Reincarnation..????
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Reincarnation..????
Since there has been a lot of discussion about death and bereavement this week, I thought I'd open up a new topic for discussion. I have been communicating with a young Mom who lost her 22 y/o son in March in a horrific car crash. She works with my DH. Up until it happened, she wasn't a particularly religious person, but now she is seeking answers.
Since I have lost a child, too, I have been trying to help her. I have always been a spiritual person, and that is what has gotten me through the pain. I am a member of the Episcopal church; Christian by belief and doctrine. However, comparative religion is one of my interests, and I believe that there is something to be learned from all. I have always believed in the supernatural; things that cannot be explained by science. I have had many paranormal experiences personally.
After Dan died, I started to "step outside the box" from what I been raised to believe. I just think that the way things really are is too vast to be narrowed down to one belief system, or explained too simplistically. Religion is good, in that it encourages us to reach beyond ourselves to our Creator and our own higher self, but we really need to open our eyes to so much more that is right around us.
I have come to believe in reincarnation. It just makes sense to me. I believe that we were created when God created the Heavens and the earth. I believe that we were with Him in Genesis, at the beginning. I believe, that because God loves us, he gave us free will. I also think that our souls need to grow, learn and progress, and the quickest way that happens is for us to incarnate (which literally means "in meat" or "in flesh"). Just as Jesus came to Earth in a physical body (not that HE had to learn anything), we do, too, but it is OUR choice, with God, when and how many times. It doesn't make sense to me that we only get one chance. What about the child who dies, or the physically or mentally challenged? Is it possible , that when people experience gender identity issues, that MAYBE they were the opposite sex in another life, and that their soul is remembering that?
I believe that, after we go back to God after each incarnation, that we can choose to say 'that's enough'. I want to stay "home" now (Heaven).
I know that, to some, this sounds "New Agey" and maybe even blasphemous. I respect that. I know that some people are very conservative in their views, and I certainly honor that. I'd just like to throw this idea out for discussion. A very learned woman, whom I respect greatly, told me that the concept of reincarnation was, at one time, a tenet of the Christian church, but that it was thrown out as a "control" device, using FEAR as a way of controlling people.
For the real conservative Christian Moms, I just want to say that I am "born again". I made a personal decision to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour when I was 24 years old. I am saved. And I do believe that Jeus had to die for our redemption. However, Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for ALL to enter Heaven. I just think that it takes many lifetimes for some to finally raise their consciousness to WANT to be with God for eternity.
The Hindus believe that our carnation comes about when we choose to separate from God. This is also referenced in the New Testament, when St Paul says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".
I hope I haven't opened up a can of worms here, but I'd really love to hear what you all think.
I believe it's entirely possible to be reincarnated. I'm an Agnostic, but I do believe in spirits, I know that DH's grandmother is his guardian angel. About 18 months ago he was speeding on a back road on Fort Hood, where the cattleman's association is allowed to let cattle graze. He had the radio up loud, and was alone, it was night, and raining a little. All of a sudden he heard someone say his full name, and "Slow DOWN!" He looked to his left (at the driver's side glass), and saw his grandmother's face. She died in July 2003. He was shaken up, so he stopped, and caught his breath. About 50 yards ahead was a curve in the road, he started driving again, slowly, and there was a steer standing in road, just past the curve. There is no way he would have seen it in time to stop, and he would have been killed if he hit it at that speed. I truly believe she was there, and warned him. So, back to reincarnation... I think it's a choice, if the spirit feels it has a different purpose, like looking over someone, it stays a spirit. If not, it reincarnates, probably to continue learning through life. Just my random thoughts on the subject, of course.
I too believe in reincarnation.I've never really been a religous person.I do believe in God. I do not go to church but I do teach the bible stories to my DD through tapes and books.I've had some very unusual experiences that happened to me that I can't just turn a blind eye.I've had an out of body experience.I get alot of stuff in my dreams.I watched Sylvia Browne once on T.V.for the 1st time and I was hooked.I couldn't believe that I could relate to alot of stuff she was saying.I wasn't the only one going through stuff like this.My family used to shake there heads when I mentioned certain things and they just didn't understand me.When people die it does give me comfort that they are around me and that we just don't die.We do have the choice to come back.I still have so much more to learn.
Sherri - Ditto here on so MANY of the things that you have said. I just think that some of us are more "attuned" to spirit than others.
I have most all of Sylvia Browne's books. She and James Van Pragh are big believers in reincarnation.
I totally believe in reincarnation and have also read Sylvia Browne and James Van Pragh and others.
I will give my honest opinion, and I promise not to be too emotional. 
we really need to open our eyes to so much more that is right around us.
I have always believed in the supernatural; things that cannot be explained by science.
As for reincarnation, sure it is probably real. But just because supernatural realities may exist doesn't make them all a good thing. Believing in anything other than the Bible as the Word of God opens a door for Satan and his demons.
The main reason that people dabble in the supernatural or research other religious teachings is because we all have a spiritual vacuum inside of us. God created us that way so we would search for Him. But many reject Him and attempt to fulfill themselves spiritually in other ways. While people who dabble in the supernatural may think they are gaining power and enriching their lives by their activities, in reality they are giving up all power in their lives to dark spiritual forces.
In 1 Samuel 28, we read that Saul wanted a word from God to tell him what he should do. The Philistines were about to attack Israel. Samuel the prophet had died so Saul couldn't consult him for advice as he used to do. So he tried to get an answer from God Himself. But God wasn't talking. Saul had lost God's blessing due to sin. So he was now on his own.
With the help of some of his men, he located a witch in hopes of communicating with his dead adviser Samuel. It was difficult to find one. As a king Saul had run all the witches out of Israel in accordance with Scripture. This proves of course that Saul knew witchcraft was wrong. But he was so desperate to know how he should proceed that he was willing to sin to get his answer.
Once a witch was found in Endor, she was reluctant to help. Saul had put on a disguise so no one would know he was consulting a witch. So when strangers showed up at the witch's door asking her to contact the spirit of a dead prophet, she was afraid that it was a trap. She knew if she were caught practicing witchcraft, the king would have her put to death. Little did she know it was the king who was asking for her help. Saul convinced her that she would be safe. So she agreed to help.
Saul's sins over the years had given the devil a foothold in his life. Once the King of Israel with God's blessing, he had now turned against God to the extent that when he cried out to God, the silence from heaven was deafening. This didn't lead him to repentance though. This led him to witchcraft and further rebellion. The witch did speak with Samuel's spirit. Samuel told her and Saul that the Philistines would be defeated. Even worse, Saul and his sons would be killed. Samuel said, "Because you did not obey the LORD..., the LORD has done this to you today. The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines" (1 Samuel 28:18-19).
Our role as Christians is first to make sure that we don't give the devil a foothold in the same way Saul did in Old Testament Israel. Secondly, we are to take the good news of Christ to the world. With so many people around us attempting to fill their spiritual void with things that will only bring pain, not sharing Christ would be un-Christlike.
John 14:6 says "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I am saying this to you all in true Christion love. It is my belief that you will not get to heaven by researching all the different religions and spiritual teachings and deciding for yourself what to believe or believing something simply because it makes you feel better. You must rely on the teachings of the Lord's Word. Otherwise, you may be lead down a destructive path away from God and His promise of eternal life through Jesus. And only Jesus.
In my opinion, what some believe to be "reincarnation" is actually God walking us through to safety. Sometimes people, myself included, don't give credit where credit is due. I have not had an experience, as of yet, where a loved one, that has passed, spoke to me, so I can't say for sure what I would think, but I would hope I would stand firm on my beliefs that it all came from God.
I personally believe whatever gets us through from day to day is what is important.I do believe in Heaven.IMO,we are all living in Hell.This is where all the bad is going on gangs/rape/bombings/war/people hurting one another.It really can't get any worse than this.IMO, when we die we will go somewhere better.IMO,You don't have to go to church for God to listen to us.I may not agree with other people's beliefs and I would NEVER push mine on anybody else but what it boils down to, is people believing in something/anything to get them through tough times and being the best person they can be.Looking at you're life in the end hoping for no regrets and if you were the best person you could have been.JMHO
So, I am just asking, then were all of the people before the Bible was written damned? I do not believe there is one and only one way. If you study other religions there is a connected theme. Have you ever read "The Power of Myth"? Its quite interesting.
I lean towards Buddhism myself. But reincarnation is not usually considered the whole person coming through again.
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=171
Psychic/new age folks usually believe in God. Believing in reincarnation is not an alternative for believing in God.
