Banning smoking in all public places
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Banning smoking in all public places
I know this has been discussed here before, but I regret that I missed out on those discussions, so this may be a rehash.
The mayor of Grand Rapids, Michigan is proposing that smoking be banned in all public places.
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=5382651
Any thoughts?
Wouldn't bother me any!
LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One of the reasons I love Florida- you cannot smoke in any restaurants etc! It is amazing! I am always so annoyed now when I go home to VA and have to smell smoke while I am eating! A "non-smokng" section is such a joke- you can smell it all through the restaurant!
LOVE IT!! We just got this passed to some extent in my city and boy was it a controversy. I'm actually surprised that it happened here. No smoking in public places, except bars here.
When I was in Seattle a few years ago, my MIL and I were waiting for the bus at an outside stop. She lit up and they came over the speaker and told her 'no smoking'. I loved it! Even outside, yet still a public gathering place.
Hate, hate, hate cigarette smoke and I don't think my family and I should have to suffer just because someone has an unhealthy addiction.
I would love it. I don't smoke and I hate second hand smoke.
We were in a restaurant once in which the non-smoking section was on a higher level than the smoking section. We were seated at a table at the edge of the rise with a partition of bars. Smoke rises and it rose right straight into our faces. It made me nuts.
And even when smoking is on one side of the restaurant and nonsmoking on the other, I still go home wreaking.
I can not wait until they do it here in Virginia. We still have smoking sections in restaurants. Although , I think most of the fast food places are all no smoking.
I do not smoke. I do not like being around smoke expecially when I eat.
We are a totally non smoking place, even in bars. They can have smoking tables outside, as long as they're not under an awning that's attached to the building. I'm in Ontario. I'm not sure if it's province wide yet, as far as bars go, but it is in all other buildings.
I was at Canada's Wonderland, which is a theme park, last weekend. They had designated areas that people could go to to smoke. Even though it's an outdoor place, it's still a public place.
I think it's great!
Well, I am going to be the odd one out, here. 
I believe that for the government to enforce such a law is infringing on our rights as citizens to consume legal substances and the rights of businesses to decide for themselves what kinds of policies to put in place.
From the article:
"He's [the mayor] proposing to ban smoking in private businesses, public businesses and enclosed public places, with exceptions for bars, restaurants, hotels and tobacco stores.
Along with banning smoking, the mayor's proposal would require companies to adopt written smoking policies, prevent smokers from lighting up less than 10 feet outside their workplace, near entrances, windows and ventilation systems, and post No Smoking signs."
If that is not government intrusion, what is?
Now if a business wants to ban smoking on its grounds and in its buildings, it has a right to do so. A business or an organization has the right to decide for itself what kind of image it wants to present to the public. It has the right to ban smoking in its public and private areas. The free market can then decide if that image will work for that business. If a restaurant bans smoking and business drops off, then it wasn't a good plan, and vise versa.
I agree that it may be a relief to go to a public place and not smell smoke. I personally don't like smoke. (dh quit smoking 3 years ago after smoking for 19 years, but my mom still smokes after 44 years.) I don't like the smell and I don't like what it does to walls and windows. However, that is my problem. In public, I have to tolerate all sorts of annoying, offensive and inconsiderate behavior from others, such as swearing and other belligerent acts, spitting, loud arguing, parents yelling at kids, kids screaming and crying, shoppers going thru the express lane with 30 items, loud music from cars parked outside the store entrance, double-space parking, people cutting me off in traffic AND THEN giving ME the finger, and the list goes on....
But I don't I write to my mayor or commissioners and ask that all the other annoying behaviors be banned as well.
I feel that government has chosen to discriminate against smokers, and in more than one way. In Michigan, for example, the governor increased our already high taxes on cigarettes by 50 cents a pack making Michigan the state with the second highest cigarette tax in the nation. She did it in an effort to balance the budget on the backs of smokers. This is not fair when there are so many other vices that could be taxed, and in fact are in many other states.
