Fired, then rehired...
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Fired, then rehired...
Putting this here because it could be a sore spot for some.
I work at the Primary school that my kids attend. A cafeteria lady had been given several warnings about getting there late. Finally she was told that if she was late again for no good reason, she would lose her job. Cafeteria ladies here are paid.
Well, she came in late, again, and was fired. Today she came in crying to the principal and begged to be given her job back. She was.
A lot of the employees at the school, teachers, etc, are upset because they feel this is just not setting a good example to the rest of the faculty and staff.
A woman who substitutes was also fired because she came in late all the time, and would drag her two boys in late to school several days a week. There were times that they would be on the phone calling a replacement sub because she hadn't showed up yet, when she would come strolling in the office. Well, they called her back in this week because "they had to have a sub".
A teacher at the school I was talking to today said she didn't think they should have called her back in. It was there responsibility to find another sub. They have applications, they just don't like to go through them and "train" a new person.
I feel like if this person didn't take her children's education seriously enough, she doesn't need to be responsible for a classroom of kids. Her children are always late for school, rarely have their homework completed, and will hardly do any work during class. The teacher has to stay on them constantly to get them to work. I know because I tutored them both for over a year.
Do you think a woman this irresponsible should be allowed to work as a sub with young children? I know a lot will say that she is just a substitute, but to me, it is just as important for them to be responsible. I think that anyone who chooses to work in a field such as this should be held accountable for their actions.
Oh, I agree entirely. The idea that a "substitute" is just a babysitter is all too common, and that may be one of the reasons they don't pay a lot of attention to having good subs. But yes, any work site that lets people get away with coming in late makes it just that much harder on the people who manage to get there on time. And in a school, it also sets a really bad example to the students - no small thing.
When I worked in the NYC school system, I was told that as long as the sub was "a warm body" that was all the qualification required. Sad, but true.
Ame
It is sad, but true here as well Ame (for subs). There is simply such a drastic need for substitute teachers, they will take anyone in the state of Indiana. There used to be educational requirements with regard to college credit, but now all you need is a H.S. Diploma and a criminal background check. You should SEE some of the subs we had!!! In no way, shape, or form did they look clean or well-dressed enough to work at McDonald's let alone in a professional educational environment. It is VERY SAD, but completely true.
It's going to keep getting worse, because less and less people are going into education. Getting ANY real teachers is going to be harder and harder, let alone subs.
Ditto everyone!
In Louisiana, where the education system sucks anyway, that is true. In fact, the one year that I didn't work outside the home, I subbed for Jen's teacher a few times, though it wasn't *official* - meaning, I did not get paid for it - because she did not miss an entire day, just a morning or an afternoon.
And let me just say, though I knew almost all the kids in the class, AND their parents, subbing was no easy task for me because they didn't want to listen to me since we had all been so friendly outside of school.
To get paid/approved for subbing here merely requires the following:
Minimum Requirements:
High school diploma or its equivalent !!!
Training and/or experience which would provide knowledge of School Boardpolicies, rules and regulations as they affect the classroom.
Salary: $7.02 - $9.22 per hour ***It paid more than this over ten years ago! It was a daily rate then.***
Length of Employment: Called as needed
Special Requirements: Successful completion of Test of Adult Basic Education or have a minimum of 24 college credit hours from an accredited university.
Application Deadline: Open
Date Effective: Upon completion of appropriate inservice
And those requirements are more than they were when my kids were in elementary school, I think!
Don't get me wrong, in our parish, unlike *most* parishes and school districts in Louisiana, we have a huge percentage of parent involvement, participation in volunteer programs, Parent/teacher organizations, etc., as opposed to some areas where the parents just don't give a hoot. And I would say that *most* of the parents who work as substitute teachers here, in this particular parish, are *well* qualified, meaning that a greater percentage of them DO have college degrees, DO control a class, and do more than just babysit the kids. But there are those that jump on the substitute teaching bandwagon, simply because it's an easy way to supplement income and be guaranteed to be off when your kids are off school, and not have to commmit to a regular, full time, WOH job.
That being said, I would have qualified to be a *paid* substitute teacher, but after those few times in Jen's class, I decided it was not a good fit for me.
As far as the lunch lady goes, it sounds like you don't really know that much about her other than she's late and everyone is annoyed. I can understand how that can annoy someone, as I'm very punctual and my DH's entire family is not. However it sounds a little like highschool gossip. Everyone is annoyed and talking behind this womans back. How many people have asked this woman why she's late? Does anyone REALLY know? It's a possibility it is just poor time management but don't rule out other things. How do you know she doesn't have a sick relative or something going on at home. I bring up this point because I had a teacher who had cancer and she didn't tell anyone at the school until the very end. She wanted to avoid people feeling sorry for her and talking behind her back. She too was missing or late a lot. Sometimes it's a situation that is just to close to a person's heart.
