Denial of communion to lesbian couple
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Denial of communion to lesbian couple
http://www.insightbb.com/story.aspx?doc=ONLINE/D8OAJT783.xml&top=NEWS
I'm appalled at the denial of communion. I would love to hear others thoughts on this.
First, I am not Catholic, so I don't know all the particulars, but I absolutely do NOT agree with the couple's parish priest who said, "The sin is one thing. It's a very different thing to go public with that sin." The church should NOT allow other sinners to take communion just because The other Catholics are "not going around broadcasting, `Hey I'm having sex outside of marriage' or `I'm using birth control.'"
A sin is a sin no matter who knows about it. Even God knows it's a sin even when NO ONE is looking. Since the church's governing body has decided what the consequences will be when a member knowingly persists in sinful behavior, then the consequences should be doled out across the board, regardless of the publicity of the sinner at the time when anyone such as an elder or a priest becomes aware of the circumstances. The fact that the lesbian couple went public is completely beside the point.
Second, Communion is a sacred ritual reserved only for those who are wholeheartedly dedicated to their religion. If these women were truly serious about their religion then they either wouldn't be gay or they would respect Communion for the sacred ritual that it is and voluntarily refrain. It's not like the church said that they could not attend mass. It just said that they could not partake in Communion.
The rules in the Catholic Church are different from many Protestant churches. And every church has the right to make its own rules. I am fairly sure, without research, that a Catholic should not take Communion until they have (a) made a good confession and (b) done their penance. It is my expectation that a lesbian living in a committed relationship could not promise to stop committing what is, in the eyes and rules of the Church, a sin - and, probably a "mortal" sin. She would have to commit to ending the relationship and living a celibate life. (Of course, unmarried heterosexuals who are sexually active are also in a state of sin and should confess, do penance, and try to stop sinning - at least that particular sin). As I understand the Catholic Church rules, these women could not have completed the requirements. Of course, usually the priest doesn't keep a list of who's been to confession and who hasn't (at least, not in these times), and I doubt a priest would bar someone from communion with the exclamation - you haven't been to confession. That said, the priest knew that these women were living in a relationship that the Catholic Church considers sinful, and the Church has the right to make its own rules. I do wonder, however, if the same priest would bar a convicted drug dealer from Communion - or a heterosexual couple living "in sin".
I happen to be a member of a United Methodist church which is a Reconciling Congregation - that is, we have formally, by an action of the congregation as a whole, made a statement to the body of the United Methodist Church that we do not believe that homosexuals should be barred from the ministry; nor do we believe that homosexuality is inherently sinfu. We believe that our church should bless committed unions and, wherever possible, work towards achieving legal equality for homosexuals. This is particularly fortunate for me because my oldest son is gay and in a committed relationship. In my/our church, he is comfortable, feels welcome, and is an usher.
However, not too long ago a United Methodist minister removed from the membership roles of his church a man who came out of the closet, because "homosexuality is inconsistent with Christian teachings" by the church's rules. This went all the way to the top body within our church that rules on such matters, and they upheld the right of the pastor to deny/remove membership for that reason. Which I find disgusting.
In my church we have Communion on the first Sunday of each month (except during Lent and Advent). At the time of Communion, the pastor announces: This is the Lord's table, and all who seek the Lord's blessing are welcome. And that is the only requirement - seek the Lord's blessing.
All of that said, I grew up in Chicago. Notorious members of the "mob" - people convicted and sentenced who continued their lives of illegal mob behavior after their release - were usually, though not always, "faithful" members of various Catholic churches. These guys were in the newspapers several times a month - often on the front page. None of them were ever denied Communion.
I wish the Church would deny communion to those priests who have been rightfully accused of child molestation - from what I've read, some of them at least are not repentant.
Ah, hypocrisy - it's wonderful. And the whole arena of sex and sexual relations gives such opportunities for hypocrisy. As a piece of interesting information, at one time the owner of the largest number of brothels in London was the Church (that, of course, was in the pre Henry VIII days) and that didn't seem to be a problem.
Hypocrisy at it's best....
Ginny, it is my experience that there are men/women of all branches of the church that have their hands on both sides of the fence, the Catholics and the Mob types don't have a corner on this one for sure.
I bet the Papacy is grasping their chests over this making it into the news and I bet the PC people of the world will eat this up... But I also think that this isn't a new issue and in time it will be brushed under the pews like so many other issues are....
