Anti-abortion yet... (yes politics)
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Anti-abortion yet... (yes politics)
Pro-War and Pro-Death penalty.
I rarely have time to come to the kitchen table anymore, but Scott and I had a lengthy discussion about the Republican party in general tonight at dinner. It's mainly a vent about family and their opinions...to add, I used to be a republican.
My dad and step-mom are starch republicans mainly because of their anti-abortion views and, partly I think because they live a place where they are surrounded by people of like-minds and they like it that way. A bubble if you will...
When the war started, and even now, they believe that it was right that we went to war. It was God's plan...I just don't understand how someone who can "value life" so much and be anti-abortion, cannot value the same life at age 18?
I guarantee you that, if her son were to be sent off to the same war, she would have a different viewpoint. If she were raped and socially "forced" to have the baby, I wonder if her views would change?
I wonder when people could just ONCE think of situations OTHER than their own. If there is always going to be war, why wouldn't they think that there's always going to be abortions? They honestly think that McCain is going to try to push the overturn of Roe Vs. Wade. On his website it says that's his plan, but yet his voting record doesn't reflect it at all.
She even sends me ridiculously ill-educated emails about how Obama's middle name is Hussein (which it is) and how we should really "THINK" about this. Wow. Get out much? Apparently not.
It scares me that these people are allowed to vote. She's been overseas once and had to come STRAIGHT back home because she couldn't stand the Italian bathrooms and how unsanitary they were. She wasted $2,000 by coming home to her comfortable Iowa home within 24 hrs. Try going to Amsterdam where they pee on the streets. This woman has to leave the country and see how people...real people really live. People with AIDS, women who were raped in Darfur, even the poverty in our own country.
If you're going to be anti-abortion, be anti-war as well. These same people believe in the death penalty. If you're going to value life, then value life above all things for all time.
On a different note, my brother is also a republican but he can definitely articulate why he believes in that party. (Gun rights, etc.) I can respect his views because he looks at history and can make his point. My dad and step-mom can't and I don't think they know exactly why they vote republican other than "it's tradition" and it's what our "church believes".
I honestly cannot believe the Republican party has voters that vote for them based on, in my views, hypocrisy.
That does seem weird, to care so much about unborn children, but not so much about lives of people who already exist.
Oh wow, Heidi, you sure put out a lot of "buttons", some of them mine.
You are not going to change your family members' thinking, and you know that. I think most people live in "bubbles" when it comes to politics (and a lot of other things). It's frustrating (believe me, I know), but a whole lot of people would rather not think about why they adhere to a certain position and are more comfortable with "that's what our church believes", "my family has always been Republican/Democrat", and similar ways of being. I say "being" rather than "thinking" because I believe that they simply don't want the work and inner turmoil of thinking about an issue. It's just more comfortable, especially if it means the person is in sync with neighbors, friends and family members and doesn't have to think or discuss. I don't think it's necessarily "hypocrisy". I think it is just wanting the mental or social comfort and not wanting to think about it (whatever issue "it" may be). Hypocrisy, in my thinking, is promoting one way of thinking but doing the opposite in one's personal life (which is, of course, what you think your stepmother would do, and if she did that would be hypocrisy).
It's interesting that you say that if your stepmother's son were sent off to war she'd change her mind. I wonder - after all, McCain has sons in in the Iraq war and Sarah Palin's son is in a National Guard unit that was just deployed to Iraq, and they certainly haven't changed their thinking on this war or, I suspect, war in general.
Changing someone's mind about abortion when it comes home? Maybe - I have read of many people who are adamantly anti-abortion but when it comes to their lives, their daughters, somehow that's "different", but I also know there are others who would adhere to their anti-abortion (or pro-life, if you prefer) beliefs even when it comes home to their families. I suspect that it depends on whether the person's position is a thought-out, deeply held belief in some basic principals, or simply a knee-jerk conformity to what someone else tells them to think. Sarah Palin, for example, has demonstrably adhered to her beliefs about abortion in her personal life. I don't agree with her views and certainly don't want them imposed on me, but she has "walked the walk".
