To school or to homeschool
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): To school or to homeschool
There is a reason that a specific type of higher education is required to be a teacher/ administrator in the field of education. It is a profession with an array of skills that a teacher/administrator has to learn, ranging from child psychology to people skills to designing units of study that produce meaningful learning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
First, meaningful learning? Here's where we part. I think all learning can be meaningful and we're programmed for it from day one. The radical part of me thinks learning only becomes hard, only needs to be shaped and prodded when a child has learned that they need to be taught. I think of my daughter who's finally reading (and as soon as she began, she set it aside!  ). When I was so pleased that she was reading she was mystified as to why I'd think it was such a big deal. With no lessons or classes put in her way, she simply went and did it. Easy and meaningful. I wonder if she would have struggled with it if it had become something she HAD to learn by a certain time in school.
The reason we need trained teachers is because they need specific training to teach the large classes of diverse people that are in school. They need training on a wide variety of learning styles, management ideas, etc. It's a demanding occupation.
Homeschooling is nothing like a school. Even the more disciplined forms find the skills involved are very different. You don't have 25 kids, you have 1 or 3 or 5. You know them and how they learn intimately. You don't only have a certain number of hours in a certain number of days, you have all the time you need. You don't ness. need methods of giving or tracking grades, you know where they are.
The unschooling email list I'm on includes half a dozen former teachers and an english professor. The Canadian 'all styles' list I'm on has quite a few teachers as well (I've never counted but they're always popping up). The consensus seems to be that their training was worse than useless when it came to homeschooling, that in fact they had to actively forget much of their training because it was simply of no use or even hindering homeschooling.
If 'anyone' could and should be doing it, we wouldn't have entire collegiate programs dedicated to the field of education, and no degree or higher education would be required.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, the training and degrees are for teaching in schools. Teaching is to homeschooling as a Harley is to a pedal bike.
I agree with Vicki that homeschooling would not work for everyone, no way. I'm sure it works for many, but 'what works' can also be a matter of opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Agreed. I'm betting my idea of 'what works' is on the crazy side of flaky for you. ;)
As far as what I mentioned above about allowing Robin the 'easy way out' - I want to reiterate again that I don't know this child's history and I don't know him personally, however I do know that in the real world he won't just be able to not to go to work because it's stressful or because he doesn't feel comfortable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually, there's stress leave for adults. Mental health is becoming an important issue in the workforce. Not so for kids.
Adults have the choice to switch jobs if the job they have is detrimental to their mental health. Again, not so for kids.
I would hope my children would recognize an unhealthy work environment and have the strength to leave it behind them. They don't have to put up with that.
And besides, I'm raising people, not employees.
In the real world he will have to interact with people that he doesn't like and that don't treat him well when he's feeling happy or down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In the real world? See, my kids are already there. They go shopping with me, interact with our neighbours, travel the community. They don't live in a utopia that will be shattered when they enter the real world...they are IN the real world.
Ever since I left school I have never been in a job or club or any situation that remotely resembled school (and I was even active in politics for 10 years!! ;).
Anyway, I think the best way to prepare my kids for their independence is to let them know who they are, be confident in their abilities, and have a lot of joy in childhood. I don't think children get strong in situations that expose them to adversity or cruelty (and what a weird argument FOR school), I think they just wither.
Again, I don't agree with homeschooling, but if one were going to decide to do it I think the reasons should be based on educational value and curriculum, not a child's feelings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
And I think a child's feelings are paramount. People grow up not trusting themselves, not knowing themselves, not loving themselves. Sure, they got their advanced math credit and can diagram a sentence like nobody's business but to put that before ensuring a child has their feelings respected, has what they need to become a secure person seems to me to be picking out curtains for your house when you haven't even bothered pouring the foundation.
I know that by unschooling my kids are not going to get some of what they might get in school in terms of academics (actually, I don't know that. My daughter has this keen talent for math and logic that I just love to watch in action. I'm betting she'll love the advanced stuff) but they will have a good sense of the importance of their own feeling and decisions.
Algebra and the Industrial Age in Britain will always be there to learn, esp. if my kids stay the motivated learners they have always been. Their childhood is fleeting.
There you go. My flaky, radical ramblings. And a disclaimer, though I put homeschooling in the title it's very much from an unschooling view and we're viewed as the nutty cousins by many in the homeschooling family. Maybe some more conventional homeschoolers will chime in as well?
Oh shoot. I edited the misspellings and stuff out and then I went and hit the post button on the wrong version. Shoot again.
Just some observations I have made throughout the years regarding homeschooling.....
* many people talk about homeschooling their 2 or 3 year old children....don't we all? Unless they are enrolled in some kind of full time day care situation, in essence aren't all mothers of children under 'official' school age home schooling?
* many seem to choose to homeschool based on preconceived notions about school. My sil used to talk about HAVING to homeschool cause in California, they allowed such and such in the schools and that was against her beliefs. Fine, but she lived in Florida.
* they haven't even checked out what the schools in THEIR area would be like, automatically assuming they would fall short of the desired effect.
*assuming that being in a classroom setting with other children will somehow stifle their natural curiosity for learning
* assuming that being in a classroom will expose their children to all sorts of 'bad elements'
I have also noticed that in some instances, not all, but certainly enough to notice, that some parents rather than discipline their child (ie for biting, acting out, being disruptive..and this is usually a preschool or kindergartner) they will choose to homeschool claiming that the school failed their child.
I think it's fine either way, but I can't fathom making a choice on either side without fully exploring both options.
Okay well I will join in on this. I am a former teacher, looked into homeschooling at one time and then taught a church class with several homeschoolers in it. I am not a huge homeschooling fan, but do know for some kids and some families it is the right choice. We are not there right now.
Why not homeschooling? Well in general what school is about isn't so much what you learn (although that can be important) but it about learning to organize, prioritize, and socialize. Yes I know you can do all these things homeschooling, but most people don't.
Organizing, this is a key factor for me. If you have it, life is so much better, if you don't life is hard, I don't have it, I can't teach it, I know my kids need it. One kid is BO (born organized) My other two are like me, they need solid teaching in this area and frankly if I could teach it I would learn it myself!
Prioritizing, work is about getting the right things done at the right time. Not on your whim, not on your scheudule. And most of the time it doesn't even make sense. So it is your job to find that input logical or not and follow directions and prioritize correctly. By homeschooling it is so child led they don't often see the other side. Sometimes the why is because you are told to, not for any other real reason. Again, some people do this better than others.
Socialize, this is the tricky one. As parents we see kids playing, interacting and say see they socialize. Well there is just so much more to it. Yes that is important. But social skills aren't just getting along, but how to manage in a disagreement, how to work with others you don't like, how to deal with a boss who is a cheat, etc. We learn just as many if not more lessons by things gone wrong, then nice little play groups.
One overwhelming thing that I saw from kids that I knew were homeschooled. They in general lacked a respect for other adults, they tended to be very narrow minded. Ultimately our kids really are blessed by hearing several view points and then knowing why we believe what we do. If you go to work, you will eventually have to work for the boss from heck. Whether you agree with him or not you still have to do your job. It may be short term while you job shop, but just quiting isn't always an option. I feel like kids really need the experience of different adults and different kids and not just raised in a bubble. I do honestly like my little bubble best, but I don't feel like it does them any favors.
And then college, so many of us thing college is this great learning place. Well it is, but it is so much more. People who graduate college are people who learned that sometimes life gives you lemons, sometimes you just get the peels, but either way you have to get through. It shows you have the tenacity to work through long term problems and get the job done.
