Spanish Star Spangled Banner
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Spanish 'Star Spangled Banner'
A new version of the Star Spangled Banner sung in Spanish. There are many who don't agree with it, including President Bush (and I agree with him).
So, does the language it's sung in matter? Does it matter that some of the words have been changed? Are you okay with it? Why or why not?
And, I guess the next question is, should English be made the official language of the US (or is that a different debate)?
I think it definitely matters what language it's sung in, and that language should be English! And, yes, English should be the official language of the US. If you were moving to any other country, you would have to "learn the language"! Why not here?
This is a huge button for me, so, for the moment, I'm going to sit back and see what everyone else has to say!!! 
Are they just looking to P O people?
We have 2 official languages in Canada - English and French. We sing the anthem in both languages.
Which "they" do you mean, Collette?
I note that the Spanish version of the Star Spangled Banner was done by a British music producer, not by anyone from the Spanish-speaking community. So if anyone is looking to PO people, it would be this British producer.
Does it matter? Yes. It is the national anthem of the United States, and other people should leave it alone - but don't hold your breath. I suspect the only reason it hasn't been satirized is that it is so hard to sing at all.
Should English be the "official" language of the United States. Well, for all practical purposes it is. Our laws are written in English, courts use English and provide translators for non-English speakers, and schools use ESL classes to help students keep up with their studies *while* learning English. But to have a law or constitutional amendment - I don't know.
I have, many times, fulminated that election ballots should be in English only. After all, proving that you speak and read English is part of the requirements for becoming a citizen. But for a lot of other things, I don't see any harm in having dual signs, in English and the language of the community where the signs are posted. That only makes sense, just in terms of safety if nothing else.
However, in most other countries of the world, children learn English as a second language in their schools. You would be hard put to go anywhere in the developed world and most of the third world and not find someone who speaks pretty good English.
I couldn't care less. Of course I'm Canadian too and learned to sing our anthem in french. I personally prefer the french. Sounds beautiful and the lyrics are a lot more poetic.
But what is singing the anthem about?
Is it a political statement about what a country thinks it should be?
Is it a personal expression of love for a person's country?
If it's the first then there's a debate to be had. If it's the second then I don't think it should matter what language it's sung in and people should be left to love their country in whatever language they choose.
I didn't realize English WASN'T the official language of the US. I'm against singing the Star Spangled Banner in Spanish, period.
"they" would be the people who sang and produced this song.
WOW. I agree. It's a BIG NO NO here.
How about we go to Mexico and rearrange their anthem in English for us?
Hey Unschool....I agree with you!!!! LOL
I really don't care either, and I agree with Unschool. Then again, I'm NOT a patriotic person in the slightest.
I completely see the side of those against it though, I just personally don't care.
Ginny, in Michigan there is a law being proposed in the state legislature (but not being taken seriously) simply to make English the official language of the State of Michigan. One of our city commissioners spoke out against it on the news, and I contacted him by email and had a delightful exchange with him.
He said that the law made no sense b/c of the fact that no one knows English when they first come here to live, regardless of what country they migrate from. It has been that way since the birth of our nation. There is no need to create a "law" that states that English is the official language- everyone who has ever come here and became citizens has either gotten by with limited knowlegde of English or have made the effort to learn it. Furthermore, he sees the objective being better served with a proposal for programs to educate those who don't have the means to acquire a formal education in ESL.
I agree with him on those issues, but it's the road signs that I disagreed with him on. He said that all that is required for non-English speaking drivers is mere recognition of the signs, not to actually know what they say. I assume that mostly goes for street signs, since many other signs are printed with symbols rather than just words, ie, a hexagon with an arrow pointing up for "Stop Ahead."
I know this is off-topic-- sorry!
Another note...our national anthem was written to declared us independent of any other nation. (specifically England). It was part of our heritage and foundation. So it just seems wrong for it to be sung in another nations language. To me that is like saying my wedding vows in spanish. It isn't part of who my hubby and I are and it would be forcing an issue.
Ditto Crystal.... 100%. That's all i'll add.
What I don't understand is that you can take your driving test in any language but all the signs are in English. Shouldn't someone who drives in this country be able to read the signs? Just a thought! lol
I agree with Crystal and Melissa.
>>>Hey Unschool....I agree with you!!!! LOL>>>
EEEP!!!
We'll have to remember this Reds. It may not ever happen again.
Actually, too late. I'm sort of with you on the lack of patriotism thing too.
I am against the whole Spanish Star Spangled Banner too.
I don't care if people come here and speak their language, but i think they need to learn English as well. I wouldn't go to Mexico and expect them to speak English for me, i would learn Spanish because that is what they speak.
I am also against the "Spanish" Star Spangled Banner. This is America!!
Just my two cents worth...
I know this topic can get really heated, what with everything going on and all. I just hope that those debating this topic remember that it was a British producer who came up with the song.
Mark another strongly against it for me!!
Well ... the tune was originally a British drinking song and we re-wrote the words, or rather they were taken from the poem by F.S. Key. So the actual history of "ownership" of the song is kind of murky.
I has however been our national anthem and sung in our English words for long enough for somebody not to fool with it.
As far as our friends the Canadians' POV, would your opinions change any if your largest immigrant population (or someone in some other nation, on their behaf) decided to add a third language to your anthem which has traditionally been in both French and English?
I find this just one more indicator of the world's attitude toward the United States, which is not very good right now.
Ame
Well put, Ame.
>>As far as our friends the Canadians' POV, would your opinions change any if your largest immigrant population (or someone in some other nation, on their behaf) decided to add a third language to your anthem which has traditionally been in both French and English?>>
No. I'd love to hear a Cantonese version (In fact I'm sure I've heard not only a cantonese version but one in a native canadian language). I just really don't think the importance of the anthem lies in what language it's sung in. To me it's like picking a fight with your husband because the dozen roses he brought you were red and not pink.
And I'm not sure where the anti-americanism fits in. If anything it's just an indication that perhaps Canadians aren't as attached to language as a political means to patriotism. And Americans are. Big deal, it's nothing bad or good, just different.
If America's approval rating was high in the world everyone would be trying to sing it in English. This just seems like one more anti American slap in the face.
Maybe you do just have to be American to understand why it might be upsetting. We have very little that culturally unifies us anymore. Language is one area in which we've tried to become united. Traditionally it was a point of pride for an immigrant like my father and grandparents to learn English. Now, it seems to be the fashion not to learn it. Language is a huge part of culture. When you grow up in a multilingual society perhaps it's not such a big deal to switch from language to language.