As for the e-mails, maybe you could use your e-mail filters to send all e-mails with certain key words directly to the junk mail folder? You certainly don't have to read them, in any event, or respond. It's probably not worth the effort to try to respond to them. It's good that you and Scott share the same thinking and can vent to each other about your family members and their thinking - or non-thinking.
I am pro-choice...always. Since I could vote. I believe that each family needs to have their situation looked at separately from other families. As a woman and a mom it would be our family's decision.
I am also for the death penalty. If a grown man rapes my daughter, murders her then he deserves the same. An innocent baby vs someone that murdered my child...no brainer for me.
The war is a big issue. However I'm sure every American was thrilled when Sadam was captured. We may have lost focus on Bin Laden and have stretched our troops too much from Iraq to Afganistan but sometimes risks need to be taken.
If Bill Clinton had acted on the bombings/terrorist strikes under his watch then maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened.
I am tired of the abortion issue being raised each and every election. The president has more pressing issues than that one. Let it go already.
The democratic voters also vote from their family ideals and bubbles. It is not only republicans that vote that way.
Hindsight is always 20/20. I also think this country is becoming or already has become too by-partisan....where nothing is accomplished effectively or in a respective time frame.
Heidi, I think me and your parents would get along well. I am in their "bubble".
Comparing volunteer warriors losing their lives in battle for their country and women chosing to kill a baby MOSTLY out of of inconvienience and stupidity??HMM I'll have to chew on that one for while.
And studies have shown that about 1% of abortions are the result of rape, while over 40% is simply because the mother does not want the baby at this time. When you fight for that cause what are you really fighting for? And if we had stiffer penalties for rapist ie mandatory sterilization and for repeat offenders ; death penalty, and better care for the raped these statistics too could go down.
source
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html#3
Also I agree with Annie on the death penalty, really I can't see the comparison, but then again I'm NOT liberal on these things
I am a conservative republican, but don't consider myself living in a bubble but am fully capable at looking at many sides of different issues but will never apologize for being 100% pro life
Heidi, I think most people take the good with the bad when choosing a party affiliation or a church for that matter . We chose the place which speaks to us the most, even if we don't agree with everything the affiliation espouses.
More later if I can ...
Ame
OK Kym, if you want to use loaded language, I say that making abortion illegal is forcing a woman to be an incubator and, most likely, an involuntary parent because, for example, her birth control failed, or yes, because she had a moment of weakness.
Or because, in the case of many teenage pregnancies, she wasn't adequately taught about birth control. For many years I lived in a neighborhood where the culture was such that boys believed it was their right to attempt to persuade as many girls as possible to have sex, and the girls were only taught by their parents to "just say no". I saw a lot of 13, 14 and 15 year old pregnant girls during those years. I won't say that the girls were raped, but they sure didn't know what they were getting into when they listened to that persuasive boy and, frankly, neither did the boy.
Should they have been taught better to prevent this from happening? Sure. But, in the meantime, what happens to them now? I promise you, the systems are not there to provide even minimal support for these young mothers. Welfare is only 5 years max, there's a long waiting list for job training and for child care services, and long waiting lists for free decent medical care for both the mothers and the children, plus long waiting lists for health insurance for low income families or even children of low income families. If the parents marry, daddy often doesn't have a job or his job doesn't provide either a decent wage or health insurance, which leaves them married and in the same boat. And this is in Philadelphia, a major city. Do I think this is a "good" reason for abortion? Probably not, but very understandable why some of those girls and their families make that choice.