Anyway, I think there can be a balance, but I think it is hard. I think children need time to grow and mature and the public school can push too fast, but I also think a lot of homeschool parents can do the same, or not push enough. I think of babies, eventually all children will feed themselves, is it better to teach a baby to hold it's bottle at 3 months or at a year? It really depends on your life. I held my babies and they really never held their own bottles, my cousin on the other hand starts at days old placing their hands and her kids held their own bottles by 6 months. So I had to compensate, if they weren't learning this skill with bottle feeding, then I had to let them get grasping skills on toys, feeding with snacks etc. My cousin needed to make sure she spent time developing their mommy time, holding talking reading more. We all have gifts and strengths and we all have weaknesses. To educate our children well we have to teach them that. And when we hit a weakness what are we going to do, for me that weakness is met by public education.
My other big pet peeve....gee this is going to be a long post..lol...I hate the stero type the public ed people get from the homeschoolers. You know I do send my kids to school everyday, they mostly love it. But I do not love them any less, I enjoy my time with them, heck I even miss them during the day (at least some of the days). We do lots of "unschooling" at home. If my child comes home and says today we talked about states, where were you born, we can spend hours looking at interesting facts on the internet, looking through photo albums or doing an entire geneology type unit at home. Strangely enough I still have time. I feel like a lot of homeschoolers feel like parents don't have the time or desire to watch their children learn. But for me that is not true. Maybe not every day, but plenty of days we do lots of educational child led fun stuff. So I feel like my kids get the best of both worlds.
As a general rule, I am not a huge fan of the home school method either. That being said, I am sure that there are some out there that it is great for and that do a great job. I didn't say that I don't think anyone should home school. I do think that in recent years it has seen an explosion of people doing it and I am concerned about what that will bring us to is 10 to 15 years. Now, I know that home schooling has been going on for years and people can find all kinds of research to tell me how wonderful it is and how those kids are equal to or more advanced than public or private schooled kids, but I am talking about the ones that have started in the past say 5 to 7 years. I also believe that the states need to be a little more involved than they are on checking on these kids to make sure they are on target. My dd has to take tests at different grade levels to make sure the schools are doing their jobs. I feel that home schooled children should have to take the same tests to see if the parents are doing the same job. I think there needs to be a little more accountability on the parents to show they are indeed teaching at grade level and their kids are not behind. I am not talking about a test that is mailed to the home, or done on the computer. But those home schooled kids should meet at a school or church or something and take the test that is over seen by someone with the state or someone. Again, I know that people can find me all kids of numbers and stats about how wonderful home schooling is, but I am sure if I looked around long enough, I could find research that is on the other side of it too. I am more concerned with the sheer volume of people doing it now. I will be really curious to see studies of the kids that are 5 to 10 now that are home schooled and see what the stats are when they graduate and try to enter college.
As I said before, I do think it is right for some people. I won't deny that.
* many people talk about homeschooling their 2 or 3 year old children....don't we all? Unless they are enrolled in some kind of full time day care situation, in essence aren't all mothers of children under 'official' school age home schooling?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree.
* many seem to choose to homeschool based on preconceived notions about school
I agree. But often those ideas were shaped by their loads of experience IN school. Which is more than most people who has preconceived notions about HSing can say.
* they haven't even checked out what the schools in THEIR area would be like, automatically assuming they would fall short of the desired effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Most homeschoolers I know have checked local schools, even had kids in local schools.
*assuming that being in a classroom setting with other children will somehow stifle their natural curiosity for learning
* assuming that being in a classroom will expose their children to all sorts of 'bad elements'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And aren't these valid concerns? I realize you're making the point that these are sometimes unresearched assumptions. I've been thinking about that too. I think the first reaction to a question about why a family homeschools is to offer up a reason for not going to school, as if it's always the preffered choice and HSing should only be considered if it's not up to snuff.
Those were some of my concerns in the beginning, esp. the first. But we have an excellent little elementry school in our community I've since learned. So why still homeschool? It's become a diffeent lifestyle, one I prefer (and I do have experience with the school lifestyle, 13 yrs of it) It offers different fredoms and choices that out family really loves. It's not a choice made in the absence of a good school, it's an absolutely equal choice generally and a superior one for us specifically.
I have also noticed that in some instances, not all, but certainly enough to notice, that some parents rather than discipline their child (ie for biting, acting out, being disruptive..and this is usually a preschool or kindergartner) they will choose to homeschool claiming that the school failed their child.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, as a choice, hasn't it? It's not set up for boisterous kids who act up. That kind of behaviour isn't acceptable. If a parent can offer the child an alternative, why not? I hear stories like that as well and often it's a case of a child who's like that in school but not at home. When is it a problem a parent should take in hand to help a child conform and when it is a problem of putting a child in an environment they're not suited for?
Organizing, this is a key factor for me. If you have it, life is so much better, if you don't life is hard, I don't have it, I can't teach it, I know my kids need it. One kid is BO (born organized) My other two are like me, they need solid teaching in this area and frankly if I could teach it I would learn it myself!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My approach is to learn it and model it.
Not teach it. I think school can lay a grid of organization over a childs life but often when it's removed young adults can flounder. Same with prioritization. It's not a system that always help a child build these skills within themselves.
And maybe it's why the 'real world' seems to be so much of a shock to so many kids.
At a bookstore I used to work at the manager always prfered hiring older women to kids in or just out of school precisely because they school kids didn't have the skills you mentioned.
Prioritizing, work is about getting the right things done at the right time. Not on your whim, not on your scheudule. And most of the time it doesn't even make sense. So it is your job to find that input logical or not and follow directions and prioritize correctly. By homeschooling it is so child led they don't often see the other side. Sometimes the why is because you are told to, not for any other real reason. Again, some people do this better than others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There's no, 'because I said so,' in our house. I ask a lot of my kids but I try to give them an honest reason for it all. My kids will not follow 'just because' type orders and that's where it may seem they don't see the other side but if they're offered a logical, not self serving, reason they have no problem at all.
Socialize, this is the tricky one. As parents we see kids playing, interacting and say see they socialize. Well there is just so much more to it. Yes that is important. But social skills aren't just getting along, but how to manage in a disagreement, how to work with others you don't like, how to deal with a boss who is a cheat, etc. We learn just as many if not more lessons by things gone wrong, then nice little play groups.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have never been in a situation as an adult that reflected what I experienced in school. Never had a boss that expected obdience in the way a teacher does, never been in a group of 30 of my exact peers where all clues of peer authority (age, relationship) were gone so that we had to sort it out ourselves. Never.
But my kids still learn about socializing because it's not limited to nice little playgroups. they learn how to manage disagreements by working with their sibling and me when one pops up. They learn to work with others they don't like in dance classes or other activities. They'll likely learn how to deal with a boss who's a cheat faster then most becasue they'll have the time to work more then most kids.
But how would a kid in school learn to deal with the boss who's a cheat? the closest equivilent is a teacher and what resources does a kid have to confront or deal with a teacher?
One overwhelming thing that I saw from kids that I knew were homeschooled. They in general lacked a respect for other adults, they tended to be very narrow minded.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have not seen this. I have seen kids who treat adults as equals, meet their eyes when they talk, aren't afraid of them. But they are kind and respectful. I'm not sure about the narrowmindedness either. In what respect?
