attacked by Ginny or anyone else. Her views are of great value here... As she already knows that is my opinion of her, as I have stated it to her myself... But things can snowball. If someone else comes on this thread and attacks her views with out the interjection of the moderation she will become more and more defensive, which is a natural response. Having such a long history with the board, the moderation, as well as Crystal, are fully aware of what can happen if a thread like this isn't kept in emotional check... And in the case of most long time members, they generally understand/can step back and see where the moderation is coming from and they understand the purpose behind most of our actions because of their own personal history with us. For some reason, people come to this site thinking they are going to change the views of other members by expressing their own. This is a fact of life. So instead of gracefully accepting the opinions of others we have to get upset and say things that in a moment of rational thought we wouldn't say. Not out of censorship but out of the understanding that a thought expressed in a calm/rational manner is better received then one made out of attack/defense. All that said, it isn't Crystals opinion that is being commented on, it is the manner in which her post are coming across up to her last one, not just the one on this thread. As you are apparently assuming Groove.
Should Ginny have emailed Crystal off the list and expressed her opinion of Crystals state of mind in her posting as of late.. Well, this is a double edge sword for us..
If we email off the list, then we have members chiming in that we are letting special members get away with things we wouldn't let others. All because you aren't seeing the fact that something has been said to them, just not on the board in public.
If we censor her thread, deleting off the things we see that someone might find offensive. We are again being judged for attacking that members point of view.
If we had come in deleted just her post then again our actions would be attacked.
If we had just decided to scrap the whole thread, someone would interject that we are censoring the whole boards views because of the actions of one member/or many members depending on what thread you would like to discuss that we have had to remove in the past.
If we had not done anything, we then again would have been attacked for our lack of action period. We would be seen as showing favoritism to wards the opinions and actions of others, whose opinions aren't your own.. Which seems to be a common complaint..
Here is the deal, plain and true... This is an open forum, which is privately owned.. You know this coming in. Most of you have read for a lengthy time before deciding to join. Others come here once and decide to join. Either way, You came here of your own free will. You are not forced to join and you aren't forced to stay. The moderation of the board is a fact of this board, whether you agree or not, whether you think you could do a better job of it or not is not relevant. For the simple fact, as an member looking on the surface you do not see the broad picture of what being a moderator entails. You think we are sitting here tapping our fingers waiting to attack whom ever doesn't agree with us.. To throw around our weight.. You neglect to realize that for more than 10 years this has been a fully functional group, with limited discord. So... Apparently the fact that you and the other members come back means that even though you don't agree with some of our actions we have and are doing something right... Considering the number of post this board gets in a day/month/year and the number of times the moderation steps in, I think that the freedom of our members is very apparent..
It is just sad that the moment we do take an action, we are questioned in our every move and that someone always takes it upon themselves to question our value/abilities as moderators. For every one of you that question the manner in the way something is dealt with there are a half a dozen others that are sitting back thinking when are the moderators going to do something about it. For every negative opinion of us, there are hundreds that know we are only doing what needs to be done to keep the board flowing in a positive direction. Arguing facts/opinions, attacking each others views, and interjecting your own as the only way to see things does nothing for this board or for the cause you are trying to discuss. And... Coming to this board and attacking the actions of a moderator, over something that you aren't fully aware of, takes away from the stance you are trying to express/the views you are trying to show. You want consideration over your views then you need to express them in a manner that makes your points clear and doesn't attack the other members views............. IF Crystals views had varied from your own Groove, I am almost 100% certain that your opinion of our actions would have been seen differently...
History with this board gives me the knowledge as to how this is to be dealt with, it also tells me that someone will chime in disagreeing with me. You choose to express yourself and you choose to take the chance on not being agreed with. You also choose to come back, knowing that you might not be agreed with 100% of the time. Those are your choices as a member. I as a moderator, also have choices to make.. Choices that because a member isn't looking at the board as a whole body aren't considering when they see my actions on a particular thread. I am responsible for not only seeing the thread for its contents and text.. I am responsible for applying my history to the thread and looking at all the avenues it might go down.. I don't have the luxury like a general member to sit back and wait for the bottom to fall out and watch the moderation scatter trying to patch the holes before the ship sinks.. I as a moderator have to be ready to step in and be a reasoning body.. Which is all Ginny was doing... She was trying to revert a on slot of personal attacks against Crystal, KNOWING full well that she herself would be attacked.. Coming in as a person that Crystal knows and understands (because of her history with Ginny) and telling her to back off a bit, isn't attacking her, censoring her or judging her view. It is working to wards keeping this board the place it is and has been for a very long time... Crystal has said on every post that she has put out there that she realizes she is pushing the envelope in her post.... She knew and I am sure was waiting for one of us to say something. Just because she knows, like it or not, that is the way things have to go to keep things running smoothly. Ginny's post wasn't personal, as in she didn't agree with her or doesn't like her.. It was only to try to keep this from exploding into something it didn't need to become..