I am a smoker. I am a heavy smoker. I am fully in favor of these laws. We all know that smoking is very bad for your health, and for the health of those around you. While non-smokers can choose to not patronize businesses that allow smoking, it is much harder for the waiter or cook or busboy who does not smoke to make such choices. While it will make it inconvenient for me, I thoroughly approve of such laws - and one just went into effect in Philadelphia, with very few exceptions for very few bars (right now it is only bars that are just bars - that is, less than 20% of their income comes from food sales), and none for restaurants and hotels.
Most of the other annoying, offensive and inconsiderate acts you list, Lisa, while indeed annoying, offensive and inconsiderate, do not pose a proven risk to the health of others. (Cutting off in traffic can be a health hazard, I agree, but the finger isn't).
Rather than thinking the government has chosen to discriminate against smokers, think of it as discriminating in favor of the health of those wise enough to choose not to smoke (and oh, I wish I were one of them).
I'm all for taxing vices, although as far as I can tell, it doesn't stop people from indulging in them.
I agree with this to an extent, as a smoker. We are not permitted to smoke near my workplace, there is a designated smoking area away from the doors and ventilation areas. I don't mind not smoking in a restaraunt, but I would be quite upset if I weren't permitted to smoke in a bar. Still, I tend to agree with Lisa that it should be left up to the proprietor of the establishment, regardless of type, whether smoking is allowed or not. An interestng note, in Arkansas I was shocked to find cashiers smoking inside a gas station, and butt containers inside the stores. I guess that's legal there, but I don't think it's appropriate.
Ginny, you mention giving the finger as not being a health hazard. I'd disagree, since it got a gun pulled on us earlier this year.
If it were as simple as "I don't want to smell like smoke", then it would be a different story. However, as Ginny stated, second-hand smoke is a proven health hazard, which I think means that the gov't can and should intervene. alcohol is legal, although driving under the influence (even if not legally intoxicated) is a health hazard because the driver is impaired to some extent, so it's against the law. Smoking in public puts everyone in danger of the effects of second-hand smoke, so it should be against the law in public places. JMO
Ditto Crystal on giving someone the finger...I agree that it could be a health hazard!
We already have that law here. I think it was passed 3 or 4 years ago. Apparently we lost a lot of convention business because of it. I like it though. It's weird to go to another city and the hostess say, "Smoking or Non-Smoking?" Smoking? Huh? And then to smell smoke inside of places. It's very strange. Makes you wonder how you ever lived without the law.
Im glad for this law. I hate the smell and the way alot of people think they have the right to blow smoke in my face. I t was really funny when we drove across the country and wou ld enter a restaurant and they hostess would ask smoking or nonsmoking. its been so long since i had heard that ..that it caught me off gaurd and i asked one lady what she meant. she replied ur from out of town arent ya! lol yup i am. what u do to urself is ur business but whenu blow smoke in personal space and make it a health risk for me then i have a problem with it. so im all for n o smoking in public places no matter where it is. one town in calif near los angeles i bleive .. dont really remember where it is..but it banned smoking totally with in the city limits anywhere but ur own home.
I live in the same province as Marcia, you cannot smoke here in public places and I LOVE IT! There is even one province that is considering banning smoking in outdoor public places. I really wish they would keep smokers away from front doors of buildings. There is nothing worse than walking through a wall of smoke to enter a public place espically when you're pregnant. All places of business should have designated smoking areas outside away from building entrances and exits.
I think that smoking is much more than an annoying behaviour it is a public health risk, one that I have a right not to be subjected to. Here in Canada we have a public healthcare system, we as tax payers pay the debt that smoking causes our society. The risks of second hand smoke are real health risks. I haven't yet heard of anyone dying from some of the things listed above, but people do die from diseases caused by second hand smoke.
I hate having to smell smoke, when I watch the fireworks and it seems every year, we manage to sit near a smoking group. It never fails. I don't know if they could enforce that, on a crowded beach, once it gets dark out, though.
We noticed in Rapid City, South Dakota, that the restaurants all seemed to be non-smoking. It was nice.
All bars and restaurants, bowling alleys,etc. here have been smoke-free for several years. I LOVE it! The "smoking or non-smoking" thing was always a farce. No matter where you sat, you could still breathe in smoke. At first, businesses were crying that they would lose customers, but because it is accross the board, it didn't really affect business.