Well, I've never realy understood why people say that if you don't believe in their beliefs, you are damned to Hell. I don't believe in Hell, I don't think there is a pit of fire awaiting those who don't follow Christianity. Of course, I may be wrong... but I may be right. Not a single person on this planet can tell you for sure.
I agree with Crystal, and I have to ask Cocoabutter, as a logical person, how can God be so narrow and simple minded to place such "rules" on what you have to do in order to be "saved" when you die? And would you put say a cold blooded murderer in the same category as a kind, honest, caring, do-for-others type of person who just so happens to be Jewish and doesn't believe that Christ is the savior? Because basically, that is what you are doing by taking some words in the Bible (which, we know has many versions and many translations, and was written by HUMANS) so literally. I just cannot comprehend that a loving all powerful God who created all of us and therefore all religions and designed us (some more than others) to seek out and learn, would place rules and conditions on His "children", which leave out a huge portion of good, caring and kind people. I too believe that Hell is a man-made belief, and a scare-tactic for religeous people to get followers. As far as reincarnation, I too just finished one of Sylvia Browne's books and it was very interesting, and it really made me think, and I trul hope that her take on life after death is true, but like Crystal said, noone truly knows what will happen. I tend to be the type who needs proof, I am very analytical, but I would like to believe there is someplace much better on the Other Side.
I have been to someone like Sylvia Brown, and she was unbelievable! She gave me messages that she could not possibly have known or found out. I also see signs from those I love and have lost all the time. I am a true believer. I am not a big reader, but love reading spiritual books. I have lost 2 children, a nephew, lots of relatives and most recently my wonderful father. I take such comfort in knowing they are all still with me.
I have met Christians who spend more time talking about Satan than they do Jesus. I have my doubts, too, about a fiery hell. Yes, there was the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man died and went to hell, and saw Lazarus in "Abraham's bosom". He begged for water to quench the burning of his lips. However, are we to take from that that the rich man was doomed to spend ETERNITY in hell? And could the burning be alegorical? His own self-imposed punishment for not caring for his fellow humans when alive? (This theme is repeated many times in literature. A good example is "A Christmas Carol"). I tend to like the Scripture that says "NOTHING can separate us from the love of Christ Jesus". Perhaps we judge ourselves on the Other Side, and for a time decide that we need chastisement, or "correction" if you will. However, God is a God of 'second chances". Abraham was stopped from killing Issac at the last minute. Once Peter kept his eyes on Jesus, and not on his own feet, he stopped sinking, and was able to walk on water. The prostitute was saved from stoning and forgiven.
God is a God of love. We are His creation. Ultimately, He will draw us to Himself, but *when* is our decision.
I also agree that there are many people who live very Godly lives who are not Christian. And, will God give you just a few years to make such a critical decision about where you spend eternity? Yes, I agree that most of the world's religions all have the same theme. We are trying to have a relationship with our Creator. And almost every religion believes in an afterlife. Even primitive peoples see Him in creation, and talk to their departed loved ones, hence believing in an afterlife. I believe that Jesus reconciled us to God, which is nessecary because, having free will, we DO choose to stray from our true way.
Christianity is really a minority religion in the world, so will God consign the majority of His creation to hell?
The concept of a devil is manyfold. Yes, we reside in a universe of opposites. Creation, destruction; darkness, light; good and evil. However, evil is ego. Thinking that we are on the same level with God. Pride. It's what got Lucifer, the most beautiful angel, thrown out of Heaven, with a third of the host of Heaven who chose to follow him instead of God. But, again, angels are created beings who also have free will.
There has been an awful lot of evil done in the name of religion. The Spanish Inquisition, Joan of Arc, and anyone who chose to use logic to go against what had always been believed, who were tortured and killed. If memory serves me, I believe that the Roman Catholic church had Gallileo's eyes gouged out for doing experiments with the laws of gravity. Guilt and fear are great devices of control.
In my opinion, for what it is worth, I believe that hell is separation from God, and that we impose it upon ourselves until we feel that we are worthy to enter His presence. Following that line of thought, this life on earth, could truly be a form of hell.
Lisa - John 14:6 is absolutely true. "...NO ONE comes to the Father but by me". Jesus paid the ultimate price to reconcile us to God. However, did He only die to save Christians? Jesus himself wasn't a Christian. He was Jewish.
Amen, Marcia.
"how can God be so narrow and simple minded to place such "rules" on what you have to do in order to be "saved" when you die?"
The only "rule" he has to be saved is that you accept Jesus Christ as your savior. Christian still sin everyday, everyone does, God knows that and is loving and forgiving if you ask for forgiveness and truely try to change your life.
"And, will God give you just a few years to make such a critical decision about where you spend eternity?"
You can accept Jesus as your Savior the second before you die and you will be saved to spend eternity with him.
These are my understandings of it all, maybe someone who knows the Bible better than I do can answer better.
Joelle,
That is, from my teachings in both Methodist and Baptist churches, the Baptist belief. You must ask Christ into your heart as your saviour to be "saved". Methodists (at least the church I grew up in) don't believe that. Of course, having been married to 2 Catholics, and most of my closest friends being Catholic, my understanding is they believe you cannot get into Heaven without going through your communion. Then again, most of the Catholics I know stopped going to church shortly after their communion. A friend of mine went to Catholic grammar school, had his Holy Communion, went to Georgetown, his dog tags say Catholic, but we were talking about the last time he went to confession. His response?
Well, I was probably 13, and if I went now it would be "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned. Do you have a while? You might want to order a pizza, this could take all day. Let's just start alphabetically..."
Now, I know we're making light of a serious thing, but he believes in God, and knows he's committed sins in the eyes of his Lord, he just doesn't practice what he was raised on. Hol brought up only having a short amount of time to decide where you spend eternity. That's kind of where my friend is, he's my age, and he says he hopes God is more understanding than the Catholic church makes him out to be. Hopefully, by the time he figures life out, God will forgive his transgressions in the process. My DH was raised Catholic, school, Communion, etc, and is a Evolutionist now. He hasn't been to confession since he was a teen either. They both still carry that "Catholic guilt", but have very different beliefs as adults.
I have only been Baptist for about 4 yrs now, I was born and raised an Episcopalian (sp??). Only when I joined the Baptist church is when I heard the word "Saved". So I guess you are right it is a Baptist thing. It works for me, and I just want everyone to find what works for them.
Oh boy...so many of you have raised so many thoughts/questions that I have myself! Christianity is such a complicated thing to me, and that's coming from someone who was for years "saved" and very active in my church. My personal teachings are that you go to heaven by asking God into your heart (as mentioned above), but where it's gets murky for me (now) is what happens next.
The way I live now ( we do not attend church, I can't say that I regularly pray or read the Word either) and the way I lived then are completely different with regard to my spiritual life. I still believe the same things that I did, and generally believe most everything in the Bible I guess.
It seems that there are two ways of living "saved" (of which I am in the latter): get saved, dedicate yourself to church, the teachings, the Bible OR get saved, and go on with life as usual knowing what you believe in your heart, trying to live a good life loving others.
Are both of these kinds of people going to heaven just because they are "saved"? Is any of this making sense? I mean, I have a best friend who is the epitome of what I would call a practicing Christian woman. She is saved of course. However, am *I* not saved? Does your "saving" last, or do you have to do things to maintain that "saving"?
That is a pretty elementary way of putting it, but those are really my questions. ??????
FYI, definitely believe in people like Sylvia Brown, although I haven't had any personal experiences myself.
I think religion, Christianity, spirituality is VERY conflicting and SOOOOOOO varied in its interpretations.
In my heart, I TRULY believe that there are many different religions (with often the same baseline teachings) that are here because we ARE all different and come from so many different backgrounds. *I* believe that God tries to reach us in many different ways. It's hard for me to believe that ONE way is the only way. Very hard.
Jesus himself wasn't a Christian. He was Jewish.
This is an incorrect statement. Jesus was the first Christian He is of Jewish heritage. Big difference. He was raised in a Jewish religion home, but as he reached "adulthood" he started the Christian church. Which is an extention of the Jewish religion. The big difference besides Christ being, not the letter of the law being followed, but the spirit of the law.
Being saved...this is just a term. It is pretty much just used by the Baptist church. But in general it is meaning "being saved from the depths of hell". How do you get saved? Simply believe in Christ and his teachings. Each Christian church has different ways to show that. Catholics have first communion, others have dedication ceremonies, some have Baptisms. However in true Christian spirt...it is the spirit of the law, it means you get that Jesus is God in human form and you are going to try to live life following God's plan, not your own.