Karen, lol, chiming in at the same time...
I am guilty! I didn't even look at the date on the post. I am sorry to have responded to such an old post! I usually stay away from these debates (I see why now) but I guess I just have too much time on my hands!! LOL I certainly do not judge anyone for their beliefs or opinions and I hope that I was not coming across that way. I live in a small community and probably have been sheltered most of my life, so I do easly forget that people don't all see things the same way.
Joelle, you did nothing other than to post after another post to an existing thread. For Pete's sake, don't take any blame on your shoulders. Heaven knows there are enough other shoulders on which it could more appropriately be placed.
If Momsview ever becomes a place where people can't or are afraid to say what they believe - especially when it is said as a personal belief and with no demand that others share that belief or attack on others who differ - then I will hang it up as a moderator. But not until then, and part of my task as a moderator is to make sure that doesn't happen.
LOL, Let me say, in my my OWN words, that I was not, and am not upset with Ginny. If anything, I appreciate her admonishments, because we DO know each other well, and are generally on the "same side", so I know she was gently letting me know I might be getting too upset. As most people here know, I'm outspoken, and sometimes overstep my boundries, as we all do. I asked Ginny to email me, and we will discuss some things privately, because I respect her (and the other moderators), and it isn't appropriate for us to do so on the board. So please, don't anyone think Ginny was attacking me, she was actually being a friend, as she always has, but she still has a job (UNPAID LOL) to do. An olive branch to all, I've been in a "fightin' mood" lately, and it spilled over onto some debate threads. Oh, and to the mods, you guys know which mods I can take a warning from the easiest, (heck you guys know me better than most of my IRL friends!!) LOL, so I really DO appreciate Ginny stepping in.
Thanks, Crystal. I really appreciate that.
Joelle, you have done nothing wrong. I was only pointing out that this was a very old thread. It was said that the replies were made with out reading the post above theirs and I wanted that brought up too..
Trust me when I say that we don't care who brings things out of the archives. They are archived for that very reason. If we had wanted to "censor" this particular thread/debate it would have been easily deleted 3 years ago, instead of archived. We just need people to actually take the time to read through the threads before they decide to take a side, taking note of when it was posted and by whom would be a good idea also. It isn't uncommon for the opinion of the original poster to be explained better or for their views to sway in the progress of a thread. So if you jump to the bottom you might be adding fuel/attacking what is a mute issue in the end.
Just as a side note, Crystal is Palmbchprincess who posted on Friday, November 8, 2002. Also many of the ladies that posted to this thread have left our group or... are not frequent members (we have many that come in and express themselves here or post on the other boards and then get busy and don't show up for a couple of months or so) So to post to an old/archived thread you need to keep in mind that the original poster just might not be here to see your reply.
And one last thing to Groove.. Here is the thing.. If the opinions and views of our members were not valued, if we were looking for carbon copies of our views, we could easily add a bunch of religious, political, marital, race etc etc etc questions to the application you filled out when you decided to join the board. The questions by the way, were agreed upon by the moderation and many of the original members of this board... So if we did want to have a narrow view on this board it would have and could have been so from the start, as there are boards out there that are like that... BUT those things have no value to us, the moderation. This board is here to share your views, learn of the views of others and to grow together. We don't ask that you agree with anything that is said on this board, least of all our actions. We do however ask that you respectfully agree to disagree and not attack the stance of another.. But because we do what we do and we are here to play the bad guy, this board is here... We have out lived and held our members (the numbers that attended, long time members 10 years together for some) for longer than most of the other forums similar to ours have been able to. Like us or not, disagree with our actions or not... We have and will continue to do what we have to do because it has worked for all these years.. You might see it as broken and we see it as a work in process that gets kinks in it that together we work out both through the moderation and the ability/willingness of the members to trust us to know we are doing what we need to do.
By the way, Ginny dealt with Crystal with more tact than I would have used.. Simply because Crystal and my on board relationship is different than the one she carries on with Ginny. But because you don't know our history (debates, general discussions) you would have most definitely had an issue with what I would have said to her had I caught this thread first.. What would have offended you would have made her and many of the other old timers laugh at me.. 3 years ago, Crystal would have been dealt with differently.. As she would have been a new member then and we wouldn't have known how to approach each other.. BUT we have taken the time to learn who each other is.. She knew she would be getting one of us to step in just as soon as she posted. She knew she as skirting on the edge of posting in a manner that can't be done (out of respect for the board, not the moderation). We aren't policing for the act of being in power, we police so that this board is here tomorrow. If we sat back and let people just fly off in post, if we didn't set limits on appropriate discussions and the way people speak to each other this board would crumble..
