So what do you think about what is happening to France?
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): So what do you think about what is happening to France?
With the riots.
My husband explained to me that you can't become a french citizen with certain special rights unless you have a father or mother who are a French citizen. If you are born in France you are not automatically a citizen, but you can apply for to be a citizen or you can marry someone who is French.
I believe most European countries, especially West European countries, have much stricter requirements for citizenship, and legal residency than we. But, a large part of Western Europe also allows large numbers of people to come in as residents because they are cheap labor. And they, of course, except for Great Britain, have much less countrol over their borders than we (and we don't have much) because of their geography.
I'm putting in a couple of paragraphs from a NY Times article:
The violence, which has become one of the most serious challenges to governmental authority here in nearly 40 years, showed no sign of abating. Sunday, the 11th night of violence, was the first that police officers had been wounded by gunfire in the unrest. Two of the officers were hospitalized, but their lives were not in danger, the police said. While there had been earlier reports of rioters firing weapons, the shootings Sunday marked the first time that police officers had been wounded by weapons since the riots began.
There have been 77 members of the police and 31 firemen injured since the unrest started.
Nearly 5,000 vehicles have been destroyed, along with dozens of public buildings and private businesses, since the violence began.
"This is just the beginning," said Moussa Diallo, 22, a tall, unemployed French-African man in Clichy-sous-Bois, the working-class Parisian suburb where the violence started Oct. 27. "It's not going to end until there are two policemen dead."
He was referring to the two teenage boys, one of Mauritanian origin and the other of Tunisian origin, whose accidental deaths while hiding from the police touched off the unrest, reflecting longstanding anger among many immigrant families here over joblessness and discrimination. Mr. Diallo did not say whether he had taken part in the vandalism.
.....
Though a majority of the youths committing the acts are Muslim, and of African or North African origin, the mayhem has yet to take on any ideological or religious overtones. Youths in the neighborhoods say second-generation Portuguese immigrants and even some children of native French have taken part.
In an effort to stop the attacks and distance them from Islam, France's most influential Islamic group issued a religious edict, or fatwa, condemning the violence. "It is formally forbidden for any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone's life," the fatwa said, citing the Koran and the teachings of Muhammad.
The article goes on to say that the average unemployment rate in France is 10%, and in low-income communities and particularly among foreigners, it is 30% to 40%.
While most of Europe is not particularly welcoming to poor immigrants, especially people of color and non-Christians, France is, I believe, worse. There is a reason that "chauvinism" is a French word, and originally chauvinism. I quote: The word "chauvinist" was originally used to describe someone who has a fanatical loyalty in one's country.
The damage so far is enormous, in terms of property, plus, of course, the injuries and at least one death attributed to the riots. And it seems the rioting will spread - thanks in great part to the internet and cell phones.
And to add to the fun, there is now a political power struggle between French leaders about how to handle the riots.
For all the European (and especially French) snobbery towards the U.S. in how we deal with race and poverty issues, in many ways we do much better than some of those countries - especially France.
I think it is tragic, a grave error on the part of the rioters (not that rioting is anything but an error in most instances) because most of the damage is occurring in lower income communities of unemployed and working class families, and it will be a long time before the rest of France will want to spend much money in restoring services and rebuilding.
I will be following it on Google News and the NY Times, and will be very interested to see what the weekly news magazines have to say about it. I get TIME at home, and my office gets Newsweek and Business News and Reports, plus the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal, so I can read a wide spectrum of opinions and reactions.
I'm following the story, but don't have much of an opinion on it yet. France obviously has a problem on its hands.
Their long-standing prejudice against outsiders is simply coming back to bite them in the butt.
I took a French class in high school. My teacher told me that in France, especially in Paris, there is a disdain for anyone who is not French born. I remember him saying that if you do not have the pronunciation or even the dialect correct, you are frowned upon by most Parisians.
It will be interesting to see if they come begging to the US for help. How many times have we bailed them out throughout history now?
I am not sure what I think about it. Part of me feels like it is their country so let them do what they want, but I surprised at the riots. But we get riots here to in LA and New York and I think buffallo sometimes so I guess it is poverty or driven by people feeling like second class citizens - ....
I know or think France is a socialist sort of government and I know their childcare is amazing. I assumed their social services were very good. So I guess the rioting is about not being able to be a citizen.
I am not sure what citizens get that non citizens don't get. I guess the riots might be against the discrimination.
I assume every socialist country has better social safety net such as health care and welfare type program than the US.
I think these riots are worse than we ever had so I don't understand it. I guess we had race riots in the 60 but I was too young to know how long they lasted or the damage they caused.
I remember rioting in Milwaukee, when I was a kid. We lived about 30 miles away, or so and I felt safe, where I lived, but it was chaos in Milwaukee. It was crazy!
I took 3 years of AP French in high school and our teacher told us the same thing as Lisa said.
As far as the current situation, I do think it's a bit of their prejudice biting them in the butt, but I also havn't heard much more than what's on the news so i'll have to read a bit more before having a real opinion.
Well - I don't know about Parisians looking down on people who are not Parisian wh live in Paris - but when we were there on our honemoon, I was prepared for nastiness and disdain. In actuality, all the people we met were nice and helpful and friendly and didn't laugh at my paltry attempts to speak their language.
As far as the rioting, I just think it's sad ...
Ame
Ame, probably that was because you made an effort to speak their language, they really appreciate that as oppossed to an English speaking person speaking them in English just because everybody should speak English. And rudeness it's just very French, they are rude even to each other...
