Wouldn't it be better...
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Wouldn't it be better...
if every parent used their time and energy to focus on being a better parent instead of spending hours upon hours "researching" personal subjects such as circumcision, ear piercing, vaccinations etc... for no other reason than to debate why they are right. This is a subject that bugs me today. While great parenting isn't so great anymore and kids are encountering more and more problems that could be fixed or helped by great parenting tactics, much of America finds the need to "be right" about such personal family decisions. Don't get me wrong, I believe each of these subjects should be researched when making a decision but to do this research solely to try and prove someone "wrong", "barbaric" or "careless" is just petty. Tell me one parent that would purposly jeopardize their kid in such away when making these decisions?
... only in a perfect America right? I guess I can hope.
Are there really people out there that do this research solely to debate it? I would think most are doing it to make an informed decision! Have you been encountering these people lately? That must be frustrating...
Ditto Heather.....
Another ditto. I don't know who has time to research just for the sake of argument except for lawyers---and they pay paralegals to do it anyway.
Ha Ha Ha! I agree, I don't think anyone researches solely to debate, what a waste of time that would be. People debate because they have a difference in oppinions, and I'm afraid to tell you that that will always be the way it is. Let's take your circumcision comment since I'm the one who wrote that. I may feel that circumcision is barbaric and you or every other person in the world may disagree and think it is the greatest thing in the world. Are you right? Am I right? We're both right because that's what we believe. Some people don't debate just to make others angry, some people debate because they are unsure of their own oppinion or because they want to understand why people would believe something else. I don't think anyone on this board feels they are wasting their time by debating issues.
 Groove
Yes, i've encountered a few lately.
(Oh and this has nothing to do with anyone here.)
Alyssa, I sorta agree. It's good to disagree because others learn a different perspective. But it seems like the only time "barbaric" is used is when someone gets their panties in a bunch. How is ANY parenting decision comsidered barbaric? Barbaric is defined as " Marked by crudeness or lack of restraint in taste, style, or manner." You may as well be telling that person they are doing everything wrong and your way is the only way, or better yet that they make bad parenting decisions. People who believe in cir'c don't use any derogitory (sp?) words against those who choose not to. There's a difference between a healthy debate and those who throw out terms to try and degrade those who believe differently.
I no longer have the post where I used the word barbaric but I believe it did offend some members of the group, which if I remember correctly I explained myself. And cerainly parenting choices can be barbaric! I'd say generally parents try to make good choices but there are plenty of barbaric things that go on to children, I don't mean to bring up another topic to debate but for example Female circumcision. Most people in this country would agree Barbaric to say the least (although in their own culture there are reasons why they continue to do it, are those parents bad parents? No. Are they making a barbaric decision? In my oppinion yes! I'm not sure if you have been in a debating class before but often much harsher words are used than that.
I would also like your proof to back up your statement that "People who believe in cir'c don't use any derogitory (sp?) words against those who choose not to." Because as in any debate both sides have reason for and against something. I assure you there are derogatory things out there said about people who don't circumcise. A common one being that babies will get more infections. Isn't that saying exactly what you just described? By your own words "You may as well be telling that person they are doing everything wrong and your way is the only way, or better yet that they make bad parenting decisions." Of course this particular argument has now been studied and shown not to be true.
It's interesting to me that you yourself choose to say directly offensive things like that my panties are in a bunch, since you're quoting the use of my word barbaric. My previous post to this didn't say anything bad about you? It's starting to sound like the exact people you are complaining about is yourself.
Groove
Excuse me, but what is to get one's panties in a bunch? ;)
I wasn't talking about you Alyssa. I never was. It was a general statement but you can take it as you'd like. Anyways, i'm over it. I should have never posted this. I talked to someone and feel a lot better now.
That's good. I hope your day is better tomorrow.
Groove
Maria, it's just an expression that basically means to get upset about something.
