Bush is on the ground
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Bush is on the ground
Bush is actually on the ground in Biloxi, Mississippi talking to the people. Sorry, I am not impressed........ This should have happened days ago...... Five days out... Five days out and they are finally there... *shaking head* I just can't believe this and I can't help but think that this will all be justified away and we as a nation will sit there saying, "Oh I knew you had a good reason". There is NO reason... This is senseless....
I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm looking for an actual answer. What do you want Bush to DO in Biloxi? What can that one man PHYSICALLY do by BEING there? And finding a spot to land and all the logistics involved and the number of secret service, etc. whenever the president travels is a nightmare in itself...he can do more by sitting in the Oval Office and issuing orders than by visiting the site. Is he a morale booster? Maybe, but like I said, getting a president around is not easy and frankly maybe the people don't WANT to see a fancy presidential helicopter or Air Force One and smartly dressed secret service men walking around with him when they are surrounded with filth and sadness. At any rate,I DO hope he is able to boost morale but I still think he can do more good in Washington.
This may better be placed on the debate board. I was on another message board a couple of days ago that was critical of the President and it turned really nasty and was deleted.
If someone would care to move this, I would like to respond.
The problem is that he hasn't done anything IMO!
Not to defend Bush or the government, BUT What have you yourself done? Have you donated....called your local Red Cross and volunteered to be trained as a disaster relief worker.....Called your church to see if they are organizing any relief efforts? It's easy to criticise, but it's the doing that helps.
Bea,
I am angered by the government's slow reaction, and I HAVE donated, and am going to my Red Cross to volunteer today. When I told my husband how frustrated I am by the lack of options for helping, he told me "Go ask the Red Cross to send you, Jake will stay and help with the kids, we'll be fine." So, while doing all I can with limited means, I'm angry that people with the power to help more are not.
Honestly, don't you think it's a bit dangerous for him to be on ground in an area with very unhappy people? I know most of the looting and violence has been on N.O. but still? I guess all he can really offer by being on the ground is his sympathy to those affected by Katrina in person. I too, think he can get more done in the Oval office. I don't think he had a need to appear in person.
I too agree with Bea's comment. DH and I sent our donations to Red Cross and i'm currently waiting for a volunteer with Petco to return my call to see if theres anything I can be of service to regarding the animals over there too. We need to get out there and help instead of complaining. This will be my first time ever volunteering in a situation like this. I don't personally know anyone affected by Katrina but this hit pretty hard with me for some reason.
Actually yes I have donated. My area just suffered a deadly tornado that destroyed 121 homes & I donated to that too. I don't just sit around & say this should be getting done, I try to be pro active. If it were possible I would be down there right now.
Ditto Crystal too, regarding the slow efforts made to help those in need.
From what I heard on the news, one of the reasons he has stayed away is because he did not want to disturb the search and rescue and aid efforts. It takes allot to have a presidential visit and it really does disturb things. He did fly over the other day in Air Force One and was sure to stay above a certain number of feet so as not to distupt the helicopters plucking people off the roofs. That is why I have heard he has not been on the ground in the area before today.
Melissa - You mentioned you want to help the animals. Here is a site to a rescue group that goes to disasters to help the animals.
http://www.noahswish.org/
If I didn't have small kids and work for an insurance company, I would be taking a leave of absence to help them on the ground right now. However, all I can do is donate money.
I dont really fault him for not showing up on site til now, what I do fault is that he stayed on vacation, and while I know that he was doing something, but considering the major cluster fudge I have concerns of what that was and didnt return to the oval office. Even as just a symbolic thing, being at work when something like this happens SHOULD have been done almost immediately. I am angry that it has been a yea when we can get around to it attitude. Civilians are way outdistancing the govt on providing aid and that is a real shame.
I don't think that we needed to have the actual physical presence of the president there. But the military should have been deployed day one. Bush may be some small comfort to a few people. But for the most part as someone else said seeing him on clean bathed and well fed would not make me feel great. He should have left his vacation immediately though and went back to Washington and oversaw that things were being done correctly. JMO
You all forget that although he is the president he has advisors and secuity that probably would never have allowed him to be there until the situation was more stable. Think of that in addition to the turmoil his presence would have caused, as Vicki said. Ditto, Bea - and Bush has donated an undisclosed sum of his personal money to the Red Cross, so he is doing something. He's doing what he can. He's the president of a democracy and in a democracy things move slowly. If this were a dictatorship or monarchy then you would all be right to say he should do more.
We live in an instant gratification society - and that includes this situation. We want it fixed yesterday - and that's not going to happen.
Ame
Ditto Bobbie, and though this will anger Bush supporters, my feeling is he has nothing but canned responses, and I'm not going to even get into all that right now.
Okay, but I warned you this would turn into a debate.
Number 1, the president did cut his vacation short. If you remember correctly, we didn't think N.O. had suffered much damage immediately after the storm. But then when the levee broke, Bush flew to D.C. immediately to assemble his cabinet in an emergency meeting, flying over the Gulf on the way.
Number 2, The president called a state of emergency before the hurricane ever made landfall, Saturday I believe, and made a plea with the residents of LA and MISS to leave.
Number 3, (please do NOT take offense) it is my understanding that there is a very heavy welfare dependancy, which seems to have resulted in a mentality in that area, even among officials, that everyone is entitled to support from the government. So I must ask- why couldn't the state and local governments have taken the initiative, put their reserve monies to use, and acted before demanding that the federal government do something? Every one is SO QUICK to accuse the president and the federal government of providing shoddy relief- what are state and local officials doing? I mean really- what kind of accountability has the governor of LA or the mayor of N.O. been held to? They are whining to the president instead of doing what has to be done on behalf of their own citizens.
"So I must ask- why couldn't the state and local governments have taken the initiative, put their reserve monies to use, and acted before demanding that the federal government do something? Every one is SO QUICK to accuse the president and the federal government of providing shoddy relief- what are state and local officials doing? I mean really- what kind of accountability has the governor of LA or the mayor of N.O. been held to? They are whining to the president instead of doing what has to be done on behalf of their own citizens."
I asked this very question on another board that I visit. I am not even going to get into the Bush bashing "debate" because it is always a no win situation when politics are involved. BUT, I do also believe that allot of the blame (for lack of a better word) for this entire mess comes from within the state and local governments. What was/is the evacuation plan? Is there even one? If there is, what the heck happened to it?? This should not have been such a huge surprise to anyone. The forcast showed for a few days before it even hit that it was going to do major damage to the NO area. I remember hearing abut how it was shaped like a bowl and would fill with water from the surge and all of that. That was EXPECTED to happen!! Now, I do know that it turned at the last minute and it wasn't a direct hit and that the levee breaking is what caused the flooding, but when it is all said and done, the end result is the same. NO is flooded. Again, that was expected. I am simply amazed that there are sooo many people left in the area. Tens of thousands at least. Why are they there??? Isn't there a plan of places to put people that have no means to go to hotels?? Do the state and local governments have no plans for thing slike this and if they do, why are there so many people still there? If the city would have been evacuated as they were ordered to do, there would be one heck of a mess for sure, but this whole mess that is going on wouldn't be what it is today!!
