I'm going to let my ignorance shine here...
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): I'm going to let my ignorance shine here...
But, I was wondering...
Do we, as Americans and those in countries with the least amount of impoverished people, put enough effort into population control?
It seems to me that we are trying to feed needy children in third world countries, but are we doing enough to supply them with the knowledge of birth control? Would it be cheaper to give a woman a form of birth control than it would be to doctor and feed her children?
I've heard of some tribes actually *wearing* the birth control pills because they didn't want to swallow them. Maybe it's a culture difference.
Is there enough education being spread about population control and the idea that, if you can't afford them, don't have them?
Okay, throw tomatoes at me now...
No tomatoes but a small piece of information. In many nations using birth control is against their culture or religion. When we go to Honduras on mission trips we are not allowed to give birth control pills for birth control. The majority religion, I think and anybody please forgive me if I'm wrong, is Catholicism and the local priests will allow us to preach the gospel and supply medical asistance but will not allow us to violate that aspect. We do carry some birth control pills and can give them for cramping or hormonal issues for up to 6 months. But we have to sign an agreement stating that we are not giving them for birth control.
Sometimes though I see some poor woman that is 25, looks 45, with a gaggle of kids around her and I want to go slip a year's worth of birth control pills. But I figure that her husband would eventually find out and beat her so I don't. Or the local religious leaders would find out and ban us or flog her. So I don't. It's hard.
Well, it's a huge complicated issue. There's the financial side of it. Most people in 3rd world countries can't afford birth control, even condoms. Secondly, it does go against most religious or cultural dictates of 3rd world countries. Central and South America are overwhelmingly Catholic and therefore typically opposed to bc. In Africa there have been huge, expensive education plans and initiatives to increase use of condoms due to the AIDS epidemic there. Culturally the men won't go for it and they also refuse to be monogamous even in marriage. From my work in Central America I find the families to be no more that 4 kids, usually more like 2-3 similar to the US. Part of the reason too is poor prenatal care and a high infant mortality rate though.
I would hesitate for too much population control b/c then you end up with a situation like China which is terrible. Also, in third world countries (going from my 3 trips to Nicaragua) it's not at all an "if you can't afford them, don't have them" issue. There is nothing more to afford really. It doesn't cost that much more to feed kids, most clothes are hand-me-downs. There's no education to afford, the poorer families sleep in one room in a cardboard house with a dirt floor, and the extra hands actually help out with the work load.
It really is a huge issue. From my personal experiences, I am more concerned about the huge lack of education and illiteracy which creates so many barriers, than population control.
I can see your points and Pam, I too am discouraged at the lack of education period.
Maybe that's my point...since literacy is so low in these countries, they are reliant upon information that is handed down century after century. There couldn't possibly be much progress in those countries because of that. Not to mention, information can be easily misconstrued like a game of "telephone".
The big problem is the Roman Cathlic prohibition against anything but natural birth control (abstaining at certain times). In fact, there was a plea to the Vatican to allow the use of condoms in Africa to stop the spread of AIDS. It was of course denied.
I will say no more.
Ame
I know that I have hit some sore spots lately and I will not go into further detail about that but I am going to open my mouth once again so here goes.
I am all for helping the needy but how about helping the needy of our home country first? There are kids in this country starving, people without homes, people who can not read, and a lack of medical care to those in desperate need of it.
As for birth control, you can't force people to take what they feel is wrong. I recall seeing a special on T.V. with Prince Harry where a 9 month old infant from Africa, If I'm not mistaken, was raped because a witch doctor in the village told the men that if they have sex with a virgin that they can cure themselves of AIDS. That breaks my heart.
Well, we have welfare (food stamps), medicaid, medicare, SSI/disability and a billion other federally funded programs in the US. They are mismanaged and abused, but they do exist. We have plenty of job opportunities, laws against child labor, free education, etc. Our "poor" can't hold a candle to the poor in third world countries.
This is from a blog called Shots Across the Bow
Poverty American Style
As part of life in the Navy, I've travelled all over the world, seeing many of it's most beautiful places. I've also seen some of the worst slums as well. Seaports are rarely in the high rent district (except in Monaco) and most times the area right off the docks is the worst section of the city.
We pulled into Rio de Janeiro on our way to the West Coast after a 6 month Med run. The beaches were beautiful, even though it was December and a little chilly. But what I remember most was seeing a cardboard shanty town on the outskirts of Rio on the way to Ipanema. An entire hillside was covered with shacks made of cardboard, pieces of tin, cloth, whatever was available. No sanitation, no electricity, no medical care, no telephones, no cars, no TV's. Just a shack made out of garbage.
That's real poverty.
