Immigration Rallies
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Immigration Rallies
National Immigration Rallies Against New Legislation
Immigration rally in L.A. one of city's largest -- ever
The key word here is ILLEGAL.
This entire immigration bill has been blown way out of proportion. We LOVE that people want to come to the U.S. and make a better life. We WANT people to stay here a keep contributing to the workforce. But why is it so much to ask that they do it LEGALLY??!!
Many many people have utilized the processes that have been set up through which they can live and work here legally and even eventually become recognized as U.S. citizens. To give illegal immigrants a free pass is an insult to the people who have taken the pains to go through the legal process and do it the right way.
If I had a complaint about this bill, it would be that it only goes half way to getting laws reformed. The legal immigration process, as it exists today, is admittedly tedious, complicated, and loaded with red tape. It needs to be streamlined and simplified. If it were, then more people would actually take the legal route instead.
If the United States really wanted to control illegal workers, it would crack down on the employers. In most of the restaurants in Center City Philadelphia, at least half of the kitchen staff are illegals. I read an article recently that said that 15% of the workers in the construction industry are illegals.
My bosses do something called workers' comp subrogation law. The way it works is that if a worker is injured on the job and it is someone else's fault (a truck driver rear-ended at a traffic light, for example), either the truck driver sues the other driver or we sue on the truck driver's behalf, and the worker's comp insurance carrier gets reimbursed for the money it laid out as a result of the accident. In the course of our work, we recently came across a phenomena called "leased workers", which is a little different from the usual "temp worker" situation. What it is, is a company that provides temporary workers on a day-to-day basis, for assembly jobs or other kinds of work that doesn't require a lot of training. The "leasing" company provides transportation, is paid so much an hour for each leased worker, and pays the workers. The employer doesn't know or care if the leasing company pays benefits or payroll taxes. The contract with the leasing company says the leasing company is supposed to check to be sure all of the workers are legal. But every case that has come across my desk, the workers are Asian or Hispanic, and almost always illegals. But the employer is off the hook because of their contract with the leasing agency. Walmrt got into a lot of trouble last year because it turned out that a lot of their cleaning staff and security people were temp workers and illegals - and they blamed the temp agency, saying Walmart wasn't responsible, it was the temp agency's responsibility to check IDs. If Walmart and construction companies (and general contractors, who hire the subcontractors who are the people usually hiring the illegals) had to pay serious per-day fines fo every illegal on the job they wouldn't risk it. I know my son and his wife bought a new home in a 120+ house development a couple of years ago - Greg commented that when they were inspecting their house during construction, more than half of the people working on it didn't speak English. I know not speaking English doesn't mean the person is illegal, but it is a good clue.
If employers were fined an amount equivalent to the amount they paid the illegal worker for each illegal worker found in their shop or worksite when inspected, with increasing fines for repeat offenses, the number of illegal workers would drop dramatically.
A few years ago, when an employer sent the W-4 to Social Security (the form you fill out for the IRS and Social Security when you start a job), if the number was unknown or the number and name didn't match, SS would send the employer a notice - and the employer would know they are employing an illegal worker. But an administrative order was issued to stop SS from sending out those notices.
My opinion - these immigration bills will go nowhere. They are entirely too punitive in many ways - imagine requiring churches and charitable agencies to check IDs before helping someone. The bishops of RC churches in several areas have already said they won't do it - and is the INS going to go around arresting a bunch of priests and nuns and Catholic social service workers and volunteers? Not on a bet! And in other ways the bills proposed by the Bush administration are too generous in allowing illegals to stay and work for 6-12 years as suddenly legal guest workers, with no serious penalty, and not going after the employers. These bills are a political ploy because the conservatives have made immigration a hot-button issue. This bill passed the House, but I doubt very much it will pass the Senate. When the dust settles, the politicians will say - well, we tried, but the liberals stopped us. If they really wanted to pass an immigration bill they would go after the employers, not the charitable services, and start arresting or slapping serious fines on employers, and evaluate the whole process of guest workers (making them legal guest workers, not illegals) by cutting down on the red tape in many ways. Until those things are in an immigration bill, I can't believe they are serious about it.
You can build all the fences you want to, but until there is a huge increase in the budget for the border patrol, and the fence runs a significant distance up the California coastline and along the Texas coastline, it would make much difference (except in the amount of money spent to build the fence). The coyotes (people who bring the illegals across the border) will just put them in boats, as is done now with Asian illegal immigrants and as Haitians and Cubans do. And are we going to establish a no-cross line, with machine guns to shoot down people crossing the restricted area - like they did with the Berlin Wall? Imagine what will happen the first time a family with children is shot down!