I beg to differ, as far as the city and state level governments. It is my understanding that both the mayor of NO, and the Governor of LA have been working tirelessly to help their citizens. They can't pull together reserves they don't have. That would be like saying if your whole neighborhood burnt to the ground, your homeowner's association should take care of it before the insurance people stepped in. The government of LA is not whining, they are BEGGING for more manpower, more supplies, more ACTION, less talk. So what, the president urged everyone to leave. What are the poor families supposed to do? Start walking 12 hours before a storm hits? How about the sick?? Wheel their wheelchairs down? I didn't see anyone pitching in their private jets to evacuate those who didn't have the means to. It's not the victims fault they couldn't leave. What about the tourists who couldn't fly out because their planes were cancelled? Are they to blame?
What I am saying is that the state and local governments should have a plan for evacuation. That includes some where to move people that don't have the means to go to hotels. It is clear with that many people still there that the evacuation of the area did not work.
Guys, I'm moving this to the Debate board.
OK....carry on....
Thanks karen for moving this. I cant be civil so I am going to shut up.
Well, from being here in the thick of it, and where we get at least 1-2 hurricane warnings each hurricane season (that often never turn into anything more than a big thunderstorm), here's my take. When you are talking moving over 1 million people out of an urban city, many of whom don't have transportation plus a huge influx of tourists, on 3 interstates, the fact that 80% got out at all is phenomenal!! Usually you have about 4-5 days of advance hurricane warning, but this one kind of snuck up giving about 2 days of warning.
This article answers a lot of your questions Vicki. This is exactly what was anticipated to happen, but if you read the article it explains that there wasn't enough money to set things up properly. There usually is never enough money to prepare for "what if"---just enough to deal with the aftermath after the "what if" happens. This also addresses your question/comment Cocoabutter about why there wasn't local/state money
Number 3, (please do NOT take offense) it is my understanding that there is a very heavy welfare dependancy, which seems to have resulted in a mentality in that area, even among officials, that everyone is entitled to support from the government. So I must ask- why couldn't the state and local governments have taken the initiative, put their reserve monies to use, and acted before demanding that the federal government do something? Every one is SO QUICK to accuse the president and the federal government of providing shoddy relief- what are state and local officials doing? I mean really- what kind of accountability has the governor of LA or the mayor of N.O. been held to? They are whining to the president instead of doing what has to be done on behalf of their own citizens.
Louisiana as a state and New Orleans as a city are both very impoverished. Louisiana ranks 49th or 50th on EVERY survey for things like best education and 1st or 2nd on the list for most poverty, etc. I know in Baton Rouge that 1/4 adults and 1/3 children live below the poverty level. I'm sure it is higher in New Orleans--definitely a city of the haves and have nots. I don't know that it necessarily means that people feel some sort of "entitlement" to the federal government or not. From what I've seen and I heard I have been VERY impressed with Mayor Nagin of New Orleans. He is still in New Orleans in the thick of it, like a captain going down with his ship so to speak. He is frustrated beyond belief because he is paralyzed to do anything right now. Communication all over SE Louisiana is spotty at best. Every time I reach my DH on his cell phone (instead of getting yet another "all circuits are busy" message) I feel like I've won the lottery. Power is still out in much of Louisiana so communication, business, banking, etc. from any New Orleans govt or commercial enterprise is almost non-existent. It is simply a nightmare figuring out how to get mail, unemployment checks, etc. to all of these displaced people. I do think that Gov. Blanco hasn't been very proactive, so she and Bush can share the blame equally IMHO. We are finally starting to see the troops move in. I just got back from the grocery store--where I was finally able to get milk and bread--and 3 military helicopters doing search/rescue and supply missions flew overhead. It feels like a war zone here with the constant sight and sound of helicopters, convoys of utility trucks going down the streets, and empty aisles at the grocery store. I went to 3 stores last night trying to find milk to no avail. Today I couldn't get chicken or ground chuck. It's an absolute mess and I think that the mayor is doing the best he can. He is working tirelessly and has not just been whining to the president. With communication difficulties, he is having a hard time communicating just with state officials and does most of that through appeals on radio.
I heard it was a big morale booster for those stranded in New Orleans to see Air Force One flyover yesterday (or whenever it was--I've lost all track of time), but I do agree that now he needs to be in Washington doing what he can there. In addition to getting out the people left in New Orleans, cleaning up the huge mess, etc. we've got other huge issues. Over night Baton Rouge has become the largest city in LA. We don't have enough police, the displaced people here are enrolling their kids in our already underfunded and overcrowded schools (and they should be---kids need to be in school and need that sense of normalcy), we don't have enough food for everyone, most gas stations are out of gas or there is up to a 5-6 hour wait to get gas, etc. Where is all of the money going to come from to handle all of this?? It has to be with federal help---Louisiana doesn't have enough to do it on her own.
hmm... I found this part of the article interesting:
Craig Marks who runs Blue Horizons Consulting, an emergency management training company in North Carolina, said the authorities had mishandled the evacuation, neglecting to help those without transportation to leave the city.
"They could have packed people on trains or buses and gotten them out before the hurricane struck. They had enough time and access to federal funds. And now, we find we do not have a proper emergency communications infrastructure so aid workers get out into the field and they can't talk to one another," he said.
I do agree that most agencies or what ever aren't willing to spend the money of what if's. So sad...this was all predicted and could have been avoided.
I, a stauch Democrat, am about to say something positive about Bush. He did say today that the efforts have not been handled properly, and promised to get the job done. Fair enough, I'm happy that he at least admitted it.
I agree Crystal, but it bothered me that he kept referring to NO as "this part of the world", no it is this part of the US. I don't know why that bothered me so much, maybe because it made me feel like he was talking about an other country.
I also heard that as far back as a decade ago warnings went out that N.O. was in danger of being flooded out b/c of the instability of the silt bed that it has been built on, and b/c it has been so far below sea level. The levees were the city's only defense against mother nature, and it was predicted that, even though N.O. has been lucky enough to dodge the worst hurricanes, its luck would run out eventually and just this sort of catastrophe would happen.
Not to blame any one person, but something should have been done a long time ago.
Bush couldn't have gotten into the area any sooner than today. It wouldn't have been safe or logistically possible. The authorities have to get into the area and deem it safe for the locals to even move about and get around. Move TONS of debris to make travel even possible. Never mind having the president and his team fly into a dangerous zone.
After Ivan we couldn't even travel out of our street because of fallen trees, pieces of houses and live wires. Do you think the president could get to point A to point B over with the roadways closed?
He did fly over the areas from 5000 ft two days ago. Know one wants to fly into the 200 feet range because that is where the coast guard was flying to rescue survivors. Rescuing people that are trapped is more important than having Bush on the scene basically hindering that delicate process. He stated this the day of the storm even when it was still raging on before the flood.
