Talking about God
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Talking about God
It was the partial birth abortion thread that sparked this. Some of us felt that God and the Bible are used a lot, perhaps to much, in debates and discussion here. To the point that people who don't share a belief in a Christian god or any god might feel excluded to an extent.
I started reading a blog (http://islamicparenting.blogspot.com/) by a homeschooling Muslim mom who's last blog was about a miscarriage she'd just had. She mentioned how, in the thick of dealing with in a doctor's waiting room this:
" One guy today started loudly humming a hymn when I sat across from him-- you tell me what that was supposed to mean. Another gave us a dirty look so intensely hostile it prompted my husband to initiate a conversation with me, in English, loudly, about people having no mercy and having serious problems if they are capable of giving such awful looks"
There's an example of bringing faith up in a public place with the clear intent to harm, isolate, or at least make uncomfortable, another person. A woman dealing with a traumatic experience had some 'christian' basically use our Christian hymns to assault her.
From the other side, I have a friend who's much more involved in her church life and Christian culture then I am. God and faith slip into her conversation a lot, not because she's attempting to bring it up but simply because it's such a large part of who she is. I have another friend who was wary of inviting her into a get-together group we have because she was afraid the first woman would be a Bible thumper. Simply because the first friend talks about God she's given a label and has to prove herself to this woman to 'earn' a way into our group.
I'm not sure how to shape this but clearly talking about God can hold repercussions. Where do you guys think the limits and boudaries are?
That's a tough one, and I'm sure every person here has a different idea of where the boundaries should be.
I have friends and relatives, of all different faiths, who are deeply religious, moderately religious, not religious at all. I have no problem with any of them bringing God or faith into any conversation simply because it's a large part of who they are. I may not necessarily agree with them, but who am I to knock their beliefs?
Where I draw the line is when someone attempts to make me feel like a lesser person or insult me because I don't believe as they do. I resent anyone trying to cram their religion down my throat. I don't think anyone has the right to do that to anyone else.
I have an aunt who is deeply religious and all she does is talk about saving us, and every conversation or email from her includes some reference to us being saved so *we will all be together in the afterlife*. She is what is commonly referred to as a bible thumper. She literally preaches at you, every chance she gets. I resent that, I feel she crosses the line. I've tried to be tactful with her, beginning with something like *I respect your beliefs, but they are just that - YOUR beliefs and I appreciate your concern, but I don't feel the need to be saved by you*. She has been relentless. It was only when I stopped answering her emails that she finally stopped - or at least mellowed. She even tried to get me to come visit her in GA, by telling me she wouldn't preach at me while I was there.
I have a problem with the *fire and brimstone* type of preaching and religion as well. I don't believe fear should be used in that way. Or better yet - that religion should be equated with a fear of God - anyone's God.
I totally resent it when someone does just as what you posted about above.
Just because I am not a church-goer does not mean I don't have beliefs and that I'm not interested in what others have to say concerning religion. It doesn't mean you can't mention God or your faith when conversing with me. For me, people should not be singled out, shamed, insulted, harrassed, etc. for their religious beliefs, and the line is crossed when that happens.
Well Karen I was getting ready to respond but you saved me the trouble!  My thoughts exactly!
Well said Karen. I completely agree!
I just think when you're debating things, the people who bring the Bible/Christian beliefs into it don't understand when you're not coming at it from that point of view. There are things in the Bible that I don't agree with (and I'm sure to some people that means I'm going to hell) so when someone debates that "the Bible says..." that doesn't matter to me if I don't agree with it in the first place. Does that make sense?
I totally agree with Karen about people who make you feel less or come off themselves as being 'above' because they think they're the right hand to God. That is VERY frustrating. Do they not realize that they are doing anything BUT reaching non-Christians by acting this way? I personally know people who are not church-goers and do not speak about God and have more morality than people who are there 7 days a week, involved in everything possible there, and they never shut up about it. THOSE are the people who set examples to be followed IMO.
This is a great topic Dawn!
I agree with Karen as well. I tolerate it with my parents, becuause my beliefs are different than theirs, but if someone was "preaching" to me, or forcing their religion on my I'd tell them where to shove it.
Now, if you are talking specifically about this board, we used to have a member who shoved religion in our face in EVERY post. It was obnoxious, and the rules were changed to prevent offending non-Christians. I'm not offended by talk of God or prayer or any other religion, although when it comes to debates about government, I think religion should be left out. JMHO of course. Basically, I agree with Deanna on that aspect.
Ditto everyone! Very well said, Karen. I don't think we need to leave religion and God out of our debates though. We don't live in a society without religion, so why should our debates ignore the religious implications of certain topics? By doing that or debates would not be "real" nor would they be as much fun .
We do need to make sure that what we say about religion does not come off in a superior, condescending or authoritarian manner. We cannot make light of someone else's beliefs.
I have a sil and fil who are "born again" and I'll tell you things were pretty tense in this family until we basically told them that our beliefs worked just fine for us. It was not until I had to remind them that according to our beliefs, they were the ones in danger of not being "saved" and we were not trying to change their way of worship that they stopped their efforts.
I guess religion is good unless it gets so pervasive and overbearing that it makes you uncomfortable rather than comforted.
Ame
This is a general statement, combining the post here and the ones that sparked this topic to begin with..
