yes or no?

Ok, I'm not much of a debater and I don't come to this board often so I guess I'm not really here to debate but I thought this might be too much of an emotionally charged topic for the general board. Recently I caught a brief snippet from a program that Barbara Walters did called Heaven. In the segment I viewed, she interviewed a geneticist that believes he has discovered a "Faith" gene. Wherein if you have this gene you are more likely to have religious faith or belief in God regardless of your family upbringing.

Here is a brief article that explains it much better than I can.

Faith Gene

I would say that I'm not a strong believer in afterlife, God, religious faith etc., however religion in general has had a positive effect on my life and I do in some ways believe that having religion in society is a "good thing" excluding however all the wars fought in the name of "Faith".

Anyway after all that I do think there is some validity to this gene research even though I have not read the book or done much research. I probably don't have the gene.

I'm curious to know what you think.

By Ginny~moderator on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 07:27 am:

Personally, I think it's bosh, and I agree with the clerics who decry the notion that belief is hard-wired.

Here is a review of the book and Hamer's work by Carl Zimmer in Scientific American. He comments that Hamer's work has not yet been peer reviewed, and is only one study.

In his final paragraph, Zimmer notes:
"The God Gene might have been a fascinating, enlightening book if Hamer had written it 10 years from now-after his link between VMAT2 and self-transcendence had been confirmed by others and after he had seriously tested its importance to our species. Instead the book we have today would be better titled: A Gene That Accounts for Less Than One Percent of the Variance Found in Scores on Psychological Questionnaires Designed to Measure a Factor Called Self-Transcendence, Which Can Signify Everything from Belonging to the Green Party to Believing in ESP, According to One Unpublished, Unreplicated Study."

Zimmer also notes, writing of shoddy science writing:
"In 1993, for example, a scientist reported a genetic link to male homosexuality in a region of the X chromosome. The report brought a huge media fanfare, but other scientists who tried to replicate the study failed. The scientist's name was Dean Hamer."

So, in the end, it appears that Hamer has touted another high publicity study with controversial results, which has not been peer reviewed and which has not been tested by other scientists. It's a shame that a scientist stoops to such things, which only harms other scientists and valid studies.

I think, as one commentator noted, it is bad science and bad theology.

By Hol on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 12:47 pm:

I do wonder why, tho Ginny, that some people are very spiritual, and some (as Heaventree described herself), are not so. I used to think that it is nurture, but there are countless families with very devout parents, and one or two of the children will not be. My sister is not a real spiritiual person. She believes in God, but doesn't really practice a faith of any kind. I, however, have always been a devout person. Even when I was real little, I remember praying. I am Christian by belief and doctrine, but I am very open minded and believe that we can learn something from everyone. If I can ever find the time to audit a college class, I would love to take comapartive religions or philosophy.

I think that there is something in us that makes us spiritual. Believers in metaphysics and reincarnation (of which I am one) believe in "soul age", in that "old souls" are more spiritual and serene. I think that I may fall into that category.

I don't know about the "faith gene' but it is an interesting theory. I do believe that there is something in us that makes us seek a power higher than ourselves. Ancient civilizations, like the Mayans for example, sought out a higher power.

By Marcia on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 05:14 pm:

I don't know about the gene, but did want to share a story. I have 4 siblings, and my younger 2 brothers were adopted. We were brought up Anglican, and attended church fairly regularly. The Anglican church uses prayer and hymn books rather than reading right from the bible. One of my younger brothers read the bible every night, and has read it many times. He has studied many different religions. At one point he considered becoming a minister. When he was about 18 he did a birth family search. In his social history, he discovered that his birth father almost went to school to become a Catholic priest.
At the present time, my mom and I are the only ones who still attend church. My brother continues to read the bible, from what I understand. I am sure that some of his belief system came from his bio dad, since the way he chose to study religion was not the same as what we were doing at church as kids.
I think that most of my spirituality came from my dad. While my mom is a strong believer and has attended church most of her life, my dad was a very spiritual man.

By Pamt on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 06:33 pm:

I don't know that I buy into that gene per se (and I did see that special). However, I do think that some people of more spiritually sensitive and faith is easier for them. I am one of those people. Faith is very easy for me and I am a somewhat skeptical person by nature. I am in a scientific field that demands hard evidence, but my faith is God is real and makes sense to me. (There is also a great deal of archaeological, sociological, literary, etc. evidence of many things described in scripture as well). My oldest son has always had great spiritual insights even as a 2 y/o.