President Bush was in contact with all of the officials days BEFORE the storm, declaring the
states targeted as state of emergency releasing funds immediately. He can do more good from his "vacation" in Texas and the oval office than he can talking to people in the streets. However, it is a great moral boost to have him their along with elected state officials. I know because he was here after Ivan in the neighborhood next to mine, where my kids' friends live a few days after we were hit with Ivan. He was in Grande Lagoon subdivision, hit hard by Ivan, where 17 people were killed, highlighted in the August 2005 edition of National Geographic magazine.
President Bush was right there at ground zero after 9/11 because it was only a 16 acre area devasted. The aftermath of this storm is 90,000 square miles. Larger than the state of Idaho.
I know the people of NO are hungry, tired, thirsty, HOT, miserable but the ones that are looting guns, raping, shooting at rescuers and murdering their own neighbors are the ones slowing down the evacuation process.
Instead of wondering or debating why Bush wasn't making a presence in NO; we should be questioning why the chief of police or the chief of the fire department haven't shown their faces at all. They are the first line of defense and clean up. Where are they?
It's not that NOTHING has been done - the state of the levees is a constant concern to everyone, and there is work being done, though not enough. One reason *nothing* was done a long time ago is that *someone* has to pay for raising/constructing the levees and in a time where 30% of the residents of the city of New Orleans live below poverty level, not sure of the percentage of Jefferson/St. Bernard/Plaquemines Parishes, combined with increased cost of living all around, lousy job market, etc., no one is willing, or can afford, to pay more in taxes to help fund it.
Not making excuses...... just giving an answer.
Louisiana, as Pamt stated in one of her other posts on another thread, is pretty much at the bottom of the barrel. New Orleans has a high percentage of uneducated, unemployed residents, many living in housing projects. Yes, no doubt *some* of them have the *welfare mindset* and the *you owe me something* attitude.
As for housing them in hotels/motels prior to the storm, the point was to get them to LEAVE, as it WAS known that the city could fill with water - housing them in New Orleans would have left them trapped, just as they ended up being. Only there you get the old Catch-22 - they wanted them to leave so they wouldn't be trapped, they had no means to leave.
As for bussing/training/flying them out, *who* was going to pay for it? Who do you think SHOULD have paid for it, honestly? I really want opinions on that, so bring 'em on!
I certainly don't have the answers. Louisiana, and the greater New Orleans area, is a depressed market, in all ways, and I've watched it get worse in recent years. New jobs would help, but for any number of reasons, most of them legit, some of them not, new businesses are hesitant to come to our state. At any rate, it will take more than *just* jobs to improve the situation.
Many of these people are multi-generation welfare recipients and don't know anything else. It's a long-time cycle that needs to be broken if anything is going to change. I, for one, have no clue what it will take to break the cycle. I do know that I have my own thoughts, which include incentives to get off welfare, etc., but I imagine it's much easier said than done.
This is why I didn't vote for Bush  All of his answers do seem "canned". He shows no emotion. He's a dud.
Karen, WE should. If WE are paying to help Iraqis with our tax dollars, we certainly should have helped our own people. I feel like this whole country has it's priorities messed up. Self, Family, Community, Country, World. That is how it SHOULD be. However, we're so busy helping everyone else that we've forgotten our own. Maybe it's not a popular opinion, but my opinion is we should always take care of our countrymen before others. It's the whole "If mama ain't happy..." thing, if we don't take care of our own we are useless to anyone else. I don't just mean that for the Katrina victims, I mean that for all of our nation's problems, they should have priority because they are ours. I'm sad for my country, and the lack of concern for our people.
That is in no way to say I don't care about others, I don't want our foreign members to think I'm sticking my nose up at non-Americans. I'm simply saying Americans take priority in my book, because this is my country.
Karen, I think you may have your wish about breaking the cycle, in New Orleans' case, anyway.
The poorest of the poor are out of the city, will be set up in FEMA housing, in better housing than they have now, enrolled in better schools, in different states. They have no place to return to, no insurance...why would they return to NO?
I think it is agreed - we - the U.S. and all of its emergency planning and service agencies - blew it. Big time!!! Which does not give me any confidence for what would happen if there was major devastation caused by terrorists.
Harry Truman had a sign on his desk, "The buck stops here." Whether the President got bad advice or bad information, all he had to do was watch the news and start asking - where is the National Guard, can we send in military vehicles that can get through those streets, where are the helicopters, why aren't we sending troops in helicopters to protect the hospitals, and so on.
I watched a special on NO and Mississippi tonight. They showed a top official in the Homeland Security agency talking, saying something like, well, if you get anecdotal stories and rumors, that doesn't tell you what is really going on, so you have to discount them. I don't know what anecdotal stories he was talking about, but I have watched more TV news in the past 3-4 days than I usually watch in 3 months, and it's been really clear since at least Wednesday that NO is a really serious disaster area.
We blew it - and the people in charge blew it.
Blaming the victims - the poor people of New Orleans - is just that ... blaming the victims. Why they stayed doesn't matter, why NO or the state didn't send in buses and force them out doesn't matter. What matters is that tens of thousands of people were captive in a stadium and convention center with no water, no food, minimal medical facilities, no toilet facilities, for 5 days.
I cannot and do not believe that "we" couldn't have gotten aid to them more quickly if the people in charge had gotten their acts together.
I agree Ginny, we blew it.
After 9-11 we were told that we would be prepared for the next attack. The only problem is the next attack wasn't by terrorists, it was by mother nature. We had days of warning, it wasn't a secret it was going to be bad.
I guess I didn't realize that it was going to be worse after the storm. I can't help but cry when I see the faces of babies, children, our older generation...just the desperation on each of their faces. The thought that they think WE abandoned them.
Karen, I don't know how true the article posted is, but in answer to your question of who was going to pay for moving them out of the area it says:
"They had enough time and access to federal funds'
Sounds to me like there is funding for it????
Right after the storm, the reporters stated that NO "dodged the bullet" because they were on the west side of the storm so all focus was on MISS. As with the Homestead disaster it takes days to see all of the discruption due to lack of communication and no way to traverse the area. Until the high winds subside, then the helicopters can survey the areas.
Then 24 hours or so later, the levees broke in NO flooding the city. Two disasters in one.
You can not have aid and supplies prepositioned in the path of the storm. They must be out of harms way. This storm reached over 200 miles. We lost our power for four days. We live in P'Cola.
Where do you want supplies, medical personnel to bunker down? Right smack in the forecasted zone? The supplies were there but away from harm's way. No one knew for sure where this storm was going to hit. No ONE. Then the roads where blocked and airports shut down.
I must add that New Orleans knew they were a city built below sea level for 200 YEARS! They should have had a pre-planned evacuation system set up. Also they should have done more to secure the levees against the lake and gulf.
This was a bad hurricane disaster waiting to happen since Camille, in '69.
I don't want to sound callous but let's blame mother nature, years of misplanning and not the president in office.