Here, language and regional accent are very much tied into our identity as Americans, at least to me.
Thanks, Crystal. And thanks, Dawn for your insight.
Ame
If I may, I think I can clarify this a bit for our Canadian friends.
The reason we can be so protective of our anthem, as well as our other various symbols, has to do with the human aspect of sacrifice. Our nation has been born of the blood of the sacrifice of many very brave and passionate men and women, and throughout our nation's history, sacrifices have conitinued to be made for the purpose of maintaining the integrity of our existence as a nation. That still means very much to us as Americans.
The Star Spangled Banner is also sung as a dedication of gratitude to those whose sacrifice made our nation's existence possible. To alter it in any way is disrespectful to them.
Wow - I don't think translating the anthem into another language is really "altering" it, so I don't see how that can be disrespectful. I guess I just don't see it that way.
Unschool - Very well put and I agree.
Ame - I think you're right on with your last post, and I think that's why so many people disagree with the Spanish anthem.
This is interesting, because I really can see everyone's point of view, but again, it's not something I feel strongly about so I'm more open-minded on this one!
The article that was linked in the OP does in fact state that the lyrics were altered to soften war references. If it were a literal translation of the words directly from English to Spanish, perhaps this wouldn't be such a big debate. But it isn't an exact translation- license was taken to alter it to rhyme and to change the tone.
That was an incredibly well-written explanation, Ame. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words so much than I could have done.
Sorry Cocoabutter...I did miss that. It still doesn't bother me either way, but I guess anything that's being translated IS going to lose something of the originality just based on language and rhyming issues.
I should have said I didn't remember that from the article, since I read it quickly a few days ago!
That's okay, Reds.
I suppose we could give the writers credit for having their hearts in the right place, but I think we Americans would have appreciated the gesture more if they had come up with an original song of their own rather than borrow our National Anthem and then trash it.
How is changing the words a bit so that they rhyme trashing it? I would think that coming to the US and choosing to only sing a different anthem would be disrespect, not singing your anthem in their language. What this shows me is that they are choosing to honour your country as their own.
I'm with Unschoolmom on this one. I am thrilled that my kids are learning our anthem in different languages, and would welcome it in any language. Our country is so multicultural, and I love that!
It is my opinion that when you come to America and take the legal actions to become and American, you are then an American. If you want to honor this country as your own, you don't go around changing the words to go with the language to your former country!! You honor this country by singing the song in the language that was fought so hard for. That is honoring something.
But all those people who sacrificed their lives;
a) Did they sacrifice it for the specific purpose of having an english anthem or for the less specific freedoms that might allow citizens to sing that anthem in different languages?
b) What of those who sacrificed their lives whose first language wasn't english?
I understand that argument but I have trouble with it because, to me, it presumes to know the intent of those who aren't around anymore to voice any disagreement or speak for themselves. We can say they helped build a great nation and maintained it's integrity but we can't really presume that they'd agree that translating the anthem is a bad thing.
This language issue is one that's popped up in religion too. Changing from Latin to english for Catholics. I know in the Anglican church using the language of those in your congregation whether you're in England or China is an important ideal. It's because language is so important to congregations. Because community and involvement are built on language.
Individuals best express things in their mother tongue. Anthem's are a love song to a nation and I think love is best expressed in the language that's closest to your heart. To be mushy about it, I think it's lovely if some want to sing about their love in Spanish. But that language is so close to everyone's heart is probably why it's such a big issue to so many people on both sides of the issue.
I love the sound of our french version of the anthem and the lyrics are beautiful but when I sing it it's essentially an exercise in phonics. The english version is blustery and less graceful but it's the one I really understand and think about and that speaks to me. I just don't want to deny other citizens that.
Ditto Vicki.
I think this is partially irritating due to timing. We're struggling with an immigration situation that is dividing our already fragile country. Half the world hates us, but they still want to pretty much invade us, or take our money, and expect our military to protect them. We're feeling a lot of hatred from the world right now, and even more hatred between our own people. This country used to stand for something amazing and beautiful, and it's in the process of self-distructing, IMO. That's painful for us, so few people take any pride in being American anymore, and this is one more slap in the face to those of us who do.
>>"This country used to stand for something amazing and beautiful, and it's in the process of self-distructing.."<<
Crystal, I think you're right on target. I agree with you. I just happen to be one of the many who feels little to no pride in being an American so the language of the anthem doesn't matter much to me.
AH! So that's the difference. Not only are there those who aren't American and couldn't care less, but there are Americans who take no pride in our nation. (no offense intended- just making an observation)
It just hit me that it is all about patriotism and pride in our country.
Here is my main issue with the new Spanish Star Spangled Banner. We have our symbols- our monuments, our flag, our bald eagle, our Pledge of Allegiance, and we have our National Anthem. They are all sacred to us as patriotic Americans. They represent to us the personal sacrifice, the loss of life and limb, the blood, sweat, tears, hard work, drive, passion, vision and ambition that all went into creating and maintaining this as a free nation.
For people who are not even American to re-write (it wasn't a direct translation- it was a re-write!) the words of our National Anthem to suit their own meaning (and they did change the tone of the original words to soften war references) is to desecrate the song itself and to disrespect the very foundation upon which our nation was built.
A love song to a nation? Okay, I can see how you could feel that way. But it isn't up to every individual to write and sing the words he/she feels most comfortable with. It is a song adopted by the nation as a whole. It should be respected as a gift to the unified nation from its author and sung in its original text. (Incidentally, in many of the dictionary definitions I looked up on the internet, an "anthem" is "A choral composition having a sacred or moralizing text in English." http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=anthem)
I will grant you that not all of the men and women who sacrificed their lives and/or fought for our freedoms were English-speaking, and I cannot tell you how they would feel about the language of the National Anthem. However, history states that they were fighting for freedom, for a new nation, for a better life in a new land, and for a new democracy.
Furthermore, regardless of what language they spoke, every ethnic group that has ever settled in this land and become citizens has assimilated and has learned the language EXCEPT for the illegal immigrants. As you said, community and involvement are based on language, but it doesn't seem to me that the illegal immigrants want to become part of the American community and become involved in American life. There is an overwhelming majority of them who have no interest whatsoever in learning a word of English. They have no intention of assimilating into the American culture. They would prefer to have their own piece of our country on their own terms. Yes this is a "free country" but that is not what is meant by "free."