I think Melissa is trying to say we're all too busy being critical of each other. Too often we see "mommy drivebys" (another blogger made up the term, but I can't remember who) where we bash the crap out of a parenting choice/style/decision. Some people will bring up a debate to feel better about their own choices, much like a bully. It's stupid, and a waste of time.
Maria,
"Get your panties in a bunch" means to get upset or worked up over something. It's American slang.
"Panties in a bunch" means you're upset, mad, irritated, that sort of thing. HTH Maria
Just my 2 cents.....I most definitely think using the term 'barbaric' is fine if that's you're opinion. I work with so many parents and their children and I find that I've used worse terms than that to describe what I think of their parenting skills. Yes, it's because I think they're wrong and yes, they don't understand my point of view either. That's just the way it is and will always be in those situations. What's the point of debating if you can't state your true feelings?
As for debates, sometimes I know exactly how I feel about an issue and no one is going to change that. I may understand another perspective a little better, but still won't change. On the other hand, sometimes I enjoy the debate because I really don't know where I stand and it helps me to get other viewpoints and then maybe form my own as a result.
Thanks ladies!
Well, without reading any of the other responses, I can say that I used to be one of those ladies and still fight the tendency. I haven't been on this board in a while, but I love a good debate. I think in lots of ways, researching is a way of enriching and learning more than you would have if you had never bothered. The internet is such a useful tool. Besides, they say that if you don't keep your brain active, then it will turn to mush. (Well, they don't really say "mush") They say that the more active the brain, the less likely that it will be taken over by diseases such as Alzheimers. So, keep all those synapses firing!
On the other hand, I can certainly see how someone can go overboard and spend too much time on the internet and involved in debates/research. If it interferes with your responsibilities and there is no balance between family and "hobby", then there is a problem, as with any other type of behavior.
Melissa, I think I get your point, or I'm taking a new view of it. Mothers tend to get over
"educated" on things that really should be a personal choice, those decisions may be more simple to come to and to debate. It's the real touch issues, like day to day parenting: TV watching, Food, discipline, shcool responsiblities etc that we tend to shy away from the big issues and the ones that impact largely on families and society.
And if that was NOT your point, that is something that annoys melol
Yeah, I see what you mean.
The other day, my BIL said "I am glad my son never picked up on the word "no"."
Um, excuse me? His son just grunts...at least Connor can tell me what he does and does not want. He's being a typical toddler and really, his son was saying "no" by turning his head so what's the difference?
Usually people who do or say such obnoxious things are people who never have had those things said to them.
Thanks for posting this Melissa. I'm glad you did.
I just have a couple of comments..lol.
I think it is hard to debate and use words that are not hurtful. But I think your argument gets lost as soon as you do. I think we all cross that line when we get emotional about a topic. So since melissa brought it up.. when we were talking about Circ, the word barbariac was used, it is offensive; therefore, really any discussion afterwards was just taken wrong. There were good points brought up. To me it is different than saying, children without circ are at a higher risk of infection (wrong, but it is said). The equivilant way to state that would be, parents are neglictiful without circ because they put their child at risk of infection. See the difference. Anyway, I think it is hard to take the emotions out of things when you are very passionate about a decision, but the best debator (and influencer) does a great job at that.
Specifically, I think that Ginny always does a great job when dealing with religion and politics. We do happen to sit on the opposite side of the fence, but she has such a great (nice) way with words I always read and think about if I agree or not. But I have another friend who pretty much thinks Bush is satan's spawn (and uses that phrase) and whether or not she has valid points, I get lost in the wanting to defend such harsh emotional words.
I do think there are people who just like to pick fights. It happens in real life, but it happens much much more in the big anon world of the net. I do often like to post the other side, playing devils advocate. Because I think it is very important to see life isn't always black and white. I think it is a great thing we have older members on the board, they just have seen more. I am only 34, but can say that my opinions on what I thought was truth have vastly changed as I have seen a child from pregnancy till middle school. I can't imagine how much I will change by time they are grown!