I agree with Karen. If the federal government had proposed adding a tax on the entire country, that would have been used to strengthen the levees of New Orleans, what do you think the people of this country would have said? You're asking retrospectively for blood from a stone. New Orleans didn't have the funds to do it. The US Corps of Engineers did a threat benefit assessment and determined that the levees only needed to be strong enough to withstand a class 3 storm. It wasn't cost effective to do more. THAT's the federal government talking.
Checking in again. Just want to throw in a few facts.
I see now how I could be taken to mean that I would blame the victim. Everyone in NO is a victim, regardless. I was mostly referring to state and city officials. When I read the article Pam posted, I thought the same thing Vicki did- it says they had access before the hurricane struck to get the people out who couldn't afford to leave of their own accord. Why didn't they? Now that they are faced with a human catastrophe of seemingly infinite proportion, it's no wonder they've already gone through state and local monies trying to get things under control and save stranded residents- they didn't take advantage of federal money when it was available, so now we are ALL paying for that lack of foresight one way or another, and too many have paid with their lives.
Secondly, NO was not originally built below sea level, and has not been below sea level for 200 years. I got curious, cuz I heard that NO had effectively "sunk" since it was built. So here is what I found.
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http://slate.msn.com/id/2125229/?nav=ais
Bonus Explainer: If New Orleans is below sea level, why isn't it underwater? Because it's protected by natural and artificial barriers. The city sits on the banks of the Mississippi, where sediment from the river had created areas of elevated land called "natural levees." New Orleans' earliest buildings sat on top of these levees, but as the population grew, houses were built farther inland at lower elevations. To create usable land, water had to be pumped out of the area, which in turn caused the ground to sink even lower. It's possible for part of New Orleans to exist below sea level because the levees that surround the city protect it (most of the time) from floods.
I also gathered from this article that it may be possible that sea level has risen since the city was built.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans
Until the early 20th century, construction was largely limited to the slightly higher ground along old natural river levees and bayous, since much of the rest of the land was swampy and subject to frequent flooding. This gave the 19th century city the shape of a crescent along a bend of the Mississippi, the origin of the nickname The Crescent City. In the 1910s engineer and inventor A. Baldwin Wood enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city, including large pumps of his own design which are still used. All rain water must be pumped up to the canals which drain into Lake Pontchartrain. Wood's pumps and drainage allowed the city to expand greatly in area. However, pumping of groundwater from underneath the city has resulted in subsidence. The subsidence greatly increased the flood risk, should the levees be breached or precipitation be in excess of pumping capacity (as was the case in 2005 in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina). There were many warnings in the late 20th century that a major hurricane or a Mississippi flood could create a lake in the central city as much as 9 m (30 ft) deep, which could take months to pump dry.
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Regardless, people who settled there should have always been aware of the danger of massive flooding, much like if you move to California, be prepared for earthquakes. Precautions should have been taken many many years ago in an attempt to prevent this type of catastrophe.
Bea, engineers have in fact warned that the levees needed to be strengthened for many years now.
I found this article from December of 2000.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_15_11/ai_68642805/pg_1
Shoring up homes has become a thriving business in the city, according to Schwaner[ Brian Schwaner, vice president of communications for the New Orleans Chamber of Commerce]. As homes list and sink, companies jack up the homes or provide fill to even the ground. All of the efforts seem like a bandage approach, thinks Penland [Shea Penland, geologist and professor at the University of New Orleans]. "It would cost a billion or two dollars to make the levee 30 feet high. A major flood with loss of life could cost $10 billion. What's wrong with this picture? If we know the worst-case scenario is billions and it would take a billion or two to prevent it, why don't we do it? I don't think anyone's thinking about it."
If it were left to residents and city officials, the status quo would prevail. One city official says of the flooding and subsidence, "We are below sea level and we do get floods sometimes, but it's not a real serious problem. You can still purchase flood insurance." Another city official expressed faith in the current levee system.
Penland's frustration with this attitude is apparent. "These are things I've been preaching for a number of years. This town has never planned ahead. They've always reacted and not pro-acted."
Jim Addison, chief public affairs officer for the Army Corps of Engineers in New Orleans, echoes Penland's frustration. "The government's not doing anything. No one's stood up and said, 'we have to do something to protect the city from this eventuality.' I don't know if the rate is so slow and the cost is so high. We're already spending millions of dollars a year on hurricane protection. The fact that the city is sinking is just one extra thing to worry about." The current price tag for the Lake Ponchartrain hurricane system is $700 million, still under construction, says Addison.
Still, attempts are being made to stem the tide of nature. "The Corps is involved in a flood control program called South East Louisiana Urban Flood Control Program (SELA)," says Addison. "It has us enlarging existing drainage canals. Where they were earthen canals before, we're lining them with concrete to improve drainage capacity. We're increasing the pumping capacity at various pump stations." The efforts are not cheap. "That's a $500 million program." Given that the area receives $400 million a year in government aid, that leaves a hefty bill for the region on a project that is too small to make any major contribution.
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So the urgency of the city's situation was evident even when Bill Clinton was president, and the federal government probably didn't act to send money b/c city and state officials weren't asking for it. As Penland said, they didn't care to plan ahead.
In fact, from what I have read and heard on TV, the Army Corps of Engineers had been asking for substantial funds for the levees, primarily along Lake Ponchartrain - those funds were cut drastically in the last couple of budgets. There was also some very serious planning for what many scientists had seen as a serious and real potential done in, I think, 2001, but funds for more planning were also cut.
Stop and think - 18-20% of our oil and natural gas comes from the Gulf of Mexico, through the refineries and pipelines in the very parts of Louisiana that were hardest hit. Why do you think the price of gas has gone up so much? And those of us who heat with gas are going to be suffering sticker shock this winter. New Orleans and Gulfport are really, really major ports - a huge amount of our imports, including food stuffs from Central and South America, come through that funnel and up the Mississippi. The cost of food and everything else is going to go up - partly because we won't have those imports and partly because of the increased cost of gas. The medical institution where my son works got their delivery of food for the lab animals today - for the first time ever, a fuel surcharge was added to the invoice.
An oil company engineer said that when the pipelines were put in, they were underground, under the marshes. (If you can find a map of those pipelines, it is like southern Louisiana is a fishnet of pipelines.) But development and the very work of the Army Corps of Engineers have starved the marshes of the silt they should be getting from the Mississippi so they are dying, and those pipes are now exposed to the Gulf storms.
No, most people probably wouldn't want to pay taxes specifically for the benefit of New Orleans, but we are all going to be paying the price of what has happened to that city - for some time to come. And it is going to be a much higher price than what it would have cost to give the Army Corps of Engineers and the planners the money they were asking for.