I don't like that a woman feels she has to choose abortion. But I am morally certain that most instances the woman's reason is not frivolous. Not wanting a baby at that time could be a number of things. Like, she is only a child herself (12 to 18), or she already has more children then she can financially and emotionally afford and tried to avoid pregnancy but her avoidance methods failed, or because she had post-partum depression with the last child and is afraid of having that happen again, or she knows that if she has another child her husband will simply give up trying to make things work and leave. Or she knows the child will be deformed or a Downs child or otherwise handicapped (and yes, I raised an emotionally disabled child, and have two friends who are raising Downs children, and I know it can be done, and done happily much of the time if the right support systems are available). Or the woman knows that she is not capable, emotionally or financially, of carrying that burden of pregnancy and parenting. Or, yes, she did something stupid, but carrying a baby to term will inalterably change her life and not for the better. I don't like some of the reasons women choose abortion, but I am not in their shoes and don't believe I have the right to make their decisions for them and force them to be incubators. In the end, I put existing life ahead of potential life. I put a woman's right to choose ahead of someone else making choices for her life.
As for voluntary service, yes, most of the members of our military are serving voluntarily. But what is voluntary about having an enlistment extended unilaterally beyond the original contract by "stop loss"? Or unilaterally recalling people who have served their time and honorably resigned? Or, in the case of the National Guard, sending the same units and personnel to Iraq 2, 3 or 4 times, with only 6 to 9 month intervals at home? That is certainly not what the National Guard members volunteered for. Yes, it was in the contract, but I believe this is the first time any of these steps have been taken, certainly the first time they have been taken to the extent that they have, and none of the personnel affected ever expected it or really knew that was what they were volunteering for. That's not my definition of voluntary service.
Regardless of all the wonderful points you make Ginny about why abortion should remain legal, I still feel and will always feel that abortion should be illegal. Even with all of your valid points, in my mind abortion is murder. It's like I hear the words in a debate about a abortion, I understand them, but I see my own baby's heart beating at a 5 week u/s and my mind says abortion is murder.
I don't think the war is God's war...yikes on that one. That kind of statement leaves me speechless Heidi.
Heidi - I totally see what you're saying. They don't make sense to me either. Sounds a lot like my in-laws, who are strict Republicans. They don't listen to anything else or entertain even one idea. It's Republican or it's nothing, which is an outrage to me. I thought I had become a Republican, but I was wrong. I'm still very much a Dem, but I would vote Republican (and have) and I don't think Republicans are the dirt of the Earth (like my in-laws feel about Dems for example). I vote for the best person, regardless.
You do have to take the good with the bad, as Ame said. Being a Democrat, I obviously completely disagree on the abortion issue, but I'm still primarily a Democrat.
Having said that, I fall into the category of your in-laws Heidi...sorry! I'm totally Pro Life, but completely for the death penalty. Completely different situations IMO.
And Heidi, my FIL sends me the same ridiculous emails regarding Obama. I delete and don't even read them anymore because it's so frustrating. My doctor's name is Hussein as well....I wonder if I should switch?
This is why the abortion issue is still on the political table, I guess. If we can't agree here at MV then the country can not agree.
My friend had an abortion in high school. She was young, her birth control failed. She made a decision that still affects her to this day. However, her life and her boyfriend's life and the baby's life would have been a nightmare.
She now has a wonderful husband and three fantastic kids. So she could have had the one in high school, messed up three lives. Now she has a family of five, all doing great.
The thing is; it was her choice. It may not be everyone's choice to make but she was able to talk to her parents and make the decision for themselves.
God only knows if my daughter Kelsey became pregnant today because her birth control failed I would be at my wits end. She is 17, I am getting a divorce, have no money...but it would still be our choice what we would do. Our choice, not the government's choice.
Unless Obama or McCain wants to come here and babysit, make sure she can still attend college, make sure the father will stick around, make sure I have money for food and diapers and health insurance....I'm not sure what I would do or what she would do but she, my daughter, every daughter, needs to be able to make the best choice for themselves.
My feeling on abortion is this: It is morally wrong. However, there are many things I feel are "morally wrong" which are legal - and should remain legal. The wonderful thing about our country is that we don't legislate morality - we can't. There are too many versions of it and then we get into trouble.