Then there's poverty, American Style. Via Bill Hobbs comes this report:
* Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
* Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
* Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
* The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
* Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
* Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.
There's something wrong with our definition of poverty when the majority of poor people own a car, 2 TV's, and a VCR or DVD player.
And it isn't just material goods that set poverty, American Style apart from the world. The report goes on to say that 70% of families classified as poor were able to meet all essential expenses last year, including medical care.
Yes, medical care. While some 14% said that they had been unable to get treatment because they lacked insurance, that leaves 86% of the poor that were able to get and pay for essential medical care.
So let's look at the numbers a bit. 35 million people were classified as poor in the last census. But 70% of those were able to meet ALL essential expenses including medical care, probably owned a car, had 2 or more televisions, a VCR or DVD player and lived in decent housing. And most of that 70% actually owned their homes.
They aren't poor.
Now then, that leaves about 10 million who are less well off, or about 3.8% of the population. While their standard of living is certainly higher than that of a guy living in a cardboard shack, these are the poor that really require our help. By targetting our efforts directly at those who are worst off, we stand a good chance of actually eliminating real poverty in America. But as long as we continue to dilute our efforts by utilizing a patently ridiculous definition of poverty, we'll never make significant headway.
Me again:
When I see how a family of 5 literally (and I have pictures I can share) lives in a cardboard and plywood shack with a dirt floor and chickens running through the house, a roof of corrugated metal held on by large rocks and spare tires placed on top, no running water, an outhouse, etc. in Nicaragua and compare that to most family who get food stamps and Medicaid and have TVs, VCRs, at least 1 car, cable, internet, and junk food it just doesn't compare.
I completely understand your point of view, believe me I do. My father overcame poverty when he immigrated to this country over 50 years ago. He had to stop going to school to help support his family at the young age of 9. He came from a very large Catholic family. He has 20 brothers and sisters. I think people should be responsible and have children that they can afford to feed, clothe, and educate. As well as providing the necessary emotional stability a child needs in order to develop into a productive and self sufficient adult.
I have a friend who works full-time, uses public transportation, but doesn't qualify for Medicaid because she makes too much money. If she were to lose her job she would be homeless. She is a responsible adult trying to make a life for herself, not the slightest bit extravagant. Her job does not offer health insurance but her tax dollars help to pay for other people to seek medical care even people who are not citizens of this country are offered this coverage. That truly upsets me. On a personal note, my oldest daughter was a preemie and we had good health insurance at the time but we still had a balance of $20,000 to pay off. The state we lived in at the time offered financial aid to families whose medical bills met a certain percentage of their income. We fell short by a mere $500.00 of meeting that criterion. We struggled and paid off our debt. It’s just unfortunate that a person in this country has to be destitute in order to receive some financial aid that their hard earned tax dollars contributes too.
Working in healthcare for as long as I did, it's sad to see people using the emergency department as their private physician but what choice do they have? It's the way the system is set up. Fraud happens on all levels! There have been instances where multiple people have used the same Medicaid card in order to obtain “free” medical care and then there are the doctors who file fraudulent claims. Some people are going without medicine because they can not afford to purchase it but we can ship medicine to other countries.
More has to be done about educating people about birth control and STDs. I won’t argue that point at all. Education needs to be encouraged especially in countries where women are considered as property rather than as human beings but we need to do more here too as well.
Our system is just soooooo flawed. I am just saying that we should prioritize fixing our flawed system here at home. I applaud the countless volunteers that generously donate their time to help others. I just think we need to concentrate on making it work here for everyone.
Ditto Pam. I saw a lot in Maypen, Jamaica. So sad... kids without shoes, a home, or much food.
I see kids right here in my homestate without a home, much food or shoes. I know this isn't the main topic, but I think that we need to focus some more on our own citizens before we try to save the world.
We have kids here in the USA that go to bed hungry every night. We need to spend the resources to figure out how to improve the programs that we have in place. Otherwise, they aren't going to help the people they are intended for.
I couldn't agree with you more! Well said.
Oh Breann....you hit the nail on the head!!!!! I completely agree.
Why can't we do both simultaneously?
EEK!!!!!
Who is "our own"? We, as humans, belong to each other. Breann/Kiki/Deanna, no offense, but this closed minded idea of "taking care of our own" actually hurts us. With the world changing and other countries actually owning a lot of American land, ports, blue chip companies, we ARE actually taking care of OUR OWN by going into other countries and helping them. We do not benefit by just helping U.S. citizens. You would be surprised how much America relies on other countries and the health of other nations.
It's easy to believe in what you see...what I've seen here doesn't even (in the slightest) begin to compare to other places in this world.
And, yes, Pam...I agree...we CAN do both.