Well, I sure did something stupid. Here I am, all over the internet, opining about church procedure and I didn't even use the link to read the story.
:-o (me blushing)
Now that I've read the story, it reads like the priest and parish all knew the women's relationship and didn't make any waves until they got into the press because of their advocacy activity. I do think that put the priest in a bind, and if he hadn't acted he could have had a Cardinal or two on his case. That doesn't make the Church's position any better, but does, to my mind, make the priest's action understandable.
That is the church that my ds goes to preschool in, although I am not Catholic (my dh is).
There has been a lot of debate on it in the local open forum & I feel very bad for the couple. My understanding is they have done a lot for the church communtiy & it just doesn't seem right.
I see it this way: there are two Catholic churches. The churh of faith that everyone who is RC goes to, and the Church of Rome - all the rules that no American Catholic could ever really adhear to. A Catholic by faith, birth, whatever, goes to church and practices Catholicism in the best way he or she can. Call them pick and choose Catholics, if you like.
Many times a priest will be aware of a situation that does not fit in with the politics of the church and will turn a blind eye, as long as what is being done is not flagrant.
Once this couple outed themselves and started being very public in their behavior, the priest had no choice any longer.
I am in a similar situation. I am married in the Episcopal church to a man who is divorced. My marriage is not recognized by the RC church. Therefore, according to the church I am (a)fornicating and (b) committing adultury. Do I believe I am doing either of those things? Do I think God thinks I am sinning? No. However, I respect the rules of the Roman Catholic church and would never present myself for communion there, knowing that I am no longer "in communion" with the church.
Frankly, the wrong is with the couple. They know the rules. They can go to church and pray, they and go to confession, but they should not have gone to communion. They put themselves, their priest and their parish in a very bad position.
Ame
I am a Roman Catholic "technically," but I choose not to attend the Catholic church because...I must confess.... DH and I use birth control! LOL  I don't think God is *mad* about that. We have accepted FOUR precious BLESSINGS, but financially and physically we cannot handle any more. I don't think it's selfish of us not to have more children, nor do I think we should stop having sex ;) SOOOO....we are "sinning" in the eyes of the church, but the LORD I believe in and worship is very pleased with the fact that DH and I have been happily married for almost 20 years, and are loving parents to the four children we have been blessed with.
Well, I *did* read the link, but religion and homosexuality are such hot button topics, I am hesitant to even comment.
All I am going to say is, simply being serious about your religion will not and cannot make you *not gay* - I truly believe if you are gay/lesbian, you are born gay/lesbian, it is not a learned behavior and you don't have a choice, and in *my* opinion, whether you are gay or not, has (or should have) nothing to do with your beliefs in God or whether or not you can take communion.
So before I get blasted for that, I will add, I was raised southern Methodist, witnessed severe hypocrisy in the church and its members when I was young, have been living in an area that is predominently Catholic for nearly 40 years, have seen extreme hypocrisy surrounding that and other religions, have close friends who have denounced their Catholic roots and I no longer belong to a church.
Further, I have liberal views concerning homosexuals and all the issues surrounding their *legal* or *illegal* unions, and actually support gay marriage and all that goes with (health insurance benefits, survivor's benefits, etc.). I also freely admit I am somewhat *ignorant* when it comes to *rules* of any given religion, but I believe that, right or wrong, homosexuals were put on this earth just the way they are, for a reason, and they should be accepted just as they are as long as they are in consenting relationships.
And I'm not going to say anything more, because I know many members feel very differently, and I don't want this to get oocky.
Karen,
I agree that homosexuality is not a choice but a way a person is made. I also know that the Roman Catholic church will never accept homosexuality, just as it will never accept sex outside of marriage, or accept remarriage without first obtaining an anulment, birth control, a priesthood that is not based on gender or celibacy,or the mirad of other things enlightened people in the United States show tolerance for, if not outright acceptance.
Recieving communion means two things, it is a communion with Christ and an affimation that you believe the same things as those taking communion with you.
If you are openly engaging in any activity that is contrary to the teachings and belief of the Roman Catholic church, then you should not present yourself for communion there.
That's what the Episcopal church is for . I have found it to be a much more tolerant place and a church hierarchy that accepts social and scientific growth more readily than a great deal of mainstream churches, especially in NY.
And yet ... even having become an Episcopalian, I still have pangs for my roots. I don't want my children growing up in an atmosphere of religious hypocrasy, but I want them to "make their first Holy Communion" - which the Episcopal church does not make a big deal of.
Ame
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