I smoked many years ago, but never indoors, not even at home. I don't like the smell of stale smoke. I HATE it in a car. Smokers make the choice to smoke. Non-smokers having to inhale passive smoke have no choice. And as Ginny stated, what about the workers in these places?
If I owned a business, I wouldn't allow smokers to stand outside of my establishment and smoke, either. The grocery store where my boys work allows the smokers to stand in front of the store on their breaks. It is bad for the customers who have to walk through the haze, and it doesn't look nice, with the employees wearing shirts representing the company.
The hospital where my DD works doesn't allow smoking ANYWHERE on the campus, not even in your own car in the parking lot. You will be written up.
We had a legislator try to pass a bill banning smoking at beaches and outdoor events, but it didn't pass. My thinking is, if they make it tough for smokers, they will smoke less, which is a good thing for everybody.
I remember the days when smoking was allowed in stores, airplanes, the beauty salon, barber shop. Even my OB/GYN, when I carried my oldest DS in 1975...he would examine you, then have you come into his office to talk. He would light up. Smoking was allowed in banks, offices and factories. Even in hospitals!! When my Dad was a cancer patient in the hospital in the early '80's, I would see patients pushing their IV pole down the hall, smoking. It's seems incredible now.
There were many things not good about the "good old days".
There's no smoking anywhere on the clinic grounds where I work, yet I still see people smoking outside the doors. (not staff) I don't feel comfortable telling people they can't smoke there. There are signs, etc. I don't like walking though a cloud of smoke to get to work, though.
Dawn, on that note, there is no smoking on the campus of the hospital where Madison had her leg set. I can understand designated smoking areas away from the entrances, but it was VERY stressful for us the night we spent there with her, and having to leave the grounds to take turns smoking was not helping.
Crystal, I just want to start off by saying I'm not picking on you, I'm just curious. I think typically when people who smoke are stressed out, smoking relieves some of that stress, but when you are being restricted from smoking more and more in public places does it ever make you think of quiting? Again, I'm just curious as to what your thought are.
Ditto Lisa. I am not a smoker. I can't stand smoke. There were some teachers I used to go out to lunch with that smoked on our lunch hour and I had to stop going with them because I reaked of smoke after. However, if the governement is so concerned that smoking poses a health hazzard then they need to make tobacco illegal, rather than "sneaking out the back door" by legislating away people's rights. They will never take that step because tobacco companies are just too lucrative and have great lobbying power.
I sympathise with Crystal and her predicament at the hospital. Designated smoking areas are a better alternative to banning smoking in public places.
Ame
Let me add to this a little. I was a smoker for 2 years, smoked a pack a day, I chose to quit for many reasons. It has been in excess of 13 years since I smoked. Being in stressful situations, makes me want to smoke. At hospitals especially, I have been known to go hang out in the smokers section to get a hit
so not Crystal, but I can say, being told I can't smoke certainly doesn't make me crave it or want it less.
I do wish that restruants with smoking sections could section them off better. I hate having to walk through the smoke to go potty. And with my asthmatic son it can set him off very quickly.
Heaven, that is the hope of our mayor, to encourage everyone to quit by banning smoking in any public places.
It just gets better and juicier. On the heels of this proposal by the mayor, beginning Jan 1, the two major hospitals in our city are going to forbid their employees from smoking - not just while on duty - but also on their breaks and lunches, and they cannot come to work smelling like smoke, which translates into they cannot smoke at home before a scheduled shift.
There was a public forum held at a city commission meeting Tuesday night to discuss the mayor's proposed ban, and two gentleman each made a good point.
One said, "It's my business, I own the building, I should be able to smoke in my building."
The other said "Why should smokers be allowed to pollute and control the air we breathe when they are only 20 percent of the population of Michigan?"
The city commission will vote on this ordinance in 2 weeks. If passed, it would go into effect October 2007.
Ame - the Prohibition movement of the 1930's proved that, just because something is harmful for us, making it illegal doesn't stop it. When the manufacture and sale of alcohol was banned in this country, it created a whole underground industry. People were drinking toxic substances with no oversight or regulation.