As for the riots I haven't read enough but apparently even Chirac said it was their fault for not helping these youngsters enough. Sorry, i will inform myself better... in this and many other things (at times I feel so ignorant!).
Hey, Maria! Nice to see you post ... .
Ame
Um...we're talking about how prejudice may play a role in the riots and yet throwing out our own predjudices and stereotypes about the French?
Good point, Dawn. Thanks for making it.
I think we are stating fact, not necessarily projecting our own prejudicial views. It is a well known and accepted fact that the French are partial to French-born citizens.
Here's a good one. I heard that the French gov't isn't cracking down on the riots b/c the riots are mainly taking place in the poorer areas of the country. In fact, the government just began enforcing curfews over the weekend after nearly 2 weeks of violence.
There is a massive police presence in Paris, however, so Paris is peaceful. Victimized citizens are organizing a militia to combat the violence themselves.
In this country, we would never stand for the violence for one day let alone 2 weeks, even on the poorest of our citizens.
It's a well known fact that American tourists are rude, ignorant and condescending to travelers. I've even met some personally who were like this.
Problem is I've met many, many other American tourists who were polite, well-mannered and respectful so in fact the 'fact' is a lie. I'm sure a lot of people have 'rude french people' stories but they're experiences don't make a general truth. We just remember them better because they fit the artificial stereotype.
I agree the gov't has mishandled this. The response to the violence has been absolutely pathetic.
Dawn, you are absolutely right that is wrong to stereotype. I don't think I say that the French are rude just out of ignorance. Not long ago I read an article about a French woman who was giving all the reasons why the French were different from the British, one of them was something like this "yes, we are arrogant and rude, but just because we are better than the British at so and so" or something like that, I'll try to find it because it was really funny. It just seemed that they took pride in being rude. Many continental Europeans are quite rude, too. Italians for example, you have to know exactly what you want to buy in a shop otherwise they will become annoyed but in reality they are lovely people. I have many French friends that are lovely and don't get offended when they are seen as rude.
The problem they have at the moment i think goes beyond stereotypical rudeness. It's plain racism and lack of sensibility for these people. It's bad planning from the governmenent, actually no planning at all. These people belong to France now, they have been there for two or three generations and deserve to be treated better. All they are asking is for jobs, and a little dignity i suppose. And then you have that minister (let me look for his name)Nicolas Sarkozy who doesn't really think when he is talking and is only condeming the acts without looking for a solution.
I don't know how to make this into a clickable link. It's an extract of a book about how "Europeans believe the French to be arrogant, disobedient, rude and promiscuous, according to a new study". It's really funny and it's written by a French woman.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,,1486271,00.html
Europeans believe the French to be arrogant...
Thanks Dawn
You're welcome!
Though it is off topic, I feel the need to comment on stereotyping. (If the moderators feel that this is inapporpriate and they delete it, I'll have no qualms about it and maybe start a new thread.)
Stereotyping is not a bad thing as long as it is used in proper context for identification purposes.
Am I stereotyping if I make the observation that most African-Americans are dark-skinned?
Am I stereotyping if I make the observation that the 9-11 terrorist hikackers were all middle-aged men of Eastern decent?
Am I stereotyping if I make the observation that all KKK members are anti-African-American?
No, I am stating facts for the purpose of identification by grouping items or people together based on a set of common factual characteristics.
If I were to use the stereotypes for derogatory and defamatory purposes, then it would be bad and I should be ashamed of myself.
The word stereotype originated in the world of printing; it was originally a duplicate impression of an original typographical element, used for printing instead of the original. Over time, this became a metaphor for any set of ideas repeated identically, en masse, with no changes. In fact, cliché and stereotype were both originally printers' words, and in their literal printers' meanings were synonymous. Specifically, cliché was an onomatopoetic word for the sound that was made during the stereotyping process when the matrix hit molten metal.
In modern usage, a stereotype is a simplified description of an individual or group of people who share certain characteristic qualities.
I don't think that if you say that all KKK members are anti-African you are stereotyping. For what I understand about stereotyping it means to generalise about the qualities of a group of people and then say that all the people of that same group (race, gender, occupation, etc) are the same. For example, is like saying Mexican people are lazy and they all wear hats and drink tequila. It's a very silly example but some people actually think that.
Or to say all middle-aged men of Eastern decent are terrorists (not the other way around, which as Lisa said it was a fact). I think stereotyping is wrong when it has negative consequences for people, especially when life opportunities are at stake, for example at a job interview. If an employer thinks that all young women only think about having fun, then a young woman might have a slight less chance to get that job even if she is the perfect candidate for it.
Other examples include the thought that black children are lazy and not interested in learning, then teachers will treat them differently, giving them less opportunities, supporting them less because they are lazy anyway so what's the point in bothering?
That would be one of the problems with stereotyping. On the other hand, I, personally don't see it as a problem if it is done in a friendly way, with people you know won't get offended and when no one is affected by it.
That is completely off topic, sorry.
I don't know why it came up twice, so I am deleting it
I suggest Lisa is correct, in that she is giving the "correct" definition of sterotyping, and giving some very good examples. I suggest that Maria is also right, in that she is referring to the more commonly accepted (though not precise or precisely correct) understanding of "stereotyping".
I thank you both for an interesting exploration of how we think, and how we use and sometimes mis-use definitions. I like to explore words and definitions and how they evolve, for worse or better (usually worse, imo).
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