I try to refrain from what some call Bush bashing - though I can't stand the man. But look, folks - we are spending and committed to spending untold billions for a war that (a) should not, in the opinion of many, ever been started and (b) was very poorly planned for what happens after we get rid of Hussein. At the same time there have been massive tax cuts. And the President and this Congress have worked very hard to make sure that no one who is likely to vote is feeling the pain of the war (other than those who are killed or injured and their families, and the massive disruption of the families of those called to active duty). This is the first war we have ever fought where our government didn't ask everyone to make some sacrifices - because sacrifices would be unpopular. We committed to spending unknown billions - but no one has said a word about where the money is to come from, especially with the huge tax cuts. It has come from cuts here, there and everywhere - including the levees, obviously emergency preparedness, school funding, grants to state and local governments, and on and on and on. And I will bet $5 that when Congress reconvenes, Bush and the congressional leadership are going to be pushing for more tax cuts, even with this $10.5 billion commitment (which is really only a beginning, folks, and nowhere near the whole package).
I don't know about you, but I am fairly sure that any increase in my cash flow generated by the tax cuts is going to be going for gas for my car and natural gas for my furnace this winter - and then some.
Well, I agree with a lot of what many of you have said. Just because I live in that area, doesn't mean that I think everything that needs to be done has been, nor that all the decisions made were the right ones.
This is going to impact the general population financially in ways other than increased fuel costs.
The Port of New Orleans (one of the largest ports in the country) is a major port for steel, cement, coffee, cocoa, grain, oysters and timber, agricultural products (fertilizer) and other goods. My job alone was dependent on the thousands of barge and ship surveys we did annually to certify cargo weights. It will greatly impact the local economy (further) - we have a number of barge fleets, stevedores, shipping agents, launch service providers, etc. who are greatly affected by this.
I found this online also:
Shipping lines suspend booking of cargo to US east coast
"MAJOR shipping lines have suspended accepting cargo to the US east coast ports as the ports in Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana, including the Port of South Louisiana, Port of New Orleans and Port Fouchon have been closed after Hurricane Katrina slammed the cities.
"There is no point in accepting cargo when we do not know whether we could deliver them. We do not know when things will return to normal there," said an official of a major shipping line.
Some of the cargoes sent from India to the US east ports include garments and food products. The hurricane came at a time when the Christmas and New Year shipments are about to begin in a big way, he said.
The official said that the Port of New Orleans, which sits along Louisiana's Lower Mississippi River, is the fourth largest in the US and the entry point for imports of steel, rubber, precious metals and coffee. These products also get distributed to inland destinations from the port, he said.
The port is also the gateway for as much as 70 per cent of the grain exported from the US. Products such as soyabean, corn and wheat move down the Mississippi River on barges through the Port of New Orleans, and movement of these have been affected following the hurricane. The port is also a large central connection city for the rails and manufacturers carry industrial supplies such as chemicals and parts to factories in the southern US, he said.
APL, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Singapore-based Neptune Orient Lines, said that rail lines in the affected areas have been severely damaged.
New Orleans destined traffic has been embargoed, meaning that shipments moving on APL's network towards New Orleans are being diverted to locations well outside of the area (for instance, Houston or Los Angeles), and new bookings to or from New Orleans have been suspended until delivery capabilities become clearer and improve.
Maersk Sealand, in a statement, which is available in its Web site, said that the New Orleans APM Terminal is likely to remain closed for several days until the US Coast Guard deems the waterways safe for navigation. Contingency plans are in place to move cargo over land if necessary. As a result of the storm, delays can be expected throughout the week for all inter-modal shipments moving to/from and via New Orleans, Southern Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama areas, it said."
Sorry, I know I've taken this way off topic, it's just mind-boggling how far-reaching this will be.....
I know what you mean, Karen. This happens just when dh and I are in the process of buying a new house. He works as a mechanic on semi-trucks for a food service company. and I stay home. It's hard to imagine that, even way up here in Michigan, we won't be affected.
It all just seems so senseless, and I know *I* feel helpless. I can only wonder what you must be going through.
Yeah, I can't even enjoy driving my car now. The price of gas keeps running through my head!
Hey Vicki- I found out about this today and thought you would be interested. This proves our point.
There was a documented, detailed evacuation plan for the city of New Orleans that was not implemented at all. I tried to post a link, but it was too long, so Google "City of New Orleans; Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan" and you can read the document I am copying here.
Here is what stands out:
ANNEX I: HURRICANES
RESPONSE (PHASE II: WARNING, EVACUATION, AND SHELTERING)
City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan.
PART 2: EVACUATION
I. GENERAL
The safe evacuation of threatened populations when endangered by a major catastrophic event is one of the principle reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan. The thorough identification of at-risk populations, transportation and sheltering resources, evacuation routes and potential bottlenecks and choke points, and the establishment of the management team that will coordinate not only the evacuation but which will monitor and direct the sheltering and return of affected populations, are the primary tasks of evacuation planning. Due to the geography of New Orleans and the varying scales of potential disasters and their resulting emergency evacuations, different plans are in place for small-scale evacuations and for citywide relocations of whole populations.
Authority to issue evacuations of elements of the population is vested in the Mayor. By Executive Order, the chief elected official, the Mayor of the City of New Orleans, has the authority to order the evacuation of residents threatened by an approaching hurricane.
Evacuation procedures for special needs persons with either physical or mental handicaps, including registration of disabled persons, is covered in the SOP for Evacuation of Special Needs Persons.
Major population relocations resulting from an approaching hurricane or similar anticipated disaster, caused the City of New Orleans Office of Emergency Preparedness to develop a specific Hurricane Emergency Evacuation Standard Operating Procedures, which are appended to the Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan.
The SOP is developed to provide for an orderly and coordinated evacuation intended to minimize the hazardous effects of flooding, wind, and rain on the residents and visitors in New Orleans. The SOP provides for the evacuation of the public from danger areas and the designations of shelters for evacuees.
II. CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS
The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed.
IV: HURRICANE EVACUATION PROCEDURES
A. Evacuation Time Requirements
Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.
So while everyone is pointing the finger at FEMA and Pres. Bush, it turns out that the responsibility for First Response lies directly with the mayor of New Orleans. So the mayor was on television begging people to leave. "This is not a test. This is not a drill." But there was no implementation of this plan whatsoever.
Well, some have said that the city didn't have the resources to carry out that sort of plan anyway.
So here's what they said on July 24, 2005.
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3kt.htm
...the TIMES-PICAYUNE published a story on July 24, 2005 stating: City, state and federal emergency officials are preparing to give a historically blunt message: "In the event of a major hurricane, you're on your own."
Staff writer Bruce Nolan reported some 7 weeks before Katrina: "In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation."
"In the video, made by the anti-poverty agency Total Community Action, they urge those people to make arrangements now by finding their own ways to leave the city in the event of an evacuation.
"You're responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you," Wilkins said in an interview. "If you have some room to get that person out of town, the Red Cross will have a space for that person outside the area. We can help you."
Then monday they call for the heads of FEMA to roll? What gives?
Yes, Nagin definately failed New Orleans:
He is the man with total responsibility for a city with parts 20 ft below sea level, surrounded by water on 3 sides AND doesn't develop a plan for evacuating people in the event of flooding!
One thing I will say. He is an incredibly skillful politician. When the inevitable disaster strikes, that he didn't bother planning for, he quickly goes on the radio to shift the attention away from his failed leadership!