I am VERY proud to be an American. We are the only nation on the planet that people are literally dying to get into. That's because we are the best.
If you think we are self-destructing now, you should have been around during the cultural revolution of the 1960's and the Viet Nam war. You should have been around during the Great Depression and WWII. You should have been around for the Civil War. Yet we survived as a nation unified and had the strength and the fortitude to get through ALL of those trying times and come out shining!!!!
I think that was very well put Cocoabutter, and I truly believe that people who don't agree with the Spanish anthem probably are very patriotic and I can definitely see that point of view.
A little off-topic though and directed toward your last paragraph:I don't think WWII, the Depression,and Vietnam were self-destruction though. They were terrible times of circumstance that our country made it through, together. From my perspective, Americans today just can't stand EACH OTHER in general. The crime, the abuse of children, the money hungry who sue if you look at them wrong, the "I can do it any way I want because I live in America" attitude, and the disrespect in general for everything and everyone. I just don't feel like we're "shining" now...I think we're falling apart at the seams in so many ways. I think the American glory days are long gone and it's very sad to me. That's why *I* personally am not patriotic about my country. I don't like feeling that way, but I truly do.
Reds, I see your point, but I feel that when it matters most, the people of this country come through for each other. Look at all the things that were done after 911 and the hurricanes last year. People were waiting in lines to give blood and billions of dollars were donated for different causes. Can you me you didn't feel pride in your country then??
And how about the fact that the US has appropriated the name of America. You are not the only Americans in the world, i am too because i am from the American continent. Yet, the US uses it as if it was only theirs and noone elses. That offends me very much. That i cannot longer identify with being an American because people assume i am from the US and in no way would i want to give that impression.
I know many people that wouldn't like to live in the US (myself for starts), not for a million dollars and if they are dying to get in is because border patrol officers are killing them (or were at least at one point).
However, i can see your point about being patriotic and everything. The national anthem is indeed a very significant symbol of a country and it should be left alone. If people want to write a love song about the country where they live they should be allowed but it should be different (if only, just to use their imagination!).
Deanna, i think what you feel about your country is happening around the globe too, which is indeed very sad. I just read a book called "Bowling Alone" by Robert Putman (from the US)where he studies the civil habits of US citizens now and compares them with those of a hundred and then fifty years ago. He explains that there has been a decline in social connectedness and that this has had an effect in many aspects of social and economic life. Even in health, he argues that people with more connections, who do more volunteering, know their neighbours, are politically active, etc. have better health chances and are in general happier.
It is a fascinating study. His research is very impressive and the conclusions he draws are very frightening because you can almost see it happening. I really recommend this book for anyone who wants to understand why this world is in such a mess (among so many other reasons). The study i about the US but i can relate it to here (UK) and Mexico too. It is indeed very impressive.
I agree with Vicki. Having a Dad who went through Vietnam, he says it seems bad now, but it is nothing compared to how bad it was w hen he came home from the war. Remember our vetrans were spat on, harrassed, rocks thrown at. At least now even when people are against the war, they support our troops.
To Vicki - I agree that there was pull together after 9/11 and somewhat for Katrina, but with regard to 9/11, it seemed like it felt more like "Let's go kick some a**. You don't do this to Americans." Did you get that feeling?
Kaye-I think the way soldiers were treated after Vietnam was a lesson that has been applied to the current war situation. I think people in general do not want to see that happen again, even those desparately against the war (such as myself). I can't imagine how those soldiers must have felt (my FIL was one of them), and although I am against the war with every part of my being, I am NOT against the military people who are doing the job they signed up for/required to do.
Maria - The book you recommended sounds very interesting. Your sentiments about the US and our reference to "Americans" is interesting to me, because my DH and I talk frequently about how foreigners feel about coming to live in our country. To talk to people around here, I'm quite sure they all think that anyone who is not a US citizen is just dying to come live in the US because we're supposedly so "great". I've never seen it that way, at least in my European travels. It's enlightening to hear you say that you don't want to live in the US and I'm not surprised in the least.
Naturally those who have it good in the country in which they live wouldn't have the desire or feel the need to go where they have a chance at a better life. They are content where they are.
However, in oppressed countries like Cuba, where they cross the ocean in makeshift rafts, or Mexico, where they jump onto moving trains, the urge to come to the Land of Opportunity is so great that they risk life and limb just to have the chance to look at our side of the border.
Maria, I find your words offensive. I am just being honest. I know you were just being honest as well, and giving your opinion, which you should be able to do on this board. But we here do not make a habit of putting down other countries. That you find it offensive that we call our land "America" and bashing us is not the point of this thread. I have no idea how or when the reference to the U.S. as "America" became prevalent. I would have to do some research. But I don't feel I should have to defend my country to you or anyone else.
Karen, not all of our people are supporting our troops. There are still troops getting spat on, insults hurled at them, etc.
Maria, while TECHNICALLY true, your homeland is an on an American continent, it has long been tradition to call the United States "America". I don't think you should take this as an insult. Of course, that's JMHO. Your country has a name, and America happens to be the name given to ours. Thefact that we're all on North America is regardless, we're all on Earth and in the Milky Way, too.
Lisa, i am sorry if i offended you, it was not my intention. But as this is a public board i was just giving my opinion. And i think i have expressed it in a way that i gave my own side of the story responding directly to something i didn't agree with but without using any bad or offensive language directed to anyone in particular. If the moderators think differently then it is their job to make sure that posting guidelines are followed so i would be happy to remove my post if they ask me to.
Maybe i should mention that i do not dislike people from the US. I have many friends from the US, i have visited it many times and have nothing against its people. What i have a problem with is the attitude of some people that think the USA is the best country and that no other country compares to it.
I am sorry, but this has been my experience in this board and other areas where i have had the chance to listen to US citizens opinions. I was indeed directing my post to your last post just to give another point of view saying that actually the US is not regarded as the greatest country by all nations of the world. Neither the greatest enemy.
I think it is important that people from the US realise that there are other countries, with their own cultures and very proud to be from those cultures, who wouldn't change that for anything not even to live in the Land of opportunity. There are other lands of opportunities too, depending on the needs of the individuals. Mexico, for instance is the land of opportunities for many Central-Americans.
I too find offensive the lack of acknowledgement of some people to the value of other cultures and i have found that in my experience with some anglo-saxons, so i speak mainly from own experience.