I am of the belief that everyone is born with a God-shaped vacuum such that we will always feel some empty part of us until it is filled up with God. Can I prove it? No, but that's where faith comes in. I think that's why there are so many lonely and dissatisfied people in the world who are trying to fill up that void with things like drugs, sex, alcohol, or even things like family, children, food, etc. That hunger though can only be filled by God Himself.

Hol mentioned Mayans, but actually every culture/civilization on the earth has or continues to worship some deity or higher power. I think that is genetically programmed into us by our Creator, who I know as God (and my God isn't the same as Allah, Buddha, etc.--He doesn't have pseudonyms or aliases).

As for my story, you know I am married to a pastor. Neither one of us came from churchgoing homes. My family went occasionally on Easter and Christmas and DH's family went to church for a brief period of time when he was in middle school. We both separately came to have a personal experience with God in middle school and really began growing in our faith in high school. My sister attends church with her family, but I see her as being "religious" and not truly having a spiritual relationship. My brother became a Christian about 3 years ago after years of trying to fill that vacuum with alcohol, financial success, career, and girlfriends. He is truly a new creation!

So, a gene? Not so much, but I do think that faith is a much easier concept for some people than it is for others.

By Luvn29 on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 07:44 pm:

I'm not able to debate this, but I did want to mention to Hol that there are some very good distance learning courses in religion that I had to take for my degree. I took it at home, didn't go to the campus for any classes. It came with two excellent books and DVD's that I borrowed from the college library. I learned a lot from the class. You may want to look into something like that from a local college, if you feel you don't have time to attend classes...

By Amecmom on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 09:26 pm:

Isn't there something in scripture about a person's name being written in God's book of salvation and you are saved only if your name is there (or something like that)? Therefore, if this gene thing is accurate, couldn't this be the "writing". Just a thought ...
Ame

By Luvn29 on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 09:32 pm:

Well, once you are saved, THEN your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Not the other way around. In Christianity, everyone has free will, so everyone has the same chance to be saved. It is a decision each individual makes, not one already made for you. I guess the only part about this gene thing I have difficulty with, would be the fact that not everyone would have a fair chance to be a born again Christian and make it into Heaven. I can't imagine that God would give some people a "headstart"!

By Dana on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 11:06 pm:

I can't even guess at which part of the bible I have heard this, but I do recall studying and our Sunday school class debating the bible saying something about "hardened hearts" and those hearts predestined to remain hard...meaning lack of belief or faith. Also there is something about there being a finite number of souls that make it to heaven. I'm not quoting anything, this is just the bits and pieces I remember. Hopefully someone here can expand on my small rememberance of this class.

So when I heard about this gene theory, I just figured it fit what the bible had said. That doesn't mean I take this theory to heart, just that if it is true, it makes sense to me.

By Amecmom on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 11:16 pm:

Yes, Dana, I remember something like that. Als, I remember a Pastor's sermon once talking about the parable of the workers in the vinyard. The just was that no matter what you did on earth if you name was written in the book, you would enter the kingdom of heaven. I don't think you were "saved" as in the born again saved first. I think it was that you were either going to heaven or not.
Now, I have to research this, because it does fly in opposition to free will. Mmmhh ...
Ame

By Pamt on Monday, January 1, 2007 - 12:22 am:

Predestination is a whole different subject in and of itself. As for there only being a finite number of souls in heaven that is not biblical at all. However that is believed in some cults, most notably by Jehovah's Witnesses. And the book of Revelation talks about believers' names being written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

By Heaventree on Monday, January 1, 2007 - 07:14 pm:

Wow, some interesting insights. I think I still believe in the gene theory though. I really do believe that we are far more nature than we are nurture. Whether it's natural selection or gene theory, frankly they seem the same to me.

It's funny, I did not know my father until I was 17 years old and he and I are so much alike in so many ways. Matthew is just like DH and Cameron is all me, we can tell their personality types right from the start.

As for the bible, I cannot debate what scripture says I have virtually no knowledge despite the fact that I attended private Catholic school for most of my childhood and adolescents. I'm sure we learned all about it, but I have no memory whatsoever.

DH is far more spiritual than I, when I told him about this post he seems to remember reading in the book of Revelations that there are only 140,000 places in Heaven. If that's the case isn't Heaven already full?