For New York City I found this:
"Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Monday that officials have plans for mass evacuations in New York City in a hurricane and would knock on doors and "get a court order, if we have to," to get people out."
http://www.wnbc.com/news/4937759/detail.html?rss=ny&psp=news
Very interesting reading. You know, this is exactly what I have thought from the start of things, but didn't want to state things too strong when I wasn't exactly positive on what I thought to be true. What I do find amazing is that it isn't pointed out more in the news by the Bush spokespeople that he is not the one whos shoulders this is going to fall on. I think it takes a mighty big man to be taking all of this unwarrented press from all sides and just let it go. I have heard him say more than once that it isn't the time for finger pointing and he is sure true to his word on that one. The mayor and govorner are going to take a huge fall out on this one. They have failed their city and state in a big way. Sad thing is though that to many, this will always be Bush's fault in one way or another..... Don't get me wrong, I am not a blind follower at all. He does things that I might not agree with at all times, but I don't think this one is on him at all.
Thing is...we didn't have 72 hours of advance warning. More like 48 hrs.
I think it was a grand failure on everyone's part. Certainly there are things Bush can't be blamed for but I think his response to it has been fairly unpresidential on many counts. He can't take some of the blame but he certainly didn't step up to the plate either. From 1 to 10, 1 being absolutely responsible, 10 being heroic he was about a 5. Is that really good enough?
Here is a Time article that is a good reflection of my thoughts and feeling about how he's done during this crisis...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101329-2,00.html
Actually, officials knew the storm was going to be a doosey about five days before it hit. It crossed Florida as a cat 3 and it was predicted to strengthen over the gulf before it hit land.
Yeap, I was following it, too, and if I had lived near NO, I think I would have been on my way out! Although, DH is a newspaper photographer and I'm a nurse, so I doubt we would have been able to leave! We would have gotten the kids out, though, and the dog!
I also agree that there was more than ample warning for the evac plan (if there was one) to be successful.
The amount of warning for THIS storm isn't really the point...
Nagin didn't have a plan and didn't draft one even after Hurricane Ivan made everyone very aware of the problems:
http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/091904ccktWWLIvanFlaws.132602486.html
His idea of preparation was to tell people "Tough luck, you're on your own!"
And even after he was warned something was happening he did NOTHING.
Why didn't he at least TRY to use some of these hundreds of city transit and school buses to move the elderly and poor???:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015
Then AFTER the storm hits he screams "I need 500 buses to evacuate people!"
Even an 18 year old kid knew what to do with these idle buses BUT not Mayor Nagin... duhhhhh:
http://www.local6.com/news/4929516/detail.html
The blame for the thousands of deaths cannot be placed squarely on the federal government.
1) There was no sense of urgency on behalf of state and local government officials to strengthen the levees. The Army Corps of Engineers said it needed to be done, but the responsibility for lobbying the federal government for the funds lies with the state and local officials. It wasn't done. (See earlier post)
2) The huge loss of life COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED had an evacuation plan been implemented by the mayor and local officials.
3) The governor was asked by President Bush to officially declare a state of emergency. She waited until the day before to do it.
WOW...Now Nagin is on Oprah singing the same song.
The truth is finally starting to appear in the mainstream press :
Wall Street Journal
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219
"The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center."
"The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid."
ABC News
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1102467&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
"Instead of sending city buses to evacuate those who could not make it out on their own, people in New Orleans were told to go to the Superdome and the Convention Center, where no one provided sufficient sustenance or security. "
New York Daily News
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/344065p-293598c.html
"By all means, let's investigate what went wrong in New Orleans. Let's start in City Hall. "
Finally!!!!!
Actually, officials knew the storm was going to be a doosey about five days before it hit. It crossed Florida as a cat 3 and it was predicted to strengthen over the gulf before it hit land.
Katrina hit Florida as a \newurl{http://earth.esa.int/ew/cyclones/Katrina_Hurricane-aug05/, tropical storm} and yes, it was expected to increase in power as it went across the gulf. Hurricanes typically do. However on Saturday before it hit, those of us in SE LA had heard about the hurricane, but weren't particularly worried about it because it was supposed to be a Cat 3 and make landfall in the Mobile/Pensacola area where Ivan hit. So, yeah, we would have gotten some rain and high winds, but no big deal.
All of those who have said "I would have gotten out," "there was ample warning," etc. have probably NEVER lived in a coastal area. Your saying that from your landlocked Midwestern states. We get these warning at least 1-3 times a year during hurricane season and nothing usually comes of them. Two years ago Hurricana Lili was making the same path as Katrina, was a Cat 5, and expected to make a direct hit between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. You probably don't remember hurricane Lili---why? because it turned into a tropical storm right before it hit, causing very little damege and not making the news. However, I do remember it because I was frantically boarding up windows, buying food, water, and batteries, and my kids missed 2 days of school. When you have to evacuate from a hurricane it is a MAJOR ordeal. It's not just a hop in your car to leave. You have to worry about pets, medicines, important papers, work schedules, etc. ad nauseum and you get a little immune to all of the hoopla when hurricanes are just a part of you expected life from mid summer to early fall. I've said it before and will say it again. I am more than impressed that evern 80% of the people evacuated from NO.
John said "the amount of warning wasn't really the point" but then everyone is saying "I would have gotten out in time if it had been me." Well, that's exactly what makes the amount of warning the point! It wasn't until Saturday afternoon (maybe about 30 hours of earnest warning) that we really knew it was going to be serious and the hurricane hit in the wee hours of Monday morning. I know BECAUSE I WAS HERE!!!! Yes, I agree that a more effective evacuation plan should have been in place and implemented. I think the city and state govts are at fault much more than the federal govt. But please, please don't tell me what you would have done and how you would have responded differently from your vantage point in a state that has never and will never deal with hurricanes on a regular basis. You simply don't know and it makes those of us left here and VERY tired from taking care of so many displaced people very angry and frustrated. And, regardless, of how much time, where the blame lies, etc. the fact remains that there are now over 400,000 (best estimate) displaced people in my city alone who need food, housing, clothing, healthcare, and education and that's what WE all need to be focusing on right now. So, what are you doing about that---except placing blame and editorializing. And if I sound harsh, I'm sorry. If I sound angry, I am. But I am simply sick and tired of people that aren't personally affected in ANY way by this hurricane telling how they would have handled it. My door is open. If you want to come stay with me for awhile, and you'd have to stay with me because you surely can't find a hotel room anywhere--work in shelters, feed disaster relief teams, distribute donations, listen to the nonstop helicopters overhead at all hours, wait in line for gas, worry about your child's education because there are now projected to be up to 50 children in some single classrooms, deal with a rush "hour" that lasts from 2:30-7:30 pm because of significant increases in traffic---well, come on down. But then, and only then, will I be so willing to embrace your vantage point.