And let me end with my offensive quote. Some people are just stupid and you can't fix stupid So don't let net bullies drag you down. Do your own research and form your own opinions and know you can only do the best with what you have now. I truely feel we will all make pretty big mistakes in parenting, but we just have to hope that mistake doesn't scar them badly. Never be afraid to admit that you were wrong.
I hear what you're saying, Melissa. I don’t even get into debates about parenting! Our society, with the good intent of improving parenting skills, has reduced “good parenting” to a list of do’s and don’ts. Over the years I’ve come to realize that I parent the way I do based on my personality, dh’s personality, my dk’s personalities, and my personal values. (What dh and I think is important.) Therefore, with this unique combination of factors, our family will not look like any other family. We will not do things just like any other family! Do I ever seek advice? Certainly. I learn a lot from others. However, I refuse to get into the “you’re only a good parent if you do this…” scenario. Two quotes really helped me early on as a parent: (not sure if these are the exact quotes…)
*T Berry Brazelton said to relax, that being madly in love with your children was the most important thing.
*James Dobson said that children were created to be raised by humans, meaning that we could make many mistakes, and they would still be okay.
Thank goodness!! Think about it…were your parents perfect? How did you turn out? Look at the big picture. Obsessing about every parenting move is a waste of precious energy, imho. Personally, I think the best thing we can do as parents is to relax, stop comparing ourselves and our families with everyone else, use our common sense, and be madly in love with our children!
What a nice quote from Dobson. I am not usually a fan on his work, but that is very well stated.
I agree 100% with Michele. Nicely stated!
Yes Kym, that was my exact point. The things I mentioned were examples but not the main point I was trying to get across. Once I started realized that at times I was a critical as others I started watching myself and trying not judge when I may not know the whole story. Now that i've backed off and started worrying only about myself and my family, simple debate topics that would send me over edge don't mean a thing to me today.
Kaye - very well said!!!
Michele - "I don't even get into debates about parenting!" I think you're so right!! Do I still do it sometimes, yes oh yes, but I think it's a better idea to avoide debates about parenting styles.
Hmmmm.... Well, I enjoy a good discussion or debate as much as anyone and probably more than many. Do I do research - oh yes. And when I come across something that I think provides good support for a position I hold that is one I know I will be discussing/debating with someone, I save it. I have a large collection in my saved documents and bookmarked sites for just that purpose. Mostly because I have a strong bias for providing sources for statements or information and want to be able to cite to what I say someone said. (I really get frustrated with people who make blanket statements that "thus and so is true" without providing a source for their statement - unless, of course, they are making a statement about something that is part of their personal belief structure or something they have witnessed.)
Do I do research just to have something to debate? No, and I really doubt that many people here do (except maybe the flybys mentioned above). I have to care about an issue before I do research on it. Nor do I debate just for the fun of it - again, I have to care about the topic. Personally, I don't much care for the "devil's advocate" position, and I get frustrated when someone argues strongly in one position and later says s/he doesn't really believe that but was just being the devil's advocate. I think there is value in seeing the other person's point of view, and sometimes value in presenting different and differing viewpoints for consideration, but arguing a position just to argue it - not my cuppa tea (and, to some extent I personally think it's dishonest when someone presents something strongly as their position, and then later disavows it with a "devil's advocate" quip).
I do think that parenting is very personal, and most of the time I don't offer strong opinions about parenting, though I will share experience and offer advice sometimes (especially when the advice is "talk to your doctor"). I know that I didn't want other people telling me how I should parent, unless I specifically asked for advice, and I assume the moms here feel the same way. So unless you tell me you are putting your child in a dark closet for an hour as a disciplinary measure, or sending him/her to bed without supper, you probably won't hear much from me unless I have some pertinent experience. (This after having done a long post about how our children don't have enough time to do nothing - but I feel strongly about that.)