Yet i have all the respect for those people who fought for democratic ideals before our time in your country, i have all the respect for all the great thinkers the US has given to the world, and the ideologies that have come out from so many revolts and protests that have been led in the US.
That said, these great minds and ideologies have not been exclusive to the US, so i think that is important to acknowledge that as well, and i perceive that to some US persons that is not the case.
Maria, those were kind words. Thank-you.
I think it can safely be said that this is a matter of emotional debate, so it is difficult for some to maintain a level of moderate insanity.
Wikipedia does a good job of explaining the current dilemma that arises from the use of "American" to describe the U.S. There is however no answer as to just when or how the U.S. came to be referred as such.
I do believe that there are great people all over the world, and that the U.S. has not been the sole supplier of great thinkers and innovators. But we do have an awful lot to be proud of in regard to how far we have come as a nation as a whole. Sure we have our societal problems. So does France, so does China, etc... But we have triumphed over past difficulties and trials, whether they were brought on by extenuating circumstances or by our own society's angst. We have conquered and we have endured. We will continue to do so, and to be proud of it.
Lisa, you are right in that this debate can get too emotional. Next time i should keep it to the point and not wander off with other emotional bagagge that no one needs to know about!
As for the use of America i guess i have gotten used to it. I don't like it but there is nothing i can do. It doesn't affect my sleep at night, let's put it that way.
Now, back to the main topic, it may surprise you that i actually defend your right to have a national anthem in the official language of your country and that it should not be messed with. What i mean is although it may be done to demonstrate love and affection for the US, it does not recognise the history from which the country was formed.
I am all for diversity, but in your country as in mine i think all immigrants legal or illegal should make an effort to assimilate the culture of their host country. That, and i've mentioned this before happens with English speaking language immigrants in Mexico. I know many who have been living there for many years and do not bother to speak a word of Spanish.
The same goes for my connationals, if they want to live abroad they should learn the language first and then make an effort to integrate into society, which fortunately for all immigrants of the world is inccreasingly becoming more tolerant of other cultures, giving way to multicultural societies, such as i imagine happens in many parts of the United States.
COOL. We agree!!
>>"What i have a problem with is the attitude of some people that think the USA is the best country and that no other country compares to it."<<
Maria - I'm born and bred in the cornfields of the Midwest, USA and I could not agree more!!! Your sentiments are mine and (and DH's) exactly. Your whole post sounded like discussions between DH and I, especially after going abroad.
Crystal - Very true and sad. Just recently a soldier was killed in Iraq from my city and laid to rest here. The group from OK was here - those who go around to military funerals and harass the family of the dead for some "divine" reason. It's absolutely horrid.
I know we're getting off topic here, but I just wanted to say that!
Deanna, unfortunately is like that in some cases, but i hate to generalise, i have never liked it because i know that there are many smart people all around the world that do not share the sentiments of a few. It is like saying that all Germans are nazis.
I could never say i don't like the US, neither could i say that Mexico is the best country in the world. I admire more an open mind than any history of success because after all, no one except God (and that is my own belief) holds the truth of anything.
My first instinct was to denounce all the bad things i have heard about the US just to make the point that indeed there is a lot of hate towards the US in Europe and probably the rest of the world. But i find that extremely unfair, because as i said before not all "Americans" are bad, neither they are all good.
Actually is not the people that bothers me (people are just people, good AND bad around the world), it is the politicians that interfere in other countries and then go on to say that they are the saviours of the world that really bothers me.
But that is off the point again, and anyway i have said that in another post. I have nothing against the US per se, but don't like it when i they believe they are here to save the world because in my opinion that is entirely not the case.
Sorry, i won't go off topic anymore!
What i have a problem with is the attitude of some people that think the USA is the best country and that no other country compares to it.
Again, I think this goes back to patriotism. There is no place else in the world that I would rather live. Do I agree with everything? Of course not, but would I want to leave this country and live else where...NO WAY!!
And I feel the same way about my country. There is no better place to be.
Marcia, that is the way it should be!! You should think your country is the best country!!
I agree Vicki - you SHOULD think that about your country. We just don't and I'm not saying that I don't feel badly about it but you can't change how you feel. DH and I have talked over and over about raising our child elsewhere. Just uprooting and moving to a European country. The only thing that has ever held us back is that we know we would NEVER see our families. Maybe 1x a year if we're lucky. None of them would ever travel that far, or honestly be able to afford to. Family has won out so far, because we think it's very important for her. We should have gone before she came along! DH *could* have applied for an overseas transfer, but both of our dads were ill during that time and, you know, life was just in the way I guess.
Well ladies, I suppose that the negative things are always the easiest to dwell on. There are no books in the self -help section about how to think negatively because everybody already knows how to. It's just so easy to focus on the negative, and once that pessimistic way of thinking has taken a hold of you, it's hard to shake.
It takes more effort to be positive and to reinforce positive aspects about anything in life. That is why the book is called "The Power of Positive Thinking" and not "The Power of Negative Thinking."
The media can be partly to blame. All you hear on the news in negativity, whether it has to do with the war or the latest murder or molestation. Whether it's the local news or the national news. It's all bad bad bad bad bad bad BAD. There is panic everywhere, about the bird flu, about illegal immigration, about gas/oil prices. There is criticism about our president, vice president, secretary of defense. 20/20 did a whole story on how rude people are (perhaps to point out to us how we need to improve on our behavior toward our fellow citizens.)
Need I go on? Are you depressed yet?
It takes effort to be proud of our generosity and our good will towards others. It takes effort to remember that the U.S. (not the government - the private citizens) freely gave more money than any other country to the victims of the tsunami. That people all over the nation voluntarily took time off from their jobs and their lives to go to the gulf coast and lend a hand after the hurricanes. I bet you couldn't even tell by watching the news that the nation's economy overall is growing by leaps and bounds. Thousands of legal immigrants become new U.S. citizens every year. (I happen to know one!) Just the other day, a teenage girl saved an old man from death. http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=4830102
So there is a lot of good in this country- you just have to make the effort and go looking for it.
Crystal - Very true and sad. Just recently a soldier was killed in Iraq from my city and laid to rest here. The group from OK was here - those who go around to military funerals and harass the family of the dead for some "divine" reason. It's absolutely horrid.>>>>>
That was likely Fred Phelps and his hoarde I think. Best known for their hateful and violent views of gays.