So once saved always saved? Depends who you ask. Ultimately my belief is, if you really believe in Christ and you really try, then yes. I think there are plenty of people who go through the motions, but don't really get it. But Christians are sinners, by definition. We "all fall short of the Glory of Heaven". None of us are perfect. All sins are equal to God, we would like to think well the big 10 has more clout, but that is not what the Bible says. So really no matter what type of life you have lived, if you have tried to live God's way and you really do believe in Christ then yes, I think you go to heaven.
What about the majority of non Christians...hmm good question. I don't know. I believe that part of not going to heaven is "denying Christ". So if people have heard the word, not just happened to be exposed, but really listened and got it, and then choose not to follow, well then I don't think they are going to heaven. What happens to those people, I have no idea. And it really isn't my place to decide, it is between them and God really.
I do think God tries to reach us in many different ways. But I do think Christ is the main link.
As for reincarnation. It isn't for me. I believe in Angels, spirit and demons. But I don't think we come back and do it again. I think sometimes our minds know more than we can access, but I believe we die and then move on. I have certainly felt the presence of my mother, but I don't really believe it is her spirit as much as it is my angel who reminds me of her.
Kaye- I think you have very good explanations for my questions/confusion. During my lifetime, from childhood on, I've been a member of a Quaker church, Independent, and Pentecostal. They all used the term "saved". My sister is Methodist and also "saved". I thought it was a general term except for Catholics and Episcopalians, but what do I know??
Had to get online for something else and I thought I would check in really quick, because I have been SOOOOoooo busy the past couple of days, and now I see that there is so much more to read. Tonight I am sending ds off to stay at grandma and grandpa's house for a whole week (I hope) so I will get more time later.
Just thought I'd pop in and let you know I am not avoiding responding and I haven't forgotten about it. But I have to give lots more careful thought to my next post. TTFN!
In my opinion, the danger of believing in such a limited doctrine is that it lends itself to bigotry, intolerance, and has, in the past led to persecution. Case in point on the latter, the Salem witch trials. The people who settled the original colonies left England to pursue religious toleration. However, when they arrived here, the persecution continued. The witch hysteria began when two adolescent girls started having "fits" after they had visited with an old woman of the settlement. Middle aged to elderly women were very probably the most vilified, isolated and lonely of the general population. Most likely, they were widowed, and as such lived a life of poverty. They might have tried to eek out a living dispensing herbal cures, caring for the sick and delivering infants. They probably sought companionship from a cat or other animal. Because their "wisdom" might have been unconventional it was viewed with suspicion and fear. Again, giving the devil far more credit than he/it deserves. After the travesty of rigged trials and false testimony, these innocent women were tortured and put to death. Afterward, it was proven that the "fits" demonstrated by the girls were part of a teenaged prank, most likely for attention. Religion was used as justification for the dispatching of these unfortunate women. Also, even though it is fiction, "The Scarlet Letter" by Nathaniel Hawthorne also illustrates the mode of thinking in that era. An unmarried pregnant girl is ostracized, judged and humiliated by RELIGIOUS people, instead of embraced and loved.
Today, religion can be used as a justification for ostracizing people who don't fit in with what is considered "acceptable" because of their sexual preference. One church group, until recently banned, thought it was Christian to picket and disrupt the funerals of fallen soldiers from the Iraq war. Their justification is that these heroes, who paid the ultimate price, are defending a country that condones homosexuality, and therefore "deserved" to die. WHAT WOULD JESUS SAY?? I'm betting that He wouldn't agree with them.
Religion isn't of God if it EXCLUDES any of His people. It should bring us together in love, not cause division and pain.
When my oldest DS passed away, a woman who is the "pillar" of her church and its organist, stood in front of my son's flag-draped casket, pointed toward his body, and said to me "Was he SAVED?" It just so happened, he was, but what a thing to say to a grieving mother!! However, this is the same woman, who, in adult Sunday School made the statement, and I am quoting, "Everyone KNOWS that a Black person's brain isn't as big as a White person's brain". It was the gospel according to Alice.
The bigotry and atrocities that took place in our American South before the civil rights movement couldn't have endured for so long without the sanction of many, many Christian churches.
My intention of starting this discussion was not to inflame emotions, or pit people against each other. I said at the outset that I honour and respect all beliefs. I just know what I have experienced in my own living, and wanted to see how others felt. I only know of one Scripture that says, "It is destined of all men to die once, then the judgement", but just what does that really mean? Near death experiences are well documented. I just think that there are MANY ways to look at things, and as Shakespeare said, "There are stranger things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in our philosphy".
Kaye, I don't agree with you about Jesus. If you had asked him if he were a christian i think his response would have been something like, "A what??" As for him starting the christian church, he was the catalyst but if you what a man to thank for the christian church then I think Paul is that man.
Reds...Don't have a heart attack but I agree with you again . I'm a practising christian but I don't practice christianity beleiving it's the only way. I think God belongs to all people and different people and cultures have different stories and descriptions of the relationship they have with him/her/the divine. The christian and hebrew story is one of many. Becoming overly concerned with heaven and hell (a doctrine that's easily debatable and certainly not the only doctrine supported by scripture)is a distraction to what we're called, all of us whether christian or buddhist or atheist, to do. And that's to serve and be kind to each.
Ditto Unschoolmom. With the diversity in our world, how realistic is it that we all agree with one type of religion, one manner of worship, one way to heaven? I feel we were given minds to use them, and I would be suspicious of any religion that didn't encourage thinking "outside of the box". Are any of us going to have all the answers? I really don't think so. But in our hearts we know what we need to do. And Dawn said it well.
Dawn and Nicki - BRAVO!! I couldn't have said it better. We used to have a poster in our fellowship hall at church many years ago. It had a picture of Jesus, and it said, "Jesus died to take away your sins, not your mind". I thought it was very profound.
We condemn the Islamics today for declaring "jehads" (holy wars) against anyone who doesn't believe as they do (infidels). They believe that theirs is the only way, and we find that unacceptable. Yet, aren't we doing the same thing when we set ourselves up to decide who is going to Heaven?
Yes, technically we are doing that Hol, just not violently. There *is* a big difference there.
Love the poster that was in your church! I agree and think the term "profound" really sums up the meaning of that poster.
LOTS of questions and issues raised here, and I'd really like to make a stab at addressing them all. First, let me explain where I'm coming from with my responses. I am a Christian. I am not a Baptist, a Methodist, an Episcopalian, a Catholic, etc., I am just plain and simply a Christian. What is a Christian? One who is a follower of Christ, one who belongs to Christ. We were ALL created by God in His likeness; we have all sinned and broken the fellowship He desired for us to share with Him; He paid for that sin in sending Jesus (the "Christ" (Greek) or "Messiah" (Hebrew)) to become the one and only man who never sinned and therefore was able to pay for OURS by his death and separation from God, and yet rose from the dead so He still lives and we can experience a personal and intimate relationship with Him again the way He created us to have; HOWEVER, He doesn't force us to have a relationship with Him -- he lets us choose. Some have chosen to accept that He paid for our sins and have become adopted as God's own children, and upon death, will go to live with God for eternity. Others reject His gift and choose NOT to be adopted as God's children and God honors their decision and upon their deaths, they will be separated from God from eternity.
Now, my response to the questions and issues that have been raised, and I'd like to say in advance that I write none of this to be argumentative or to put anyone else down or to condemn anyone else. I write it because while each of you are free to make your own decision about what you believe, someone posted at the bottom of this thread that "Jesus died to take away your sins, not your mind", so I want to at least present the information so you can give your minds something to think about before you make your decision.
First:
I have come to believe in reincarnation. It just makes sense to me. I believe that we were created when God created the Heavens and the earth. I believe that we were with Him in Genesis, at the beginning.... Just as Jesus came to Earth in a physical body...we do, too, but it is OUR choice, with God, when and how many times....
I believe that, after we go back to God after each incarnation, that we can choose to say 'that's enough'. I want to stay "home" now (Heaven).
I understand and respect that this makes sense to you... but it truly doesn't make sense to me at all. If you and I have been existing in different lives since God created the world, then by the literal seven-day Creationist viewpoint, we have been in existence for 6,000 years. (If you want to say this happened billions of years ago, you can substitute that as how long ago the earth was created doesn't relate to what I'm about to say.) This would mean that my soul has had dozens of opportunities, maybe a hundred chances, to go to heaven, and yet, that many times, I've said no, I'd rather return to earth? Why would ANYONE who reaches heaven's gates and sees a perfect world with no pain, no sorrow, no destruction, nothing bad in it at all, and filled with everything good, choose even ONCE to return to earth? That makes no sense at all to me.