Crystal, look what you did... Put your brat hat a way for a while and give us some time to get caught up, would ya????? You know some of us are getting slow in our old age...
Bobbie, what would YOUR response to me have been?? All in good fun of course, LOL. You can even email it to me, I'd love to hear it, because you and I have such an interesting relationship, and are almost 2 peas in a pod. You're absolutely right, I knew I was pushing boundries, which I try not to do TOO often, but once in a while my inner kid comes out. (Stop laughing, Bobbie!!!!!) I promise to play nice, or take my ball and go home. (((((Everyone who I may have offended or irritated!!!)))))
I appreciate your LONG explainations, both Bobbie and Karen. It's true I'm very unaware of the relationships that have been built in the past and if I had known Crystal and Ginny were friends, I could have seen it as friendly advice. However without knowing this, and knowing Ginny is a moderator, it just looked like she was trying to "push her weight around" as you said. To me it seemed like during the thread most of the comments were similar and then Crystal came out with an opposing view and was immediatly stomped on. Obviously I know this wasn't the case now, but as a newcomer who is unaware of the relationship, there is no other way for me to see it. Also I don't know what a newcomer would think of your last comment: "Crystal, look what you did... Put your brat hat a way for a while and give us some time to get caught up, would ya????? You know some of us are getting slow in our old age..." I now understand that this is a joke but if I wouldn't have been involved in this post and simply read it, I would be quite offended that a moderator would use their power to say something so harsh.
Also I disagree that if Crystals opinion was different I wouldn't have had a problem with it, and I don't think you can make that judgement upon me, as you have not taken any time to get to know me as I am fairly new and if I recall Bobbie,(I could be wrong here), you have never said anything to me at all! I don't generally have a problem with other peoples points of views or their beliefs, I do however have a problem with people saying it in an unintelligent/hurtful fashion.
Thank you though for taking the time to explain the whole moderator situation. It was a lot to type but it was very helpful for me since I really did not know why Ginny didn't simply e-mail Crystal personally, instead of telling her to cool it. The things you mentioned after the double edged sword part were very helpful. As for being a moderator, I can understand that it can be a tough job, but it's the job you signed up for; and I think it is very important for you especially to be able to step back read the posts for what they are and not get to emotionally involved before answering and especially before criticizing. I do feel it is a very fine line though and I'm generally impressed with the job the moderators do here, but in this case I think it was a bit extreem.
Groove
Also this is from another post. Obviously I disagree with Deanna, if you've read any of my other posts, but she TACTFULLY makes her point.
"I think it's a moral issue Crystal. If you believe that gay marriage is morally wrong, then there's no way you want that to become legalized. Likewise from a parent perspective, if you think gay marriage is morally wrong, you don't want to explain to your child that "Hey, gay marriage is morally wrong but we live in a country that allows it because basically you can do whatever you want here with no morals, rules, or code of ethics because here, anything goes". How can we teach our children that yes, lines are drawn *somewhere at some point*, you know? For me, as a completely pro-life, anti-choice person, I'm going to say to my daughter (based on my beliefs) that "yes, we allow murder of unborn babies in the United States, but child molesters walk free. In the US dear Natalie, you can't murder your neighbor without punishment, but you can murder an innocent unborn child." That is a completely factual statement to her from my perspective. Will I be friends with my fictious neighbor whos had 5 abortions? Absolutely! Is it my business? No way. But when it comes to laws, you can bet that it's a serious issue with me and I will try to make my voice heard."
Groove, I'll be the first to admit it takes time to understand the personalities of the members here. Ginny didn't originally email me off the boards, because her job is to show the members that they are monitoring the situation, and although it was directed at me, it applied to more than just me. Of course, Bobbie's comments stem from her watching me grow from a 20 year old new mom with a fiesty attitude, to a 23 y/o mom, who's learned to tone it down a bit. I guess I should explain I know a few of the mods and Bubbels (admin), as well as her daughter Amy, because Amy and I were stationed together with our husbands at Ft. Hood and became friends. A lot of the people here know me well enough to tease, or even scold me, without me getting upset. This DOES NOT mean I get special treatment as far as my rules, I have to follow all the same rules the rest of the members do, and there are plenty of other members who have off board relationships, but the moderators do their job no matter who is involved. So, don't worry, you'll get to know all of us, and you'll love some of us, and hate others, we all have those kinds of relationships here. If I may give you one bit of advice, from my own experience, you should ease in gently lest we get the wrong impression. When you joined, you started a debate that hurt a lot of people, and that kind of thing can really turn members off to you. I'm not saying don't be yourself, I'm just suggesting you chose your words carefully until we get to know the "real" you. It's just my advice, take it or leave it.