If cigarettes were illegal, ways would be found to produce them anyway. The law doesn't stop the distribution and use of marijuana.
The best weapon is education... informing people of the risks and allowing them to make their own decisions, because ultimately our bodies are our own to do with as we want, come what may.
Kaye, I, too, miss smoking when I am very stressed. I guess nicotine is a potent tranquilizer.
Lisa - I DO think that it is a MAJOR infringement on people's rights to try to prohibit smoking in one's own home. I see a whole cottage industry springing up, of a deodorizer to mask cigarette smoke on one's person.
I do admit...I have had a medical professional working on me, drawing blood or whatever, and I am always surprised to smell smoke on them. Howver, people in stressful jobs do tend to smoke, i.e. paramedics, firemen, police officers.
Hol, that's exactly my point. The government has learned from Prohibition that the banned substance will not go away - the feds will just lose the tax revenue from the sale of it. So, what they are doing is quite hypocritical. It's legal to buy cigarettes, just don't smoke them .
Ame
Actually, I was 3 or 4 days into quitting when Maddie broke her leg. The sheer amount of stress made me give up. And being restricted doesn't ease the psychological cravings. I've tried the patch, it's not the physical cravings that get me, it's mental. I've given up other addictions/bad habits, and smoking is a lot harder than anything else I've ever broken.
Ex smoker here. I have to say I LOVE going to places that do not allow smoking. Since my asthma diagnosis 6+ years ago, I've pretty much stopped going to any bars in New Orleans (not that I went to them often, but still...) because I can't breathe. Unfortunately, for that reason, I'll never go back to the House of Blues or Tipitinas for concerts because of the smoke.
Smoking is a sore spot with me since my mom died of lung cancer. And even though my DH had a heart attack in 2000, he is still doing the smoking/stop smoking thing.
Quitting smoking was one of the easiest things I ever did. And I realize I'm in the minority with that. I've heard people say that getting off heroin was easier than stopping smoking, so I do understand how strong the addiction is. I only have a few friends who smoke, and I'd never nag them about their smoking. But I truly do worry about their health - for that matter, I worry about what effects my smoking has had or will have on my health in the future.
Side note - the hospital at which I had my hand surgery recently did not allow smoking on any of the grounds either.
And RE: Dawn's comment about walking through the cloud of smoke - I have to do that every time I go to one of my doctors. The medical office employees all go to the smoking area which just happens to be right between the parking garage and the elevators/entrance to the medical building, so you do have to walk through a cloud of smoke. Seems like they'd put the smoking area a bit farther away from the building entrance.
Also, in *most* restaurantas, non-smoking tables are pretty much a joke. THe air all goes through the same ventilation system and when there are tables of smokers who all light up after their meal or dessert, the smoke wafts over to the non-smoking tables, which in most cases, are only separated by 15 or 20 feet anyway.
As much as I try not to be a nicotine Nazi, I'd love to see our area ban smoking in all restaurants - only a small number of them already enforce that.
LOL- Nicotine Nazi! Good one!
Hol, you'll never smell smoke on me, unless I was near a smoker at a restaurant. It wouldn't be of my own volition.
Well, it's official. The city commision voted 5-4 to ban smoking in all public places (except bars, restaurants, and hotels) effective Oct 1, 2007. Now they just have to figure out how to enforce the ban.
They are doing research in the city of Marquette, MI where there is also a ban. It's not like the cops will search out people who are violating the ban, but if there are complaints, action will be taken.
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5548878
This ban has been in effect in the city I live in for almost 2 years now. I LOVE it!!!
I sure would, too! In all public places, does that mean, when everyone is all grouped together to watch the fireworks, that no one can smoke? We always manage to be near someone who is smoking, at the fireworks.