The one thing I'd like everyone to remember is that not all of the soldiers approve of what's happening. They are coming home with PTSD, if they come home at all, all for a cause they didn't believe in, but had to follow orders. This isn't EVERY soldier, but many more than you think. The American public sometimes forgets that the BOSS of the military is the President, and when an order comes down you either follow it, or go to jail.
And yes, that was a bit off topic, but I felt it needed to be said, because I've sat with too many friends while they twitched in their sleep and had nightmares about what they've seen and done, all because they had to.
Since everyone else is going totally off topic, , I will, too.
Lisa, I just wanted to mention something about your positive news post. You're right, it should be the positive that we hear about. I need to comment on something, though. You said that the US gave freely more than any other country. Please take a look at the number of people in the US compared to other countries. While Canada is bigger than the US, you have more people in California alone than we have in the whole country. That can sure explain why your citizens gave more. We all did our best!
Yes, that may be true. Sorry, I didn't mean to boast really. I only wanted to point out that we are a nation of givers, which is a positive.
Well - turns out this is a lot of wasted indignation. It also turns out that in 1919 the U.S. Dept. of Education (yes, our government) prepared a Spanish version of our national anthem, which has been available on the Library of Congress web site for at least two years.. And that at the National Anthem Proect's library, there are "vintage translations in Polish, French, Italian, Porguuese and Armenian, among others."
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/nation/14517950.htm
I disagree, Ginny. For one thing the Philadelphia Inquirer article is written as more of an opinion piece than informative news. Furthermore, looking at the sheet music, I am guessing (although I don't know Spanish) that the translation from 1919 was a direct translation and that the melody was left intact. I am not so much against it being sung in Spanish (or whatever other language) as I am it being RE-WRITTEN and the melody and tune being RE-ORGANIZED so as to suit someone else's agenda as has so blatantly been done by the recent Spanish version written by the British author.
As I said earlier, I would not have minded so much if the words were DIRECTLY translated and the melody left alone. It seems as though the proponents of this new Spanish version are trying to dull the criticism by referring to it as a mere "translation" when it is in fact re-written.
Furthermore, whatever translations the original text by Francis Scott Key had undergone, many of them were PRIOR to the song being OFFICIALLY adopted as the National Anthem in 1931. Since it has become official, it should be left alone.
Don't we have to wait long enough for a baseball game to start? How many versions must we have to "include" everyone?
If we didn't have so many things translated, you wonder if they would actually take the time to learn the language. Our money that THEY earn and send over the border is in English. Heck, there's even a little latin thrown in there for them.
:-P
It seems to me that the issue of a paraphrase of the national anthem being written by a British music producer and recorded by a bunch of Spanish-speaking performers he rounded up is one thing - and the issue of illegal immigrants/illegal workers is another.
The British producer did it for money probably, trying to piggyback on the current immigration furor. (Personally, I think it was stupid, and I sincerely hope he doesn't make a profit on it.)
As for the issue of illegal workers, I continue to have very mixed feelings about that. But I realize that there have been thousands and hundred of thousands of illegal workers for decades, and after the furor and legislation in 1984, it is only in the past couple of months - with primary elections taking place across the country and a national election in November - that the issue has become headlines. Which makes me wonder about the motives of the politicians beating this particular drum.
I continue to believe that if our government were serious about getting a handle in illegal workers, Congress would allocate more funds to the INS and the INS would go after the employers of these illegal workers. But there is too much profit to the employers for them to want the U.S. to really control illegal workers.
The workers themselves would not come here if they could not get jobs. They are, as several have said, simply trying to feed their families and have a better life. But that couldn't happen without the eager complicity of the employers. You really don't get half of the construction workers in Florida being illegals without a widespread belief by the employers that they can hire illegals without consequences. I don't blame the individual workers - yes, they know they are doing something illegal, but it beats having starving children. I do blame the employers, who by hiring illegals can get cheaper labor and either make higher profits or underbid employers who only hire legal workers. So for me, the THEY is the employers.
My point is that if you want to be angry about the paraphrasing of the national anthem, be angry with the people who did it. If you want to be angry about the issue of illegal workers, that's another issue (and another thread), and I doubt very much if any illegal worker had anything to do with it.
You are correct in that it isn't the illegal immigrants' fault that the Star Spangled Banner got rewritten. Nonetheless, as a result of this stupid British producer and his expoitation of the debate, possibly for his own gain, they have in fact adopted it as THEIR anthem.
The problem I have with the illegals is that they feel entitled to be here regardless of our laws. They didn't come here to BE Americans. They came here for jobs.
They say everyone is an immigrant because we all descended from immigrants. My answer to that is that every other ehthnic group that has ever immigrated here did so with the goal of BECOMING a United States citizen and has assimilated and made a better life for themselves. They didn't do it just for work and to send grocery money and rent money back to their own country to mom and dad.
As far as the employers, I find it ironic that the exploitation of cheap labor is tanamount to the sweat shops that got Kathy Lee Gifford into trouble. It's perfectly acceptable to pay an illegal immigrant sub-standard wages but sweat shop operators are cursed into the ground. Where is the outcry for fair wages? Where is the outcry for the health insurance for these poor underpaid underappreciated workers?
And I think you hit the nail on the head, Ginny. With the Republicans jumping on the immigration bandwagon as well, I am beginning to wonder if this isn't all just further exploitaion of these people in a huge effort to pander to voters. Furthermore, can you imagine the field day that the policitians would have if the illegal immigrants achieved voting rights and were added to the voting base?
I agree with Ginny..
To blame anyone other than the people that made the changes is wrong. The Spanish speaking people didn't request a song to be written. There wasn't a poll taken or a vote on it's lyrics.
We are putting all Hispanic immigrants into a stereo type, which is how hate crimes are fueled, many/most come here willing to do what they have to do to assimilate to our country.. As all have since the "founding" of the United States of America. Unless we are full blooded Native American we are ALL immigrants here.. And why now do the immigrants not deserve what all of our ancestors received??
This is a song, written by a man that isn't even Spanish. Recorded and then broad cast by the news to fire a debate and to fuel the issues already stirring uprisings in our already shook to the core nation... Which our government and the New Stations, NOT the immigrants, have created.. They (the government) allow the employers to out source our companies, they allow the states to regulate their own minimum wage and they do not regulate the payroll of the employers so that all people's in like positions are paid an equal and fair income.. And the employers are not held to a hiring standard.. Meaning if the employers were forced to document their employees or suffer a major loss then the illegals wouldn't be able to gain employment.. The government allows it and we blame the people that are just trying to provide for their families..