It doesn't make sense to me that we only get one chance. What about the child who dies, or the physically or mentally challenged? Is it possible , that when people experience gender identity issues, that MAYBE they were the opposite sex in another life, and that their soul is remembering that?
The child who dies was spared many long years of sorrow on this earth and gets to walk straight into eternity in heaven. It's sad for those still on earth who loved the child, but it's not sad for the child at all. The physically and mentally challenged will suffer on earth (as everyone does, although each person has their own particular sufferings and challenges), but will be whole and perfect in heaven (assuming they chose not to reject God during their life on earth) and will get to live out an eternity of no more suffering.
I don't understand how reincarnation could possibly work. I am who I am for a reason. When I die, I will still be me. My soul is who I am. How could I be somebody else? By what you're saying above, your soul doesn't remember its past lives, although it may have a glimpse of something here and there from a past life. So what good does it do this soul to have more chances when it doesn't remember any of its other chances anyway? What if a murderer arrives at the gates and realizes his crimes, and says let me go back, and goes to back in another life -- what good does the second chance do him when he doesn't remember what he learned the first time around? And then, out of all the people he's been, WHO is he when he gets to heaven? What if the Apostle Paul and Adolf Hitler share the same soul??
Let's say when I die this time, I decide that's it and I want to go to heaven now. Who am I in heaven? I've been a hundred different people and had a hundred different lives -- maybe I was a good person in some of my lives and an evil person in others. Should God then reward me or punish me? If my soul chose to accept God in one life, is it then automatically born a "Christian" in its next life without knowing it? What if the next life doesn't want to be a Christian and wants to be wicked and evil?
This is why reincarnation makes absolutely no sense to me. The accounts we hear of people who have been brain dead for a few minutes and then were brought back to life gives us a little bit of an idea of who we are when we die. Who are they? They are still themselves. They still know their friends and family, they retain the essence of who they are, they still think like themselves and act like themselves -- the soul is the essence of who that person is. How can that soul then be placed in another body and be someone else who has no recollection of who they were before?
However, Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for ALL to enter Heaven. I just think that it takes many lifetimes for some to finally raise their consciousness to WANT to be with God for eternity.
Jesus' sacrifice did indeed make it possible for all to enter heaven. But I ask again, how can getting more and more lifetimes raise someone's consciousness to make them want to be with God, when they don't remember those other lifetimes to be able to learn from those experiences?
God is indeed the God of second chances, as was stated, but that is limited to our life on earth. If a mass murderer confesses on his deathbed, God forgives him! But once you've died, your time is up. Fortunately for us, God promises that our lives are extended to give us all the chances we need to accept Him -- He won't take us until we've truly decided, and as He KNOWS our hearts, He KNOWS when someone has made their final decision and even if they had a million more chances, they wouldn't change their mind.
So, I am just asking, then were all of the people before the Bible was written damned? I do not believe there is one and only one way. If you study other religions there is a connected theme.
Of course not. The writing of the Bible doesn't save us. Jesus' payment for our sins and our accepting that is what saves us. So I'll rewrite your question based on that premise -- were all of the people before Jesus came sent to hell? Again, no. Before Christ, those who sought a relationship with God and believed in His promises of a coming Messiah were "saved". When Jesus died on the cross, He paid for all sins, past, present, and future. When Jesus died, he paid for Abraham's sins, Moses' sins, my sins, your sins, and the sins of people not yet born. The issue is whether you WANT(ED) Him to.
As far as being one and only one way, truth is exclusive by its very nature. If it doesn't exclude something, it can't be truth. For example, if you say "2 + 2 is 4", that is true. If someone else says, "No, 2 + 2 is 5", then they are wrong. If they aren't wrong, then your statement isn't true. So by saying that "2+2=4" is a true statement, you exclude 2+2 from equalling anything else and make any number other than 4 the WRONG answer. Just the same, if Jesus is the way to heaven, for this to be true, it must necessarily exclude things outside of Jesus from being the way to heaven, or else it isn't true. Other religions are exclusive, as well -- and say what you will about Christianity being an exclusive religion, I know of NO predominantly Christian country that kills or physically tortures anyone who is not a Christian, while there are certainly plenty of countries out there that ascribe to other religions that kill or physically torture people for being Christians (or any other religion outside of their own). Christianity tells people Jesus is the only way because He is; it doesn't force people to believe it on threat of death or torture, however. (True Christianity doesn't anyway... misguided people are discussed further on down.)
The next two statements I will address together:
Well, I've never realy understood why people say that if you don't believe in their beliefs, you are damned to Hell. I don't believe in Hell...
...as a logical person, how can God be so narrow and simple minded to place such "rules" on what you have to do in order to be "saved" when you die?
Okay -- Hell is separation from God. God gives us a simple choice -- He asks, "Do you want to be with me, or don't you?" I want to be with Him. But He cannot tolerate sin. If He did, He would not be good or fair, He would be evil. If we had a judge in our court system who said, "Well, I know this man murdered your child, but I'm going to let him off because he deserves another chance..." or "Yes, I know this man raped ten teenage girls at the mall, but jail is such a bad place, I couldn't bear to make him suffer by sending him there, so let's just skip the sentencing part of this and let him go.".... WHAT would you do with that judge? We'd be incensed, and we'd throw him out! He would be EVIL and unjust to let criminals get away with their crimes and not be punished for them. The same with God -- how would you feel if you went to heaven and saw some of the most evil men of all history walking around enjoying heaven with no punishment for their crimes? Surely you would agree this would not be fair!
Well... what IS fair then? How much sin do you have to do for God to decide you're bad enough for hell? How could you possibly make ANY fair "line" except the line that God has drawn, which is that sin is sin, and deserves punishment. He's not being cruel or evil, He's simply being FAIR. But God goes beyond fair, and says, "Okay, you've sinned.... so you can't be with me because I can't tolerate sin... BUT, I'll send my Son to be punished and tortured on YOUR behalf so that you CAN be with me for eternity if you WANT to be -- but I'm not going to FORCE anyone to be with me if they don't want to be." That is fair -- the sins are punished. But that is also love -- He gave us a way to be with Him anyway (at great cost to Himself!). And it is ultimate love in that He lets US choose to be with Him or not instead of forcing us.
What is hell? Someone in this thread said that with all the sin on earth, earth is like hell. Well, think about that -- earth is indeed full of sin, and much of our suffering on earth is due to sin, maybe our sin or maybe we suffer the results of someone else's sin. But earth still has some good in it too. All those "good" people who have accepted Christ and are trying to live for Him go to heaven. What's left? Only those who have rejected God and choose to continue in their sin -- now THAT is hell. No God, no godly people, and living with a bunch of wicked people... No, thanks, not where I want to be.
And would you put say a cold blooded murderer in the same category as a kind, honest, caring, do-for-others type of person who just so happens to be Jewish and doesn't believe that Christ is the savior?
The Bible does address this, actually, in that while sin is sin and separates us from God, our eternity is spent paying for our sins, whatever those be. So in your example, the Jewish person has to live with his relatively minor sins and their consequences, and the murderer has to live with his sins and their consequences, which are obviously going to be more severe. It does seem that there are varying levels of punishment, based on Jesus' comments in Matthew 11:20-24 ("it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon/Sodom on the day of judgment than for you...")
And being Jewish doesn't exclude you from God... in fact, the first Christians were ALL Jewish people, Peter, James, John, Paul, all the leaders of the early church -- and before Jesus came, the nation of Israel was God's Chosen People and nearly all of them went to heaven, while only a scattered few among other nations who chose to believe in God did. So it's not as if the man just happened to be born Jewish so he is consigned to hell -- he gets a choice just like the rest of us, and there are LOTS of Jewish Christians out there today who don't have to give up any part of their Jewish culture or heritage to be "saved". Look up "Messianic Judaism" online and you'll find tons of them.
Because basically, that is what you are doing by taking some words in the Bible (which, we know has many versions and many translations, and was written by HUMANS) so literally. I just cannot comprehend that a loving all powerful God who created all of us and therefore all religions and designed us (some more than others) to seek out and learn, would place rules and conditions on His "children", which leave out a huge portion of good, caring and kind people.
The Bible is truth, and has stood up in every way to tests of reliability and accuracy. The more discoveries that are made by science, history, archaeology, etc., the more the Bible proves its accuracy. The Bible was authored by God, through humans who had an intimate relationship with Him, and is therefore not subject to human error.