I don't have much of an oppinion on the sub. It's unfortunate that subs really can be anyone these days, but in my oppinion her being late should not be a concern to you unless your child is in her class or you are the teacher she's replacing. Otherwise it is between her and the school.
 Groove
Groove has a point about not knowing the entire story. I wouldn't get involved in office gossip. Allow the principal to do his job. Do you have any authority to do anything about it anyway? If poor management is the issue it will come back to haunt the principal. Why not encourage good candidates to apply? That way the "there is no one else available" excuse is not an option.
In my state (CT) a BS degree is required to become a substitute teacher. They don't take any "warm body", thank goodness. I was informed yesterday, while chaperoning a field trip, that they are in need of subs and would like me to fill out an application. They know I'm a former elementary teacher.
I'm sorry. If you have a job, you have a responsibility to be on time. If someone were going to give you a million dollars if you met them at a specific time, but nothing if you were late, you can bet the person would be on time!
Work is the same thing - only the money's not as good .
Habitual lateness is inexcusable.
Ame
I find it interesting that everyone at the school you work at knows so much about personal employee business. I would be very upset if I lost my job - even if it was my fault - but went in and spoke to the principal who then agreed to rehire me only to find out the whole school knows what happened behind closed doors. Unless the woman who was fired told everyone she went in begging for her job, then someone at your school is talking out of turn.
Don't have much time, will elaborate later.
To answer a few questions, though I didn't feel I needed to give some personal info just to get opinions on this:
Yes, the person who came in crying told others about it herself. One of my husband's cousins also was fired for the exact same reason (she deserved to be) but didn't come in crying and she didn't get her job back.
The reasons this lady comes in late is because they over sleep, or she can't get her son ready in time to bring him to school which means he is consistently tardy.
As for the sub, it became my business when I was called to come in and replace her at a moment's notice and had to get there at mach speed because there was no one watching the class. I also had to make calls trying to find a sub to replace her and just as I had found someone, she came waltzing in the door in no hurry, and laughingly said, Well, we slept late again.
I have encouraged good people to sub. They have their applications in. But haven't been called.
No, I don't have the authority to fire or hire, but I was just asking opinions on what everyone thought, not whether I should fire or rehire these people.
I don't care what circumstances there are. If you have issues, you need to state them to the person in charge and get things taken care of that way, and if you choose to keep them hidden, then I guess you suffer the consequences. And yes, I know there were no real issues such as this or they wouldn't have been fired. The principal is very good hearted and works with anyone with family or health issues. Sometimes I guess she is too good hearted.
A dying spouse
A dying child
A dying parent
Cancer in yourself or of any of the above mentioned people
AIDS etc...
There are many reasons why habitual lateness is excusable. The ones I love will always mean more to me than any job would.
Groove
Then you can't hold a job if you can't be there on time. Yes, there are extenuating circumstances, but if you need to work then you need to schedule yourself so you can do what is required of you. My husband has a business. If his people don't show or show late everyone else has to pick up the slack. I absolutely feel for someone who has very serious issues going on, but those issues should not be burdens born by coworkers, employers or customers.
Have some "personal responsibility" and take a leave if necessary. If your loved ones are more important than your job (and they should be) then find something you can do responsibly while caring for them. I worked for a lovely principal who was generous with time and "forgave" many things. People took advantage if his nature. If you tell someone their job depends on being on time, they will find a way to do it, or find something else they can do.
So, I repeat, habitual lateness is inexcusable. Find another job that works with your other responsibilites.
Ame
Don't get me wrong. I totally agree this behavior is unacceptable!
I'm honestly not trying to offend you Luvn29 but why did you HAVE to go in to save the class? It's not your responsibility. It's kind of you to do that to some extent but the school doesn't have any consequences for hiring someone who comes in late if they know you/others will just come in in a mad rush. The only consequence for the school is they have to pick up the phone and call you and everything will be fine. Let the school have consequences for their actions. Let the kids sit there for 20 minutes, go home, tell their parents, and have angry parents call the school. If they hire someone who is late for no reason all the time, that's their choice and their consequences for their actions. Let it happen and the lady will get fired...again. And hopefully not be rehired this time!
Groove
I HAD to do it because I really care for the children. Why should they suffer because of her or the school's irresponsibility? Children of that age become concerned if no teacher shows up. They become rowdy. They get in trouble by the overly stressed person when they shouldn't.