I'm going to go with Breann and the others, I'm tired of American money and supplies going to help everyone else when we have so many in need here. Just as I'm tired of our troops playing police man in other countries, and I'm tired of our jobs being outsourced. I don't think it's closed minded at all... we're not the only wealthy country in the world, but we've been abused as Good Ol' Uncle Sam, the one who gives all the handouts. While I have no doubt that there is suffering beyond anything we can imagine in other countries, and would love to help everyone, I'm sick of our country being expected to take on everyone's problems, and get slapped in the face in return.
Ohhhh myyyy....I don't live in a big city and the impoverished children that I worked with for 7 years (and still work with) would BLOW YOUR MIND. Children with ONE pair of clothes, for all seasons;ONE pair of shoes for ALL seasons; crying when they can't eat breakfast at school because they're lazy loser parent didn't get up in time for the bus and now they have missed ANOTHER meal and I sneak them food from my drawer;children who have grabbed me like it was their last minute on Earth when they see their alcoholic mom walk in the door saying "please don't make me go with her, please"....the stories I could tell go on and on.
How are we helping these children? This is just one example of "our own" that needs to be helped. I have experienced so much poverty where I live that I would have never known existed if it weren't for my job.
Absolutely there are places where things are worse than in the US, but does that lessen the problems here?
IMO, wWe start with "our own" and when they're cared for then we can take on the rest of the world. Would you feed and clothe your neighbor's child and let your own wear rags and eat the crumbs? I don't think so and that's exactly what we (the US) does IMO. The inequity is overwhelming in this country.
I totally agree with Crystal. We've been abused for our wealth and everyone still hates us.
Edited
Hhhhmmm...free education, free transportation, free health insurance, free food...I could go on and on about our American programs.
Of course my instincts would tell me to take care of my children before others, but just because we live in the same country doesn't mean that another country isn't also our neighbor.
And, yes, the idea that the U.S. should just take care of its own citizens is close minded. Very.
What do we do when we need oil from the Brazilians and oh, I don't know, their economy was hurt because we ignored their pleas for help with an epidemic?
We, as humans, need each other. We belong to each other.
Besides...kids are kids are kids...whether or not they are U.S. citizens shouldn't matter.
I'm not going to get on a high horse here, but I just want to encourage people here to even do a search online to see pictures of what's happening elsewhere. Yes, it is worse than the U.S. Much worse.
Not everyone is entitled to those free programs that should be Heidi. That's the issue I have.
To add to Kiki's statement... many abuse those programs, but many more who are just above the limit can't use them, but still live in poverty. You know how they say you can't be a good mother unless you take care of yourself first? Well, the same could apply to our country, we can't take care of the world until we take care of ourselves.
Yes Kikiand Crystal!!! You're so right!!! Those free programs are for a certain portion of the population. I totally agree.
I'm not at all saying that the US shouldn't help other countries. I'm saying take care of HERE first. When that work is done, move on to others.
It's the basic law of charity.
There are terrible, terrible atrocities in other countries, no doubt. But if we are so wonderful and have so many great "free" things for everyone here, then why do we still even remotely see the poverty and inequity that we have in America? Have you seen the way people live here Heidi? You live in a bigger city than I do, so I'm sure you have. Have you been in their homes? Have you seen their children? Have you seen the children who are trapped by their loser parents and have no one to take care of them and can't be taken away from the home because there's supposedly not enough "evidence"? That's my life and it's awful. If we have it so good here then all of that shouldn't ever be seen IMO.
I've never seen or heard of a group of "missionaries" taking food, clothes, toys, and meds to the projects in this country and just handing it out. We supposedly have "programs" for that, but look around. Nothing's changing.
I've never seen or heard of a group of "missionaries" taking food, clothes, toys, and meds to the projects in this country and just handing it out. We supposedly have "programs" for that, but look around. Nothing's changing.
Happens all of the time. We take of group of youth every spring to do just that. We'll be going Easter weekend to inner city Fort Worth, TX as we have done for the past 8 years. The church that we work with is devoted solely to working with the homeless (primarily) and impoverished. They have free legal, dental, and medical clinics, provide an address for homeless to get their SS and welfare checks, have free meals 7 days a week, medicine, feminine hygiene supplies, showers, washers/dryers, etc. Just because you haven't seen it out there doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In my denomination we have foreign missionaries and "home" missionaries, not to mention local churches , agencies, and other individual who are doing this sort of thing. It is very widespread. We have also done similar projects in our hometown, but it is not nearly as efficient and organized as Beautiful Feet Ministries in Ft. Worth. They have it down to a science.
I really don't know much about it all and some of you would probably enlighten me. I know that the US is one of the countries if not the most that does most charitable work around the world.