Ultimately our kids really are blessed by hearing several view points and then knowing why we believe what we do. If you go to work, you will eventually have to work for the boss from heck. Whether you agree with him or not you still have to do your job. It may be short term while you job shop, but just quiting isn't always an option. I feel like kids really need the experience of different adults and different kids and not just raised in a bubble. I do honestly like my little bubble best, but I don't feel like it does them any favors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is always the strangest thing for me to hear. A bubble? Where? My kids live thier lifes beside me, go to the library, go shopping, engage in community events, chat up the neighbours. Learn to deal with life by living life.
Where is the bubble? Honestly to me, it's school. Where kids are put to be served what little bits of life we deem developmentally appropriate. My neighbours kid may be thrilled to tell us how they've set up a class bank. Meanwhile my daughter goes to the bank, deals with fellow customers and with tellers.
And then college, so many of us thing college is this great learning place. Well it is, but it is so much more. People who graduate college are people who learned that sometimes life gives you lemons, sometimes you just get the peels, but either way you have to get through. It shows you have the tenacity to work through long term problems and get the job done.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
College? Well that's a different thing and my kids business, not mine.
Anyway, I think there can be a balance, but I think it is hard. I think children need time to grow and mature and the public school can push too fast, but I also think a lot of homeschool parents can do the same, or not push enough. I think of babies, eventually all children will feed themselves, is it better to teach a baby to hold it's bottle at 3 months or at a year?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I nursed so I have no opinion on bottles.
I feel like a lot of homeschoolers feel like parents don't have the time or desire to watch their children learn. But for me that is not true. Maybe not every day, but plenty of days we do lots of educational child led fun stuff. So I feel like my kids get the best of both worlds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My parents were like you. It's what led me to homeschooling I think. They made it clear that learning was not something limited to school and was a joy to share with ones you love. I agree it's a cruel stereotype.
Now, I know that home schooling has been going on for years and people can find all kinds of research to tell me how wonderful it is and how those kids are equal to or more advanced than public or private schooled kids
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I'm always sceptical of those studies. And I think they lead in the wrong direction anyway, at least for me. I'm homeschooling in part because I don't believe in the academic standards in place, not so my kid can beat schooled kids.
I also believe that the states need to be a little more involved than they are on checking on these kids to make sure they are on target. My dd has to take tests at different grade levels to make sure the schools are doing their jobs. I feel that home schooled children should have to take the same tests to see if the parents are doing the same job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We're not doing the same job. Many Hsing parents have very different ideas and goals and those are not comparable to a schools goals. If there is to be more oversight then the gov't has an obligation to start learning about homeschooling and stop assuming that it's pretty much like school but at home.
I think there needs to be a little more accountability on the parents to show they are indeed teaching at grade level and their kids are not behind.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Boy, that would mess me up. My daughter is behind on her reading. Would I get in trouble? Probably because Dept. of Ed. officials likely aren't educated on how reading can progress in homeschooled kids. Should it matter if my homeschooled kid at 6 is behind if at 12 she'll very likely be right with her peers? Homeschooling can open up our idea of learning, extend it to what a child learns in their childhood instead of framing it in one year increments. Would officials be willing to see that?
I am more concerned with the sheer volume of people doing it now. I will be really curious to see studies of the kids that are 5 to 10 now that are home schooled and see what the stats are when they graduate and try to enter college.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
There are many (including unschoolers) who are in college now. I've heard they're often unconventional and self disciplined learners. Might be why some universities (like Harvard) actively recruits them.
Man...you guys made my brain hurt. Lots of thinking!
I dont like to debate this, but one thing comes to mind, that really irked me yrs ago.
6 yrs ago, we bought the house we are in now. The other neighborhood was fine, no problems with anything, except the schools in the area were not very good, well in my mind. I wanted to be out of the neighborhood before my son went to Kindergarten. Like I said we lived there for almost 5 yrs with no problems.
Our real estate lady homeschooled her daughter, Im thinking she was around 8 or 9 at the time. She brought her to work with her, took her with her to show houses etc..
Anyways, we are a one income family and had to look for houses in our price range, but were not in that school distract. Alot of house we could afford were in that school district. I told Annette countless times, I DID NOT want to look at any houses in that school district...She would make underlying comments about if people homeschooled they wouldnt have to worry about what kind of schools were close to their house etc..Now did she ever come out and say those words. NO, but it was always implied..that really irked me...
Anyways, bottom line we did find a house , where the schools are just fine so it all worked out in the end.
The other thing that bothers me is when people know you are on a schedule, like I cant do something at that time because my son/daughter gets home from school at such and such time. Ive heard homeschoolers say, "Well we never have that problem"...like that would almost sway somebody to homeschool.
Like I said, to each his own....I dont ever put down homeschooling, although I would NEVER do it, if it works for you, great.. Just dont put down the rest of us for our choices whether they be public school or privite.
And I agree on the above post. ALthough my kids go to public school, I do alot of other learning with them. When my son is learning about govt in school, we go on the internet and find other things that relate to what he is learning about.
My daughter in Kindergarten, and I Often printout worksheets for her to do at home with me. We "play" school and she just loves it. I stamp her paper when she is done like her teacher does.
Both my kids are very outgoing, and they would be miserable without seeing their school friends on a daily basis.
But this is just how "our" family is, and we are happy this way.
I think with whatever you choose, you need to be happy with your decision.
Okay, I'll bite. My knee-jerk reaction is that in general I am not a fan of homeschooling as I have seen it modeled by the few I know who do it. However, I certainly think it has its place. In particular, as I am an evangelical Christian, I am repulsed by the number of other evan. Chr. who pull their kids out of school for "spiritual reasons." Ugh!! I can't put words in Kaye's mouth, but Dawn I'd be willing to bet that that is the bubble that Kaye was referring to. And yes...when they grocery shop, go to the library, hang out with friends they ARE still staying in their homogenized Christian bubble. The Bible explicitly says that Christians are to be actively involved in the world (in the world, not of the world) and so I hate the fact that people pull kids out of school to avoid exposing them to *gasp* real kids with real problems. I DO think that creates narrow-minded kids who have difficulty functioning as adults and they tend to be highly judgmental. I do see that a lot.
I don't think homeschoolers should have mandatory testing, nor do I think public/private school children should. I think that is a HUGE problem with education right now and one of the things that would make me consider homeschooling. Kids are over-tested, taught to the test, and their natural learning and curiosity can be squashed in the interim. It used to be that if the class were doing a unit on dinosaurs and the kids got really interested in it that the teacher could expand the lesson and extra week and cut something else in her plans short. Not now! Teachers are all expected to be on p. 237 of the math book at the same day and time, regardless of whether the kids understand the concepts.
I tend to agree the most with Kaye's post overall. I do think homeschoolers can socialize, but I think they miss out on some of the good and bad socialization of school. I will absolutely agree that school is an "artifical environment" unlike any other. The topics of conversation are established by teachers, their are many rules, and the method of discourse (largely Q & A) is not how real people in the real world talk. BUT...homeschool kids don't generally get the opportunity of working in small groups with kids of varying opinions, they don't have the jousting for position among their peers, they don't get to run for Student Council, go to Girls/Boys State or Youth Legislature, be in the Pep Club or Science Club, wonder if they'll have a date for the Homecoming dance, etc. And I think because they have been in a different social climate, that homeschooled kids are "different." Not saying that's good, bad, or otherwise, but I can usually pick a homeschooled kid out of a group because they behave and respond apart from the norm. We've noticed the same things with our friends who are missionaries. Missionary kids are a little different due to some of the cultural things. I thiink it's good to be an individual and not a total conformist, but there's something about homeschooled kids (again in my "bubbble" --LOL) that I just can't put my finger on.