While God did create all of us, He did not create all "religions". Man created many religions which reject God. God did indeed design us to seek Him, and He promises that those who seek Him will find Him. He didn't place rules and conditions which leave out good caring kind people. He created each of us for a relationship with Him, and we selfishly said no, we don't want you, and He said okay then, if you don't want Me, I won't force you to stay with me, you can do what you want to do. Those of us who come back and say, "I'm sorry, I was wrong, and I DO want you", He gladly accepts back into the fold, and those who until their dying day say, "No, I don't want you," He says, "Okay -- you don't want me, then I won't make you spend eternity with Me." The Bible is clear that God doesn't WANT anyone to go to hell. "He is not willing that ANY should perish..." But He does allow us to make that choice. Heaven and spending an eternity with God would be like a hell for the person who rejects and hates Him, so really they get "hell" no matter what God does... they've created hell for themselves.
I tend to like the Scripture that says "NOTHING can separate us from the love of Christ Jesus".
Scripture MUST be interpreted in context. You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say by picking out a verse or a part of a verse and not reading it in context. The context of the above statement which is a paraphrased summary of Romans 8:35-39 is that Paul is writing this to the CHRISTIANS in Rome. And no, once we have accepted Christ's gift, nothing and nobody can ever separate us from Him or from His love. Paul did not write this to unbelievers, and it cannot be interpreted as a message intended for all people. That would be like if you wrote a letter to your husband promising him you would love him no matter what and would never leave him, and I came to you with that letter and said, "You wrote right here, 'I will always love you no matter what you do and will never leave you' and I expect you to keep that promise and stay by my side forever." That would be ridiculous, because you didn't make that promise to ME, you made it to your husband, and he is the only one who can claim that promise. And believers are the only ones who can claim the above statement made by Paul, because it was believers he wrote it to.
Christianity is really a minority religion in the world, so will God consign the majority of His creation to hell?
God will consign nobody to anything, each person makes their own choice and consigns themselves to where they will spend eternity. Nobody has yet brought this up, but what about the person who never hears of Christianity? God knows our hearts, and He has made it clear that NOBODY will walk away on Judgment Day saying, "That's not fair" because it WILL be fair and we'll know it is. He says everybody gets to choose, so nobody is going to be condemned because they didn't get a choice. Whether He makes sure that the news gets to each person that is truly seeking Him, or whether He judges based on what the person would have done had they been exposed to it (since He is all-knowing), I don't know, but I do know that whatever He does will be what is right and fair.
Here are three different comments that have a common thread that I will address together:
There has been an awful lot of evil done in the name of religion. The Spanish Inquisition, Joan of Arc, and anyone who chose to use logic to go against what had always been believed, who were tortured and killed.
In my opinion, the danger of believing in such a limited doctrine is that it lends itself to bigotry, intolerance, and has, in the past led to persecution. Case in point on the latter, the Salem witch trials.
The bigotry and atrocities that took place in our American South before the civil rights movement couldn't have endured for so long without the sanction of many, many Christian churches.
All of this is true. Christianity HAS been responsible for a lot of atrocities over time. However, these evils were not committed by Christians who were following God's will, because these actions contradict what the Bible teaches and what Jesus taught. At the same time, other Christians spoke out against these atrocities. In the case of the Inquisition, there were likely many true Christians who were actually the ones being tortured or killed by others who claimed to be Christians but truly weren't, or at the least, were very misguided Christians. It was a Christian named Increase Mather who spoke out forcefully against the Salem Witch Trials which ultimately ended the hysteria. ANY wicked acts such as the ones mentioned above that were perpetuated in the name of Christianity obviously tarnish the name of Christ, and this is the ultimate atrocity. But none of those evil deeds were from God, He did not command Christians to carry out these acts, they were done by people who either weren't really true Christians to begin with, or Christians who somehow stopped listening to God and started following their own sinful heart. I don't defend any of these actions as being right, and neither would God.
Lisa - John 14:6 is absolutely true. "...NO ONE comes to the Father but by me". Jesus paid the ultimate price to reconcile us to God. However, did He only die to save Christians? Jesus himself wasn't a Christian. He was Jewish.
Well, He died to save everybody.... "Christian" is just a term given to those who chose to be reconciled. Jesus couldn't be a "Christian" technically because a Christian is a term given to those who FOLLOW Jesus. That would be like saying Luther wasn't a Lutheran or Wesley wasn't a Wesleyan -- technically, they aren't, but they are the leaders of the groups, just as Christ is the leader of Christians and we are his followers.
Are both of these kinds of people going to heaven just because they are "saved"? Is any of this making sense? I mean, I have a best friend who is the epitome of what I would call a practicing Christian woman. She is saved of course. However, am *I* not saved? Does your "saving" last, or do you have to do things to maintain that "saving"?
Whether or not someone is saved is not up to me to say, it's between God and each individual person. I don't know your heart, but He does. Ultimately, if you accept Him, you spend eternity with Him; if you reject Him, you spend eternity separated from Him. God makes it clear that accepting Him means believing you are a sinner, believing Jesus died to pay for that sin, and confessing that sin and asking for forgiveness. I think a lot of people want to stop with "believing" and say "I believe there's a God and a Jesus so I'm saved", but the Bible says that even the demons believe... and shudder. (James 2:19) It is confession that is important -- "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9). Then since we are cleansed, we are made holy and can enjoy fellowship with our holy God, with no sin standing between us anymore.
Yet, aren't we doing the same thing when we set ourselves up to decide who is going to Heaven?
I sort of already addressed this -- we don't decide who is going to heaven. I have no idea which of you are going to heaven and which aren't. But God knows, and ultimately YOU know too, because you know whether you have accepted God and the way that He has provided for us, or whether you reject Him and just want to live your life your own way. I don't decide who is going to heaven, and God doesn't even decide who's going to heaven because He would prefer for us ALL to go -- we each decide for ourselves if we are going or if we aren't.
I don't say any of this to be bigoted, narrowminded, or intolerant, I say it only because it's truth, and I want everyone to know the truth, and hope everyone will accept and believe the truth, because I don't want anyone else going to hell either! To call a Christian intolerant for sharing the message is the same as calling someone intolerant who stands by a roadside warning drivers that a bridge is out ahead and if they don't stop and turn around, they will drive over a cliff and be killed. That person isn't being bigoted, narrowminded, or intolerant, they're simply sharing the truth in the hopes of preventing other people from being killed. We're simply sharing the truth in the hopes of preventing other people from eternal separation from God.
Zoie, I can appreciate your knowledge in what YOU believe, but it's just simply that, your BELIEF, only God knows the truth.
Wow Zoie! I have nothing to say---how rare is that?--you said it all for me and much more eloquently than I could. So...ditto Zoie.
I was going to add something very similar to what Jodes added.
The Power of Myth is truly an interesting read.
And Pascal's Wager addresses that issue very well.
That is very interesting Pam. And I am being sincere.
I do believe in God. Its just that my interpretation is more of a direct connection. I do not feel I need to go to church or believe in any one particular book or record etc. to make that connection.
However, I do take my children to church to give them a base. But we also talk about other religions and when they are old enough they can choose for themselves and I will respect their decision.
Pascal's wager never impressed me much. First because it depends on the shaky premise of a hell and the threat of it. Second because it's a, "What have you got to lose," not based on the morals, ideas and stories of christianity. It's not a why, it's a why not.
Kim, I keep meaning to read that! I believe the bible contains a lot of myths but a lot of people seem to translate 'myth' into 'lies' and accuse me of not really believing. I think that book would help my arguments.
Kim, I like the way you describe your interpretation as a "direct connection". I feel very much the same. Organized religion has actually served to confuse me, and has not had a positive effect on my relationship with Him. Yet, this is my experience only, and I have complete respect for those who follow a different path.
Hol, I want to thank you for starting this thread. I have always had reincarnation in the back of my mind, but this has been most interesting.
Addressing reincarnation , I believe all things are possible, if you believe in God, it sorta goes with the territory, right? I'm not sure that I "believe" in reincarnation, but I do believe and have had experiences with spirits guiding me, I do believe that it is God, using people in my past or in my realm of knowledge so I'll actually listen. I am also a firm believer that we each house God in our souls, the answers lie within if we shut up long enough and be still enough to hear. Like Kim said it's a very direct relationship, and organized religion gets in the way of spirituality often times, starts debates, wars and hate.
Two quotes I love
"Talk to God about People, not to people about God"
"Life is a lesson to learn, Not problem to solve"
We are all here to learn a lesson, who knows maybe if we don't learn it we don't learn it we are sent back without a choice? I don't know. I'm just living the most honest, decent life I can, sinning along with everyone, making mistakes, making differences, loving, fighting etc
For those of you who are looking into reincarnation or answers, you can find reputable people to do past life regressions. I say search and be open and honest, don't hurt yourself or others and keep your quest going, lessons in your life are not lessons in anothers, we all can't possibly be living in the same box.