You know, I personally think that if they had sung it word for word there would have been just as many issues then.. Seeings that their ancestors didn't "found" (if that is what you want to call it) this nation.. It is sung coming from people that didn't fight the battles or suffer the losses to "gain our freedom", which is why the war references were "softened".
That said, I believe that many of our ancestors went through the same things the Hispanic immigrants are.. We all know for sure that the African American people were killed fighting for the rights the Hispanic community is requesting... Not to many years ago actually... Our freedoms came at a cost to many of our non English ancestors and to many of them as well.. This uprising isn't the first and won't be the last... It is just sad that we are still trying to see things as a them and us. When the them isn't really the immigrants..
911 shook us up, but it has also killed and damaged more of our men/women. Who by the way are not all coming home to a warm reception.. And we have had the protesters here too when a soldier is brought back for burial..
My sister and BIL are both in the National Guard. My sister is in the National Guard transport and while transporting they stopped to fuel up and a man walked up to one of the male soldiers and asked him if they had fought in Iraq and then informed him that he was a baby killer and spit on him.. The soldier turned on his heals got on the truck and cried because he did what he had to come home to his family.. Something he will never forget... This is just one instance of issues.. They are often flipped off by people while they are transporting and screamed out at with Anti war comments..
And the people that are still living in campers, with flood walls that are still damaged and that are preparing for the hurricanes that will start next month might beg to differ on how well we pulled together for them..
I know people are going to say, well those are the few (Americans) but why can't we see that it is the few immigrants that aren't coming here prepared to acclimate to our "lives" here in the States?
"They didn't do it just for work and to send grocery money and rent money back to their own country to mom and dad." Actually, Most immigrants send money home to help support their families in their native countries.. In fact most families send one or two members to America to gain employment, help support the family and save the money to bring the rest of the family over. And for that matter, that is how most of us got here in the first place...
"They didn't come here to BE Americans. They came here for jobs." Most immigrants are here for employment reasons and the rest are here for freedom from religious persecution.. Not because America is the greatest place to be, but because American Laws are easier than their own.. American jobs, even minimum wage ones pay better than their jobs.. Here 5 dollars and hour makes you on welfare. There 5 dollars and hour makes you rich when your neighbors are making 5 dollars a day...
As far as the sweat shops, our government doesn't profit from a sweat shop in China.. BUT it does profit from a sweat shop in the United States through tax revenue.. Turning a blind eye is key to becoming a congressman, your vision only improves when an up rising occurs.. There is on out cry, their answer was out sourcing, which also profits our government by the way...
Featured stories from Gannett News Service and USATODAY, Border Devided
I agree that the affects of stereotyping can be dangerous. I probably sound like a racist bigot to you. I apologize if that is the way I came across.
However, I disagree with you that we are putting all hispanic immigrants into the same group. I can say for myself that I certainly am not doing so. I have been very clear about that from the beginning. However, the pro-illegal immigration movement and the media, in an effort to convey support and garner sympathy for the illegal immigrants, are in fact doing just what you said. The media and the illegal immigration supporters are the ones not distinguishing between ILLEGAL immigrants and LEGAL immigrants. They are the ones who, when you hear a story on the news about a demonstration, refer to it as an "Immigration Rally" rather than an "Illegal Immigration Rally." There is where the confusion lies.
This whole entire debate began with legislation passed in the US House that would strengthen our laws against ILLEGAL immigration and now look what it has turned into. Now they've got everyone thinking that if you support the law strengthening our immigration policy you are AGAINST IMMIGRATION as a whole. I started a thread a few weeks ago when this all first began about how we LOVE that people want to come to the U.S. and we WANT people to get a job and an education and make a life here. But we want them to do it LEGALLY.
I think I answered the question as to why these immigrants don't deserve what our ancestors had. Our ancestors mostly came to this country with a great respect for its heritage and its laws. Our ancestors came in through the front door with the goal of doing whatever it took to become citizens and give something back to our nation in return for the guarantee of freedom and the means to earn a living. The illegal immigrants snuck in through the back window and now expect to be treated as though they came in through the front door. In fact, they demand it.
I agree that the government has allowed this for far too long. However, the blame cannot be placed solely on the shoulders of the government. The illegal immigrants are the ones who knowingly broke the laws to gain access to our resources.
Yes, they are trying to provide for their families. They currently are having problems doing that in Mexico b/c of a system that maintains a sub-culture of low-wage workers without any promise of advancement in the future. For one thing, a revolt against that system in Mexico is long overdue, and for another, unless they gain access to our resources LEGALLY, they are guaranteeing that they will not be able to have any chance for advancement here either.
If they had sung the Star Spangled Banner word for word, it may have been a bit grinding for some people considering the current climate of the debate. However, they wouldn't have had to have gone far to get the sheet music with the right words for it. It's in Ginny's post above.
And Thanks, Bobbie, for the link. I'll keep it handy.
In fact, my above point can be made about the media if you go to your link and just read the headlines that are listed there. The headlines refer only to "Immigrants" and "Immigrant Rights" or "Effects of Immigration" without distinguishing between legal and illegal immigration.
In fact, the only time the word "illegal" is included is when it is referring to the proposed legislation or to an "Anti-illegal demonstration"- any effort to stem the tide of illegal immigration is only then referred to including the word "illegal" to make anyone against illegal immigration look racist and insensitive.
Landmarks in Immigration History
211 years since the first immigration laws were written and the immigrates are still here and still fighting. And they aren't going to go away..
For those that don't know..
To come to America to work you have to apply for a work visa..
According to the Boston Globe "The wait is long for US visas"
That article claims, Between 3 million and 4 million people around the world are waiting for green cards, papers that allow noncitizens to live and work permanently in the United States, according to Bill Strassberger, spokesman for US Citizenship and Immigration Services.
Worldwide, workers without extraordinary skills or special status, such as exceptional scientists or academics, wait an average of five years before they can acquire a permanent work visa, while those hoping to come in under a separate program for family members of US residents are looking at waits of four to 23 years, depending on their country of origin and the nature of their relatives in the United States.
The delays are the result of both paperwork and the fact that many applicants must wait for a limited number of visas available under the law.
As Congress debates proposals to punish or limit illegal entry into the United States, immigration lawyers and advocates say the process is so prolonged, expensive, and filled with paperwork that would-be immigrants and US businesses who want to hire them have little incentive to follow the rules.