As far as letting kids develop at their own rate, I would agree that schools are shoving academics down the throats of kids at a younger and younger age. I do think that Kindergarten should be more about cooperative play, artistic expression, and socialization than reading and writing. However, I do disagree with the notion of totally letting kids develop at their own pace. Some kids will never develop and there are critical windows for kids to learn things. If is child is non-verbal at age 3, odds are he will never have normal language because he missed his window. In my studies, we've talked a lot about Vygotsky and his "Zone of Proximal Development" (ZPD). The ZPD of a child is where something is a little bit too hard for him, but not so difficult that he gets frustrated--research shows that this is where the most learning occurs at the fastest rate. So...you don't work on a skill that the child performs at 50% or less--too hard. 80% and higher is considered mastered, but the 60-70% ballpark the child is struggling, but figuring out and can really learn WITH help and that's where the greatest learning occurs.
This is getting long and I have a house to clean, but final thoughts (for now). I have much less of a problem with homeschooling in elementary school, but great concerns about high school, esp. with parents without a college education. When you start getting into advanced math, science, literature, etc. (unless you are in a co-op or something), the kids will be lacking in those areas.
My neighbours kid may be thrilled to tell us how they've set up a class bank. Meanwhile my daughter goes to the bank, deals with fellow customers and with tellers.
Do you think that people who send their kids off to school just leave their kids home alone while we go out and do our running around? My dd goes with me to the bank, the post office, the grocery store and all kinds of places. She even has her own savings account!! *gasp* But, I bet it is fun to set up a bank at school. It is far different working in the bank than being a customer. The kids in that class are learning a whole different side of banking than dealing with other customers and talking with the teller. Gosh, do you poo poo it front of those kids? I think it sounds like great fun and a fantastic way to learn!! Just because it is something that you chose not to do for what ever reason, please don't put those kids down that are excited about their way of doing things. It is obvious by the way you pick every post apart and respond to it that your really believe in your way. That is great! But as strong as you feel for it, there are many that feel that strong against it. To me, to each their own. If I lived in a school district that I didn't feel met my childs needs, I might be tempted to try it. Most likely not, I would put her in private school. But that is my decision and don't feel that I need to justify it to anyone. There are so many things that you have posted about up above that I saw red flags about! But, I won't go into that with you because you obviously feel your doing what is right by your kids. Who am I to question that or even try to point it out to you? I would never presume to act like my way of doing things is better than yours or that my child will be more ready for the real world than yours will be. You are doing what is right for you as I am. Why do you feel the need to justify everything?
In particular, as I am an evangelical Christian, I am repulsed by the number of other evan. Chr. who pull their kids out of school for "spiritual reasons." Ugh!! I can't put words in Kaye's mouth, but Dawn I'd be willing to bet that that is the bubble that Kaye was referring to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
You're exactly right. This occured to me offline, that I DO know of homeschooling communities that homeschool precisely because they want them sheltered and isolated. It's a good point and one that's debated in the homeschooling community as well.
It's often those very homeschoolers who are held up as examples of what homescholing is about, when for many of us it's anything but. There's as much diversity in the Hsing community as in any community.
Kids are over-tested, taught to the test, and their natural learning and curiosity can be squashed in the interim. It used to be that if the class were doing a unit on dinosaurs and the kids got really interested in it that the teacher could expand the lesson and extra week and cut something else in her plans short. Not now! Teachers are all expected to be on p. 237 of the math book at the same day and time, regardless of whether the kids understand the concepts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I am with you there. I was a on a radical anti-school king of thinking for awhile (I often go to the extreme with new ideas) but I'm swinging back now. I think the idea of public education is an adimrable one. My problem with it I guess it's that it seems to have between inflexible and have a very narrow focus. Debate over reforming it is often limited to class size and funding issues. I think that's changing though, in part because ofthe growing numbers of homeschoolers. Maybe we're a force for positive change in schools?
And I think because they have been in a different social climate, that homeschooled kids are "different."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Good point. And it's true. I tend to think it's a good difference but I have different concerns at heart then other parents (we all do). I hate these studies measuring academic acheivement, setting HSers and schooled kids up against one another. What about some studies of grown up HSers and schooled kids to see where they might have different strengths, priorities, lifestyles. That would be cool.
Missionary kids are a little different due to some of the cultural things. I thiink it's good to be an individual and not a total conformist, but there's something about homeschooled kids (again in my "bubbble" --LOL) that I just can't put my finger on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I find with the ones I meet they have a self-assurance about who they are that many schooled kids I know don't (not true of ALL schooled kids I know though). But I don't know any religious homeschoolers and they do seem like a different breed.
80% and higher is considered mastered, but the 60-70% ballpark the child is struggling, but figuring out and can really learn WITH help and that's where the greatest learning occurs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here's where I fail at communicating what we do. We don't do lessons but Catherine does a lot of studying and a lot of working at learning things. I find it's assumed that if you take the unschooling approach you a) don't help your child learn and b) they will choose not to do hard work. In my experience, neither is true.
When you start getting into advanced math, science, literature, etc. (unless you are in a co-op or something), the kids will be lacking in those areas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not ness. Some kids take an interest in that. But, some don't approach it. That's true. If my children don't, I'm not too worried. I want them to have what they need to make a good life. Beyond that, I want them to remain curious about life around them and feel they're capable of learning what they need, when they need it. If they don't touch advanced math throughout their teen years I won't sweat it. If they find they want to become a scientist at 18 but lack the background in math, they can simply find what they need to get that knowledge.
Do you think that people who send their kids off to school just leave their kids home alone while we go out and do our running around?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
No. Someone said they thought homeschooling could be like a bubble, I countered with my feeling that school can be the same way. I said nothing about when you or most parents do your running around (though some parents I know do it while the kids are in school, as I would)
It is obvious by the way you pick every post apart and respond to it that your really believe in your way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I apologize if it looks like I'm picking it apart. I guess in a sense I am but then, this IS the debating forum. It's what I expect from other posters. My style of quoting and responding may make it looks more sinister then I mean it to be...It's just something I do because I like to see the original point and response together. If it's something that looks annoying I'll change it.
That is great! But as strong as you feel for it, there are many that feel that strong against it. To me, to each their own.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Absolutely. But that's why I posted it here. Not because I wanted to convert believers, but because I enjoy a debate. If you don't, fine. I like it because it helps me examines my own ideas and exposes me to new ones. Most of the posts have had me thinking, turning things around in my head, revising some of what I thought before. I enjoy that and I assumed others do to.
Who am I to question that or even try to point it out to you? I would never presume to act like my way of doing things is better than yours or that my child will be more ready for the real world than yours will be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Look, many of the posts here presume that school is the better way. Believe me, it's an overwhelming presumption in our society. But gosh, some posters were expressing their concerns about HSed kids, should I not have expressed mine about schooled kids? But obviously parents do what they think is best. That's a given.
You are doing what is right for you as I am. Why do you feel the need to justify everything?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is a debate forum! I'm debating! Honestly, most of the time I talk about homeschooling and unschooling to others who do the same. We pretty much agree on most things so it's a bunch of people saying, 'Yes! you're so right!' It's nice to have that support but I realize that a lot of my ideas and views are waaay off the deep end in terms of how most people think. I know I have some views based on steretypes of school families, of schools, of teachers and they don't get challenged much of the time.