Not to mention I am just a responsible person. As a substitute in this school, I place myself in the position that I am depended upon for coming in on short notice. That's why I am at the top of the list of subs to be called. I take pride in the fact that teachers request me to be their subs. And when I finish my degree in a couple of years, my dependability and professionalism will help me secure a job in this school, which is my school of choice. My actions now are definitely noticed.
But the biggest reason, I love kids dearly. And I'll do anything when I am needed. I recently made one of the most difficult decisions I've made. I had to resign from my position as Homeless Coordinator in the school because I felt I was at a point where I could not be depended on enough. I was having a difficult time with my health. I was not able to come in regularly, and even though this was acceptable to the principal, I felt that the children I saw needed stability that I was unable to give them at the time. So I made a responsible decision.
Groove, I agree that loved ones will always come before a job. Any job. But I feel if you have issues such as that, you need to speak to your employer. If they can be worked around then fine. But it isn't excusable to hide the reasons, not tell anyone, continue to have problems showing up on time or at all, and expect others to pick up the load.
And just for the record, I did not participate in the conversation, nor did I speak to anyone else (besides my hubby and you guys, but who are you all going to tell??? LOL!) about this. Truly, not my problem because I don't sub in the lunch room or in the special education room because of physical limitations. And these are the places where these people are.
Oh, and I rushed through my first post, and noticed a huge typo that drives me crazy. I misused the word "there". Should have been *their*. Also, was kind of abrupt during second post because we had to leave for a birthday party!
Let's see if I have this straight. Adena is a substitute teacher in that school. So when the other sub was late Adena was called in and did her job as a substitute teacher - and she gets criticized for doing what is her employment duty and for behaving responsibly with the wellbeing of the children in mind, and there is a suggestion that she should have behaved irresponsibly, maybe so that the school would learn a lesson.
She posts about a situation where a woman who is chronically late gets her job back after being fired because she cried - and only one person asks how she learned this, but there is talk about "office gossip", and "pointers" on how she should find out more about this woman's history and life story before criticizing. And there is a strong implication that she is insensitive for not considering all of the potentially or possibly "valid" reasons for this woman's chronic lateness.
Did I miss something here?
Adena, you and I often disagree, but on this one I'm with you 100%. And I strongly suggest that people not "read into" posts what wasn't there, and ask for more information before commenting on situations if they think they don't know the whole story (as one person did).
(And I agree with you on "there/their" - though my unfavorite grammatical error is the unnecessary apostrophe when a word is pluralized.)
My son works in a lab animal facility, and it's a union shop. Which makes it tedious to discipline people who are late or don't show without calling in ahead of time, or "call out" the day after the superbowl with a specious reason. He has worked at making it quite clear to all of the workers that when someone is late or out, the other staff have to work harder because the work has to get done to ensure the health of the animals, no matter who is late or absent. And that's probably what happens when the cafeteria lady is late - other people have to pick up the slack. And in the case of the sub - well, we all know what is likely to happen when children are left alone in a classroom for 20 minutes or so.
I think no matter what "valid" reason any of these people have for their chronic tardiness, the students, the school, and their co-workers should not have to pay the price for their inability to manage their lives AND their jobs. Lots of employers will make accomodations for people with special situations at home, but (a) they have to know there is a special situation, and (b) the work has to get done regardless - especially where children are involved, so sometimes an accomodation isn't possible. If a person's life is such that they can't do their jobs in an appropriate and timely manner, then they should change their job situation and not expect others to pick up the slack. That's the responsible way to behave.
Ginny, I have to say thank you very much. I was kind of shocked when I came back and read this post because so much of that was questioned. I was completely unprepared for that!
I understand that it is a debate board, but I guess I was surprised of just what was being "debated" in my post!
Ditto Ginny, PARTICULARLY her last paragraph!
"I think no matter what "valid" reason any of these people have for their chronic tardiness, the students, the school, and their co-workers should not have to pay the price for their inability to manage their lives AND their jobs. Lots of employers will make accomodations for people with special situations at home, but (a) they have to know there is a special situation, and (b) the work has to get done regardless - especially where children are involved, so sometimes an accomodation isn't possible. If a person's life is such that they can't do their jobs in an appropriate and timely manner, then they should change their job situation and not expect others to pick up the slack. That's the responsible way to behave."
And let's face it folks, when you are in a working environment with more than 2 people, there is ALWAYS *gossip* and *scuttlebutt*, even if the *offending* person was the one who started it to begin with.