Jodes, you said only God knows the truth, and that the things I said are only what I believe.
But the things I said are all straight from the Bible... God wrote us an entire book so that if we WANT to know the truth that only He knows, we can, if we will just read it.
What I wrote IS what I believe -- but it's more than that, it's what God Himself has told us, and therefore, it is the truth.
For Nicki and Kim, true Christianity is not about "organized religion" or going to any certain church -- it's about a personal relationship with God, whether or not you go anywhere to church, whether or not you have anything to do with "organized religion". There are people in heaven who have never set foot inside a church, and there are people in heaven who have spent so much time in church that they practically lived there. Salvation is not about church attendance, it's about your relationship with God.
Pam, I'm glad that you joined us. I wondered if you would. After we lost our DS, my DH and I went in separate directions regarding what we believed. I had a desire to know God better, which opened my mind to the beliefs that I hold today. DH, for a while, was very ANGRY with God, and would challenge me when I would talk about God, Heaven, afterlife, seeing our loved ones again. DH kept saying, "But what if you're wrong? What if, when you die, there is nothing but non-existence?" I used Pascal's Wager on him. I told him, that if I die and cease to exist, then I won't know it anyway. But, if eternity turns out to be as wonderful as I believe it is, then I won't be dissappointed; AND it makes life here on earth easier. It's a win-win. Thank goodness, DH relinquished his anger and has returned to his relationship with God.
I LOVE discussions like this because it opens a dialogue. It is interesting to hear what others believe, and to hear their explanation for it. I don't believe that ANY of us have all the answers. It is just TOO big to claim to understand it all. Our human minds, by design, are limited, as far as what we are able to know while in a body. I really believe, however, that we will be in awe and wonder of what God has prepared for us. I love the old hymn, "We'll understand it, all bye and bye...".
Zoie, I believe that we DO remember past lives. That's why we go to places that we, technically, have never been to, and yet we know our way around. It is all so familiar. The same with people that we've "never" met before. We also remember being in the presence of Almighty God, and that's why we feel so out of place here on Earth. We KNOW that we are going "home".
I just don't understand why our beliefs have to be "all or nothing". I think we have something to learn from everyone.
About eight years ago, my sister gave me a book called "Prayer is Good Medicine" by Larry Dorsey, MD. He writes about scientific experiments to see if there is any difference in the recovery of critically ill patients who are prayed for, vs those who are not. It really changed the way I pray.
Normally, when someone is critically ill or injured, we always pray for their recovery. If it is someone dear to us, we pray that out of selfishness. We don't want to lose that person. However, Dr. Dorsey says that we should pray, according to the will of the person. He sites the example of a dear friend who was in a near- fatal car crash. He was badly injured, and not expected to live. His family, friends and church stormed Heaven with requests for his recovery. He did ultimately recover, but was not the same. Where, before, he had been a happy-go-lucky guy, he was now depressed, morose, and argumentative. Medical reasons for this had been ruled out. Then, suddenly, he developed pneumonia and died. Dr. Dorsey said that, one day, during prayer and meditation, his dear friend came to him in spirit, and he was his old smiling self again. He said, "I finally won out over all of you". He had never wanted to recover, but the power of prayer forced him to. He really wanted to go.
Sylvia Browne and others write that we all come into the world with "exit points". That when the going gets too hard for us to bear, that God provides a way out. In this case, it sounds like this man took his next exit point quickly, before anyone had time to pray for him again, and bind him here.
I try to remember that now, when I pray for others. I ask God to grant His will and theirs. When my Dad was terminally ill, I used to pray to keep him here, but he kept telling us that he wanted to go.
Hol, the feelings you are describing about familiarity, well you have aroused my interest. I have often wondered, where do these feelings originate? That feeling of being "at home" but not knowing why, and the need to return to that place time and again. Like a comfort zone. The same with certain people who come into our lives. I won't go into specifics, but now I want to read more on this subject.
Zoie, my post was not intended to state whether I was a Christian or not. With the many different definitions we could come up with on that one, I won't go there!:-)
This is an interesting discussion.
I am very impressed with all of you. This discussion has been going on for a week now, and everyone has been very respectful and nice (which has not always been the case in our discussions about religion and beliefs). It's clear that you have all put a lot of thought and care into what you say and how you say it. I am also impressed by the expression of what are clearly well-examined and thoughtful beliefs.
Having read all of the posts above, I don't think I have much to add. I will just say that - even in my rather personal and definitely not main-stream beliefs, and I do define myself as a Christian - I still don't see how one can be a Christian and believe in reincarnation. I have to agree with those who ask why a soul would choose to be reborn when the alternative is heaven (if there is a heaven). Unless reincarnation is not a choice, and being returned to live another life (or lives) on this earth is simply another form of what, in the Roman Catholic faith, is called purgatory. (I did a quick Google, because I thought purgatory was out now, but from a couple of very authorative looking sites I found, it appears it is still an item of faith for Roman Catholics.)
Zoie- you are AWESOME!
I have been thinking of and working on a careful response to this thread for about a week now. I have a partial response saved in a word document, but I don't need it now. You said exactly the same things I was going to say.
Ginny, I have ALWAYS felt that I have been here before. Then I really began studying everything I could on the subject of death, afterlife, suffering, loss, grief, etc. It didn't make sense to me that suffering could exist the way that it does because a loving God "imposed" it on us. It was just a real contradiction to me. Then, through reading, I came to believe that God gives us free will to make decisions for ourselves (Zoie and I agree on that point). The soul is a sacred and marvellous creation of the Almighty (Scripture calls it incorruption). It is the TRUE US, not this flawed body to which so much can and does go wrong, and which can be destroyed (corruption). Our bodies are vehicles to carry our souls around while on Earth, (and also house the Holy Spirit). Because life here is so hard, our soul learns at a much greater depth. (Did you learn as much from the easy teacher in school as the hard one?) Just as you might get a college degree in something, then decide you want to go to grad school, I think that that is what reincarnation is. We make a contract with God, if you will, each time we reincarnate. We CHOOSE the hard times, the tragedies, knowing that it is ultimately for our edification and glorification, or that of others. In a book called "Help of the Helpless", the family of a young man who was parapalegic from birth writes about the blessings that they received from having him in their life, even though he was totally dependent on them for EVERYTHING. They grew, learned and loved through his affliction. The homeless person on the street "chooses" that type of life to teach US compassion. A life sentence prisoner may have chosen that life before he came to Earth to teach others how to live in a moral way. A great book on this subject is "Sacred Contracts" by Caroline Myss. It sometimes takes a fatal accident to get the proper authorities to put up a traffic light, thus preventing the loss of other lives. THAT was that person's reason for coming to Earth in that time. Our souls have to progress. Each incarnation moves us closer to the glory of God. For some, it takes many, many, MANY incarnations. There are "low" spirits and "high" spirits. Low spirits have not had that many incarnations, and therefore are more carnal and interested in things of the flesh. A "high" spirit, or enlightened one, is an "old soul" who has been here many times. Little Mattie Stepanek comes to mind when I think of an old soul. That child, when he died at thirteen, already understood what it is all about. He had a purity and love about him that he could only have gotten from being here before. The same for Mother Theresa. She gave up a life of wealth to serve the poor. And, as was like her, when the world was focused on the death of Princess Diana, Mother Theresa quietly exited this world. She wanted no fuss made over her in life or death. I think that that is what prodigies are, too. A four year old child, for instance who can play a piano like Van Cliburn. He/she has done it before. Children who graduate from high school at 14 and go on to college. Even savants, who, by our standards, seem to be mentally deficient; yet they display talents that would seem far beyond their abilities.
I also believe that we all have karma to work through. One of the best ways to do that is to be able to die a natural death. If we are murdered, for instance, our karma is interrupted and we have to come back again. The consequence for taking one's OWN life is that they are incarnated again right away, with no time to rest in between. That is also why I don't believe in capital punishment. If you take a low spirit and execute them, you interrupt their karma, and you will be forced to deal with them again, as they are also reincarnated again immediately. I believe that is why you occassionally meet a CHILD who is just plain evil. If you locked that person away for the rest of their natural life, with no chance of parole, they have a lifetime to reflect on their deed. If they repent, there is a good chance that they won't come back.