I write responses here then think for hours and usually end up thinking Kaye made a good point...Vicki was right about that (and she was about several things )...or, wow, I made a boneheaded comment. I'm eager to defend homeschooling and to let people see what I think but I really like seeing what others think about it and exchange ideas. I sort of thought others might like it too.
If you take it personally just ignore the thread. If it offends you, don't read it. If you find it interesting but infuriating, have a calming cup up tea then pick apart my comments point by point.
I don't know if this point has been made, I don't think so . Children and adults learn better from someone they don't know ouside of a learning situation. I don't know why - maybe they percieve the person as someone they have to perform for, but I've seen it countless times as a tutor. They can't get away with anything.
The dynamic is different, therefore the way the child applies him/herself is different. Also the teacher has less of an emotional investment to get in the way and causing frustration when the child just doesn't get it.
Letting a child seek knowledge is wonderful and the best way to learn, but that learning needs to be guided so the child ends up with a connected, cohesive education and not just little bits and pieces of information.
Ame
Yes part of that bubble is what Pam said about being Christian. And I completely agree with (and quote often) the in the world quote.
But also I think Ame has hit the other part of that bubble. Kids need other adults as teachers, they need to see other ideas, disenting ideas. Some families have this, some don't. Our family happens to be very diverse, so my kids get a lot of this, but some of my friends just can't believe our world. This is what I see in homeschoolers, that self assuredness you talk of, also comes off as a smart@ss and disrespectful.
Simply the attitude I get from a lot of homeschoolers, and even some from you to be honest is that you have it all down perfect. Well let me tell you about my world. It is far from perfect, I worry every day have I made the right choice for my kids, am I reading enough to them are they learning enough, is what I am teaching them going to be what it takes to be successful? This isn't all school education, but social and family. I look at our family and I am very close to my dad, we talk daily, sometimes a few times a day. But my husband does not. I want my kids to be like me, not him. So am I fostering that? Am I doing it right? I really just don't know. What I do know is that at some point it will come to light to me, that I did screw at least one thing up, at least one time I will let them down, at least one time I will be a bad example, at least one time I will make the wrong choice. But I hope when it all comes out in the wash, that overall I did more good than bad, they will grow to develop meaningful relationships, and be truely happy.
I know we all have the same goal and we all have to get their by our own journey, but I will be the first to admit that I am sure I will be taking the scenic route!
And another note...way far off base...I am in Texas, we have NO laws here, really none. You don't even have to have a high school degree to hs. That is just frightening to me, we have places deep in the woods here where no one can read, no one cares, but they sure want the world to take care of them. I think before you should be able to hs a subject you should at least have to prove that you can do it yourself. Like trying to bake a cheese cake when you can't boil water..LOL.
I can agree with that to a point, about kids learning better from someone they don't know. A lot of parents are great models but not good teachers. My father is a great man but it was useless whenever he tried to teach us something. We didn't get the patience a stranger might have becuase we were his kids and he expected more? Maybe. As a general truth I don't know though. You probably see exactly the kids whose parents don't have that talent, but I know there are parents who do, Hsing or schooling.
About guiding, yeah, I agree there to but to a point. I think there's where I fail to make myself clear. I don't think of what I do with my kids as teaching but do see myself as a guide or facilitator. My daughter started reading and I go on about her doing it without my help, without me teaching her. And no, we don't sit down and do workbooks or follow any curricullum but we play with words, I supply lots of writing materials, we have Reader Rabbit games in the house and I showed her a phonics website (starfall.com) that she loves and I read and read and read to her. I'm strewing stuff and opportunities and she's picking them up. This is stuff I think would be recognized as guidence and maybe even a subtle teaching by some?
But I shoot myself in the foot and go on in a way that makes it seem like I don't do anything, just let my daughter go on her merry way. Hmmmm.
I'm not sure many schools (I'll stop labeling all) do a great job of the connected, cohesive education either. A lot of times curricullum is affected by political, patriotic, etc interests instead of laying a thread a child can follow. And even then, knowledge doesn't always lend itself to that cohesiveness. But that's a good concern. I do find my daughter has a talent for bringing things togther to form an order ( is this because she doesn't have it laid out and so had to develop it or because it's just a gift of hers? Who knows). Disney's Hercules, a computer city building game about ancient greeks, greek myths and a recently borrowed 4 hour PBS documentry on Alexander the Great (plus a zillion other sources) have been settling in her to form her knowledge about the Greeks. It's not an ordered colllection but one she's become skilled in bringing order to.
That's a neat thing to think about, thanks Ame
Not ness. Some kids take an interest in that. But, some don't approach it. That's true. If my children don't, I'm not too worried. I want them to have what they need to make a good life. Beyond that, I want them to remain curious about life around them and feel they're capable of learning what they need, when they need it. If they don't touch advanced math throughout their teen years I won't sweat it. If they find they want to become a scientist at 18 but lack the background in math, they can simply find what they need to get that knowledge.
Okay, now here's where I can strongly disagree. (and I enjoy a good debate too, Dawn, so all in good fun). I work with kids with disabilities and esp. enjoy working with kids with learning disabilities. One of the things I tell the kids with dyslexia and similar problems is that the tough thing about school is that they have to be good at everything---writing, spelling, reading, history, science, sports, geometry, algebra, etc. and that stinks. However, I encourage them to tough it out because in the adult world they get to pick what they want to do and they WILL exel at it because they have a passion for it and it will match with their academic strengths. Most dyslexics don't become writers, but they can be darn good engineers or work in sales. HOWEVER, some do become good writers (Fannie Flagg comes to mind). However, unschooled/homeschooled Fannie Flagg knew that reading/writing was hard so she would have probably elected to focus on math instead, let's say. We would have missed out on her great writing then! As an adult she gets a secretary and an editor to compensate for her weaknesses, but because she was exposed to literature, forced to take spelling tests that I'm sure she would rather have not taken, etc. we get "Fried Green Tomatoes" and "Welcome to the World, Baby Girl!" instead.
I hate chemistry and am not a big fan of history. I took A.P. Chemistry in high school and am 3 classes short of a minor in chemistry from my B.S. because I was originally in a pre-med program and I had to have 30 hrs in chemistry to take the MCAT. I hated it, but knew it was a necessary evil to becoming a doctor, so that's why I took it (and AP Calculus) in high school to prepare me for college to prepare me for medical school. Obviously I changed my major (before I had to take physics thank goodness! ), but I at least had the tools in hand to succeed in higher maths and sciences had I been so inclined. I needed one history credit in college so I took "Tsarist Russia" on a whim. It ended up being one of my favorite classes in all of college and I went on to read a biography of Nicholas and Alexandra on my own after the class was over because I wanted to know more. I probably wouldn't have even known who Nicholas and Alexandra were without the class.
Obviously as parents we can't expose our children to everything, but I definitely think they should get a good smattering of every major subject even if they don't express an interest. They may not express an interest simply because they don't know that something exists. My oldest DS is a wonderful artist and spends hours each day drawing. We got him art lessons so he could learn a little about color, perspective, art history, technique, and different media. He enjoyed the lessons and learned a lot, but at years' end he didn't want to take lessons again, because he's learned that he doesn't like paint, pastels, or papier mache. He simply loves to draw with a pencil, particularly anime. However, the tools he learned, esp. with regard to shading and breaking down art into geometry have been very beneficial. And to continue to spur his interests we are attending an animation festival at the end of the month where he will learn how to storyboard his drawings, learn some basic animation principles, and get to screen 4 days worth of anime and other cartoons.