We seem to be having an issue with people talking about God in their post?? And we feel that that shouldn't be allowed because our views are not the same as the "believers"... Here is a question on the flip side, should everyone that doesn't bring up God be admonished too?????? You want some (members) to be restricted, punished for giving their view because it isn't like yours or because a word is thrown into their post. So what happens when you start talking about something a few don't believe in, lack respect over?? For everyone of your opinions about a post there are a others that are for that very same post you wish to sensor.. Being religious is not illegal.. Being annoying with it is just that, annoying.. You don't have to like everyone that comes here and you don't have to have the same point of view. But you do need to recognize that speaking of God and attacking you with God are two separate things.. And as a moderator (feeling I can speak for the other moderators) if someone is spiritually/religiously attacking a person they will be dealt with. But saying Abortion is a crime against God is not grounds for a reprimand.. And instead of giving the board/moderation grief for allowing the word God to be brought up in post.. You should be thankful.. because that means you aren't being censored or forced to conform.. It means that we respect the opinions and the freedom to express those opinions of our members.. In another post a moderator was condemned for censorship or so the member viewed it as censorship.. Could you people do me a favor and get on the same page?? Either you want to be able to voice your views or you want us to censor your every phrase.. Or is it that you want to have the freedom to voice your opinions in the way you see fit but everyone else must conform to your way of posting or suffer censorship?? As long as you or your views aren't being censored? Either avoid the post made by someone that keeps bringing up God, or educate yourself enough to be able to counter the opinions.. But don't expect to ever see us go in and *** out God, just like we won't be going in and *** out abortion.. Or Government issues. Or opinions on spring fashions.. Agree to disagree. Find respect in the view of others.. And avoid the ones you can't respect.. But making a thread with a unanimous following or not.. Your opinions are not the only opinions, for everyone of you there is someone who disagrees with you... You want to come here to express yourself, respect the rights of the other members to express themselves too.. I truly think that our action as moderators are constantly in question and that if it isn't someone complaining about our actions here it will be someone else complaining about our actions there.. I think you are on a moderated message board of your own free will. You asked to join, you were invited in.. You need to recognize the fact that if the way things here are handled are not up to your liking then you can do a simple search and find yourself another support group. (that was a general statement not directed at the above posters but anyone that would like to come here and interject their opinions to what I just said).
We do not censor opinions by the way, we censor behavior... It isn't what you say that gets a post removed or edited.. It is the manner in which you say it... Just for those of you that haven't caught on to that fact...
Bobbie, I think the less offensive way to handle it is to say something like "It's my belief that abortion is a crime against God". Sometimes it can come across as "It's a crime against God", and leave others thinking "well, *I* don't believe in God, so that is a moot point." I guess what I'm saying is some people word it so it seems that believing in God is the ONLY option, and even if you don't believe, you should follow His rules, because other people DO believe that. KWIM??
Let's use a different example. Some people think that working outside the home when you are a mother is practically punishable by death, and it means you don't love your child. Others feel it's fine, and it works for them. If we were debating that, and Sally said You can't work outside of the home and still give your children the love they need, amnd you having a job is hurting your kids", people would be offended. Now, if Sally said "It's my opinion that working outside the home is not good for your children, and is not a choice *I'd* make for MY family", people might not be offended as easily. It comes back to the whole conforming to one groups' standards, which is not what this board or this country are about. (And I don't mean to exclude those of you who are not Americans, I just don't know your cultures well enough to comment on them"
Crystal this debate isn't about tone of voice or the context something is said in.. It is about the over use of the word God in the debates and the discussions on this site as the OP says.. "Some of us felt that God and the Bible are used a lot, perhaps to much, in debates and discussion here. To the point that people who don't share a belief in a Christian god or any god might feel excluded to an extent." To me this implies that they want the word God to come up in red * like a dirty word because it makes them feel uncomfortable just to hear it used and because we don't run around admonishing people for saying it, going against their rights to not have to see the word use.. Implying that their opinions hold more value than the "Christians" and that we should deal with the "Christians" in a manner to make them stop speaking of God.. Do you all even begin to understand the number of Christians that take offense to the abortion, circumcision, death penalty debates and many other debates that are brought up every couple of months around here that would be seen offensive to a Christian?? What about all the Sex post?? We have at least a post a week about sex.. We don't say okay you can debate everything but ..... because you will offend the Christians.. and we aren't going to tell the Christians to stop putting the word God in their post. Your opinions and lack of Christian (or traditional Christian) beliefs does not make your rights have more value. If we sit back and let you debate the price of sex toys we surly are not going to go up to "Sally" and say now now no God a loud on this board for you might upset the people that don't play with God... any more than we are going to say, hey now.. No sex talk because you are offending a section of the members here that don't discuss sex publicly.
You have a right to come here, you have a right to read and to post and in that right you have the ability to skip threads you do not wish to be involved in.. Or to skip a post made by someone that you know you will never see eye to eye with. But to imply that because we are not going to edit post that you don't agree with is censorship on your part. You are saying they expect you to "conforming to one groups' standards", yet you are expecting us to make sure they conform to yours??
Crys, You are implying, that if I say, (um lets see....) "I am of the opinion that (trying to state something off the hip) those women that go out and have twins are nuts.." "it is hard for me to believe a person could manage two babies at one time and it is my opinion that she has to be neglecting her children." would that come across better to either one of us because they added the In my opinions, to their ignorance???? I agree others should mind their own business, unless opinion is requested but that is across the board and has nothing to do with Christian beliefs.. Society wants to press their ways as the only right way to be.. And if you read what you are saying from the outside. You are implying the same thing should apply to the same people you are admonishing... Instead of sitting here and debating whether they are right or you are.. You should figure out ways to put out your view, when someone comes at you.. Instead of expecting them to "conform to your groups' standards".. Because whether you want to see it or not you are a part of a group, no different then the Christians you admonish..
does that make sense?? Am I getting you to see the other side of this?? Because you know I can go on...
I definitely think people should bring up God/Bible in debates if that is something they base their opinions on. I just feel that people that usually do that also can't see anything but "what the Bible says" and I disagree with *that* frame of mind.
I totally don't admonish Christian views, and many of them I hold myself. And there are "Bible thumpers" everywhere, so they are bound to be on this board, too. That's just life.
Back to the original question: If it's not putting me down or making me feel like someone else is better than me because they supposedly have a key to the after-life that I don't have, then talking about/interjecting religion is fine by me.
What's wrong with just saying "I think it's wrong", or "it goes against my beliefs?" I'm not against mentioning God, just that I don't find it a useful point for debating, since it's irrelevant to those who don't believe. I can say "I feel abortion is wrong because it goes against my beliefs", but saying "Abortion is wrong because God says it's murder" is ridiculous. It's basicaclly saying all of us who are not believers are going to hell for our beliefs. And let's be honest, none f us REALLY know there is a God, so it's all a matter of beliefs. I'm not asking ANYONE to edit their posts, or censor themselves, but in order to be taken seriously in a debate (and if you don't want to be taken seriously, why bother??" I don't think you should state something is correct or incorrect simply because it's God's word. It makes anyone with a dissenting opinion feel like they are automatically being judged for not being a believer.
And yes, Bobbie, I do see both sides of it.
Crystal, I think your asking people to change their style of speaking is as unfair as someone else asking you to change your style.