Your comment, Lisa, that the proposals are a slap in the face to people who have come here legall, by making it possible for illegals to have the same benefits without going through the legal process, is right on the money. And, given that we have quotas, it would mean that people who are already on the waiting lists trying to come here legally would have to wait even longer if we suddenly "legalize" thousands and thousands of people here illegally.
Well put, Ginny. The unfortunate reality is the illegals in this country do a lot of the menial jobs that most Americans won't do, at least not for such a low pay. Until we crack down on that, we will continue to have this problem. As for border patrol, my BIL is a Coast Guardsmen, stationed in FL. They can only patrol so much, and people find more and more ways to get around them. They DO have weapons, but can't use lethal force with those trying to get to our shores. Of course, there is a huge area of border that is not water, and we cannot seem to properly control that either. People get upset when civilians form volunteer groups to patrol, but what are we going to do? Shall we form a human fence along all borders? Allow border patrol to use lethal force at all times? We catch them, turn them around, and the minute they are out of our country they are trying to get back in.
I am confused about this bill that the protests are centered around. It has been in the House since December 6, 2005, and was passed by the House on December 16 and on to the Senate on the 17th. It is in the Senate Judiciary Committee right now, and it has been there since January 27, as far as I can tell.
All congressional actions
So, why is this getting so much attention now? Why are all the immigrants, legal and not, getting all worked up about it when it has been in congress for so long already?
Who is stirring up the pot?
By the way, it does provide for more stringent punishment for employers of illegals.
Your link has expired, Lisa. Do you know the number or sponsor of the House bill you are referring to?
I think I found it. HR 4447, original sponsor James Sensenbrenner. Is this the bill you mean? The site link lets you search for specific legislation as well as using general search terms. The "CRS Summary" gives a summary of the bill.
Oh, shucks.... Well, yes, Sensenbrenner is the orig sponsor, but the # doesn't sound right. Lemme look around...
Okay, well, I found the answer to my question anyway... The senate is scheduled to begin debating this bill on Tuesday, which is probably why the demonstrations were this weekend. I was just questioning the timing of it all.
I found the web page where I read the bill #. It's 4437, and in the story I read, Barbara Boxer Blasted the Bill.
Apparently you can't link to search results on this website http://thomas.loc.gov/ so just go there and look under Browse Bill By Sponsor, find Representative Sensenbrenner, click go, and then find bill 4437.
I don't know how I feel about this issue. I know so many illegal folks and they tell me that going through the proper channels takes years because so many want to come from Mexico. Also they say public (free) education in Mexico only goes through 6th grade and after that you have to pay for it like college. Coming here they can attend free school longer.
Also companies that I've worked for in the past (not currently) depend on these folks to do jobs. My last job there were lots of illegals (country club). In the interview process they gave us their SS# and only after we hired them could we call SSA to see if the number was a match. If it wasn't, you couldn't fire someone for being illegal. You couldn't use it as a screening tool in the interview process and you couldn't use it as a reason for termination because that was against the law.
So you go to them and say you need a new SS# and they bring you another one and you call SSA and they say it's not a match and then you go back to the employee and this went on and on. We didn't want to fire them even if we could because no American citizen was walking through the door applying for the same job. Once a year SSA sent us a list of all our employees who didn't have good SS#s and we'd just say, Oh look at that and ask the employees again for a new number.
I'm bothered by the impact of illegal aliens on our hospitals and schools. These folks know not to sign up for the company's insurance. Even though it's free because they are employees, it's really not, of course, because you have to pay co-pays and deductibles. Most illegal aliens won't pay any medical. If they have insurance they have trouble getting indigent medical services for free. They also don't want to be "in the system" again with their fake SS#s although I have had a couple sign up for the 401(k) plan. When they quit, they had no idea they got that money back (the balance was too low for us to maintain the account). They had no idea what it was. Luckily it was easy to find them through the network of illegals and return their 401(k)s to them. I wonder what that did to the real people of their fake SS#s.
It's like these people are volunteer slaves. They watch our kids, clean our houses, mow our lawns, build our houses and roads, work in our restaurants - they cover every low level job out there. We even have illegals in our school systems working as teachers. They are hired as aides because they are bi-lingual and then given their own class to teach like they are regular teachers and the only education they have is high school.
Course I'm in Texas where we are a majority minority state. I remember being in North Georgia at a fast food place and being shocked that actually American teenagers worked there - white and black. Here ours are staffed solely by Hispanics, many of whom are illegal. Our non-Hispanic American citizen teens have trouble finding work because of this. Sometimes, though it boosts them up on the food chain a bit automatically and you have teens working in doctor offices and vet offices and mail rooms of law firms when before that might have gone to college kids.