Finally, I wanted to take cello lessons in middle school because I thought the cello was cool and no one else played it. I could play the piano and the saxophone, but the cello was so unique. I started lessons and my teacher told me, "You may not leave here playing the cello, but you'll at least leave with an appreciation for the instrument." After 4 months of lessons and only being able to play a very horrible rendition of "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" I decided the cello wasn't for me, but I do have an incredible appreciation for it. I remember learning that it was the instrument that sounds closest to the human voice and how difficult it was to hold the strings down, pull and push the bow, all while maintaining the correct pressure and positioning. So hard! Now when I hear someone like Yoyo Ma I think I can appreciate his music more than someone who has never tried to play the cello.
Long story longer...all of this to say that when education is left too long in the hands of the children and their interests I think they missout on getting to expand their horizons fully. I agree with Ame's statement 100% Letting a child seek knowledge is wonderful and the best way to learn, but that learning needs to be guided so the child ends up with a connected, cohesive education and not just little bits and pieces of information.
"...we play with words, I supply lots of writing materials, we have Reader Rabbit games in the house and I showed her a phonics website (starfall.com) that she loves and I read and read and read to her. I'm strewing stuff and opportunities and she's picking them up. This is stuff I think would be recognized as guidence and maybe even a subtle teaching by some? "
Dawn, I hate to be the one to tell you - but that's teaching!
The best compliment I got from my second graders was that they loved school because they didn't do anything but have fun! (Every child left that class reading on grade level and above). I did similar things to what you describe, Dawn. I did use the workbooks, but not as drills - they were more like games.
The kind of teaching you describe is child based learning. The teacher is a facilitator. Maria Montessori was very big on child centered learning. Many of the gifted classes operate in this way, with individualized learning centers for children to learn and discover at their own pace.
The Whole Language approach to reading is exactly what you describe - almost like letting kids pick up reading out of thin air.
The district in which I last taught was very big on theme units. There would be a particular theme or concept and all the lessons in all subject areas, including art would be related to that theme.
Pam and Kaye also make great points about exposure and dedication.
I was not homeschooled, per say, but I learned more at home and from the countless cultural places my mother took me to than I ever learned at school. I thik she kept me home two or three days a month to take me to a museum or a concert. I learned a great deal. However, in school I was exposed to things that I wasn't at home, and gained other interests.
Unforutnately, I was very smart - in every area except math (now I recongnize it as LD, but who thought about these things back then?). Because I was so smart, I was allowed to slide. Consequently, if it didn't come easy, I didn't apply myself. I wish I'd had Pam's ambition and stick to it ness. But, I was never forced to knuckle down and do what came hard.
Had I been, I know I'd be a different, hopefully better, person.
Acting simply as a facilitator without identifying a child's weak areas and doing something to strengthen them does a diservice to the child.
Ame
Before my children started formal schooling, they had had plenty of workbooks, library books, crayons, coloring books, computer progrmas, etc. So, I probably homeschoooled before school! I just tried to keep their lives full and get lots of exposure to things to help them later on in school. Now, they are both honor students.
I homeschool one of my kids, and only part time. Although I've never disagreed with homeschooling, I NEVER thought I could do it. I am a Child Development Counsellor/Early Childhood Resource Teacher professionally, but I never thought I would have the patience to teach my own children.
When Nicole was in grade 4, her learning differences were causing her too many problems at school. Until that point, she had wonderful teachers who saw her for the unique little girl she was, and they helped to build on her strengths. The teacher that year, when asked about Nicole's learning during a meeting in March, told everyone present that she didn't really know her, because she spent some of her time in the learning centre. MARCH!! After 7 months of being with that teacher!! During the next meeting, the principal and special ed teacher told me that I should put her on Ritalin. This is a little girl with problems with distraction, but who was very quiet and not at all disruptive. It was at that point that I told them she would be homeschooled part time.
Before keeping her home, she was often sad and easily frustrated. She would fly into rages from frustration. Those behaviours ended the day I pulled her out for her mornings. She is a wonderful young lady, who has grown so much because of her time away from her school. Her new special ed teacher has openly admitted that the progress she has made has been because of what we have done.
My other 4 are all still in school full time. I can see that Kayla, my youngest, will probably be homeschooled at some point. She also has learning differences, and is falling farther and farther behind her peers. I can't see the logic in trying to drill so many things into her head, when she really needs to focus on the basics - the 3 R's. She recently got a D- on her report card, in science. The science teacher wrote something about her needing to spend more time studying her notes for tests. I laughed out loud!! Any notes that she has have been copied without knowing what was written, and she can't read them!! Study more?? Let's get her reading first, or teach and test her orally!!
When Nicole was in K, we went to the meeting the held at the beginning of the year. They told us all about a NEW (maybe to them) style of teaching - multiple intelligences. All children would benefit, because it teaches to every child, no matter what their style of learning. It's a wonderful idea, and if they really did it, it would be great. They don't. If they did, Kayla would be learning by listening to everything on tape or video, Meghan would be reading all day, and Nicole would be doing everything hands on.
We can accommodate that at home, and we do.
I believe that every parent has to do what's right for each individual child. It might not be what you originally thought you'd be doing, but until you're in that place, you won't know.
Long story longer...all of this to say that when education is left too long in the hands of the children and their interests I think they missout on getting to expand their horizons fully. I agree with Ame's statement 100%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I disagree! Of course! LOL
How do you find and pursue interests now that school is gone? Are you still a curious person that enjoys learning? I know I am. I know my interests are continually expanding or shifting. I'm at home with two kids but my education is ongoing. I heard a neat interview on the radio one day so I'm reading the book in question, a new translation of Gilgamesh. We were looking at buying a computer so I've dived into that and it's so cool. A mini series on Henry the 8th finally gave me a good idea who his wives were and led me to fiction and biographies about Elizabeth, Mary, Queen of Scots, James the First. And there's a lot more.
And my daughter is like this as well. She picks out points of interest from everything she encounters. A crappy cartoon on mummy superheroes has her questioning the science in question. A plant with fuzzy leaves has us reading to try and find out why (never did but we observed it grew it a dry area and that it's fuzzy leaves collected more dew so it may have been a moisture collection strategy). I agree school can exposse you to a wide range of things but if kids are raised watching curious adults seek out information, it can have the same result.
And this assumes school really does that. And no doubt it can when it's good. But often it creates a lot of fear and hatred too. I know too many people (and I used to be one of them) who are convinced math is hard and they can't do it. Who think history is dry and refuse to approach it. Who can't see the relevence of science to their daily lives. School can do that too.
And this all assumes they need the exposure within a certain time period. My focus is on having my kids be curious life long learners so that it never stops. In my experience a lot of people leave school thinking they've got what they need and are releived to put the learning behind them. It wasn't fun and they don't want to revisit learning (I had a co-worker pooh-pooh my choice of books once. I was reading a geological history of North America. She said reading was for relaxing and zoning out, not to be wasting on putting work into learning. I think my mouth fell open). School doesn't always leave people like that and it doesn't have to, but it often does.
Dawn, I hate to be the one to tell you - but that's teaching!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Noooooooo!
Seriously, I DO avoid using 'teach' because it implies an intent I don't want. If I decide to teach her to read, even at her request, I've claimed a goal that I don't feel rightly belongs to me. It's up to ME to teach her that. So I'm a facilitator, a guide. I'm there to help in the journey but when she reaches her goal it's all her doing.