I'm sorry, I think Adena a) did the right thing and b) has a legitimate complaint.
You all know I had mega mega issues with sick and dying relatives in 2005, and I missed a LOT of work. I'm not saying my boss has not been a jerk to me over this time period, but he was informed, he knew what my situation was, he knew when I was going to be late, or not going to be there at all, and yes, I was expected to do my job anyway.
Oversleeping/chronic lateless are not excusable reasons for continually being late, IMO. As Ame mentioned, most places won't tolerate that without a valid reason, and most places WILL replace you if that's what you do.
True, the school should bear some responsibility here, but as I see it, Adena is simply concerned due to the FACTS, has a legitimate beef, and did what any conscientious teacher would/should have done.
I didn't have much time to respond to anyones comments yesterday so now that I have some time I can. Still I think there are plenty of valid reasons to be chronicly late. However I of course don't think anyone else should have to pick up the slack. I think most people here have been in a situation where you have a co-worker that is late and it really ticks you off. Like I said I'm not the late one in my family, so I can understand, (Need I tell you about when my in-laws came to Thanksgiving 2HOURS LATE, which I cooked everything, and they had no real reason to BE late!!) But just like in this in-law situation, I still feel the person in charge needs to be responsible. I think it's kind that you came to the class and it's nice you care about the children that much but that is just not going to teach the school anything. In the inlaw situation, I told them it was disrespectful and chose never to cook thanksgiving for them again.
I understand that some people feel a person should be entirely honest with their boss and tell them things like if they have cancer/AIDS, and I agree to a point. But if you have a really chatty gossipy place you work at I think it's quite valid that you don't tell them. Especially if you can't trust your boss for some reason. It's your personal life and something that the entire school doesn't need to hear. After you explained the situation more I could see why you were upset. Both of the people seem to be the ones who are just chronicly late, which is very annoying.
I just didn't have all the info so I could only respond with what I knew, which was you and a lot of people were angry. It wasn't much to go on.
English annoyance ( when people use a word that sounds similar to the right word but isn't)
advise, advice
affect, effect
aggravate, irritate
compose, comprise, constitute
However it doesn't bother me when chatting like on this forum because I know everyone is typing fast and not really caring about exact things like this.
Groove
Yes I think chronic lateness is a firing offence. I'm not the person in charge of this facility, so what I think doesn't really matter. Did the same person who fired her take her back? Maybe that person doesn't have the strength of character to be a good manager. If you sincerely have a problem with this Principal's management style, you should send a letter to the school board listing these areas. Getting angry and complaining among the other workers won't change this situation. If you don't think it's your place to send such a letter, advise the full time workers to send a co-signed letter.
Bottom line - any employee who is chronically late causes all the other employees to constantly be picking up their slack, causes management and other employees to stress and become angry, and wonder and yes, worry, about *why* this person is late and who is going to cover for them.
I can understand why some people don't feel comfortable sharing personal details of their lives - and their resulting tardiness - with their employers. But, IMO, if it's going to affect everyone else in the workplace, then they have a choice - inform the employer *if* there is a legitimate reason and arrange to work around it BEFOREHAND, or stay home.
Sorry, cold but true. It's very irritating and inconsiderate and unprofessional for someone to be chronically late. Been in that position before with a coworker who was chronically 15 minutes late for NO reason, and for me, someone who's compulsive about being ON TIME, it's infuriating.
And sleeping through the alarm, forgetting to set the alarm, poor time management, are that individual's problem, and should NOT be the problem of everyone else that their chronic lateless affects. ESPECIALLY in a school setting, where you need to have people you can depend on there, FOR THE CHILDREN.
If I were a business owner, and an employee had a health or family situation that caused them to be late often or miss work, I'd try to work out an arrangement with them so the work would be covered. And consider this - an employer is NOT REQUIRED to do that, you are hired for a 4 or 6 or 8 hour shift, whatever, and you are expected to be there, doing your job, on time, every day, to earn your compensation. BUT - if their lateness was due to their own irresponsibility, I certainly would not hesitate to terminate them. My company has fired more than one employee for that same reason, and would never rehire them.
Consistantly late for any job is reason for dismissal, no exceptions. If I were HR, I'd tell her "Too bad, so sad", because any adult who cannot be responsible enough to show up on time (exceptions made for emergency situations) is not of any value to the company/school/whatever.
Oh, and crying to get your job back is stupid... come on, be an adult, women have a hard enough time being treated like equals in the workplace, and women like that give hard working women a bad rep.