So, I'm reading that some of our elected officials don't know what to think either. Part of the problem is the Mexican govt encourages their people to come here and work and send money back to relatives. That's part of the problem. Maybe we should take this up with Vicente Fox. Or have we already?
Send them back. Punish anyone who employs criminaliens. As far as they do jobs no one else will, I think that's a crock. What a slap in the face to all of the LEGAL immigrants that followed the rules and waited in line for their chance.
I'm sitting on the fence with Mommmie.  I've lived 3 years in TX and then 6 yrs. in MO which has a surprisingly large Latino population due to Butterball and Tyson factory work and garden nurseries. I taught ESL to these people, many illegal, and have heard their stories. So many of them are here seeking political refuge or have been raped and brutalized in their own country. I tend to think that the businesses should be punished and made to pay fines, but I think we need to come up with a better system for processing them and I tend to lean toward letting the ones here stay, but I really don't know. It is such a confusing issue. I would say "send 'em back," but now that I have faces to go with names...Noa, Zoila, Carlos...I just can't say that anymore.
Illegal is illegal. How can anyone say one illegal activity shouldn't be punished but another should?? No one is saying these people can't come to this country, but it needs to be done the legal way.
So why don't they seek refuge somewhere else? Why do they come to us? Because we let them. I agree that it's a slap in the face to those who came here legally. For example, I was getting a pedicure, and talking to the lady about their shop. She runs it with her husband, they've been in American 10 years, both born in Vietnam. I told her I was impressed by the strength it must take to leave your country (they have children, all were born here) to seek a better life, not knowing the language or anything. She said they came here, learned the language, went to school, and became citizens. Sadly, she probably knows more about our country, from studying for the exam, than most of us do. Then again, she owns her own business, drives a Lexus, and has a comfortable life. I know a soldier who came from Costa Rica, and became a citizen, and another from Jamaica. These people did what was asked of them, and worked hard to become LEGAL in America, embraced our culture, and made a life for themselves here. Everyone else should do the same, or go back to their own country. If I woke up tomorrow and decided I didn't want to be American, I would have to follow another countries rules to become a citizen there, and most places won't bend over backwards to teach you the language, etc, like the US will. My BIGGEST pet peeve?? People who have lived here for decades, and speak no English. Why don't you bother to learn the language? Why should *I* have to learn another language to accomodate you?
I don't recall who said about the Mexican government encouraging illegal immigrants but that is just not true. Vicente Fox did mention once that those who have been living there should be given legal rights such as health care and access to other basic services, but he didn't say, hey amigos! go to Gringolandia to work because there ain't no work for you here!
And who is going to do all those manual jobs US citizens are not doing. IMO many, many corporations are benefitting from the cheap labour these illegal immigrants are offering.
And another thing, many of the reasons they are leaving their countries(because they can't make a living there) is because of the economic policies that are going around the world these days, infamously brought by the Reagan and Thatcher government of the 1980's (and presently encouraged in a big way by GW Bush).
All this is a lot more complicated than i can explain. It's not the "mojados" fault, of the US citizens' but the governments' of this world that are more preocuppied about making money rather than providing the basics for those less fortunate around the globe. And yes, there is plenty to go around.
Vicente Fox did mention once that those who have been living there should be given legal rights such as health care and access to other basic services, but he didn't say, hey amigos! go to Gringolandia to work because there ain't no work for you here!
Why should they be given legal rights? They broke into this country. They ignored our laws. So we should just welcome them with open arms? I know most of them are coming from a life that really s*cked, but that does not make it ok. I do not want to pay for criminals to be here.
Some of them have been in your for many years providing cheap labour so that US citizens have cheap produce in their tables. This fact, has helped the US economy to grow in a big way so i don't buy that the US has not benefitted from these illegal immigrants. And not all of them are criminals.
Every single person who entered this country illegally is a criminal.
That's very harsh! Some of the stories they carry around, of desperation and poverty make them go to the extremes of trying to go to other countries to make a better living for their families.
I hadn't really been following, but the high school students in houston have taken to protesting. I quite honestly am not sure how I feel. I had a GS that I am sure had illegal parents. I had to always make sure all my t's were crossed with paperwork because they did not have insurance. With GS you have to have a SS#, I was given 2 different ones at different times. I had to let her sell cookies, etc. But knew if there was an issue it would be ugly.
On the news I saw a bus drop off a large group to protest. All i could think is that is MY tax paper school bus, what are yall doing?