How to become a US citizen
*you have been a legal permanent resident for five years, or three years if you are married to a U.S. citizen
*you have lived in the U.S. for at least 2-1/2 years (50%) of the five year period, or 1-1/2 years (50%) if you are married to a citizen
*you have lived for more than three months in the state where you apply for citizenship
*you are 18 years or older
*you have good moral character
Me here..
Little hard to do when you can't get a green card/work visa.. Work visas are hard to obtain when you are a unskilled laborer. You have to put on your request/application for the visa, who you will be working for and how long that employment will last. Oh and they contact the employer to confirm your application through them.. IF you change/loose/or run out your approved stay on your visa at your job you have to go back to your country and reapply for a new visa for the new job/to return.. Going through the process all over again. You can not remain in the United States once you break the terms of your Visa. And you can't legally be in the United States to establish your five year residency with out and permanent work visa, seeings that a temporary work visa generally last less than 2 years and in the case of college students 4.. They are even harder to come by especially when you come from a poor country and are general unskilled labor. We are talking the working poor. Not a doctor coming here to work, that has applied for a job, interview for the job and been given a time line of employment.. those people get preferred treatment and moved to the front of the Lottery as they call it.
OH and lets not forget the fees... Fee Schedule
To apply for an Immigrant Petition for Alien worker it cost $195. You loose that money if they don't grant your petition and many aren't granted.
For a family to apply for temporary residency it cost.. $255 base, $630 for spouse and all family under 18 or 120 per person if not applied for under the family cap. And $70 in finger printing fees for each person in your family.. So a family of four we are talking over a thousand dollars just to apply.... and once again you do not have to be approved.. But to be here you have to apply from your own country... Send the money and your application in and wait for your number to be picked for legal admittance into our country..
Looking at all the fees for Naturalization it is no wonder they are illegals..
They only allow a certain number of legal immigrants into our country every year. Most of those positions are taken up by the educated, their families, the students that come here to attend our colleges and the people that are coming here to start up businesses.
It isn't like you walk into a building and say "hey I want to be an American", take a test and take an oath to hold America above the country that gave you life.. It is a long drawn out process that covers year, more years when you are poor... Too many years when your elderly parents and your wife and children are going hungry.. and it cost big money for those that are barely surviving..
And we can't stop child molesters or drug dealers from living/dealing\killing in our comunities... We surly aren't going to stop the illegals not when they are willing to risk their lives and their freedom to be here...
America is Immigration, 5 Immigration Myths Explained
Thought someone might find this interesting.. The First Americans,Correcting Myths and Misconceptions, not related to this topic but I found it on the site with the time table of immigration.
I think you should have to have a work visa and be able to support yourself before you come here. Why in the world would I want otherwise? All of my ancestors had to have sponsers when they came here. Why should we just add to the overburdened social services with people who can't hold their own?
and regardless of any opinion, the fact is, those are our laws. If you don't like them work to change them.
Great point, Colette!
So is the point that we shouldn't blame illegal immigrants for coming here illegally because our laws are (insert whiny voice here) "too hard" or "too expensive" to follow??? We should just excuse them for breaking our laws and make them all legal with the snap of our fingers because they have it so hard? Should we just open the flood gates and let the 3-4 million around the world waiting for green cards just come on in and make themselves at home?
Consider the fact that the terrorists who flew the planes into buildings on 9-11 were trained at a flight school IN FLORIDA. Perhaps it is for our own safety that we should be more careful and more vigilant about who we allow into our country and why.
Please don't take this personally and forgive me if this sounds insulting but I have a hard time crying with you and your bleeding heart argument. Your argument does not justify allowing immigrants to remain here illegally or excusing them from breaking our laws. What it does justify is perhaps a change in the existing process- a way to streamline it while still maintaining the security we need.
Here is something more for you to consider.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_450498.html
--The estimated 1.1 million illegal immigrants currently in the nation's public school system cost taxpayers $9.6 billion every year.
--The 2.2 million children of illegal immigrants in America, often referred to as "anchor babies" to ensure the parents can stay, add an additional $20 billion to that tab
--In California, the 2004-05 state budget spent $9,811 per pupil in the classroom. An estimated 425,000 illegal immigrants in the state's classrooms during that period cost taxpayers more than $4 billion -- a figure that does not include the "anchor baby" population in the classroom
--More than 40,000 illegal immigrants jammed California's prison system in 2004, costing taxpayers $1.5 billion in tax dollars not reimbursed by the federal government
--Illegal immigrants are allowed to claim children living back in Mexico and qualify for the earned-income tax credit, which traditionally has helped the American poor.
--But education is only one part of the social services system meant for at-risk and in-need Americans that illegal immigrants have drilled into: heath-care costs and subsidized housing are two other areas where the crushing cost of illegal immigration is destroying the system.
--Working- and middle-class Americans know that illegal immigrants do not live in the shadows, as political mythology would have it, but more aptly they occupy a parallel universe -- one that sees them compete for American jobs, access benefits for Americans and yet send their hard-earned money out of the country to Mexico, propping up a hopelessly corrupt government.
The immigrants do not only come from Mexico...
True, but I think we can acknowledge that, due to our proximity to their border, the overwhelming majority of them do...
Although there is really no way to be concretely certain; since the ones we are concerned with are all undocumented, how does anyone really know how many there are or where they are from?
"I have a hard time crying with you and your bleeding heart argument",
HMMM, bleeding hearts like mine are the ones that gave you the very freedoms you have.. From your citizenship, your right as a woman to be educated, your right as a woman to be employed, to your freedom from being your husbands property, to your right to vote, drive and speak your mind... All at one time or another were against the laws made up by our government.
In the summer of 1838, an Indian Removal treaty was signed and soldiers were ordered to round up the Cherokee into prison camps before relocating them. Although these camps were not intended to be extermination camps, and there was no official policy to kill people, some Indians were raped and/or murdered by US soldiers. Many more died in these camps due to disease, which spread rapidly because of the close quarters and bad sanitary conditions. Look into the "trail of Tears".
February, 1942 to the 120,000 Japanese Americans were removed from their homes in the "western defense zone" of the United States, and incarcerated in ten "internment" camps. Which many of you may live near.. They were located isolated areas of Utah, Montana, Arkansas, Arizona, California, Colorado, and Idaho. That would work right.. and the last of the camps was closed in March, 1946. The U.S. government officially apologized for the internment in 1988, saying that it was based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership" ((HMMM?)), and paid reparations to former inmates who were still alive.