Anyone who knows me knows I have an opinion about almost everything. And usually don't hesitate to voice it if the topic is one I care about strongly or have an interest in. But one of the things I learned in my years of advocacy, public speaking at school boards and political meetings, and demonstrating, is the truth of that line from an old, old song "It ain't what you say, it's the way how you say it". And how you say something (or your appearance or poster, in a demonstration) can get in the way of people actuallly listening to or paying attention to what you say. So when I demonstrate, I look very middle-class America; when I write, here or elsewhere, I am very, very careful about my adjectives and work very hard at saying what I think rather than criticizing what someone else thinks. (Thank you, Kaye, for the very nice compliment. That made me feel soooo goooood!) Because my goal is to get people to pay attention to what I am saying and maybe to think about it - not to make them angry or hurt their feelings. Kaye's comment about her friend is right "on point" (a legal phrase) - if you use strong words, people get turned off and defensive and any chance you had of reaching them is gone. I don't want to waste my time and energy that way.
Certainly there are some issues that are very hot button for me, and I have spoken strongly about them, here and elsewhere. But even then I try not to use hurtful words, and when I criticize I try to do so with some measure of courtesy.
(But, don't ask me to be frank about what I think about GWB - that would not be printable in a family newspaper.)
Both those quotes are terrific, Michele, and I am going to save them somewhere. Thanks.
Oh, and lawyers generally don't do research (or have their clerks or interns or paralegals do research) unless it is for a case they are working on or in an area of law in which they generally or frequently practice. They most definitely don't have the time and don't want to pay a clerk or paralegal to do research the lawyer doesn't have a specific, case-related use for. Lawyers will save clippings or get copies of cases/opinions that are or can be important in the area of law in which the lawyer practices, but otherwise, they simply haven't the time or energy.
What really "gets my panties in a bunch" (I Love that!) is when parents make certain decisions which they believe are more moral than others and then act superior. They act as though they should be applauded for doing something the "old", "hard" or "natural" way over parents who choose the "modern" "convenient" or "medical" approach. I would love it if people would just acknowledge that there's often more than one right answer to a question or more than one right way to do something. And no answer is really the "better" one.
I hope that makes sense .
Ame
Oh, Ame... that kills me! I honestly don't think fathers have the same kind of discussions. We tend to argue to the point of bashing other people's parenting decisions, which I really think is connected to the guilt we feel as mothers. Like any other bully, we end up bashing other mothers because we feel inadequate in our own decisions.
Oh Crystal I think you hit the nail on the head for sure!!! Good insight.
How funny is it that we recognize that God created children so different, yet we aren't so lenient with adults?
I totally agree Amecmom. It is "interesting" when people act like their parenting styles are better than others. With my son now almost 4 months you don't know how often I've heard "Well when I had kids..." I just don't get it. Shouldn't people just naturally assume that the mother and father of a baby know best since they're with that baby all day and are tuned in to his needs? My husbands Grandma came over once when Eli was about 2 months old. He fell asleep in his swing (which he liked sleeping in more than anywhere. He hated sleeping laying flat. All Granny did the whole time was say
"He's not comfortable."
"He should be laying flat."
I think he'd be happier laying down."
"He wants to go to sleep laying down."
During this whole time the baby was very peacefully sleeping.
Then came feeding time...
"He eats six ounces already, I never fed my kids more than three."
"He must get stomach aches from so much milk at once."
"You only feed him every three hours. He must be starved by then."
"I fed my kids every two hours."
It really is interesting. Everythng that others do now that annoys me I store in my memory bank logged "What not to do to your daughter in law one day." Ha Ha Ha
Groove
I think you're exactly right, Crystal!
I had the pleasure of having my dil agree with me today about my granddaughter. Actually, about parenting. I expounded my theory that when our children are born we mothers are given an invisible backpack into which the guilt starts flying from the minute we hold our child for the first time - and she agreed, loudly and firmly. She is just piling up guilt after guilt after guilt - I'll have to try to help her cut back on that. But she is a "perfectionist" kind of person, and I think perfectionists gather a lot more guilt than others. Ah well, it was nice to have her agree with me on a parenting topic.
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