Teaching may not have the same implications for others but I try not to use it because of what it means to me.
The Whole Language approach to reading is exactly what you describe - almost like letting kids pick up reading out of thin air.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes. It seems like magic but what I think we don't really see all the questions a child asks, how they pay attention to what's read. We don't see all the work they put into it because it doesn't fit our definition of work...It took me the longest time to recognize. And I would definately say it's an approach that puts teaching to the side and lets learning take the fore.
But, I was never forced to knuckle down and do what came hard.
Had I been, I know I'd be a different, hopefully better, person.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Who knows? Perhaps you would have become frustrated and turned off? Maybe not forcing you to knuckle down has left a door open so that you could approach that now if you choose? Learning doesn't have to stop. Anything missed in childhood can be approached as an adult. Heck, I just picked up a book last week to take another go at math. It's called 'All The Math You'll Ever Need'.
Which is funny. It's about 230 pages, goes from multiplication to a last chapter on business math and doesn't take 13 years to complete.
*ducking*
Marcia,
You brought up something I thought was neat. Made a point about 'They told us all about a NEW (maybe to them) style of teaching - multiple intelligences. All children would benefit, because it teaches to every child, no matter what their style of learning.'
This is where some teachers (Some. I've been surprised to find that it seems to be teachers who are overwhelmingly supportive when they find out what our family does) bring up their training. That they have had courses on learning differences and disabilities and are best able to deal with teaching kids because of this. I'm not an expert in that but I am the authority on my kids. As you pointed out, we know how they learn best and that's simply because we spent so much time watching them.
I liked your point about patience too. I hear that a lot but it's a skill you learn I find. I didn't have much at the beginning either. But I suspect most people who say that don't really want to homeschool anyway, it's just one of those lines they use when they talk to someone who homeschools. I don't mean that in any bad way...I have those throwaway lines to.
Don't have to duck, Dawn - we're really on the same side.
My goal in teaching has always been to create life -long learners. I think you'd be surprised at the changes that have been made in education. We use MI theory to teach. We encourage curiosity. What we don't do is allow a child to fail because he or she lacks a certain skill or just doesn't like something. We find a way to identify why the child is having a problem and then address it using many different styles. We identify the child's primary learning style and use it.
Maybe all teachers don't operate this way, but in my district this was the way we worked.
And yes, my dear, you are TEACHING (Now I'm ducking).
I will check out your book - but even as an adult, I've tried to learn computation I get the concepts, but I reverse numbers, get nervous and then have all sorts of trouble. I can memorize whole arias in other languages and plays - but can't memorize the times table! My basic math facts get all confused. This is a LD. In school now, this would have been flagged as an LD and I would have gotten the help I needed. A homeschooler, or unschooler might not necesarily have this problem identified or corrected.
It dosen't take 13 year to complete (BTW) because it assumes some kind of foundation or groundwork has been laid already.
MY primary problem with education now is that we've swung too far away from the basics. It's great to let kids use invented spelling and grammar, but they need to learn the right way as well.
Ame
Ame, I teach my kids multiplication at home. We use a book that teaches them through pictures and stories, and they've done beautifully with it. I don't think the method matters, as long as it's one that works for the child.
I thinks its great if you can homeschool for me its just not something I would do or feel I could do.
I also feel that my children would learn more from a teacher then I could ever teach them. And I like to have my kids with other children and to get use to the up and downs of interacting with others kids.
JMO
As I said I really think if you feel homeschooling is for you go for it. For me I never have considered it.
Unschoolmom, thank you for starting this thread. I am learning so much, and must admit I can now see both sides. And both sides have made such great points.
I had the experience of being an instructional aide in a Learning Resource Center at one of our public schools. Before I had this position I seriously thought I might want to become a Special Ed. Teacher. Yet, three years later I left that class very sure of some things. At this time I did not have a daughter. Yet, I knew if I had a child with any kind of learning challenge, and I had her in a school that was discussing whether she needed to be put on some kind of medication, well I knew then I'd pull her out of school in a heart beat. Because I learned, at least at this particular school, that the very people who make such decisions may not know my child well enough to advise me on such matters. As an aide in this classroom, I actually spent more time with some of the children than the instructor herself. She was very busy filling out paperwork and attending the many meetings that discuss these very children. And so many of them were put on medication. I came away dissolutioned with the school system, and I no longer had a desire to teach.
I guess it really depends on so many factors. Our children, their individual needs. The quality of the public schools in our area.
One thing is apparent to me reading this thread. We all care a great deal.
I attended both public and private schools growing up. I had some truly incredible teachers in both situations. People who inspired me. Teachers I still think about on occasion and with great appreciation. I also had a teacher who was on tenure, and an alcoholic. I had her for two years straight. Although I was young, I sensed something was very wrong. Yet, my parents chose not to listen and instead put their trust in the school.
I apologize for not making very definite points here! I am thinking aloud and like the rest of you, I care so much about my child's future. I guess what I'm saying, regardless of our views, we are united in our concern and love of our children.
My child is not school aged as of yet, but this thread had given me some valuable insight. As a parent, I am grateful we have choices, and the opportunity to discuss such topics.
Nicki
Marcia - I'm not sure what you meant by your post about teaching multiplication . I wasn't implying that the schools need to do drill and skill work - far from it. I mean that they need to make sure kids are getting the basics.
The times table comment was to illustrate my own experience.
Ame
Ame - the author's name is Steve Slavin. It's a book I have to keep revisiting. I find the business math very hard because I have a difficult time keeping the numbers strung together in the right order. But I keep plugging away, who knows?
And yeah, okay, I'm teaching (shhhh! don't let the other unschoolers hear or I'll lose my radical status!) and you can see that, but can most people? You mentioned foundations (in regard to learning math from that book) but do you think most people would walk into my house and see my kids stringing beads or sorting marbles or doing jigsaw puzzles and understand that they were practicing skills fundamentally important to math?
I hesitate to use the term maybe because people seem to then imagine my daughter at the kitchen table with her workbooks and me hovering over her (A teacher I know assumed I had a desk that I taught from?!). But then again, if I talked about what I do as teaching it might help people see beyond their assumptions.
As for LD's, I know so many homeschoolers who are homeschooling precisely because they found their school couldn't or wouldn't address the LD. But I wonder about that. If you've got a HSing parent who's very flexible in her approach, would the LD matter as much? Might LD's and things like ADHD be exacerbated by being in an inflexible school?
But then, what I think this might be boiling down to is the parent. Any choice will only be as good as what the parent is willing to make it. Schooling and HSing can both have substantial drawbacks, but if a parent realizes that and works to correct them? Unschooling can and has been used by people to excuse their neglect of their children. HSing can become an intentional isolation bubble. School can be something to dump a parent's responsibility for aiding in the education of their children on. The key isn't simply to pick the right one, the key is to be aware of possible shortcomings and head them off?
I was thinking of a way to defend unschooling against charges that it was simply ignoring your responsibility to teach your child (not here and not lately) by mentioning how much more involved you have to be as an unschooling parent because you're not using conventional curricullum and such. You have to be willing to talk a lot, pick up resources, involve your kids in your interests, follow theirs...But now of course, I realize that's the key for raising kinds whatever methods of education you (or the kids) choose. Duh.
That said, I wish general discussion on education could be more diverse. I wish it weren't strange and weird to question the need for grades and tests, to suggest delayed schooling, to think that maybe we could leave reading for a bit later (Denmark does it, Waldorf does it). I find debates on public education very narrow and frustrating. Wish they were more like this.