Having illegals who don't pay into the system hurt those who need it.
I get a little grumpy when I go to my fav restruant and the kitchen people can't understand english (i go to this great whole in the wall place). I don't think I would go to another country without at least an attempt to learn their language. But this is an issue with illegal and legal.
Who else is coming here illegally besides mexicans? And if it isn't anyone else, why not?
It may be harsh but it's true. Every person who comes here illegally should be sent back immediately. It's not fair to all of the people who are following OUR LAWS and trying to become citizens the legal way and it's not fair to the taxpayers of the United States. There's desperation and poverty everywhere. That does not make it ok to come over here illegally.
They are not only Mexicans, they are also people from Central America and South America. And i think they'd be happy to stay in their countries if only they could. If any of us were in the desperate situations these people are in i think we'd think differently. These people are trying give their families a better life so they go to desperate measures to do it. I thank God that none of the ladies (or me) of this board are in that situation because i don't know how you'd feel.
It's a sad situation in some of these countries, I'll agree with you on that, but it still does not make it ok to come over here without following the proper procedures.
First of all, most illegal aliens do pay into our system. In Missouri, they still had SS and taxes taken from their checks since most of them do have a SSN (legal or not), so they are paying for their kids to go to school, get healthcare, etc. Also, all of the aliens/immigrants who worked in the nurseries were paid much less than minimum wage because, as I learned, almost any work with plants is considered "migrant work" and you don't have to pay migrant workers minimum wage. These were truly jobs that no American would take, esp. since an American could make more money by sitting on his/her backside and collecting welfare and food stamps. This same aliens/immigrants would work 12 hours a day doing hard physical labor, live in cramped apts. together that were little more than slums, send almost all of their money "back home" to their children whom they had left behind in an attempt to make a better life, and then come to learn English for 2 hours a night two nights a week.
Why don't many of them speak English? Well, most of them have less than an 8th grade education. They have already put in a full day's work and then to learn something as cognitively challenging as a second language is very difficult. They try, but they are still very segregated (due to many of the attitudes expressed on this post), so they live in their own Spanish speaking communities where they don't get the opportunity to practice the little bit of English they do learn. It's a no win situation for them in a lot of ways. Many, and maybe even most, of them do try to learn English, but when you put all of the factors together it makes it very hard for them to become fluent in English. None of us could do it if we were dropped in Africa or China with a small group of English speakers, worked all day at a physically demanding job, and had little education. We'd hang with our little English group and talk our familiar language because at the end of the day it is just so much easier.
Also, I would even wager than most of the immigrants AREN'T Mexican or at least it is 50/50. Maria is right that many of them of from Central and South American. In MO most of the people I taught ESL to were from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras. And Central Americans and Mexicans don't get along and hate being all called "Mexicans." They prefer the term Latino. Once you get to know them you can even tell by looking at them if they are from Mexico or further south in Central America. Mexicans are taller and those from the other countries tend to be short, squat, and short have Mayan features.
It is a hard issue, but I don't think it is merely black and white at all. There are a lot of grey areas when we are talking about fellow human beings with the purest of motives.
Well, here is a thought. Instead of just passing out welfare and assistance, make people fill these jobs that no one wants to do. Have jail inmates do those jobs etc etc etc. There are plenty of solutions that could be had. I still say illegal is illegal and they should be dealt with accordingly. I am not saying that people aren't welcome, but follow the law and do it the right way.
Well, I'm going to throw in this thought in response to Pam's last response. We have a group of Mexican's that live here. I worked with most of the children in the school system. They come to our school in Pre-K and Kindy not knowing any English. The oldest child graduated highschool several years ago and now speaks fluent English. There is at least one child in every grade down through pre-K. Yet every new child comes in speaking no English. Why do they not let the older ones who have learned English teach these young ones English so it is easier for them and for the teachers at school? These poor children know absolutely NO english.
And here's the kicker. Even after they learn English, they are forbidden to use it at home or in the restaurant they run (that is their means of living here). They are only allowed to use it at school. So they don't even try. The children are unable to better their skills, the young ones are forced to come to school unable to communicate with anyone, and the adults refuse to learn even basic english so they cannot communicate with anyone about their children, either. And we live in a very small rural area in VA so this extended family is the only Mexicans around the area. So they are not even trying.
I don't know how representative is one family of the Mexican population in th US, but my guess is not very high, and even if many members jump in and say i know another family, and another i don't buy it that in general illegal immmigrants don't want to learn English.