Good catch Crys.. Very good insight.. ^5
By the way, I know who you are Groove... I read every day, several times a day.. I don't always get to post.. Because with my real life and other duties on here it can be very time consuming. I have spent half of my day on here already as it is just dealing with this and the God/religion post.. I know when you joined, I can tell you several of the topics you have voiced your opinion on and what your opinion was in those post. Just because you don't see people posting and bantering with you doesn't mean they aren't reading what you have had to say. We have many many lurkers (people that come here and read but choose not to post). Like Crys suggested, it is a good idea to try to get to know the people here and see their interaction before you take offense to anything. It doesn't take much time, most of our members are very open about their situations..
Boy do we need a good presidential election to calm us all down!!LOL
ROFL Michelle!!!!!!!!
Well what's done is done. When I joined I thought debate meant debate, I didn't know people would be so easily offended by making a topic stand out as I learned to do in debate class. I NEVER heard a debate topic that was appealing to both sides. And like I said what's done is done. I didn't know people would be so offended and I didn't mean it that way. And as Crystal said I probably should have eased into it but it's too late for first impressions and probably a lot of people think poorly of me now and it shows in some of their posts. So I think it would be better if I left this group.
Thanks for being so kind Heaven.
And it was nice to meet you Crystal and hear your very similar views to mine.
I don't want to cause any problems here, and I can't make a first impression twice, so I'll bow out gently.
Groove
Groove, no one is saying you should leave... really!! This can be WONDERFUL place, just give us time to get used to you. LOL, they all had to get used to me and my attitude!!!!
I like you Alyssa (because you are the only one from MInnesota ), please don't leave...
I am also a newbie here and most of the time i feel like an outsider. But i don't care i don't think you can never really know anyone you meet in a board like this. This board appealed to me because it's polite compared to other boards where you can see some written stuff you rather didn't. I can say i like some of the ladies here but they (we) are so different that you couldn't possibly imagine to get along with everyone.
As Bobbie said this is a public board (privately owned BUT open to the public) i have been accepted to post here for which i am grateful and i understand the rules of the game. I come here to vent, to seek advice, to offer advice, and to see if something interesting or funny is being said. I can choose to join in or not, nobody is forcing me but when i do i do it with an open mind and with the certainty that nobody is out there to get me.
I have disagreed with many in many topics but the feeling of being listened to when i have a problem (have you ever used the anonymous feature? it's wonderful because when there is something really serious you want to talk about, people respond to your posts, not to you and that makes all the difference) compensates fot all the other times when no-one responds to my posts.
So there you are, don't be like that and forget about what some of the ladies or moderators might think of you. As long as you abide with the posting rules and you are getting something positive out of this board i don't see the need for you to leave. And with time, you'll see that you too can contribute with some useful advice to someone's life (which in the end is what makes this such a great board to be in).
There is many of us who are jolly nice, if you know what i mean .
Boy oh boy, I have stayed out of the debate section on purpose for a while now....but ALYSSA, please do not leave our site! I haven't read the whole ordeal, but diversity is a wonderful thing and it sounds like you may have been trying to stick up for someone....I am not even going to go and read because I will get caught up and I don't have the time!
No one wants you to leave!
Groove, there really is no reason for you to leave the board. REALLY.
I see now, that it's probably difficult, and also confusing, for new members when they have no way of knowing the relationships between long-time members both on and off the board, therefore, not understanding or being comfortable with certain responses to them, particularly from moderators.
This is nothing personal against you. Under different circumstances, your post defending Crystal may have been totally warranted.
As for what you said about DEBATE, yes, no debate is appealing to both sides. Obviously! When debating, everyone has strong feelings and they most often try to convince, or sway the person with opposing feelings to their side. And when religion, politics, etc. come into play, it's more *prickly*.
And I guess the bottom line, on *this* board anyway, is that we try to prevent flaming, we try to prevent witnessing, we try to consider the feelings of the group as a whole, and maybe in our attempts to keep things peaceful, it appears we overstep in moderating things. But we are doing what we think is best, and we know we can't make everyone happy all of the time. I think most of our members though, appreciate the way the board is run, even if they don't agree with our decisions all of the time, because if you've ever belonged to an un-moderated board, it gets VERY ugly and vile things are said to people, that can't be taken back.
So, please don't feel that you have to leave the board, I doubt people think poorly of you. And I'm sorry that you feel that way, what Crystal said about easing in was meant in a helpful way, that much I know for sure. Give yourself and the rest of us another chance.
Don't go, Alyssa - don't go ...
Ame
LOL Alyssa, if you knew how many times I ticked people off when I joined, you'd LYAO!!! (As you can see, I still do sometimes!!) I really did mean my advice in a BTDT, friendly way.
Best wishes, Groove!
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