But is also true that some of the foreign polices that were used in other countries allegedly to help them (to install democracy for example) have had the complete opposite intention, like the overthrow of a perfectly democratically elected government that conflited with US economic policies (i can think of the famous example of Chile and the assasination of president Salvador Allende and then imposing the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet).
I'l leave it like that. But i think that our governments are doing a lot that is hiding their real intentions and not because we see a child without shoes outside our streets and then hear our politicians say "we help too much and nobody helps us!" then it means is true.
Maria,
Just as I feel that we should be taking care of our own poverty problems, I feel we should stay out of the political problems of other countries. (Iraq, anyone?) For example, I had NO idea that we were in Haiti in the mid-1990s to step in when there was a civil war, until a friend who was there told me about it, and the horrors he saw, the people he killed. His PTSD comes as much from that experience (one of his first in the Army) as it does from Iraq tours. My only question to him was "What were we doing there??" Apparently, trying to put an end to their fighting, but we did a lot of harm along with the good, and it makes no sense to me. No one steps in to help with our gang problems, and I'm willing to bet no one would step in if another civil war broke out here. Then there is last year's hurricanes, it took a while before anyone offered help, (and Chavez was the first, even though he and our administration are sworn enemies). We often butt our noses in where they don't belong, and when we do humanitarian aid for countries, we're constantly criticized for it being too little, too much, not fast enough, etc.
Well said Crystal.
Pam - That's great to hear and I'm sorry if I did not have my facts straight. A dear friend of mine and a pastor's wife in a large Methodist church in my hometown had this discussion with me several months back. She said that they were not allowed to fund "secular" projects in the states that are getting gov't funding, or they would not get any $ from the Methodist Church. "Poor people" are gov't funded so to speak because they are receiving assistance. They use their $ for overseas missions only as a result. Maybe that's just a Methodist thing. I assumed that was across the board, and my friend led me to believe that.
Okay, so it happens. That's terrific. But let's just say, do people really hear about that? From my point of view, it's always about going somewhere outside of the country to help someone.
I gotta tell you the reason why you guys are "sick of hearing about what's being done overseas" is because there's a colossal need. Just helping our own until there is no more help to be needed....??? Let's make our great America even greater and your poor country even more poor.
If you lived in these "needy" countries...wanna know what news stories you'd be tired of hearing?
A tribe in Africa was overtaken by rebels and a mother was raped. Then...her son was forced to rape his own mother at gunpoint.
Kids on the Ivory Coast are watching their parents die with their own eyes and are left alone and abandoned. Literally. There are more than 3 million orphans in Africa alone. Malaria, AIDS, TB runs rampant.
And, when problems happen overseas, they're not just THEIR problems. They're ours too. Yup, that bird flu is just going to stay over that pond. Yup.
And...just to add...
My mother was a pioneer on helping the homeless in our own town. We made lunches for the people who slept under bridges...we started this when I was only 9. She ended up being homeless herself for 3 years due to her schizophrenia. She is on Medicaid and Medicare and I THANK GOD for these programs. It's what kept her alive.
Every time I go to a country that is poorer than us...I thank God every time I come back.
And, Pam, I couldn't agree more and I thank God for people like you.
Heidi-Every time I go to a country (and no it's not Third World countries that I visit), I DO NOT thank God when I come back. That's the difference between you and me. Instead I see all the things that are working for the good of the citizens in that country and I wonder why it's so difficult for us to get there.
I'm glad there are programs as well, but the reform needed for them is outstanding.
You obviously are not interested in seeing the other point of view and are going to have a sarcastic tone to anyone who disagrees with you. So be it.
A tribe in Africa was overtaken by rebels and a mother was raped. Then...her son was forced to rape his own mother at gunpoint.
Kids on the Ivory Coast are watching their parents die with their own eyes and are left alone and abandoned. Literally. There are more than 3 million orphans in Africa alone. Malaria, AIDS, TB runs rampant.
And most of these people keep having children because their religion or culture does not support birth control...so we should just keep on pouring tax dollars into what basically - I know this sounds harsh but it's true - is a lost cause?
Very good point Colette.
Heidi - I apologize for my last statement sounding so rude. I read this in a hurry this morning, which I shouldn't have done in the first place, and things have been crazy around here with illness and my monthly hormones. We'll just have to disagree on this one  Again, I'm sorry.
One thing I think we CAN agree on is education. I fear our money is going towards a reaction of a problem, not proaction. They need education about everything you can think of...
What we take for granted...reading, knowing what causes diseases and how we can prevent them, how to live in a non-violent way (not based on religion).
That's where the problems are...so, no offense taken. I'm sure we can at least agree on that?
Yes, I do agree and you statement about $ for education as a reaction is completely true. The people in power do NOT get it.
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