Amen to all you said Pam!! I don't care about the "why's" and the "who's". I want to hear about "what" they are going to do to be better prepared the next time and the way it sounds the next time might be as soon as a couple of days out..... Hurricane season has just started, so what state, county, town will be the next LA?? We have so many displaced already, what in the world are we going to do if one hits and takes out part of lets say Florida?? The powers that be act like this storm hit out of no where and like it was a thing they had never dealt with before. They are saying we are prepared for an attack but this proves we aren't. They need to get off the blame game and try to get their heads around a plan... No matter who dropped the ball they aren't going to accept blame, so any talk about whose fault it was is a major waste of energy and time.
Every state has a possibility of a major state of emergency (flooding, fires, mud slides, tornados, earth quakes, blizzards etc...) is your state prepared?? Are you prepared?? When one of those emergencies happen do you run for the hills or do you wait to see what happens with a plan to leave if and when XYZ comes about? NO survived the hurricane, their hurricane XYZ rules for evacuation didn't happen. They would have survived the Cat 3.. The levy broke, the unexpected.. Would you have been prepared for the unexpected? Would you have somewhere to go and the money to get there, forget surviving for weeks, months or years? Would it be the fault of the people that lived in that state for not being able/willing to get out? Would you want to be helped???? Think of what disaster can happen around you, would it be your fault or the fault of your neighbors?? Walk in their shoes of what ifs and stop blaming the victims.. I think, instead of blaming those VICTIMS we need to focus on being prepared to prevent the amount of human damage as we have seen and will continue to see at the hands of Katrina. The people in charge, whether they are willing to accept blame or not, need to be held accountable to have a game plan prepared. There are people almost two weeks out that are just now getting help, is that acceptable??? What if your disaster happened, would 2 days forget two weeks be acceptable to you?? What if it was your children with out water, food and shelter?? A natural disaster doesn't care who is in it's path and they are so unpredictable that we can't be totally prepared to avoid them but there should be a person in charge (that knows what he or she is doing) to get the wheels of rescue in motion.. Instead of a hundred people standing around saying "you go first, we got your back". Which is exactly what happened, "lets wait and see what everyone else does before we put ourselves out." In this age of technology this is and should be unacceptable.
Pamt, while I do understand your feelings and you have every right to them, I do how ever have some differences. You ask :
So, what are you doing about that---except placing blame and editorializing. And if I sound harsh, I'm sorry. If I sound angry, I am. But I am simply sick and tired of people that aren't personally affected in ANY way by this hurricane telling how they would have handled it.
Personally, I think the American public is doing TONS and TONS of "doing about it" Sure, we might not live there, but don't think for a minute that your area isn't affecting others. I bet Texas would strongly disagree with you. I bet the people of the country that have donated millions of dollars would agree that they are indeed doing something about it. As would all of the other states that are taking people in. I think that everyone in the country is "personally affected" by it one one way or another. The people that are in other states are now going to be seeking jobs there that would have been going to people already in that state...you don't think they are affected???
I don't think anyone is complaining about that. I think people have welcomed them with open arms and hearts. What is being talked about it how it was handled and how it could and should have been done differently. The end result would have been the same reguardless...people would still have to be out of the area. They would still be being moved to other states. The difference is that the death count is so much higher than it would have been if there was a executed evacuation plan. I don't see how talking about that and seeing how it could be done better in the future is a bad thing. Likely hundreds of lives could have been saved. As far as the time that was given for people to get out... I have yet to hear anyone on the news that is being interviewed say that they didn't have time to get out. I am hearing I didn't think it would be that bad.... I don't think the time allowed to get out had anything to do with it. I am also hearing people say they didn't have any where to go...again, a good executed evac plan would have solved that.... How can talking about these things be bad??
Every state has a possibility of a major state of emergency (flooding, fires, mud slides, tornados, earth quakes, blizzards etc...) is your state prepared?? Are you prepared??
To be honest, I have no idea how prepared the state is. I do know that we had flooding in our area in January. The kids were out of school for 12 days with it, so it went on for about 3 weeks. Little by little our river rose because we had tons of rain and melting snow that was in our area and north of us that was running down the river. Our dams had to be held up because there was flooding down south and it had to be regulated. When our last 2 access roads were getting ready to be flooded they came accross the tv and radio and sent out the fireman to let everyone know that we had about 6 hours to get out if we were going to get out or that we faced the possibility of being trapped for about a week. We were packed up and out of our house with in 2 hours... and our home was in no danger at all of being flooded or damaged. AND we still had power. But we got out because dh couldn't miss that much work and I was nervous we would loose power. So yes, I do know about getting out and in a quick hurry too. We are also prone to tornados, am I ready for that? Well, since we only have minutes for warning on that I am as ready as I can be. I have a rubber maid container in the basement with some canned goods and water and candles and flashlights and batteries etc that I would hope would survive if we were hit. Probably wnough for at least a few days to a week.
My point is that yes, you are right. Every area has things they are prone to and you should be well aware of those things and be prepared for them. You need to take some responsibility for yourself to have yourself prepared as much as you can!!
I think Pams frustrations isn't the trying to figure out where the chain broke and trying to fix it. Her issue is all the energy being wasted on the, "who's fault is it anyway?" nonsense. EVERYONE, from the president down is pointing fingers. It is as if a house is on fire but the fire men are standing at the fire department fighting over who gets to drive the truck while the dispatcher screams over the radio that there are victims trapped in the house. What could have been a minimal damage fire ended in a full out blaze with casualties. Now the fire men are standing in front of the fire chief saying, Bill and Tom wouldn't get their gear on, Steve and Rick were to busy sleeping and they all couldn't decide who would be driving the truck. When they finally got there no one wanted to pull out the hoses, or hook them up to the fire hydrant, forget about entering the house.....
The neighborhood had hero's. The man that broke out the window and cut his arm up trying to get to the family. The one that broke out his fire extinguisher, but because of it's small size was a futile attempt. The woman with the warm blankets that took the mother into her arms. The church and business that donated funds to relocate them. All these actions were/are needed (and what we as Americans are doing now) and exactly what should have been done (we have millions of hero's).
But those firemen and the chief need to be accountable for those actions and they need to have a restructuring to try to prevent it from happening again. We as citizens can not listen to their blaming each other and choose sides because everyone that didn't step up and do there job is accountable. They are paid to protect us. They took on the jobs knowing that their primary job was protecting us.. The aren't paid to know when a fire will hit they are paid to be ready to respond when one does........ We don't sit back and say poor Bill doesn't like the color of his gear, Bill knew the color of the gear when he took the job and if he isn't prepared to but the gear on in a time of crisis then he shouldn't be on the fire department. We don't let Steve the butcher to perform surgery because he isn't trained to do so. We would expect Tom the surgeon to do our surgery. We have men and women that are trained and prepared to protect our soil at all cost and they weren't sent in until 5 days out?? We (citizens) as butchers weren't trained yet we stepped up because we don't have to follow a chain of command. (although, I have seen reports of assistance being turned away because the chain of command is to overwhelmed,/unprepared).