A lot of people, when they say they believe something is right/wrong, go on to say why they think so. Some of us refer to the Constitution, some to the Bible, or other writings. Thats what people do.
As long as peope are saying "I believe something is wrong/right because the Bible or God says so (and when they say "God" they really mean the Bible - no one has a really private line), I have no problem with it. It's when someone says "you should believe something is wrong/right because the Bible says so" that I have a problem.
I'm not sure what you are saying, Crys, but the way it comes across is "I don't want people to mention God or the Bible because I don't believe in them". But I don't think other posters should have to conform to your particular beliefs (and unbelief is a "belief"), any more than you should have to conform to theirs. Everyone has to conform to the posting rules, and that's about it.
Dawn asked, "where are the limits and boundaries?" I agree, it would be more tactful and more thoughtful of others to say "I believe thus and so because the Bible says so" than to say "thus and so is wrong/right because the Bible says so". That is a blanket sort of statement, and there is a kind of implication that God/Bible trumps everything else. But anyone can respond with - I don't believe the way you believe, so if you want to persuade me you'll have to find another reason. I don't think, however, that anyone can (or should) set a total limit that mentioning God or the Bible is not proper/appropriate/right/fair. That boundarie or limit is not workable, and asks for a major change from people in their style of communication.
And since *I* sometimes refer to the Bible in my posts, it would leave me grasping for another source for an opinion, which would frustrate *me*.
Bobbie, I didn't think this was just about the, ' "Some of us felt that God and the Bible are used a lot, perhaps to much, in debates and discussion here." ' perspective. Afterall I included examples at the beginning from outside this board and certainly one about how talking about God led to an unfair judgement about a friend.
And I haven't seen anything that's criticized the board or mods here or called for censorship, just people sharing their opinions. Mostly the opinions came from one side but I had hoped that if the discussion stayed calm and engaging some people would share their thoughts about how God and their faith informs their opinions. Perhaps I should have asked not only what the boudaries are but where the space for talk related to religion is also. After all, I don't think some people realize how fundamental belief is to shaping points of view.
Anyway...I was thinking last night and I think the, "because the Bible says so," argument is a sticky one but can have some merit to those outside the faith. I think because though the Bible is a faith document for some of us it's also a cultural document for all of us. It's had a great impact on shaping our countries, the views of some of it's leaders, etc.
But I think that if some of us use it, it might be with the understanding that it not, "What the bible says, ' but rather an interpretation of the Bible. The implication when someone says, "the bible says so," is that there's a uniform agreement on what the bible says which is about as far from the truth as we can get. The destruction of the soddomites might be an indictment on homosexuality to some and a judgement on the attempt to cross another's act of hospitality to someone else. I know a woman who claims the Bible demands she read no fiction as Paul instructed Timothy to read, "No fables and endless genealogies." Okay, but my reading of that is Paul telling Timothy to reject the Hebrew Scriptures.
In short, I don't think the, "because the Bible said so," arguments are invalid but they do need explanation and support. I think we Christians get too lazy sometimes in how we defend our POV and we should welcome the comments of the ladies here that AREN'T Christians as a challenge to think a little more about what we write.
Crystal wrote>"Abortion is wrong because God says >it's murder" It's basicaclly saying all of us who >are not believers are going to hell for our >beliefs.
Maybe then it's partly how you read the statement? For the sake of those I'm debating with I've learned not to read too much into what they say. Take it for granted that all that statement means is exactly what it says. Then ask for more information on it. Where does he say that? In what context? And maybe challenge them to come up with an argument that makes sense to a secular person?
One more question for those who are christian, do you guys feel restricted in how you talk about God in everyday life lest you be judged a Bible thumper?
Dawn, I actually think it is mainly about how you read the statement, which stands for every post.. I have seen people blow gaskets over post, that when read were not actually offensive but the way they read into them they were. When a person that feels they are a non believer is presented with a God comment, I doubt very much the wording of the post is going to make them feel anything but condemned for not being a believer. Even taking the time to actually state the Scriptures that justify your beliefs will have no value to someone that feels they are strong in their convictions. Because being strong in their non believing convictions they most likely hold no value in Scriptures. As you basically stated, we can all miss read Scripture and twist it to suit our personal convictions. And we all know people Christian or not that feel they are holier than thou.. Meaning ignorance doesn't just carry the label "bible thumper". Are their ignorant "bible thumpers"? Yes, but their are also people that don't believe in the Bible that have no stance behind their beliefs also. They just believe... So just saying "God doesn't condone abortion." Is a blanket statement.. With no backing.. But in the same turn. The statement "I have no problem with someone having an abortion." has no backing either. that statement could leave a believer upset, but because the others have no value in the believer it is over looked. So why shouldn't/can't the non believer simply over look the believers stance if it is not one they themselves believe in, or for that matter don't we all do that anyway? Over look post we know aren't going to agree with us?
We can do that, have this complaint with anything.. Read a book on child rearing and debate it, even reading the same text, everyone will come away with different things from it. Those who have raised their children will all see different errors in it and those that have not had children will have no clue if errors exist in the text. Either side can stand on that text and say well the good book of child rearing says... But the main point is, unless you are studied in child rearing blanket statements. "I believe that potty training before 3 is wrong because the good book of child rearing says so." Truly doesn't amount to a pile of dirty diapers. Instead of going on to explain that the child's body might not be able to hold with out accidents until the age of 3. But I promise you someone is going to choose to feel uncomfortable because they all didn't read the good book of child rearing or they didn't get that out of their reading of the text, or because their child is 4 and still having accidents. So you will have those that feel condemned and those that feel validated.. And those that have no clue because their baby is a month old but they think they will run out and get the good book and read it themselves. Basically, today we can discuss the comments about God. Tomorrow it will be someone bringing up the sex talk, the marriage issues, the child rearing issues.. "Those mom's that have read every book on child rearing keep throwing the darn things in my face when I try to ask questions." "They make me feel like less of a mother because I don't Co Sleep, breast feed, hold my baby 24 hours a day." So the topic of that debate would be "Talking about God (insert child rearing)" and someone would have their feelings hurt... Someone will feel condemned. Yet no one expects the mom's not to quote from that book.. No one is asking for those mom's not to keep bringing up that book.. We read their comments, likely roll our eyes and move to the next post with out missing a beat.. It is PC to breast feed, oh wait today it is not.. It is PC to co sleep, oh wait today it is not..