Groovepickle, there are no valid reasons for being chronically late. Period. If you have personal problems that make you chronically late, either work it out with the boss for accomodation or to get your schedule changed, or find a job that fits your schedule. Work is not a one-time Thanksgiving dinner or other social event. It is work. And in a school, not only are coworkers affected, so are the children.
Go back and read Adena's opening post and her next post. She was NOT being kind, she was doing her job. She is a substitute teacher and was called in to cover the class because the first sub who was called was late (and is chronically late). She wants to have a good record at this school because she hopes to be hired as a permanent teacher when she finishes her degree. Should Adena risk her present or future job to make the school/principal shape up and be more responsible about who they hire as subs?
And there is nothing in anything Adena said to indicate she works in a "chatty, gossipy place". The woman who got her job back by crying told everyone (and I can just imagine her gloating - I went in and cried and got my job back). The substitute teacher who is chronically late - that's a known thing and would be impossible to hide because this is in a school, where you know if a teacher isn't in the classroom on time. And she freely admits she has problems getting up on time, which is why her children are also chronically tardy.
I agree with one of the posts above - no matter where you work (except maybe, just maybe, the CIA) if you have something affecting your ability to work effectively and in a timely manner, it is going to be talked about. And if you have to talk to the boss about the reasons for your job behavior, it is next to impossible to keep that totally, 100% private - it doesn't depend on the trustworthiness of the boss or anyone else, it's more a matter of paperwork, arranging to cover for you if you are going to have frequent absences, and so on. And it is my experience that most people in a workplace are very sympathetic to and supportive of people who have "good" personal or family reasons, personal or family illness.
Yes, sometimes people get fired if they admit to having a serious or chronic illness, but there are laws to protect them and lawyers who will happily take their cases. There is, fortunately, no protection for people who just don't hear the clock or oversleep.
If I sound annoyed, I am. I think it is not particularly helpful or particularly nice to blame Adena for doing her job, for being responsible, or for asking opinions about what the crying lady herself told Adena and others. Nor is it appropriate, imo, to suggest that Adena find excuses for those coworkers by suggesting they might have some "good" reason. It may be that something in this situation pushes one of your buttons (I've had that happen in threads), and if that's the case it would be helpful if you were up-front about that. If you are just being a sort of devil's advocate, I think it is misplaced (and I personally have never cared for the notion of "devil's advocate" being appropriate for any kind of discussion other than formal, staged, timed debates).
I appreciate your oppinion Ginny, but I just disagree with some of it. I think you're reading into my posts for some reason, maybe because you disagree so much. In no place did I blame Adena for doing her job, I simply said if she or other people didn't come in in a mad rush, the school would be forced to do something about the sub. Go back and read my posts. And maybe you need to be a little more honest in yours, if you want to refer to me, be an adult about it. You don't need to write things like "(as one person did.)" Everyone can read the posts, you can just be honest.
I said I didn't mean to offend Adena and I don't. I'm not criticizing her. I'm just giving another point of view. If what she wants is this lady to be fired, going in in a rush is not going to do it. Why should the school fire her then?
And since I seem to have to explain everything I post for some reason, I'll now explain why I assumed it was a gossipy environment.
"I work at the Primary school that my kids attend. A cafeteria lady had been given several warnings about getting there late. Finally she was told that if she was late again for no good reason, she would lose her job. Cafeteria ladies here are paid.
Well, she came in late, again, and was fired. Today she came in crying to the principal and begged to be given her job back. She was.
A lot of the employees at the school, teachers, etc, are upset because they feel this is just not setting a good example to the rest of the faculty and staff."
How does everyone know she's gotten several warnings? Why are "a lot" of employees mad. I doubt this lady went around to everyone telling them her situation. So how would they know other than to gossip. Does everyone stand at the time clock waiting and watching to see if this woman comes in to make lunch? I find it ridiculous not to assume it's from gossip.
And Adena doesn't have to tell the school she's not coming in because she's upset at the sub who's always late, she can simply say she had previous plans. Telling a school she's not coming in for one day in order to force the school into thinking a little bit, is not going to ruin her chances of working there.
This is not a subject that pushes my buttons other than I can't stand people being late, I'm just giving an alternate view. And it's not for the sake of arguing, or in your words being a "Devils Advocate".
I can't make you read the posts in the voice I write them in. If you could you would know that I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, I'm trying to give a different view.
If you're looking for a cookie cutter person for your board who's just going to jump on and say "Wow that's horrible that they're late", it's not me. I try to look at all possibilities.
Groove
The one person I meant was the one person who asked for more information before making a judgment. My sentence could have been clearer.
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