As Annie said, "our choice, not the government's choice".
For those who believe it is wrong, who say it is murder, then the choice is obvious. For those who do not, then there is a medical option available to them.
What about this scenario: a wife and mother, already on BC, taking every precaution, and the BC fails? This same mom has been on a drug that is know to cause catastrophic birth defects - should she and the and the entire family be forced to have their lives altered forever, or should they have a choice?
There is a great saying - attributed to Voltaire, but not actually written by him - "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
This is how I feel about abortion and access to birth control. The death penalty, gay marriage, and any other hot-button issue not provided for under the constitution, I feel are state's rights issues and do not belong in the national arena.
All of us are hypocritical in some way. It's just our nature. That's why we can't have a one-size-fits-all government or political party.
Ame
I totally understand what you are saying about abortion, Deanna, and I respect your belief that it is murder. I don't agree with you, but I do both respect and understand.
Personally, I have in my life counseled someone against abortion. The woman who had been dating my brother came to me (a few weeks after they had broken up), told me she was pregnant, and asked for help in getting an abortion. This was around 1958. I talked her out of it. They got married, as I knew they would. They had that child - my wonderful niece - and another child. It was a terrible marriage, for many reasons, and they divorced. I am still glad I talked her out of it.
But if anyone had asked my advice when my neighbor's 13 year old daughter, who physically looked like a woman from the time she was 11 and who was not very bright, got pregnant, I would have strongly advised for abortion. She has, since, had two additional children. She and her children, her mother, and her grandmother all live together. And it wouldn't surprise me if one or more of her daughters get pregnant in their early teens. Would it have made a difference in her life if she had had an abortion? I don't know. I just know that a 13 year old should not be having a baby. But no one asked me, and it wasn't my choice.
I don't think this was supposed to be a debate on abortion. But I will add this.
I am pro-life. I got pregnant at 16 and my boyfriend got into drugs and decided that my dd and I weren't as important as his good times.
I have never regretted having her. There was never any other choice for me.
However, I am pro-death penalty. Comparing a horrible monster who has killed, raped, or tortured to an innocent baby? Nope. Can't do it.
I've seen babies who have survived being born from a gestation age that some have abortions. That "fetus" is definitely a baby.
I understand that having a baby is not always the best solution for some people. I have a one word answer to that one: ADOPTION. No one ever tries to force anyone to raise the baby. There are many people out there more than willing to take that baby and love it and raise it as their own.
Annie- But wouldn't you consider adoption is a better choice than abortion? I completely understand what you are saying because you know that your daughter has a lot of life to live to be successful, and a baby would tax everyone. That's where adoption comes in - to continue a life that was created, possibly for people that are unable to reproduce themselves.
I agree with you Adena. I think adoption is the answer to anyone who doesn't want a baby. If someone does not want to keep a baby for all the reasons stated above (which are all good ones!), adoption is a wonderful and valid choice. I've never understood choosing murder over providing a better life for a child you are unable to care for by choosing adoption.
I also do acknowledge that there are situations where abortion would be allowable...rape, death of the mother during birth, and I'm still unsure on birth defects to the child. Even then though, I have a very dear friend who is a child of rape. She never knew it until she was an adult. Her mother was raped at 17, impregnated as a result, and ended up marrying a good man a couple of years later. My friend was raised by the stepfather as if she were his own, and didn't know until adulthood. Her parents were married for 30 years before they each passed on. I completely understand aborting a child of rape (I would want to), but then I think of this situation. My dear friend wouldn't be here, and neither would her own daughter. I would never have met them. Those things make me think.
I'm not sure this *was* the original post. I also think that once you think one way you will never change another one's mind, and that's just life. There's a lot of agree to disagree on this issue. DH and I feel the same on the issue, but the rest of the family on both sides is completely pro-choice. We're not popular on that one. I have a cartoon from the newspaper that I cut out a few months back and it hangs on my fridge. I wish I could post it here, because it sums up pro-life in one little bubble. I think it "stops" you when you read it, and my pro choice family never has one response to it when they see it.