"Sally" breast fed, co slept, carried her baby on her hip 24 hours a day and never dreamed of working out side the home.. Darn her, I know she snubs me for what I have done, she sees me as a failure.. She condemns me in every post, as if her actions (beliefs) are better, stronger than mine..
"Sue" is constantly throwing God at me.. She constantly ends her post with it's Gods way, or no way. She makes me feel less of a person because I don't follow her beliefs.. If I say one thing, she tries to make it non Biblical.. If she tries to counter anything in a debate she throws HER God into the conversation like He must hold value to us all. She never explains herself beyond, "God says so.." "the Bible says soo.." How do you debate that?? Especially when she doesn't give her references??
My point is.. Over look the post/threads that make you uncomfortable.. If you feel condemned it is because you are holding stock in something or someone you claim to hold no value in..
I have my beliefs.. They are my beliefs and I am solid in them.. No one posting that God said is going to sway my convictions. We have mothers that come from across the spectrum here.. Some I am on the same page with on some topics but not on all the topics.. Does that mean that they should change for me? That they have to be on every page I am on with quotes and opinions that match my way of thinking?? No.. Does that mean that (not directed at anyone) I don't find some of the comments made on this board completely with out merit and some times even ignorant? Yes.. But I take in consideration, who they are... where their post might be coming from and I choose to over look the differences and comments because I know I am not always agreed with and I will not always agree with everyone else..
If you are a non believer.. Then you hold no merit in what a person thinks God has said.. why allow their thoughts to condemn you?? You wouldn't take a comment from a person that has never had children, been divorced or been married for that matter apply to your thoughts if you saw no value in their comments..
Lets all face it... There are people, that you aren't going to agree with.. Those people have just as much rights as you do. Whether they are politically correct or not.. And you have to over look those people every day of your life.. Why would you assume it should be any different here??
"One more question for those who are christian, do you guys feel restricted in how you talk about God in everyday life lest you be judged a Bible thumper?"
Could we carry on with the original discussion now that everything is clear?
I will not give my opinion now because i am very busy i just wanted to point out that Dawn had asked us a quaestion which she wanted to debate, i never saw it as she saying that too many people bring God into the discussions, or something like that!
Dawn i don't know how to respond to your original post (i don;t know if i know what you wanted to ask if you know what i mean...) but i certainly understadn the second question, the one i quoted above, so later when i have time i will try to come back to this.
Bobbie, I didn't read your post, because you tend to write novels LOL, I'll come back to that. Ginny, I see your point. However, I'm not understanding how a person can say something as a fact "Abortion is wrong because it goes against the Bible", when in reality that is not fact. People can say religious things all they want, but in a debate I think we should at least use some fact, even if it's "In my religion, it's considered wrong". That is a fact, and we can all respect that" However, saying "It's wrong because God says so" implies THAT is a fact, when it is a belief. I'm having a difficult time explaining it, and honestly, I don't care enough to really get upset over it, but it is mildly irritating when God's word is presented as fact, rather than someone beliefs. It's like saying "The 5th (I think it's the 5th) amendment says I have the right to bear arms" (FACT), and "I should be able to carry a weapon at all times no matter what the circumstance because it's my right" (opinion/interpretation)
Oh, hell... I can't make my fingers explain my brains thoughts. Just ignore me, I'm going back to lala land now. LOL
Oh Crystal, for heaven's sake. It's the Second Amendment, and if you want to see a real battle, bring up the Second Amendment near any NRA meeting.
I see your point, Crystal, and I think some people may change their way of presenting their opinions/beliefs because of your posts. But I do think you are spinning your wheels if you want or expect people who speak that way to change the way they speak.
Sorry about that Ginny, I know my amendments, but was dealing with my twin tyrants when I wrote that, and couldn't remember!!! LOL!!!. I don't expect to change anyone, except myself, but I felt bringing it to the table might give some people insight into how other's view it.
(Even more embarrasing than forgetting which amendment it was, I'm a supporter of the right to own guns! Heston is gonna find this thread and kick my butt!!!)
I'm not sure how to shape this but clearly talking about God can hold repercussions. Where do you guys think the limits and boudaries are?
I have hesitated to post on this because I have a lot to say, but this post has gone every which way and I can't organize my thoughts enough to respond. It would be so much easier if we all could just chat in person. We MUST get that Momsview cruise organized!
I do frequently post my Christian leanings when I respond to a debate because I want it known that my views stem from my faith. I am pro-life but not because I feel abortion is "bad" or immoral, but because I feel like life does begin at conception, so the purposeful ending of that life is murder. The reason that I feel this way is because of scripture AND God's conviction in my life. I think it is important to realize and distinguish several things though: (1)Scripture is open to interpretation based on denominational leanings, upbringing, etc., but I do believe that it is God-inspired and inerrant. Not all Christians believe this. Some Christians believe that the Bible's statement for women to dress modestly and wear their hair up means that they can only wear skirts, have long hair, no make-up or jewelry, etc. While I believe that scripture is true, I believe that statements such as those were in relation to the times and aren't meant to be interpreted literally. There are tons of other examples too. (2)All Christians are at different levels of spiritual maturity. A new Christian will struggle with issues that are "no-brainers" for a mature Christian and we are all convicted about different things at different times in our lives. A Christian's relationship with God is a dynamic evolving relationship that is ever-changing. I used to be in favor of the death penalty. Now I am vehemently opposed to capital punishment (actually goes hand in hand with my views on abortion, the way we treat the poor and homeless, euthanasia, etc.---all sanctity of human life issues in my mind) and the change of heart is totally a "God thing." (3)There are different "flavors" of Christians, even within the same denomination. Some believe in evolution and others only in creationism. Some believe in abortion in the cases of rape and danger to mother, others are opposed to it in all cases. Being a Christian does not mean that you checked your brain at the door and surrendered free will. And finally...(4)Some Christians are evangelical and others are not. I do think that scripture clearly states that we are to be evangelical, so no surprise I am an evangelical Christian. As such that means that I have an obligation to share my faith with others. I am STRONGLY convinced that it does NOT mean that I am to shove my faith down someone else's throat, that I should feel or act superior to anyone else, or that I should disrespect someone's personal boundaries. If we are talking about spiritual issues and I sense that you aren't comfortable, then we'll change the subject. However, that desire to share my faith comes from the idea that if I had the cure for cancer and you found out you had cancer and I didn't share the cure with you, then I am being selfish. As a Christian, I feel that I have found *the cure* for loneliness, fear, apathy, worry and so I just want to share what I have found. I hate when people are forceful and try to shove something down my throat that I don't want to hear, so I would only share my faith through an established relationship and as it came up. I also try to live out my faith in everything that I do.