I'm all for banning smoking in ALL public places. Specially restraunts. I don't smoke, never have and never will. I feel it is a violation of my rights to have to be forced to breath that crap when I'm out in public. We don't eat out too often, and when we do we try to pick places that are non smoking. I don't think its fair for smokers to be able to light up and contaminate the air that us non smokers are breathing. I absolutly hate it when I walk into a business and there are employees standing at the door puffing away. It ruins my experience there and I am less likely to spend as much money as I probably would have. I really hate it when we are at the kids soccer games and the parents are standing on the side lines puffing away. Forcing the innocent people mostly children standing by to breath it in and damaging thier lungs. Then they have the nerve to stomp it out on the ground and leave the butts lying there, um hello there is a trash can on the way to the car clean up your mess. Ok sore subject with me, I could go on and on but I won't.
I'll say it again. This is just a back door way to make smoking seem like a crime - or something illegal. It's legal to buy cigs., pay taxes on them, but just don't smoke them. Gov't hipocrisy at it's best! One city with the ban wants people to call 911 and report it if they see someone smoking in a public place. Again an attempt to criminilize something.
I don't like smoking. I don't smoke. I think it's gross. BUT - I'll defend your right to do it in a designated area.
Ame
I wouldn't call 911 to report someone. People aren't supposed to be smoking outside the clinic where I work, but I would never say anything. I don't like confrontation. I just suck it up, and walk in. There is a sign, not to far, from where I've seen people smoke. I figure people know how to read.
I'm a heavy smoker. And I obey all smoking bans. The building where I work is a non-smoking building with one area set aside outside for smoking, around the side of the building, and that's where I go. Would I call 911 - no, that's a huge waste of police resources. Would I tell the person in charge - yes. If the person in charge didn't do anything or laughted it off, I might think about reporting it - I don't know. A couple of weeks ago I saw a man smoking on an underground train platform, where smoking has been banned for at least 10 years that I know of, and if I had seen someone in authority I would have reported him, but I wasn't up to confronting him myself.
As for people smoking near the clinic entrance, the security guards or clinic management should be enforcing their ban. The signs are there, so why doesn't the clinic enforce it. The hospital I usually go to has booths about 25 or 30 feet away from the entrance, specifically for smokers, and the security people will speak to someone smoking nearer the entrance.
Do I think it's a government conspiracy. No. If you think about it for two minutes, it is absolutely impossible for any government to control what people do in the privacy of their homes or in the open air. If they don't think so, they should read the history of Prohibition.
Kristie, could you start a group that would request separating the smoking parents from those who are non-smokers? Certainly, containers for butts should be provided if they are going to allow smoking. I agree about the dangers of second-hand smoke and the example for the kids. I know my dil would have a purple fit if I ever smoked in the same building with my granddaughter, and I fully understand and support her concern on that. I just wish I had the whatever it takes to quit.
I get really annoyed when someone comes into an area where smoking is permitted and I am smoking, and makes a big fuss about it. At the same time, I get really annoyed when people smoke in areas where they know it is either banned or it is causing obvious distress to other people there, when the smoker can move away a bit and not upset others. I guess what it boils down to is I can't abide deliberate rudeness, no matter what the reason.
Ame- You make very good points. I still stick with my view, but the way that you stated your thoughts made me think!
Ditto Ginny's last paragraph. I would NEVER complain about smoke in a designated area, I just wouldn't go to that designated area to begin with. DH and I RARELY if ever go to bars and that's the very reason - smoke. We just can't stand it so we don't go there. You can still smoke in bars here, but no where else. I love the atmosphere of a bar, but I can't go there because of the smoke. Likewise if the only seats available at a restaurant were in the smoking section, then we would just leave and have done so before. I just think "outside" should be the designated area everywhere...it doesn't affect anyone then.
It's been my experience that my parents and people their age (late 60's, at least in my experience) seem to be personally offended by the smoking bans, while younger smokers seem to be more understanding. My mom for example takes it soooo personally that she can't smoke in public...like she's a leper or something. I try to explain to her that SHE'S not the leper but the smoke is! She still can't get past it though. It's not like she says "Someone shouldn't be telling me I can't smoke", but instead she really takes it to heart. Like she's a bad person or something!
DH sometimes has to go to bars, to take pictures of Packer football fans. He hates it, because then he stinks like smoke the rest of his shift. I rarely go to bars, too. I don't drink much, and they're too smoky.