Back to your original post Heidi - I'm anti-abortion, anti-war, but pro death penalty. I just think it's much, much different. The person on death row TOOK a life.
I'm having a very difficult time with this election. McCain has one thing that I can't get over, and that's his anti-abortion view. His wanting to over turn Roe vs Wade. When I was younger I thought I was against abortion, but I'm not. I'm pro-choice. If you were to ask me today, "would you have an abortion" I'd say, absolutely not! BUT circumstances change. I'm not in that position. I don't really know. If abortion were to become illegal, it won't stop women from having them. They'll just be put in a terrible position of having to do it unsafely. Anyway, that is what has turned me off of McCain. I think this election is going to be a very close one. I'm anxious to see how it turns out.
Seriously... Roe vs. Wade never stands a fat chance in getting overturned. I am completely, positively 100% pro-life but even I know the disaster that would cause. There are many pro-life supporters who know that isn't the way to go about fixing our abortion problems in the US.
Stricter policies.... that's what we need. There are a lot of people who use abortion as a form of birth control. That's just asinine! Maybe if we implemented stricter policies, women would be more careful in their safe sex practices? I don't know, but what we have now is not okay.
As far as the OP..... I am pro-life, pro-war (not this particular war but the initial idea behind war) and pro death penalty. I just have my reasons behind each and I don't see them as being related. Sure, same end result but different reasons for getting there.
I figured as much as well. I am not real political savvy, and I figure that there is so much red tape to go through for over turning something like that.
I also don't think there's a prayer's chance of it getting overturned. Sad, but true. McCain saying he will is ridiculous.
I find my self to be prolife and prochoice. For me, I'd say prolife but you never know what life is going to throw at you. In many cases there are circumstances we aren't privvy to.
I have been witness to a mother who opted for an abortion. It was an unplanned pregnancy and she was undergoing chemo and radiation for advanced breast cancer. She opted to terminate the pregnancy because the doctors weren't sure if she would even live another 3 months, let alone enough to see the baby be born. She needed every bit of strength she had to try and beat the disease. She also had 3 small children and a DH at home to think about.
Don't even get me started on my FIL and his views. He's such a hypocrit on everything. He's a mail order minister who wil argue the fact it's God's Will that men cheat on their wives and the more children a man fathers, even out of wedlock, the more of a man they are. That goes over like a fart in church with me.
Tayjar, your comment on a "mail order minister" cracked me up in such a serious sequence of opinions.
I'm so happy to hear that you guys have an opinion on this. So many different stories and so many good thoughts. You ladies are so smart...it amazes me that we aren't in more governmental positions ourselves.
Melissa, I totally get the fact that there needs to be more strict policies on abortion. I'm also not for this war and therefore totally agree with Ginny on the whole "stop loss" thing. Scott was pulled back into the army with only 28 days notice and, even then, they were so disorganized the whole "idea" of fighting for your country seemed to lose its importance. Which, in my eyes, was so very very sad.
To add, if I were raped now, I would keep the baby and raise it. I have a stable life, husband, and yes it would be dramatic as hell but something "good" would come out of it. HOWEVER, if I were 13 again and raped I would opt for an early abortion. I think I couldn't even opt for adoption. Ginny, you're right in being an "incubator" and at that age I could definitely NOT handle it.
Our family arguments have come to a point where I think my dad is really off his rocker. He's trying to warn me that Barack is the "Anti-Christ" and that I'm not a TRUE Christian. So, I finally had to ask him a few things...
1. What are your top 3 concerns when voting for a president? (ie, economy, health care, etc.)
2. Do you agree with everything McCain stands for (past, present, future)?
He hasn't answered yet...I just want him to think about the fact that we, as Christians, cannot put our faith in anybody much less politicians. And, if we think we're in control of everything it will put US at odds with EACH OTHER!! God is in control, not us. Right?
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