That said, my relationship with God colors every part of my life---from the way to relate to my husband and children, to my goals and priorities in life, to how I think, to how I work, the thoughts I think....everything. I can't separate God from my opinions anymore than I can tease out the fact that I am female, white, married, American, etc. They are all an essential part of who I am. I do try to be respectful of others. If I know for a fact that we don't share a similar religious background or theology, then I would NEVER denigrate your religion or intentionally make you feel uncomfortable. On my Operation Smile mission, my team members ranged from Jewish to Buddist to agnostic to atheist to Catholic. I had some level of spiritual discussion with all of them (it just kind of happens when you are together a lot and in dire situations) and I would daresay that we all had great nonjudgmental conversations of mutual respect.
So, my typically long-winded way to answer your question would be to say that I do feel an obligation to make sure my life glorifies God and to share my faith. However, I should never be anything but gentle and loving in doing so and should never be judgmental or overly aggressive. There is also a time and place.
One more question for those who are christian, do you guys feel restricted in how you talk about God in everyday life lest you be judged a Bible thumper?
Yes, of course. I actually probably am more vocal about my faith on this board than I am in real life simple because I don't want to be thought of as weird or a holy roller. We all want to be loved and accepted and I am no different. It is honestly a daily struggle for me. The way I handle it is through trying to build relationships and then I can feel more comfortable talking about my faith. For example, at work I think I am generally regarded as a hard-worker, team player, and generally upbeat person (you'd have to ask my co-workers to get the real story). As such I feel that people sometimes come to me when they are going through particular struggles (i.e., I coworker's DH has brain cancer and she and I were alone in the lounge and she bared her soul about how she was feeling and what she is going through) and then I will talk about how God has helped me through similar situations in the past. I do weigh each situation and I am in prayer about what to say and how to say it to them.
One final note: I do think it is important to clarify my definition of "Christian." Being a Christian has nothing to do with whether or not someone attends church, has been baptized, has been raised in a Christian family, has taken communion, been confirmed, etc. Being a Christian is the result of having come to some point in life when one realizes that she is a sinner, that Jesus lived a pure and sinless life and died on the cross to pay for her sins, and that He did that so that she could freely enter into a personal relationship with God. It involves coming to that realization and through prayer asking for God's forgiveness and acceptance. Nothing more and nothing less--no religious acts required.
I disagree with your definition. I think what you described is a believer. To be a Christian carries the responsibility of becoming involved in a community of believers. Christianity is a community and I'm not sure you can be Christian if you're not part of a communtiy.
Not to say a community needs to be a church but there's a responsibility to engage others worship with others.
Off track, sorry.
I think you can DEFINITELY be a Christian and not part of a church community.
Dawn, a lot of that depends on the sect of Christianity, some feel worship should be strict and rigid, and others are freespirited.
Well, if I can be excused for referring to the Bible, I think the Good Lord says, "[s]he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved." No other requirements. I personally feel a need to be part of a church community, and have a church community that supports and uplifts me as I am. Others don't. I don't know because I don't read the Bible frequently any more, but I don't think belonging to a community is a requirement. (And I strongly believe the Lord would overlook lack of baptism if there is faith.)
Now, if you were Jewish, you'd definitely need a community, because it requires 10 persons (or, if Orthodox, 10 men) for the saying of certain prayers; other prayers are said individually and don't require a community.
i feel we all have our own beliefs and disbeliefs i feel we all should be able to talk about it and not offend others abortion offends me! not anybodys religion or lack there of.
as long as your not forcing it on me. but i want to hear form islam and other religions i dont have to agree with it right?
Finally got a chance to read your post Pamt. Just wanted to add that I completely agree with your definition of "Christian".
Jennings, I'm confused. Are you saying abortion offends you, but you are pro-choice since it's not forced on you? Or that you are against it even though it doesn't affect you? Your post was sort of cryptic, and I'm not understanding what you are talking about with Islam and other religions.
Sheesh you guys. Please just accept my claims when I express them so I don't have to go back them up please?!?
Off to research the Christianity as community thing.
Oh goody, another one who is going to look things up. ;)
Sorry about that - sort of - well, really, not. But sympathetic.
Oh, and when I said "Others don't" I meant other people don't have/need church communities, not that other churches don't support and uplift. I just realized this was another fuzzy sentence that made perfect sense when I wrote it but doesn't on re-reading.
I disagree with your definition. I think what you described is a believer. To be a Christian carries the responsibility of becoming involved in a community of believers. Christianity is a community and I'm not sure you can be Christian if you're not part of a communtiy.
A Christian is essentially a believer. What I described is "just the facts ma'am" of what makes a person a Christian. A lot of people think that merely church involvement or baptism make one a Christian. My point was that it involves a personal decision and commitment.
I think scripture clearly states that corporate worship and community are key to being a vibrant growing believer (Hebrews 10:24-25 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another and all the more as you see the Day approaching.). I Corinthians has several chapters that compare the church to a body with each member being a different body part and serving an important function. My point was that church membership isn't mandatory to BECOMING a Christian. However, I think that any growing Christian who is seeking to be obedient and grow in faith WILL be an active member of a local church. For example, I came to have a personal relationship with Christ by myself in my bedroom after reading something at age 12. Had I never joined a church I would still have that personal relationship, therefore be a Christian, I just probably wouldn't have grown much in my faith, but it is theoretically possible, just not "best practice." That was what I meant. Christians who aren't members of churches have settled for "good" instead of "excellent" or mere fire insurance instead of an intimate growing relationship with God, IMO.
Sorry, Pam, but I disagree .
I was heavily active in worship and in my faith community from the time I was a kid until I had my own kids. Now I just cannot get to mass with them and I find that I am too distracted by them to get much out of the mass. Have I stopped growing as a Christian because I do not attend mass? Absolutely not. Do I have less of a relationship with God. No way. I have an intimate, growing, relationship with God without being a member of a faith community at this time.