By Heaventree on Monday, January 1, 2007 - 07:40 pm:

>>>> I am of the belief that everyone is born with a God-shaped vacuum such that we will always feel some empty part of us until it is filled up with God. Can I prove it? No, but that's where faith comes in. I think that's why there are so many lonely and dissatisfied people in the world who are trying to fill up that void with things like drugs, sex, alcohol, or even things like family, children, food, etc. That hunger though can only be filled by God Himself. >>>

Sorry just also wanted to comment on the above comment from Pam, I'm not sure I buy into the God shaped vacuum about people feeling empty if they don't have God in their lives. I'm not partially dissatisfied with my life, I have ups, downs and the usual struggles but so do most people who have a great deal of faith. I think that people find peace, happiness and/or satisfaction from all sorts of things in life. Some people have strong faith in God, some people meditate (not necessarily in a spiritual way but a reflective way), and some people find a great sense of peace from working out! While others find it in relationships with their families or work they do within their communities. There are plenty of people that have God in their lives and are overweight or have alcohol and drug addictions or dependencies.

Anyway, perhaps I misunderstood maybe you can expand on that.

By Hol on Monday, January 1, 2007 - 09:30 pm:

Heaventree - I totally understand what you are saying about being like one parent or the other. I am like my Dad, my sister is my Mom all over. My DD is my DH 100% and my DS Danny was just like me. However, of my two adopted boys, Shawn is SO much like my DH and Michael is me. The boys had very little exposure to spiritual things before thay came to me, however, both are now spiritual, but Michael much more so. So, I don't know either.

By Unschoolmom on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 07:26 am:

I tend to think people have personality traits that predispose them to believe in god but that it's not hardwired. I don't buy into the God vacuum either. It's a rather condescending concept (when generalized to all people) to those who have no belief in God and directly contradictory to my experience with atheists and agnostics, many of whom are happy, good and content people with no sense of missing something.

By Reds9298 on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 08:16 am:

I also disagree with the 'God vacuum' idea. Ditto Heaven and Unschoolmom's comments on that particular concept.

By Ginny~moderator on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 11:53 am:

I am following this discussion with interest. Heaventree, you probably didn't learn much scripture in Catholic schools. It has long been a tenet of the Roman Catholic church that the church/priest interprets scripture to the faithful. One of the many points of the "reformation", of Martin Luther and others, was the each person should read and interpret the Bible for him/herself (usually himself in those days) and, thanks to Gutenberg, relatively inexpensive copies of the Bible were available. Now, in my Lutheran schools, we read and memorized a lot of scripture, and I can still quote, word for word, the King James version of the nativity story, which I memorized and recited annually from 3rd to 7th grades.

Predestination - I did a little googling on predestination after seeing it mentioned in this thread, and to my mind it is an absolutely horrible concept. The God I believe in gave humanity free will and only wants those souls who come to God willingly and knowingly out of their free will, not anyone who comes from genetic, vaccuum, or predestination reasons.

By Kaye on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 03:59 pm:

I am a believer in the "God Vacuum". I think we all have this need in us to be full. However, while I think God designed us to have this hole to be filled, plenty of people fill it with other things. Some of those things are bad for us, and still leave us empty. But I think plenty of people fill that whole with their careers, their families, money, etc. It isn't all bad. But I do think we were made to need more than we can provide to ourselves. It isn't condescending to those who don't believe in my God, and although for me that is the right way to fill that hole. I do think others fill it in different ways.

By Unschoolmom on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 04:09 pm:

Ginny - which version in King James? Matthew, or Luke? Once I started studying the bible I was a little startled to see that the version I grew up with, the one of popular culture and school concerts, isn't even in the bible...That's it's an amalgam.

By Ginny~moderator on Monday, January 8, 2007 - 06:47 pm:

Luke is the one I prefer. "And it came to pass in those days that there went out a decree from Caesar Agustus" ... to where the shepherds "found the babe, wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger."

I know what you mean, Dawn. It wasn't until I was well into my 30s that I realized that there are two creation stories, AND two stories of how Eve was created - in one she is created simultaneously with Adam, but the one that is told to most of us is that she was created from Adam's rib. One time, for fun, I tried tracking down all of the verses for Handel's Messiah, and found most of them - talk about amalgam.

By Cocoabutter on Tuesday, January 9, 2007 - 02:30 am:

I have purposely not read the debate board since early December cuz things got so very busy with the holidays and I knew I would spend too much time on this. I also haven't read any of the responses at all, but I did read the article, and I just thought I would really quick get my thoughts down, and later read the rest of the thread.

I think we all have "The Faith Gene." But, we all may not have it in the same degree. For example, we all have a gene that is responsible for the development of our noses. But, we don't all have noses of the same shape and size.

Likewise, some have a difficult time dedicating themselves to a religion, and some find it natural to believe.

I know that this isn't going to make much sense to a non-believer, and I haven't figured out how to explain it so that a non-believer might see why or how I believe what I do. That's probably why so many religious debates get out of hand- it becomes nearly impossible for both sides to see where the other is coming from.