I said before that I believe that a transgendered person who feels that they are really, i.e. a "man trapped in a woman's body", probably WAS a man in a previous incarnation, and their soul remembers that. They LONG for their previous body, and that's why they are so sad.
We DO remember what we have experienced in previous lives. We can KNOW things without being conscious of them. That's why people and places look familiar because they ARE.
There was a movie on TV recently. I had seen it before. Granted, it was on the "Lifetime" channel, but it was based on a true story. Jane Seymour plays an American woman who is happily married in the 20th century. She has recurring dreams about Ireland, and a certain house. She feels drawn to go to Ireland and find the house. She goes, and does research on the family who lived in the house before. She gets a family name, and goes to the cemetary and finds the graves of the parents. She keeps getting flashbacks of her childhood, but in another century. Then, after much time, she remembers her mother (from the 19th century) becoming very ill after the birth of her tenth child, and is taken away, where she dies. The father can't care for the children, so they are all parcelled out to different families. (Without being a spoiler), her job is to reunite the siblings that are still alive and up in years. There are SO MANY documented cases like that one.
Some say that we actually belong to a "soul circle" and that we reincarnate with the same people, as we are part of each other's growth. That's why, sometimes we meet our spouse and there is an INSTANT attraction.
I believe that we also KNOW how and when we will die. That's why we feel pulled to make a decision, even if it means the end of this physical life. Pat Tillman was a young man who had a promising NFL career. Fame and wealth were his for being able to play football well. He gave it all up to enlist in the Army and go to Iraq, where he was killed at the age of 26. I believe that he KNEW that that was his sacred contract.
Believe me, I grew up in a very traditional Christain home. I was VERY involved with my church; choir, youth group, worship. When I was 26, a lady came from "Welcome Wagon" to visit me and invite me to her church. It was there that I learned what relationship that Jesus' death and resurrection had with me. It was there that I asked His forgiveness for my sins, and asked Him to come into my heart and life. I was (and still am) humbly grateful, beyond measure, for the sacrifice that Jesus made for me to enable me to "stand humbly before God". I don't see how being a Christian is at odds with believing as I do. To me, it makes MORE sense. Zoie talks a lot about OUR decisions and our free will. I AGREE. The things that happen to us in this life, however awful they seem at the time, were chosen by US, with God, for our growth and edification, or to aid others in theirs. I TRULY believe that. God doesn"t MAKE bad things happen to us.
I have read SO-O-O much on this subject. I can suggest some good titles if anyone is interested.
Ginny, a good book to read about purgatory is "In Heaven as It Is on Earth" by M. Scott Peck, MD.
Nicki, I would be glad to talk to you more on this subject, IF you'd like. Post your email address, or I'll post mine.
SO-O-O SORRY about the double posting!! (Fat Finger Syndrome). You're probably thinking, "Like she doesn't go on and on ENOUGH already!"
Hol's double post was removed by a moderator.
I just want to share one more thing. When my oldest DS, Dan, was a toddler, to the time he started kindergarten, he had an "imaginary friend" named Michael. He always talked about "Michael", and how "Michael" was "sitting in my chair", etc. That was around 1978 to 81. He passed away in 1997.
We got our adopted DS's in 2002 because I saw one of them on a segment we have on our local news called "Tuesday's Child". They do a story every week on a particular child who is looking to be adopted. I had seen the TC many times. I always felt sad, but never had any idea to adopt. Yet, this one 13 y/o boy made me stop, watch, tape it when it came on again at 5:00PM, and show it to my DH. We BOTH felt an instant attraction to him. He seemed SO familiar. We went to an informational meeting, and the rest is history. We adopted him and his half-brother, then 14. The boy I saw on TV is named "MICHAEL". He was born in 1988.
Could Dan have been remembering Michael from Heaven, and knew something that we didn't? During the time frame of the "imaginary" friend, our Michael was still in Heaven.
Hol, I wouldn't for a moment say that reincarnation doesn't happen - or ghosts, or telepathy. I just don't know.
As for "It didn't make sense to me that suffering could exist the way that it does because a loving God "imposed" it on us. ", I don't believe God imposes suffering on us. That would be totally contradictory to a belief in a loving God, in my opinion. I think God has given us free will and a world in which to exercise that free will. When human beings cause others to suffer, that is because they aren't listening or don't want to follow the tenets of their belief. (And many Moslem scholars will tell you that the jihaddists are badly misinterpreting the Koran - especially the part that instructs that even in war, women and children are not to be harmed.)
As for the other kinds of suffering - disease, starvation from drought, harm from "acts of God" like hurricanes or floods - I believe all of those things are part of the world, and God has given us the ability to counter them if we wish to. I do not believe that any "act of God" happens so that the rest of us can exercise the compassion that God commands.
I guess what I believe is that God is out there somewhere watching us to see what we do with the God-given gifts we have, but not in any way controlling or interfering.
This has been an interesting discussion. Still don't really buy into the reincarnation. However, some of the this place looks familiar business for me is more like this.
This is my opinion...really based on no fact, but just my gut feelings
I feel like before we are born, we are with God, Scripture states He knew us before. I think maybe God sits with us, as you do with a dying a person and talks about lots of things. Maybe he shows us the path he wishes we would take, all the great things he has in store for us. But then when we get here, free will kicks in. I like to describe it as a map. We will go from place A (birth) to place b (home with God). However just like a road trip, you can choose your path, do you want the scenic route, the fastest, the safest, etc. That is our choice. God has desires and wishes for us, our little human brains just have no idea what those are often. So we travel the trip. But I think those moments of ohh I have been here, are those times that we travel the path that God has shown us.
So why do I think that...for me, that feeling happens often after I have made some really tough decisions. I too have had dreams that I can't really fully understand. I literally from the time I was in 5th or 6th grade often dreamed of my future. Odd dreams for a young girl. I planned in my awakeness to not marry, not have children, but to be a person who worked a lot. In my dreams though I was with (not in that way) moe like friends a guy. I never saw his face, I saw his person, his hair color, his soul. I called him Michael. Interesting. I am in texas, seems like everyone is named michael..LOL. Anyway, I quit having these dreams when I started dating, around age 16. Again I thought that was odd. But I kept a dream journal, so I had a lot of details, I didn't look at them often. Then I started dating hubby at 18. He has a good guy, but not the guy..LOL. So after a summer apart, I started really thinking about ending this. I spent my car ride back to school, planning how to break up, what to say. I prayed and prayed. He was in the parking lot when I pulled up (helping my roomie). And that instant I knew. And then I had that feeling...the words were in my head as I was saying them...very odd. That night I had my first michael dream in 4 years. The face was my hubby's. Is this a fluke, is this mind over matter? Who knows. Hubby's name isn't michael, but his middle name is..LOL. So in the sense that I think our souls can be connected, I think we only get one chance to do it. I might buy a little into the purgatory bit, but really know nothing about it.
"I have read SO-O-O much on this subject. I can suggest some good titles if anyone is interested."
HOL--- I would be interested in some titles.
"God wrote us an entire book so that if we WANT to know the truth that only He knows, we can, if we will just read it."
God didn't write the book, Christians believe he guided those who did. Therefore, why would it be so hard to believe that God is guiding people like Sylvia Browne in her writing and speaking?
Some think God directly wrote it through people, like Moses, and those are generally the conservative and fundamentalist christians.
Most moderates believe he divinely inspired those who wrote it.
Many moderates and most liberal christians, including me, believe it was written wholly by men (there's one letter attributted to Paul that may have been written by a woman)and reflects people's views and relationship with God.
Hol, you said:
The homeless person on the street "chooses" that type of life to teach US compassion. A life sentence prisoner may have chosen that life before he came to Earth to teach others how to live in a moral way. It sometimes takes a fatal accident to get the proper authorities to put up a traffic light, thus preventing the loss of other lives. THAT was that person's reason for coming to Earth in that time.
Okay, if you believe that, why would people CHOOSE to come back and commit murder? Or spend a decade physically or sexually abusing a child? Okay, so the one soul CHOOSES to die at an intersection so a traffic light is put up. Well, okay...I guess that doesn't blatantly harm anyone else except the grieving relatives, but the life prisoner you mentioned....he must have committed some horrible crime to GET that life sentence...so why is it good or okay to go thru those channels to teach morals??
First of all, let me say that I am not an expert on reincarnation. Everything that I have stated comes from research, reading, talking to psychics, mediums and other people called "sensitives" who are just that. Open to the world of spirit.