As far as the debate goes, actions speak louder than words. I don't talk about God. I just try to do as He asks, and for sure if faith is important to you, and a debate has something at issue with faith, then a person has every right to say it with respect for the beliefs of others.
Ame
Very well said Pam and completely agree.
Pam, I'm gonna say you are out of line there. I was always taught that it didn't matter HOW you chose to worship God, (speaking in a strictly Christian sense) the most important part is "talking" to Him, and trusting in Him.
Christians who aren't members of churches have settled for "good" instead of "excellent" or mere fire insurance instead of an intimate growing relationship with God, IMO.
That's basically saying you cannot devote your life to God without attending a church. Then again, many Christians find it better to worship at home or in other ways because of the corruption and greed that has taken over many churches. The way I interpreted what you said was you aren't a good enough Christian if you don't attend church. The Bible can be interpreted in many ways (one of the reasons I'm no longer a Christian), so if you only pick and choose which scripture to interpret literally, it's unfair. If you'd like to interpret everything in the Bible literally, your life would be much different than it is now.
Crystal, you can surely feel free to disagree with me, but I don't really understand how I am "out of line." First of all, I stated that it was my opinion , although I can provide plenty of biblical support for what I said, although if you (generic "you") don't believe the Bible then that is a moot point anyway, so we are left to my opinion.
You can devote yourself to God without attending a church. However, you are missing the fullness of the experience of being a Christian. Christianity is at its very core relational, starting with the trinity---God's relationship with Himself as Father, Son, Holy Spirit--and beginning in Genesis 1 when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image." Scripture clearly teaches that each believer has at least one spiritual gift (teaching, administration, mercy, encouragement, giving, etc.) and those gifts are to be used within the body, i.e., the local church. So, if a believer chooses not to attend church and invest that gift then he/she is not totally fulfilling his/her responsibility. Is that person still a Christian? Yes, but not living it to the fullest.
Again, this has gone on a tangent that is not in relation to the original post. It is also very difficult to have a discussion on such a topic when we can't have the give and take of a normal live conversation. However, I've done my best to convey my thoughts and hope that they will be interpreted correctly.
P.S. I do agree that many churches have been affected by corruption and greed (and more unfortunately) as well. However, I think people forget that churches aren't supposed to be perfect places anymore than pastors and ministers are supposed to be perfect people. The church is really a hospital for the sick, made up of and run by people who are mere sinners.
As someone who was a devout, born-again Christian at one time in my life, I have to say that I agree with Pam on that statement. (The one you copied Crystal)It's sad to say but I have found it to be true for me personally. I have not been to church in years or "practiced" Christianity in years(for lack of a better term at the moment), and it has GREATLY affected my relationship/worship with God. Do I have the same beliefs? Absolutely, but my spiritual life is 100% different than it once was because I no longer participate.
And Crystal,I also no longer attend church because of corruption and greed in the church I attended for years. My beliefs are the same, but my growth as a Christian person is no more wihout a church. If I could just attend (any church)and not interact with anyone there, it would be a wonderful place to go;however, we have found that literally impossible to do.
Pam, I also completely agree, very well said.
Crys, You are miss reading what Pam is saying.... She isn't saying you have to go to church to be a believer.. It was actually Dawn that said that to be a Christian you had to be affiliated with a Community (Church) of like believers..
By Unschoolmom on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 10:39 am:
I disagree with your definition. I think what you described is a believer. To be a Christian carries the responsibility of becoming involved in a community of believers. Christianity is a community and I'm not sure you can be Christian if you're not part of a community.
Not to say a community needs to be a church but there's a responsibility to engage others worship with others.
Pam, I felt you were out of line because Ame had just said she has a strong relationship with her God, without atttending Mass. I don't think that makes someone less Christian than you, and the way you said it makes it seem as if you believe that. If you study the Bible, and pray, and do all of the things related to your religion, but choose to worship in a place other than church, I don't see the issue. According to Christianity (of course it's been a while since I went to church), God loves everyone, and is listening any time. I know the Methodists where I was raised didn't care if you worshipped in the church, or in a cornfield, they also didn't care if you came in your best clothes, or rags, they welcomed you all the same. They never made people feel they weren't close to God because they weren't in service every Sunday, because a church is just a building, like any other. You can join a Bible group, or worship with just your family, but I think it's the beliefs and actions that create a strong relationship with your God.
Crys, her post was not directed at AME... It was directed at Dawn.. You are misreading/reading to much into Pam's writing..
She is saying to be a Christian, "Being a Christian has nothing to do with whether or not someone attends church, has been baptized, has been raised in a Christian family, has taken communion, been confirmed, etc. Being a Christian is the result of having come to some point in life when one realizes that she is a sinner, that Jesus lived a pure and sinless life and died on the cross to pay for her sins, and that He did that so that she could freely enter into a personal relationship with God. It involves coming to that realization and through prayer asking for God's forgiveness and acceptance. Nothing more and nothing less--no religious acts required."
She is saying the very same thing you are saying... And in turn she and Dawn are getting heated over whether Pam's OPINIONS on Christianity are right or if Dawns OPINIONS on Christianity are right and you need to be in a church to be considered a Christian...
Crys, if you don't play nice, you will have to start taking a nap before you come to Mom's View... Knock it off...
And for those that aren't aware, not making her an expert or anything but... Pam's DH is a Pastor... That doesn't make her an expert any more than I am a chef because I cook every day. But I just wanted the new people to be aware of that fact.. Because Pam doesn't come here, saying "HI I am Pam, the Pastors wife.."
Ok, ok... I apologize. I interpreted what Pam said to be "you aren't as strong a Christian if you don't attend", meaning you can only go so far in faith without church. Maybe I need a nap. I'll play nice, I promise. I don't even know why I'm bothering on this thread, I'm not a believer to begin with!! *sigh* I'll take my ball and go home now.