And in that case, i know many, many US persons and others who speak English as a first language who go to live in Mexico and don't bother ot learn a word of Spanish. And is not because of lack of resources -like they can't afford to pay for private Spanish lessons- but because they can't be bothered!
So there, yes it may happen to SOME families across the US, but is not exclusive of illegal immigrants in the US. Immigrants from the US in other countries can also present that particular lack of interest in learning other languages.
I tend to believe more Pam's side of the story, it sounds more real as to what is happening all around the world about immigration. That is my own personal opinion and i don't expect anyone to share it, but i do wonder what would any of the ladies here saying "send'em back" do if they were in their situation?
Another thing, i don't think that following the laws would secure illegal immigrants a place, what are they supposed to do? Not try? Stay in their countries which have been ruined by corrupt governments (their own or those from more powerful countries)? Should they stay even if simply enough they cannot see a future for their families?
FInally, they day all these illegal immigrants go back, there will be a crisis with production because i don't know how many US citizens will be willing to do such low paid jobs. Powerful countries need cheap labour to keep the market going.
(That's why Japan is thinking about having robots instead of a foreign workforce, because they don't want to deal with the issue of having aliens in their country - of course don't quote me on this but i did read it, not long agoand from a reliable source, here's the link. The Economist won't let you read the article online unless you are subscribed but i found it in another one which refers to the Economist article.)
The future of robots in Japan
"This entire immigration bill has been blown way out of proportion. We LOVE that people want to come to the U.S. and make a better life. We WANT people to stay here a keep contributing to the workforce. But why is it so much to ask that they do it LEGALLY??!!"
This is what started this debate. Can I ask you, do you really think these people would not do it the legal way if they could?
Do you really believe they like living in overcrowed housing, doing insecure jobs -in which in some cases they may even get exploited? Do you think they like to live without proper healthcare? And afraid that "la migra" would come and get them and send them to jail or worse send them back?
It is not too much to ask, to become legal US citizen, if you have say for example a British passport (or any other influential passport), are highly skilled (so many highly skilled people get accepted into other countries because of those skills), and have money to assure your host government that you can support yourself without asking for welfare. Then of course, it's not too much to ask, on the contrary, they should all go through the legal processes (and i am assuming that if they have all these qualities they also have the knowledge to go through all those legal processes).
However, these people are clearly desperate, they can't show solvency, or qualifications, the only thing they have is their mere and utter desperation and the hope for a better life for them and their families. I just agree with Pam, these persons have names, stories, families, children. They love each other and fight for each other. They have also made some good things for your country like supporting the production processes that keeps a good part of the US economy alive. And above all they are not criminals.
No, you take me wrong. I was never saying this one family represented every single Mexican in the United States. I was simply giving an example of what we dealt with with the one family. That's all. And how some have the means of learning the language but choose not to, and also choose to not let the children learn anymore than they have to during the school day. I think that is irresponsible, also.
Breaking the law is still breaking the law. I am sure some people that steal or rob might be doing so out of desperation in their need for money to feed their family etc. However, that doesn't mean they are above the law and can do it!! Everyone has a story. But, our country also has laws and if they don't have to be followed, why have them??
Honestly, I do believe that there are many immigrants who believe that they have a right to be in our country and take advantage of our social programs with absolutely no regard for our laws. That is the attitude displayed by many in these demonstrations.
As I also said, I agree that the process for acquiring legal status is difficult and needs to be fixed. It is the attitude of some illegals and their supporters that really ticks me off.
Lisa, that's it in a nutshell.
This is one of those issues I am still really torn on. I see Pam's side, I see collete's side. I have known the desperate, but I have also known the users. I have seen mexicans treated second class, I have seen them run the show ( I am in TX..lol).
I got a political call yesterday about it.
Do you think any illegal should be immediately deported?
Should infants born in america from two illegals be considered american citizens?
I was going to post all the questions, but they aren't quite coming to me this morning.
The demonstration coverage we are getting on TV doesn't give me warm fuzzies. I try to remind myself that these spokespeople are probably not really representing the mass.
One guy said (15-16) "we have rights too, people just want to keep taking from us until we have nothing. It should be legal to do that." All I could think, well it isn't legal to just pop over here either, but that didn't stop you. And they do have rights, but part of those rights are to follow the laws, right?
I guess part of my ignornace comes from, what exactly does it take to get here legally? when is it okay? How hard is the process? How long does it take?
I have a good friend who is semi engaged to a loser, but he is a Canadian, he works for an oil company here. But his work visa was about to expire, now we have a huge unemployment rate, I personally know of 3-4 people who are qualified (if not much better so) for his job, that are looking for jobs. Why does he get a work visa...GO HOME, GET A JOB THERE! He doesn't want to be a us citizen, he just wants all the benefits here. I think he should be deported!