Then there is our current situation in Guantanamo Bay. Which in February this year United Nations report called on the United States to immediately close the Guantanamo Bay facility, listing abuses and violations of human rights and of medical ethics, and saying that certain practices at the prison camp "must be assessed as amounting to torture" and go beyond what international law permits. The U.S. doesn't plan to close it.. How many of those poor people will be saying sorry to and paying when this "war" is all over??
What would be your suggestion?? should we ask them nicely to round up so we can detain them all?? We do have concentration camps here in America, staffed and ready. should we bring the soldiers home to shoot them on site? Maybe tell them to go home??? That might work..
Hey, we could start fining stores that sell them food, places that rent them places to live... force them into homelessness.. then may be they will go home..
Hmm, That sounds a bit like the Genocide going on in Dakar, Iraq and other parts of the country we are out there fighting and loosing our soldiers over... But history says clearly that we aren't beyond locking them all (whole families) up..
Our Government isn't going to make them go home, haven't and WILL NOT make them go home.. And all hell will break loose if Bush orders them detained..
So your non bleeding heart suggestion is??
I'm going to ignore the "bleeding heart argument" phrase and the whiny voice parenthesis comment after I say - Lisa, how could you possibly think it didn't sound insulting? This may be the debate board, but the rules about courtesy apply here as well.
As for the column you link to, I doubt very much that illegal immigrants can claim the Earned Income Tax Credit. To claim it you have to provide valid social security numbers, which the IRS does check with the SS system, for the adult parents and for the dependant children. Aside from that, children still living in Mexico would not be household dependants (i.e.,. living in the household with the filer) and would not have SS numbers. Very few illegal immigrants file income tax returns because they know this, even though their employers - who don't double check the SS numbers they provide or ignore the letters from the SS system saying the number is not valid - will withhold income tax and SS and Medicare taxes from their paychecks if they pay them more or less legally (that is, not under the table and in cash). And the IRS is currently in a big crackdown and audit of all EITC returns, holding up refunds for anywhere from 6 months to 2 years or more.
I don't know about subsidized housing, but that too should (if it doesn't) require various documents showing legal residency status.
But the bottom line is that this is a problem our government is not addressing and won't address. And if Congress somehow manages to pass a law either making illegal residency a felony or ordering the expulsion of all illegal residents, Bush will either veto it (which I doubt) or do one of his cute little signing statements. Either way, it won't be enforced. Big and small business does not want any laws that will deprive them of cheap workers who can't fight back when they are cheated or mistreated.
The current quotas and processing time for skilled workers - workers who have education and specific skills and who have employers who have guaranteed they will hire them (H-1B status) - are such that the wait time is 2-3 years. Bill Gates was complaining about just this recently. And, those workers, once they are approved and get here, cannot leave that employer under any circumstances and take a different job in the U.S. They must either take whatever changes in job conditions the employer gives or leave the U.S.
As for illegal workers, they are in the same bind. If they get a job, it will be with sub-standard pay and benefits (if there are any benefits they can actually use, i.e., health care), and if they don't take whatever the employer hands out, they either lose the job or get turned over to the INS.
Even when someone can get an immigrant visa, all of the laws and rules favor the employer and the worker, skilled or non-skilled, has few rights and little protection. Again, the laws and enforcement of them favor the employer. Why do you think that is?
Again, the issue is with the employers. If our laws (and Congressional funding) allowed the INS to seriously crack down on the employers, this problem would be resolved within a year or two. But the focus right now is on going after the illegal workers, not the people who employ the illegal workers. Why do you think that is?
And, finally, I can't for the life of me see how all of these posts about immigration and immigration laws relate to a British music producer bringing out a Spanish version of the national anthem.
I think these posts have ended up on the wrong thread... maybe they should have gone under my original post about the immigrants staging the boycott???
Ginny, once again you are right...
And most Mexicans aren't wanting Citizenship.. They want to come here make things better for their families and then go home.. To become a Citizen here they have to/are demanded to renounce their own countries... Which most people are raised to take pride in who they are and take pride in where they come from and we are demanding that they deny themselves.. Bet a few of the ladies on here wouldn't go for that.... Having to deny they are American's..
It is easy to sit in our nice houses, preparing our well balanced meals, with jobs that have to follow legal practices or be sewed... and say they should just go home... That is what they said/say about the African American's after we weren't aloud to own them any more... Can't own ya, don't want ya........
I knew that my remarks sounded insulting which is why I apologized in advance. I didn't want Bobbie to be personally offended- I was only referring to her argument.
"...bleeding hearts like mine are the ones that gave you the very freedoms you have.."
Actually the hearts that gave me the freedoms I have were those belonging to soldiers who had the courage to fight for our country and they belonged to those who stood up against unjust laws and got them changed. As I said, your argument does not justify allowing the illegal immigrants to get away with breaking the law because the law is too difficult to obey. It only justifies the need for a change in the law. Those are two very different things.
Bobbie, I just think you complicate the matter with all of your references to history and comparing the illegal immigration issue today with all the other civil rights issues of the past. To me it is as plain and simple as the nose on my face: anyone entering another country should have the consideration for that country to follow its laws. If the laws are unjust, then they should be changed. By the same token, no one has the right to break the law simply because they feel it is unjust.
You seem to think that the U.S. is a bad country and you are ashamed of it. If that is so, then we will never agree on the current illegal immigration problem. To me it is a matter of patriotism and respect for the lives that have been sacrificed in the name of our country.
This is a problem that is bigger than we can solve on this here little debate board. As Adena and Ginny said, this conversation probably belongs on the other thread. I haven't been following the other thread because I think I allow this issue to get me into a bad mood...  so before I offend anyone else, I should take a break... ;)
Lisa...Just wanted to say that you didn't offend me, I think more on the lines as you, I'm just not good at debating. I was just answering Ginny's question about how things got started here. I thought it was just where both threads were started at one time, they just kind of got confused and combined. Didn't bother me at all...
It doesn't ever really bother me when threads stray, that tends to happen, and I don't think it is really a big deal.
I don't know the big deal about posts going a little off the topic either. When you debate one topic, usually many more topics come into play as to why you feel the way you do. I think it is only natural that they might go in a new direction and don't understand the problem either??
Lisa, I agree that the history only complicates it. Illegal aliens and civil rights
are two different things.
LOL, oops, that reference was to the other topic I posted on yesterday. LOL But in any case, I still agree!
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