It does seem to me all the designated smoking places seem to be right near where I have to walk!
Ginny, I didn't mean it's an organized conspiracy. I do feel it is a way for local government to appease the health concious among us and protect themselves from lawsuits, while not interfering with big tobacco's lobbying power in DC or cutting in on the tax revenue the govt. gets from the sale of cigs.
The message that I get is: Buy 'em, but smoke them only in your home - and only if there are no children or elderly, or other people around who might be endangered by the puffing. And don't even think about having one on your own front stoop with your morning coffee.
It is once again the attempt of local govenment to legislate what's "good for us" as though we are incapable of knowing ourselves.
In NYC the mayor wants to ban all trans-fats from restaurant cooking. Yes, in 18 months, he'd like for it to be illegal to cook with certain oils.
Chicago banned goose liver pate - foir grois (I think it's spelled - but French was never my stong suite - neither is spelling in English for that matter .
Government is encroaching more and more on individual rights and I don't like it.
Ame
Foie Gras (you were very close!) It doesn't sound like something I would want to eat, anyway. I think the cooking oil law, is probably going too far. Do you think he is really going to go through with it?
(Don't worry. I can never spell "Hors d'oeuvre". I always have to google it! It's the word for munchies before dinner!)
I think the "pate foi gras" law in Chicago is silly. Background: it is based on the cruelty to the geese, not to human health issues. As for the trans-fat issues, I do think all food services places should be required to list their ingredients, and if you are cooking french-fries in transfatty oils, that is an ingredient. Beyond that, I think we have the right to kill ourselves in our own ways, and that includes cholesteral and calories.
However, I would point out that if I sit next to you eating McDonald's french fries (which I think are still the very best), other than maybe causing you to crave french-fries, it does you no harm. If, however, I sit next to you puffing on a cigarette, you are getting my second hand smoke, which provably causes harm.
As a smoker, I am finding more and more places where I can't smoke. But, I understand the health reasons behind it. I don't have the right to cause risks to other people with my second-hand smoke any more than I have the right to risk your health by dumping my garbage in the water supply.
I can agree with that, Ginny, that cigs cause health problems, and so on. (McDonald's French fries only taste good, if you get them fresh out of the fryer! If they have to sit, then they aren't as good.)
Ditto Ginny! I was just thinking today of exactly what you said in your second paragraph. All well said (as usual).
Ginny- I brought it up to the coach and she said that its not school property and the base doesn't have any rules against it so there is nothing she can do or say. As for the parents I think they over heard my concerns because they haven't been doing it as much.
Ginny, I agree to a certain point. My problem is that I see this escalating. We are on the slippery slope of way too much governmental control over individual rights.
I am serious when I say that I'm sure someday it will be a ticketable offense to have a cigarette with your morning cup of coffee on your own front stoop. Or - if you are somking in a house with chidren, you will be reported to child welfare.
We are entering a political wave of "you people don't know what's good for the majority, so we're going to legislate some health, and proper PC animal cruelty sentiment into you"
What's next? Outlawing Barbi dolls because we may be damaging the future mental health of our girls and boys by allowing them to play with them? I see it coming ...
Ame
"if you are somking in a house with chidren, you will be reported to child welfare."
I can see that happening. And, it wouldn't bother me one bit. 2nd hand smoke kills. Therefore, smoking around children puts them at harm. If a child is at harm, it should be reported.
My DH smoked for a few years, then gave it up.
We have a "mom and pop" type cafe here in town that has been run by the same people for about 15 years. It's called a "private" cafe, so that they can allow smokers inside. A lot of the farmers and ranchers go in for coffee and smoking and gossip. They recently changed it to a non smoking establishment because the owners have now developed emphysema. They have never smoked a day in their life, but have been right in the middle of 2nd hand smoke every day. It really is pretty sad. They are such a nice, loving couple.
I am all for banning smoking in each and every public place. Even banning smoking in cars with the windows down would be delightful. I'm always bugged when I get behind someone in the drive through or at a stop light that is smoking with their window down. I always have to roll up MY window, and give up MY fresh air.
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