One more thing. I think I've been unable to explain my point thus far. I'm NOT asking anyone to not speak of the Bible or God. It just happens that I'm a realist, and like FACT. When debating something, I want to see facts, and although I realize that isn't always possible, the "Because the Bible says so" is a weak argument at best. Even within different Christian groups, the Bible is interpreted differently, so if you are going to use your faith as your opinion in a debate, how about backing it up with more than just "The Bible says so"??, because my retort to that can be "the Bible says it's not for you to judge" I realize religion is important to many of you, but it can be such a grey area that sometimes scripture itself isn't enough to make a decent argument on. It''s not just religion, politics are the same way. Some people will blindly follow because a politician says so, and he/she is leading them into a dangerous situation. Free thinking is the key... even God gave us free will. Ok, swear I'm done, I'm ticking too many people off, and I apologize for that.
If it's any consolation, Crystal, I read it the same way ...
I believe hermits have an intimate, growing relationship with God, and they don't go to church on Sunday.
And as far as having to use your gifts to serve the "body" - that means humankind - not necessarily your local church. I use my gifts and serve in every action I take. When I smile and pick up my child's cup that she's thrown for the hundreth time and do it with love, I am serving. When I help someone I don't know and will probably never see again, I am serving.
See, my take on Christianity come from a Roman Catholic background. I don't know if other denominations follow the teachings of St. Francis, but he took the beattitudes and made a beautiful prayer which I use to shape my life and my interactions with others. It's a hard thing to try and live by, but well worth it. I struggle with many things. But I don't struggle with wondering if I just have "fire insurance" because I am not part of a faith community at this time. I know I have an umbrella policy underwritten by my faith and commitment.
Ame
Crystal, even though I was the one saying Christianity requires some community it doesn't follow that it must be church or that a believer outside of a Christian doesn't have a faith as strong or stronger then those inside a community. And there may be very good reasons for not being in a community. I say community is a requirment for Christianity but not that fullfilling that requirement makes your faith somehow superior to those individuals who are believers on their own.
Heck, Paul, by my definition was not a christian but his faith built Christianity.
Ame, I'm glad, because I really only said something because I thought it was unfair and rude to you. So, thanks for making me feel like less of an idiot.
"Sheesh you guys. Please just accept my claims when I express them so I don't have to go back them up please?!? "
Unschoolmom, do you realize what you just said? I am not supposed to say that God considers it murder because it means nothing to you but you want me to accept your words at face value even though they mean nothing to me?
And in the end this is the kitchen table board. You are free to voice your opinion. I am free to voice mine.
Crystal,
I thank you for defending me.
And know, you could never be an idiot!.
Ame
(And no, that's NOT up for debate LOL).
This is my last post on this subject. I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me, tells me I'm wrong, etc. Ginny and I agree on very little of these "hot" issues, yet she's one of my favorite people to debate with. However, what I do take issue to is being referred to as being "rude and unfair." Crystal, disagree with me all you want, but no need to play dirty. I'm not being rude and unfair simply because I have a different opinion. You have also mentioned "I felt you were out of line because Ame had just said she has a strong relationship with her God, without atttending Mass." If you'll note, I made my statements about church attendance BEFORE Ame's post, not in response to it. So I wasn't attacking her as you seem to have thought. I can't attack Ame's personal experience because it is her experience and her's alone. I can still have my opinion, but I can't argue with someone's personal account. And my statements are being misconstrued to say that if you don't attend church you can't have a growing relationship with God. Well, I don't believe that and didn't say that. I was a Christian for 6 years before becoming a church member and regularly attending church. I grew a lot during that time. My whole point was that a Christian who isn't plugged into the local church (and by church I mean group of fellow believers---it has nothing to do with a building as has also been implies in some of the recent posts) is missing out on part of the fullness of being a Christian. Doesn't mean that your faith isn't growing, just that there is a little part missing. That's my opinion based on personal experience, experiences of others whom I know, and scripture.
Oh Kris - I'm sure you understood that Unschoolmom/Dawn was saying that sarcasticallly or ironically or in some other intended-to-be-funny way. I know from personal experience it is difficult to convey that kind of tone in typing, which is why so many of our posters add a smiley or (LOL) when they intend irony. - and you are right, you are as free as everyone else to voice your opinion.
Pam, I enjoy debating with you also. And I am amazed to have learned that there are many areas of life in which you and I are in agreement (though this, of course, is not one of them). I will say to you as I said to Dawn, that I'd love to see your scriptural support for the need for community. But, my experience is similar to yours - I find it much easier to keep on keeping on in the things I do that for me are faith-based if I am part of a community. There are others who don't, I know, hermits and anchorites being examples, but I think by and large human beings are communal, pack animals, and are more comfortable when being part of like-minded groups.
Dawn - Paul, by your definition, was not a Christian? Could you elaborate on that? I'm curious how your thinking works on that. Paul was, imo, certainly part of a community - that's who he was writing all those letters to. I have to say, Paul has never been one of my favorite people, mostly because he was a fanatic all the way - first for temple Judaism, and then for Christianity. But I personally think that the genius and persistence of Paul is what built what we have inherited as the Christian church. He had a voice that was listened to, much more than most of the other apostles (as far as we can tell from the Bible), and a sense of pragmatism that made it possible for people from all faith or non-faith backgrounds to find themselves a place in the growing "church". And, despite his being quoted so often as a symbol of intolerance, I find his writings in Romans, particularly, a strong effort to teach tolerance for the backgrounds and practices people brought with them when they came to early Christianity, and often find myself quoting or referring people to Romans 14 as an injunction for tolerance.
I think on threads like this one particularly (and all threads in the Kitchen Table) it is really important to read what people are saying, and read it again, before responding, to be sure you are responding to the actual words that a particular person said. I know I am guilty of not doing that and responding to what I thought a person meant rather than what they said (despite that being a source of friction between my son and me when he responds to what he thought I meant instead of what I said), and heaven knows I'm guilty of saying the same thing twice (or more often) in my efforts to be thorough and clear. That said, I think we have had some interesting and thought-provoking discussions on the Kitchen Table recently, and I think by and large we've done a pretty good job of keeping the discussions civil. Not to say feelings haven't been hurt here and there and apologies made and accepted, but on the whole, I think we've been pretty good.
Kris - I was being sarcastic, pointing out that I made a claim without backing it up. That's why I tacked the smiley on there.
Ginny - I was just pointing out the fault in my own claim that to be Christian you needed to be part of a community of worship. As far as I know Paul wasn't part of a community of worship and yet, as you point out he was a genius (with his own faults and blindspots) who is one of the most important figures in Christianity.