Also in Houston we deported a guy yesterday who was a sex offender. We can't prosecute because he is illegally here. So they mandated him to leave in jan, and he just didn't. They found him and removed him.
Did anyone see this tonight on 20/20? It's the story of a couple who illegally immigrated, worked hard in service industries, became citizens, lost their jobs, have refused to accept ANY govt assistance, dig through trash and have put 2.5 kids (youngest is a soph in college) through college just on what they make through recycling. Their oldest son graduated from MIT with a degree in aerospace engineering. These are some incredible parents!!
That is amazing Pam.
Wow, Pam. That is amazing!
Where I live, there is a foundry, that seems to employ mostly Hispanic men. I have no idea if these guys are legal or not. If they aren't, and the immigrants are sent back to Mexico, there goes his workforce.
Well, I don't feel too sorry for the employers who are hiring these illegal people that might be loosing their work force. You can't tell me that they don't know they are hiring illegal people!! In my opinion, they broke the law as much as the illegals themselves. Perhaps if they didn't get hired by all these places, they wouldn't be coming here by the millions without going through the proper system to become legal!!
Bingo Vicki!! They know they can get cheap labor from people with a much better work ethic.
In some cases like babysitting and construction, I think illegals can be considered cheap labor. I know many families that use illegals for full time nannies for about $600/month when a legal nanny would be twice that and they can't afford it. But at my former employer's, the illegals were paid the same as non-illegals (and you can't tell by looking at them as they are all Hispanic) were paid $8-12/hour sometimes more.
On a slightly different issue, they were talking on the radio yesterday about Mexican women who come into the USA on a Shopping Visa when they start going into labor and they are going to the USA hospitals along the border to birth. Those babies are American citizens.
Mommie, coming across in labor is VERY VERY common, and young girls are delibrately getting pregnant to have that security!
I am 20 minutes from the border, and have border patrol truck at the end of my street about 50% of the time.
It is true that the aliens are paying into SS and medicare by using stolen SSN's my daughters was stolen when she was 6 months old, but it really does not put a dent into the $$ burden they bring to our educational system and medical systems. I had a friend that had to move, her dh is a orthapaedic surgeon and was called out nearly every night for illegal medical problems from crossing, this is $$ spent that will never be recouperated, he just couldn't do it anymore! The debates that have been posted are good. I truly feel if the illegal aliens (note I said aliens, my husbands partner is from scottland, now a US citizen HE is an immigrant), would pull there collective savvy, money and downright fight for a better way, and have a civil revolt that the US could support militarily that would be the best solution. We were not always the land of the free remember? We had the brave that made us FREE! The class division in Mexcio now would never lend itself to a free market or way of life, however they have rich soil, and could culitivate more than drugs, beautiful lands that would (and do) bring in high tourism dollar, not to metion US companies doing business there that bring in money, it's the government that rapes it's own people!
I forgot to say
"Welcome back Minutemen"
http://www.minutemanproject.com/
I don't usually take part in debates, but as a permanent US resident with a green card (a legal alien) I have been reading this thread with interest. Although I think it's terribly unfair and don't believe it's right to illegally enter a country, I also know that in dire straights I would do whatever necessary (short of murder) to feed and take care of my family. Unless I have actually stood in their shoes I have no right to judge them.
Trina, that's my point, why if they are willing to day ANYTHING to feed their families why not start in their country? Could we lend a hand with educating them on this, and aid in whatever way necessary to eventually come to a point where we can be "friendly neighbors" we all wish we were?
I usually don't respond to threads like this as well, it's a passionate area for me and sometimes (most times for me) it's hard to get a point across eloquently through typing
Kym, how do we know they haven't already tried in their own countries? Bottom line, this country has better opportunities.
Agreed, we do have better opportunities, but not without years of bloodshed, tears, trial & error. Another bottom line, Mexico is run by a friendly "tyrant" he puts on a good show, but really offers nothing for his citizens to better themselves! The citizens of Mexico need to rally against the Government, not just try to eek out a living, I'm sure they have tried to get a job, support their families, but it goes way deeper than that.
Could we lend a hand with educating them on this, and aid in whatever way necessary to eventually come to a point where we can be "friendly neighbors" we all wish we were?
Yes! Sounds great! But many of this board (whom I am sure are a representative sample of the US population) have said that we don't need to spend time or money helping out people in other countries when we have problems in our own. I agree with you however.