So having said that, I believe that our Creator (God) designed our universe and us all the way down to the most minute detail. He thought of literally everything.

I will never forget how I felt when I came home with my ds when he was a newborn. My mom had given me an audio tape of lullabyes, and I cried everytime I put it on. I cried everytime I held him. I cried everytime I watched him sleep. He was just so precious. Then it occurred to me- during these all important first few weeks, this hormonal response to my baby is designed to facilitate mother-child bonding.

I tend to agree with the last paragraph of the article,

"Religious believers can point to the existence of God genes as one more sign of the Creator's ingenuity — a clever way to help humans acknowledge and embrace a divine presence," he said.

If this gene exists, it is because He put it there.

By Unschoolmom on Tuesday, January 9, 2007 - 07:15 am:

I think it's fine to talk about a faith gene if you're speaking metaphor. Metaphor is the language of faith (I am the light, Lamb of God). But when we start to see a concept like 'faith gene' as an objective reality then we need to meet different standards. We need evidence, peer review, scientific standards and by those stadards, the faith gene doesn't exist.

By Ginny~moderator on Tuesday, January 9, 2007 - 09:11 am:

Well put, Dawn. I agree entirely with your definitions. I am still not comfortable even with a metaphorical "faith gene", but I appreciate your differentiation.

By Imamommyx4 on Tuesday, January 9, 2007 - 08:03 pm:

In my mind the faith gene would be equivalent to predestination. And I don't understand it. Some of our pastors have discussed predestination, and 2 other concepts that go along with it and somehow they are supposed to go along with what our church doctrine states. But I just could not follow it.

When I was a kid, my mom was very "religious" to the point that it turned me away. As an adult I discovered my own path to the Lord. It does not match my mom's. If there is a faith gene, what happened to me? I hated religion until about 15 years ago.

What I do have faith in are: God created it all. Jesus was born, died and rose again on the 3rd day. God gave us all free will to choose. HE didn't want teddy bears or robots. He wanted us to just love him because we wanted to. I believe we get to Heaven by grace. Works should accompany faith. And I believe God wants us ALL to be in Heaven at the end. But He gave us all the information and told us to choose.

By Cocoabutter on Tuesday, January 9, 2007 - 08:45 pm:

Just from reading the article, it seems to me that if this faith gene exists, it simply allows a person to be either more or less open to believing in a higher power or surrendering one's life to one such being. I think the gene would make it possible for people who shun religion or faith to open their hearts to it later in life. Nothing more, nothing less.

To me it wouldn't mean that our path in life is all mapped out for us genetically. I mean, there is also a gene that has been identified that gives people a pre-disposition to alcoholism, but such a person still has the will to decide how they wish to live his/her life.

I understand too, Dawn, that this information still needs to be proven scientifically.

By Hol on Tuesday, January 9, 2007 - 10:31 pm:

Debbie - I totally agree with your last paragraph. That basically sums up what I believe, too. It has always been easy for me to believe in God.

By Imamommyx4 on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:49 am:

I have ALWAYS believed in God. But until about 15 or 20 years ago, I wanted nothing to do with churches or religion or any of those "hypocrites" as I frequently called churchgoers. I was adamant that God and I could have a relationship sitting on the back porch without the aid of reading a Bible, or doing a Bible study or ever hearing a sermon or listening to or singing praise music. But one night I couldn't sleep. It was a cold, January night. I had the strongest urge to get up and read my Bible of all things. I got up but watched tv for awhile. At about 1 am I finally got my Bible out and began to flip through and read hither and thither. At 2ish I was sitting snuggled in a big oversized chair wrapped in a blanket and read a passage that made me want to jump up and down and scream "Okay, I understand, I got it!" It was exciting. It did not feel like a genetic disposition had been realized. It felt like a God shaped hole was filled.

But like I said, I don't understand the concepts of faith gene, predestination, etc. Maybe there is, but like somebody else said, if it is there, it is b/c God put it there.

By Hol on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:16 pm:

Debbie - Isn't it wonderful, how when God has something He wants you to know, he will see to it that you get the information!

I, too, have been turned off by church people, especially church women. A close friend of mine is a really devout Christian and loves to go to "Women of Faith" conferences, and the like. She is always trying to get me to go, too. Not only are they expensive, because they involve an overnight hotel stay, but some of the harshest hurts that I have suffered. have been at the hands of some church people. Yet, conversely, sometimes church is where I have felt the most loved, too. I think that we tend to have unrealistic expectations sometimes about "church people". We forget that they are struggling humans, just like us.