Thanks, Dawn. I really, really, really missed that one.
But, I think Paul was part of a community, even if mostly by correspondence. He kept moving around from community to community, keeping in touch, but given that he was trying to start and maintain congregations and kept in touch with them, I do think he was part of a community - but that depends on one's definition. I do understand, from my memories of his writings, that he definitely felt communal worship was important. And I share your feeling about the importance of being part of a faith community - I just don't think it is a scriptural requirement.
1 Corinthians 12 talks about being part of the body of Christ and the different roles of each member.
And there is a verse, I'll find it in a minute, that says something to the effect of wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there shall I be.
Speaking as someone who used to argue that I could worship and be a Christian without going to church, I was lying to myself. Yes, I could have. But I didn't. There was nothing and nobody to hold me accountable. It was between me and God, but He wasn't in my face so I didn't think about it.
But when I started going to church, the people who I am with, associate with, have classes with and worship with don't seem to judge me as much as just to have concern about. Eg "missed you last night, everything ok?" Me: "No, my dog died and I was at home crying over my dog" Hugs follow.
And in my own experience, when I work a weekend and miss church on Sunday and/or am not reading my Bible or a devotional or talking with church friends, I begin to feel different. Not sure I can put it into words.
Bottom line: No, I do Not think the Bible says you HAVE to attend a church.
But I do believe with all my heart, that I am not smart enough to get it all by myself. One of the best pastors I ever had said once (and I have heard others say this too), that we should never listen and just take what is said to us as being the truth. You should listen to someone more learned, take it with a grain of salt, then delve into it prayer and with your whole heart to let God reveal His truth to you. Going to church, a house, a tent or a barn with other fellow believers and having a worship experience is just icing on the cake.
And please, this is not a judgment of anybody's opinion. It is just mine which is worth the price of donkey manure if that much. And it is just the experience I have had. God is a gentleman. He is always there and ready to open His arms for you. but He will never beat you over the head. Some church people will do that which is what kept me away from church until I was 35.
Debbie, I completely agree and that's just my personal experience, too. You said it much better than I could!
Pam, I apologize, I transposed the posts as I read them, and had thought Ame had posted first. Of course, I've also shown my behind this week, some personal reasons have made me not my normal self, so you'll have to excuse my edginess. I withdraw my statement, and apologize for my mistake. I respectfully disagree with your opinion, but as a non-Christian, it doesn't really apply.
For me, I love debates and discussions, but when religion and God comes into it or is the only reason for someone's belief, I tune it out. I prefer to hear the person's own belief based on their experiences, life and background. It's more interesting than "God says this" and "the Bible says that." I want to know what YOU think not what you are told to think.
Very well said, Mommmie. That was the point I was unsuccessfully trying to convey.
Debbie, I think that's where I was reffered to on the issue of being Christian and being part of a community but it does say 'two or more' not church. Which was why I used faith community or community of worship. Church is simply one interpretation of that.
Ginny, that's a good point about Paul and I think you're right (If my argument here seems confused it's because it's not really solid and well formed yet). I think it's a good model for less conventional faith communities.
Thanks Crystal...I know you didn't really mean anything personally by it, but I try really hard not to be rude (but unfortunately, don't always succeed).  ANyway, thanks.
Pam, I didn't mean that I though you were being rude ... I did think you were implying that my experience of being of strong faith despite not being part of a community was somehow not possible. I'm referring to the post you made almost directly after mine.
I'm sure I read you wrong. I hope you don't think I was rude to you.
Ame
Dawn-I was with you. Just elaborating.
I think we Christians get too lazy sometimes in how we defend our POV and we should welcome the comments of the ladies here that AREN'T Christians as a challenge to think a little more about what we write.
Very good point!
I am careful (I hope) not to offend anyone who doesn't share my beliefs. I understand what Crystal is saying, that if you are a non-believer, arguments made by a believer aren't going to have much of an impact on you because you just can't relate to them on that level.
One more question for those who are christian, do you guys feel restricted in how you talk about God in everyday life lest you be judged a Bible thumper?
I have been very fortunate to have been associated with people who are believers like me. I have not been in many debates or discussions where talk about God/Jesus/religion isn't received well. Like with the gay guy I worked with one time, I only talked about religion with him once, and he simply said that he wasn't sure what he believed. I said, "You're still young- you'll figure it out." and I left it at that. He didn't ask me what I believed or how he should believe, so I left it at that, with the door open.
I think it also depends on who you are debating/speaking with, and how you value your relationship as to whether or not you get into a debate/discussion about religion. If you have to work with the person/people, you may want to avoid discussions on highly charged topics of any sort altogether for the sake of getting along in your working relationship. In the case of my grandfather, for instance, every family get-together was a battle of opinions on everything from religion to politics, and my dad got tired of it. He just wanted to enjoy the time they had together, so he asked his mom to talk to his dad about it and ask him to refrain from these debates, and now they get along much better.
As far as going to church, I do believe that some Christians may get more out of the fellowship than others. I understand what Pam is saying when she refers to the growth that may occur when one is dedicated to attending church. I get the most out of Bible study classes. It helps to have a pastor or fellow church member explain things in the Bible to me that I might not get on my own. This interaction with our fellow Christians is one thing that may help us GROW as Christians, and we don't get this interaction if we don't go where there are others who are like-minded and perhaps more knowledgeable than us.
Something more to be said for the advantage of attending and participating in church- I believe that when you do not expose yourself to an environment that is conducive to worship and fellowship with like-minded Christians, you (general) tend to lose the enthusiasm and the drive to grow and become the best Christian you can be. Sort of like when we want our kids to hang with friends who will have a good influence on them, so it is with us and surrounding ourselves with people who are influencing us to be good Christians, and people whom we can help as well. Of course anyone can connect with God at any time in any place. But to share that connection with others is what fellowship is all about.
And at the risk of getting thumped , I believe that the Bible also says that we should surround ourselves with others in fellowship with Jesus Christ. We should not be isolated from the rest of the body of Christ, but should share our gifts and our wisdom for the benefit of all. Congregational prayer encourages the sharing of our burdens, while drawing support and strength from members of our church "family."
Hebrews 10:25- Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another -and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (NIV)
I Corintians 12:7- Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. (NIV)
Galatians 6:2- Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. (NIV)
Okay, time for bed.
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