And of course you have the "well, they just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps" approach. However, we must remember that we don't know what it feels like to live in their country under the conditions in which they live. Sometimes people can't even comprehend of getting out of poverty because they have NEVER seen it---everyone they know is in poverty. It's kind of like saying why didn't slaves overthrow the plantation owners of why didn't the Jews rebel against the Nazis, they were more oppressed than oppressors so physically they might have been able to do so. However, when you are beaten down by life your whole psyche changes and sometimes you don't realize that the "American dream" can happen in Haiti or Mexico or Honduras because you have not mental concept of that.
My DH did mission work in Belarus (former USSR--where Chernobyl was) several years ago. When he came home he was so incredible depressed for several weeks. Very unlike himself. I gave him ann ultimatum of 2 more weeks to snap out of it or I was taking him to a psychologist. The reason he was so depressed was because he said that the Belarussians have absolutely no concept of hope. They don't know what it means and can't even begin to wrap their brains around it. Their entire modus operandus is surviving each day. Beyond that they can't imagine. They fought to overthrow communism and did so when the USSR collapsed. However, they had no clue about how capitalism and free enterprise worked, so after all of the rebellion and subsequent freedom they went back to communism because at least it is familiar. DH carries a 1,000,000 rubel note in his daytimer. He is a millionaire in Belarus, but it means nothing---equal to a couple of bucks because the economy is so bad.
Kym, you're right. It is "way deeper" but if we don't develop some sort of human compassion for people in other countries and come up with ways to help, then we are just contributing to the problem when we stand around, wring our hands and decry the illegal aliens, without doing anything to make the situation better.
sorry for all of the typos---hope you can make sense of it anyway.
Pam, I'm glad you agree and hope that you do sense my compassion in my idea, I don't believe in handouts, I feel they are in a sense the least compassionate thing we can do for another because we simply can't continue a handout forever, this is on small and large scale issues. I do however feel if we as a SuperNation can see a way to hlep others by "sparking" them into making their own home lands better, than it is worth it for us, not to mention the compassionate thing to do, to expell some resources, time and energy to hlep them do it.
And I do believe that those in Mexico do understand Hope, they see it a few miles away on our border, I only wish they could see the hope on their side and do whatever it took to make it a reality, rather than putting the burden on the US to sustain them.
Here is a link to a column from the business section of today's Philadelphia Inquirer, by Andrew Cassel, the Inquirer's regular business/economy columnist, "Missing the point on immigration".
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/columnists/andrew_cassel/14241407.htm
One of the points he makes is that immigrant workers (legal or illegal) don't do "the jobs American's won't do"; they do the jobs that in other countries get done by machines. As an example, he points out that in California, grapes are picked by migrant workers, and in Australia by machine. His point is that in this country we use immigrant workers to do jobs because they can do them cheaper than having them done by machine, because of our structure of pay levels for immigrants and the ready access to immigrant workers. (Australia is, of course, difficult to reach, and has very, very strict immigration policies). He also notes that we use immigrant labor to do jobs that would not otherwise be done - nannies, in-home child care, housekeepers, in-home nursing care for our elderly parents, etc., and that in a lot of cases if we didn't have the immigrant labor the children and elderly would be cared for in large settings - daycare or nursing homes.
He also explores briefly explores the history of immigration in this country. I recommend this column for your reading if you are concerned about the multitude of issues around immigrant labor.
Here's Ginny's link:
Missing the point on immigration
Great article, but again lots of questions (and facts), but few answers.
Here's another article, from NPR
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
I find I am very conflicted about this issue. It is probably the first issue I've come across in I don't know how many years where I don't have a firm opinion. My son and I spent about an hour talking about it tonight, and neither of us as a clear opinion. Nor do we have any answers. I do think that the way our laws are presently constructed, there is no real answer, because they are convoluted, labyrinthine, and unenforced by and large. I do think that there should be some set of laws that would allow immigrant workers to be able to work legally, so that they would pay all taxes and be able to get, for example, union membership and health care benefits, and eventual citizenship if they follow the rules and learn what every citizen should know (though many of us born here don't know what people seeking citizenship are required to know). My son raised a concern about the US dollars these workers send to other countries and what that may mean to the US economy, but I haven't found anything that gives me any information about that question.
I will say, I really don't like not being able to form a clear opinion - that feels really strange to me.
I do wish that this issue were not being debated and possibly decided in the leadup to an important election - and every commentator I've heard says that this mid-term election is potentially very crucial for both parties. Many commentators I've heard opine that because this is such a hot, divisive topic it will quite possibly be put on hold until after the election. I am afraid that if it becomes a major election issue (which it really is already) that whatever decisions are made will be made on the basis of what is likely to sway voters in November, rather than what will be, in the long term, good law for our nation.