Kate, your question is certainly a valid one. From what I have been taught, our free will is intertwined with others. It is all part of the sacred contract that we make before we come here, prior to each incarnation. For instance, the life prisoner has already "agreed" with the victim to commit the crime. The victim has already agreed to BE the victim as part of THEIR karma. A murderer needs a victim; the victim needs a murderer. Both incidents are totally the decision of each.
An abused child agrees to that, and as such, needs an abuser. Maybe, through that victim, new legislation is passed to protect other children. "Megan's Law" for instance. And there is the karma issue to deal with. We may agree to be the victim in one incarnation because we were perpetrators in another.
One of the things that I found comforting to ME, is that there are no VICTIMS. Nothing happens to us that is not within our will and permission. From our perspective here, on Earth, it would seem that some things are just terrible injustices, but it is all part of a much grander plan. What about Judas? He betrayed Jesus. SOMEONE HAD to do it. Is he in Hell? He was very close to Jesus for the three years of His ministry. I'm sure that Judas knew who Jesus was, therefore he was saved. If it's true that, "once saved, always saved", then he is in Heaven. Jesus KNEW that he would betray Him. (Of course, Jesus WOULD know). He even said so. Scripture had to be fulfilled. So, was Judas an unwitting victim? I don't think so. What about Pontius Pilate? HIS wife had had a dream about Jesus, and didn't want her husband to have anything to do with condemning Jesus. Pontius Pilate feared insurrection from the masses. He, again, to fulfill Scripture, had to condemn Jesus to death. Would God just randomly pick someone to do such an AWFUL deed, then condemn them for eternity?
Many people who have had near death experiences tell us that they are given a chance by Jesus to come back to finish out this life, or to come "home". Liberty and free will are built into the soul. That's why the USA is such a wonderful place to live because we have both. It fulfills a yearning in us, as God's creatures.
How many times do you hear someone say, "If I could do it over....". Maybe you DO in the next life.
Presidents Abraham Lincoln and Ronald Reagan, for two, believed in reincarnation. They also believed in spirit communication and the paranormal. Lincoln had several foretelling incidents of his death. He used to hold seances in the White House.
General Patton believed in reincarnation. He often made reference to when he was a Roman general, and described battles that he was in. He believed that he had always been a warrior.
Myself, I remember one time when I was about four or five. My Mom had an old-fashioned purse that I think belonged to her Grandma, who was born in 1876. She kept it in her cedar chest. She had it out one day, and I asked her if it was hers when she was "old"? It just seemed very logical to me that people had had other lifetimes.
There have been incidents where children have been looking through family albums, spotted a picture of "Great Aunt Mary" who died long before THEY were born, and they recognize and name the person. Children are very straightforward, and don't get bogged down with "that can't be".
I have always had a fascination with the Civil War and 1800's clothing and accessories. I had a Reiki session a few years ago. The practioner had no prior knowledge of me. As the session progressed, she said that I had been alive in the 1800's, then I came back in the 1940's. (I was born in 1948) She asked if I was a nurse. I said no, though I had planned on going to nursing school before I got married. She said she saw nursing all around me. (My DD is a nurse). She asked me if I owned an antique tortoise-shell hair comb. I said no, even though I LOVE that sort of thing. She said that I had owned one that I treasured. She also told me that my husband was a soldier, which he was at the time (a thirty year career). She said that he had also been a soldier in the Civil War.
When he and I visited Gettysburg Battlefield in 1996, he actually wept. He was so moved. I think that he "died" there. I, too, could feel extreme heaviness and sadness there.
I don't, by a long shot, claim to have all the answers. I'm always suspicious of those who do. I just impart what I believe to be true. Like I've stated before, the whole life/death/eternity issue is too big to limit it to one philosophy. We can learn a lot from all.
Also, karma is more than just "what goes around, comes around". It can also be called the "Golden Rule" - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Again, from my reading, it would seem that whatever we have perpetrated on Earth, we'll be made to feel it multiplied many times over on the Other Side. For example, if we have caused a person (or animal) comfort, joy, caring, compassion or other expressions of love, we will feel the same emotions, magnified. However, the same holds true for negative emotions that we have caused; hurt, neglect, back-biting, fear, apathy. We will be made to feel the effects of those, magnified, as well. The Bible says "what is loosed on Earth will be loosed in Heaven". Every kind word or deed will be felt by us, and every hurtful one as well. God assists us in our self-evaluation, but mostly we judge and impose the penalties upon ourselves. That is why it makes perfect sense to me to try to return to Earth to "make things right". Movies have even been made about this. In all of the Twelve Step programs, such as Alcoholics Anonymous, the participant must apologize to everyone that they have hurt, as part of the recovery process.
For Nicki and others who have wanted some book titles, two good ones to start with are: "Talking to Heaven" by James Van Pragh, and "To the Other Side and Back" by Sylvia Browne. They are very informative.
Christian beliefs follow a linear time line, i.e. dispensationalism. Buddhism follows a wheel, where time is circular, and turns on itself, outwardly. I believe that somewhere in the middle is the truth.
Just look at nature. It is one of cycles. The seasons, the growth of plants, and even our own lives. Infancy is Spring, Summer is youth and reproduction, Fall is middle age and a time of retrospection, and winter is old age, infirmity and death. However...then it starts all over again. It will be this way until Jesus comes again and sets up a new Heaven and a new Earth.
These are just my opinions.
Oh wow! So much to reply to that it makes my head spin, but no time. Must clean and work on a research project. Hope to be back later this week.
I will chime in here. Personally I don't want to believe in reincarnation. I don't want to have a "do over" in life. I would like to believe we live, evolve spiritually and move on to a higher non-corporeal existence. Call it heaven if you like, but something where we do not have the trials of mortality that we do when we are alive.
Ame
I know what you are saying, Ame. Just the thought of doing this all over makes me feel tired.:-) I often think about all my dd has ahead of her, the teenage years, college, the trials of growing up. I'm glad to have that all behind me.
Hol, thanks for sharing those book titles. It would be great to e-mail you as well. My addy is nikki_455 @ hotmail . com
Thanks so much!
The thing I do not like about Pascal's wager is that his argument is contingent on believnig on a *Christian* God, not just God. The reason I like the Power of Myth is that it compares all religions and shows the similarities. I am not reading it, personally, from the premise that there is no God.
I was tooling around the web and found this discussion from yahoo answers.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060711194347AAU2sXH
I do believe someone can be Christian and believe in Buddhism also becaus eit is based mainly on the same principles....right living, right acting, right spech etc. There are many forms of Buddhism though as there are many forms of Chrisitanity. I believe in the no God version, that we are all a piece of God and together make up the cosmic stream of consciousness. We break from that stream when we are born and return to it when we die. Just like a drop of water falling from the faucet and returning to the bucket. A crude metaphor but easy to understand. I do, by the way, believe that Jesus did exist and was crucified. I just do not believe it in the same context as others.
Some authors I like are Lama Surya Das and Deepak Chopra. I have more to add but must get ready for work.
I, too, love Deepak Chopra. He is a Hindu, and has much to teach us. I also like the author of "Living Buddha, Living Christ", but at the moment, his name escapes me. I will have to do an Amazon search. He is a Buddhist monk.
Kim, there are MANY theories and philosphies, and I don't see how they are at all at odds with each other. We all come from the same Source and will return to the same Source. In between, we seek a relationship with the Source, or not.
Nicki and Ame, the whole point is, we don't HAVE to come back and do it again, if we don't want to. It is always up to us. Nicki, I will email you, so we can talk some more.
I KNOW that I have been here before. Apparently, there were things that I still wanted to learn. I also know that I once died in a fall, because I have a deathly fear of heights. If I am enclosed, such as in a plane, I am okay. However, if I am somewhere that I can fall off of, I am terrified. When I was I was in York, England (a walled city, built by the ancient Romans), the rest of my family chose to walk the top of the wall. I couldn't, and it is not that high. I also used to have dreams, when I was little, that I was in a car with my Mom, and we were falling off a cliff. I have also had dreams for years of falling, and I will jerk so hard, it wakes me up. Many unreasonable fears have past life connections.
God didn't write the book, Christians believe he guided those who did. Therefore, why would it be so hard to believe that God is guiding people like Sylvia Browne in her writing and speaking?
I just really quickly wanted to respond. I don't think that that argument's logic holds. The way I see it, if one believes that the Bible was in fact written by men guided by God, then He couldn't have been guiding Sylvia Browne because if He had been, He would be contradicting the Bible, and thus Himself.
Just a thought.
Hol, I am confused with your statement to me. I don't think they are all at odds with each other.
Kim, I'm sorry that I worded it wrong. I was agreeing with you.
I wondered that. Thanks for clarifying!
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