Pam isn't mad because people are trying to fix the chain, she is mad because everyone is standing around staring at the chain blaming the company that made the chain, the man that put the chain on, the roads that the bike was ridden on and the owner of the bike with the chain ... And she is not referring to the American citizens that are helping... She is referring to the few, (the press, the government and the people) that are believing that the words they hear from the news publications with out knowing the truths of all this. The people blaming the victims with out seeing, smelling it, and feeling it first hand. This is about victims of a natural disaster but it has become a race, intelligence, stature/financial issue.. To much time is being spent on figuring out whose fault it is that the chain broke in the first place, not the time putting the chain back on, making sure the wounds on the man are being treated and making sure the chain will not come off again.. (not referring to the actions of the common man, referring to the press, government officials and the people sitting back saying "no help from me because you were told to leave")
Wow, all I have left to say how it is amazing how people can have such different views about the exact same thing. And the only other thing is that I have seen or heard no one say that people aren't going to get help because they were told to leave.....
The lack of help within the first hours says it though Vicki.
Mistakes were made, there is no disagreement with that. The leaders of the local government, state government & even Federal government need to just say we are sorry, things got messed up & people died because of it. It is not the fault of the victims, but it is our fault & NOW we need to decide as a whole what we can do to make sure it doesn't happen again.
This disaster debacle is the perfect storm of imperfection on all fronts.
Haven't checked in since yesterday- I think I've been on Katrina overload.
PamT, I think at least I owe you an apology- I can tell by your posts that this is a difficult time for you. I know that this all seems so ridiculous that there is already all this politicizing (both here and in the media) in the midst of such serious need. I have contributed to that, but then I have nothing much to do from way up here in Michigan except read the Internet and watch the news, and donate to the Red Cross. I was just responding to the OP who seemed to reflect the sentiment that blame must be placed. I apologize if I was insensitive. (And I was wrong about Katrina being a cat 3 when she hit Florida- must have gotten confused.)
Bobbie, I'm not sure I got all your metaphors in your last post, but I think I got the basic drift. ;)
Two things we can agree on is that 1)it really doesn't matter whether or not the survivors left when they should have, or would have left if they could have. The bottom line is that, even if everyone had gotten out, they would still have no place to call home anymore- their lives as they knew them are over. and 2) the loss of life is mind numbing.
Maybe we should resume this debate at a later time when emotions aren't as high and wounds aren't as fresh. And Everyone who can be rescued has been.
Amen Lisa, "This disaster debacle is the perfect storm of imperfection on all fronts"
Vicki, It is a metaphor..... And it is the American people that are saying this. "Why did they stay? , they were told to leave, it is all their faults, look at the burden they (not the storm) have created on us." IF they had all left would things be much different?? Because the footage I have seen on the news tells me they would still be homeless, still all be jobless and still all be hungry.
And for what it is worth, the news said that the reason those POOR people where trapped in the Super Dome with out food or water was because the Governor of the state didn't want any accommodations made so the people wouldn't want to stay.. So in fact, someone did say that people aren't going to get help because they were told to leave.....
Lastly, the people in NO were prepared for Katrina and they survived Katrina as they had many hurricanes before her. It wasn't Katrina that killed them and left them homeless it was a faulty flood wall that was supposed to be maintained by the state.. And the reports I have heard said the houses filled up so quick it trapped the people in their houses, there was no warning of the water coming. They didn't know it was going to happen and their was no time to listen for a news report telling you what street to take out of town.
There is more than enough blame to go around at all levels - EXCEPT - I don't think we should blame the people who didn't leave because they couldn't - no transportation, disabled and no help, no money to be able to get a place to stay elsewhere, and so on. Most of the people who stayed in NO stayed because they didn't have any choices, and thousands of them went to the Super Dome because that's what they were told to do and that's what they could do. I do blame the state and city for not having water, food and sanitation supplies at the SuperDome, and not having security there. They have enough experience to know that when you put thousands of people in an enclosed place there are going to be some who will take advantage - heck, they have security when they have events in stadiums, so what on earth did they expect.
I think if the powers-that-be had been thinking, they would have brought in buses, and bussed people to shelters elsewhere when they were ordering evacuation. Yes, no one "expected" the levee to break, but scientists have been predicting just this event, or a storm that would overtop the levees, for a long time, so I don't know why they didn't "expect" it.
One other thought - this was not the first time an evacuation was urged or ordered in NO (and other cities), and won't be the last. I think any store which sells firearms and/or ammunition should be required to have some sort of supersafe where they can store their merchandise in such cases - something that would take at least explosives to get open if you don't have the combination/keys. Or serious metal bars on all entries, bars that would take a cutting torch to get through. Shutters, even metal ones, or the normal storefront bars, just won't do it when something like this happens. (And I would require that of pharmacies also, for their "schedule" drugs.) We will always have criminals among us, and will always have those who see a catastrophe as an opportunity to run wild. New Orleans is no different than any other city. And, sadly, you will find more of such people among the have-nots - though of course, as always, they are a very small percentage but get the most air time.
History forgotten will repeat.
So we need to find out what went wrong so I and you don't have to suffer like those New Orleans people did.
Also there are part of the hurricaine area that haven't gotten any help yet. I am just sick about this.
I do think it is horrible the Fema is being praised by the president. Just sickening.
Ginny, most New Orleans area residents pretty much DID expect a levee to break at some point - that is always a constant fear and topic of discussion around here, especially during hurricane season. What I DON'T understand is why the *higher-ups* didn't expect it.
You know, we took *quite* a financial hit when you total up the evacuation costs and the lost food. We initiated a claim with State Farm and with FEMA. We were just hoping to recoup some of the costs of evacuating. We have pretty much been told that any costs we incurred would go against our deductible on our homeowner's ins., which I *think* is $2500.00, and the damaged stuff we have to replace isn't covered by homeowner's anyway (the roof to the storage building). We are those middle income people who fall through the cracks when it comes to financial aid. If we had more than we do, we wouldn't need it, if we had less than we do, it would be coming from every direction.
But I'm not really complaining - we were given ice, water and MRE's and we will be OK.
What makes me sick is, I see people in the area claiming damages that were not due to the storm, and people taking advantage of *the system*, in the way of getting food stamps, etc., when they don't REALLY need them. In my eyes, that's just as bad as some of the things that happened right after the storm hit.
I have a neighbor who keeps telling me *go here for this, go here for that*. She keeps telling me to call my insurance co. and ask for a check for being displaced - she did it and drove to Baton Rouge to pick hers up! They are buying things like generators and chain saws and expecting reimbursement from FEMA or someone. Yes, these things are necessary in times like this, but it sure looks like taking advantage of an already bad situation to me.
And I'm NOT going here or there for *it* because I think it should be for those who truly do not have the ways or means to feed their families, etc. Yes, I would appreciate a *loss of use*, or *displacement* check, because all of my costs are on a credit card which will take me another 2 years to pay off.
But I am fortunate. This has NOT been fun, but I'm OK, I'm not starving, I have a roof over my head, I have my power and internet back, so to take advantage of the goods and services is like taking food from a starving person's mouth....just my opinion......and keep in mind, like Pamt, I'm in the middle of this, so things are going to anger me too.....
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