Pam, I agree that we have a lot of our own needy here in our country, but our social programs and many of our medical facilities are bogged down with helping the immigrants. Imagine how much more we could do for our own citizens if we didn't have that extra burden. Helping to educate the citizens of Mexico to make their own country flourish and be profitable would, in the long run, be beneficial to the U.S. It sounds like a great idea to me.
Ginny, as for your first article, I do not disagree that immigrant labor isn't beneficial. I have no problem with immigrants in the labor pool. I simply feel that our country has been violated by the immigrants who insist that they have rights in our country yet have no concern for our laws whatsoever. It's no different than the neighborhood kid who comes over and disregards our house rules. He gets sent home. He doesn't get invited to dinner and a sleepover.
I do not, however, advocate that we round them all up and ship them all back. They say there are, what, 10 million undocumented workers? Well, if they are undocumented, how do we really KNOW how many there are? And, if there truly are millions of them, it would take too many resources and too much time to locate them all and provide transportation back to Mexico (or wherever) while at the same time being sure that they don't come back across the border. I think that would be a waste of time and energy. We should be deciding what to do with them now that they are here.
I do not believe that tackling the ILLEGAL immigration issue will be accomplished through immigration reform. We will probably need to form brand spanking new legislation that would make it possible for the ones already here to become legal, yet without giving them a free pass. I think that's called compromise.
I think your second article left out a few details. Like, "The most respected recent studies" If they are so respected, why are they not cited by name? And "most economists." Again, what economists? who are they? (Oh, he did cite one person, Harvard's George Borjas)
Also, I do not believe that high school dropouts would be the only ones affected by the sudden disappearance of illegal immigrants. I don't know why he felt the need to put the immigrants' skills on the same level as only high school drop outs. It isn't true all the way around. How about high school grads or young college kids who are working their way through school and don't have the skills yet to get a higher paying job? They work their way thru school by busing tables and doing dishes, too. He could have included all teens and young adults who have not yet acquired any skills in the group of Americans who would be affected.
many Americans from other parts of the country choose not to move to areas with large numbers of immigrants, because they want to avoid competing for jobs.
I do not understand how Americans would be competing for jobs with the illegal immigrants if it has already been established that high school drop outs make up the only segment of our population affected by the presence of illegal immigrant workers.
So, I guess I am trying to say that I think the NPR article has a few holes in it. ;) But I basically agree with you, Ginny, that this isn't an easy problem to solve, since it is also largely our government's fault that it exists. Immigration laws should have been enforced long long ago. In fact, thinking about this as I am typing, I now see that this whole time, over the past several decades, the immigration laws have gone so largely un-inforced that the impression is left that WE DON'T have respect for OUR OWN immigration laws. So, why should the illegal immigrants have more respect for our laws than we do?
...I have a good friend who is semi engaged to a loser, but he is a Canadian, he works for an oil company here. But his work visa was about to expire, now we have a huge unemployment rate, I personally know of 3-4 people who are qualified (if not much better so) for his job, that are looking for jobs. Why does he get a work visa...GO HOME, GET A JOB THERE! He doesn't want to be a us citizen, he just wants all the benefits here. I think he should be deported!...
I haven't been reading everything here, but wanted to ask you about the above quote, Kaye. Is he there because he's with his fiance? I can't see what benefit he would get being in the US as opposed to Canada. In his field of work there is not an employment issue in Canada, he would be living in a wealthy province, etc. Other than having his fiance, how does he benefit from being there?
Not sure Marcia, but he went to college with the intention of working here. I don't get it. My personal opinion is if that is how he felt become a citizen! But he doesn't "want" to be an American. I think health care benefits are different here, he makes close to 150k and his house only cost about the same. Cost of living and pay makes TX look mighty fine to many people!
One more note on the rallies. Houston is having a real issue with kids skipping school to protest. (i keep seeing buses on the news and wonder about that). So yesterday the city officials decided to have a public forum, where they could explain the changes to the laws that are being proposed, but mostly an open mike thing. Well on the news this AM, they showed the panel of people and a quick look at the audience. There were all of about 10 people there. I know this is going to sound ugly, but come on, if it is an important enough issue to go protest, show up to the LEGAL way meant to deal with this. I really get so fed up with people taking the easy way out. I have to believe the parents of these children aren't too happy about them or some would have made it to the meeting. Again if America's ways aren't right and these meetings are stupid and ridiculous, what are you doing to change them? Cutting school and inticing riots, taking my police off the street to watch you, IS NOT the best way!
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