I go and correct my mistakes and then post the wrong post...Hopeless!
I also feel that my children would learn more from a teacher then I could ever teach them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Kathy, here's where I bet Ame would agree with me on teaching. You don't need to know a lot to teach. You don't need to know a thing about what your child wants to explore sometimes. You just need to be willing to explore their interests alongside them, help find the library books and videos, be willing to read to them, try an experiment with them. Where your knowledge fails, their (and eventually your) curiousity will surge. Yeats said 'education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a flame.' Teaching at it's best is lighting flames and you don't need to know a darn thing about a subject to do that.
One thing that HSing parents marvel at after a little experience is that how much they learn and how much their idea of learning has changed since beginning.
I'm not trying to convert you here. Just want to assure you that I bet you could offer and do offer more to your kids in terms of learning then a teacher could. It's just a given, you being the mom and all.
As a parent, I am grateful we have choices, and the opportunity to discuss such topics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Me too. I am really grateful for the responses people gave to this thread. Ad I said before I sometimes just talk to the radicals in the HSing community and so my head sort of needs a good beating out in the fresh air to let me really examine my ideas.
I generally do not add to these debate boards. I felt as a home-schooler, who does NOT unschool, I should show my point of view on this topic.
I home-school and it was not something I ever expected to be doing. It was after a long struggle (4 years) with the school system that I made the jump. My daughter is a very determined student. She managed to be on the honor roll but not without working several hours a night with me. She learns differently and the school system was simply not willing to help. They even went as far as falsifying her report card (stating she received extra reading assistance when she in fact did not). Year after year I tried to work with the school to help my child. My daughter became more and more depressed. The FCAT stressed her out. The school threatened to fail her over the FCAT test even though she was an A student the entire year.
My son had issues with a bully and he was so far advanced in his class that he was given free time while the teacher went over reading/comprehension with her classroom. The school did not have advanced classes so my son was left bored and unchallenged.
Yes, I could have probably fought the system and found help for my daughter and gotten my son advanced. The thing is, I got tired of fighting.
I spoke with many teachers and they all encouraged me to do it. I home-school simply because I want my children to have the best education I can provide them. If public school were providing them with that, I would have never made this decision. If we could afford a private school it might have been a solution.
I am not home-schooling for religious reasons and there are many groups that scare the daylights out of me. I certainly do not want to convert anyone but if you have questions I am willing to help! I do not feel the need to convince anyone else to home-school. I think if your public school works--Great! Mine didn't so I did what was best for my children.
I follow A Beka. It is what a lot of private schools use. I want my children to be on equal footing with public school because they will go to college. My children are not behind. They are actually ahead of what they would be in public school.
My children play on team sports, belong to various groups with children their age. I find the whole socializing issue quite funny. It simply is not an issue. Maybe some home-schoolers are hermits but we are not. We are out and about every day and the kids have a large group of friends and acquaintances (various new kids they meet on homeschool field trips).
The only thing I ever hear about my children is how well mannered they are. I do not think they are any different than children attending public school.
As far as upper education. I am unsure how I will handle high school. We may place them in a private school or just go through the A Beka academy. What I do know is I will make sure they learn everything they need to learn and if I doubt my ability I will get help.
I do know that home-schooling is increasing in numbers every year. The mom's I have met in my support group all tell a version of the same story. They pulled their children because either
1) There child has a learning disibility and is not getting help
or
2) The FCAT and continious testing is either stressing out their child or causing their child to be left behind.
The whole "no child left behind" plan is seriously flawed and until the schools realize and change the constant testing there will be more and more people making the decision to homeschool.
Yvonne
Dawn I totally agree what you are saying. Homeschooling was just never really even talked about when I was growing up or I never even thought about it when I was raising my DK's. In our area I think there is one family that do homeschool there 2 children and he is a pastor and his wife at a local church.
I have for the past 14 years since my DS started in our public school, been very satisfied with the teachings and just the school in general. So maybe that was one of the reason I never thought about homeschooling.
I think its a great idea to have this discussion board, I have learned alot of things just reading some of the topics.
Thanks for the insight.
Yjja123, it sounds to me like you are doing a perfect job and your kids will be better off because of it. I can't say that I have met many like you however. I really do have a great fear for some of the kids I have come in contact with. But I just want to tell you that I think you are the perfect example of what home schooling should be!!
Thank you Vicki!
Yes, Dawn - that's the best way to teach the foundations for mathematics. I am NOT a drill and skill workbook advocate - if I came off that way I came off wrong.
More later ...
Ame
Ame, I meant nothing. I was just sharing a neat way that we do something, that they aren't doing in the school.
This issue stresses me out, because I see how flawed our schools are, but I'm not sure if homeschooling would be better for my kids. I realize I have a few years to decide this, but this is probably one of the hardest choices I've faced, and one I *never* thought I'd even consider. I went to a great public school, but until I'd lived in other areas I didn't realize not everyone has great schools. I'm not impressed with the schools here, and safety is obviously an issue as well. Anyway, I'm enjoying this thread, it's nice to have insight into different options.
I just wasn't sure if there was a question you had or something . What you're doing is just what kids need, as you already know.
Ame
Crystal, don't stress about it. Before you decide against your public school, really check out the SPECIFIC one that your kids would go to. Look at their class size, test scores, activities, enhancements, PTA involvement, ect. Not the district as a whole, but your one specific school. My district has some great schools and some not so great, if I only went by newspaper articles or even word of mouth, I would have a very different opinion of my kids' schools.
Ame - I was pretty sure you and I would agree on what the foundations of math are. I think we're closer in how we think about learning then I am to many other HSer's or you might be to other teachers?
Crystal - Jann's suggestion was great. Visit your local school, talk to teachers and the principal, other parents (parental involvement is often a key factor for successful schools). And if Hsing provokes some curiousity, look into it. I posted a bunch of good links in this thread...
http://www.momsview.com/discus/messages/23/34689.html
There is absolutely no reason to stress about it. There are many good options out there and you have plenty of time to poke around.
Anyway, I'm enjoying this thread, it's nice to have insight into different options.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There's also a delayed schooling movement. Simply keeping kids home for an extra year or two (many states and provinces don't require kids to be in school until 6 or 7).
There are private schools with vastly different philosophies, Montesori (which IMO rocks), Waldorf
and even Sudbury schools which are basically unschooling in school.
I really think determining your child's path in education should be more than going to public school but only aproaching other choices if it's not up to snuff. I think so many choices are equal to public school and so many are not simply education choices but lifestyle choices. I know that's definately the case with unschooling. I can't for the life of me imagine our family dealing with school. It just seems sooo weird!
It's hard to say what school our kids will go to, since we'll almost definitely move within the town soon, and there are quite a few schools in this district. I worry about the TAKS testing and such, because I always did extremely well on standardized tests, but lots of children do not, even though they know the material. We've gone so far in teaching to the test that I feel the scores are the only thing that "matters" to the schools, the kids get lost in the process. Montessori and other alternatives are really not an option, just because of cost. I think the reason it stresses me is I'm watching our education system circle the drain, and I don't want school to sneak up on us (kids will be 3 in June) only to find the options stink! BTW, does anyone know of appropriate material for pre-schoolers? I'd like to help my kids get a head start before Kindy, but a pre-school teacher I am not. LOL! Any fun ideas to help pre-schoolers learn?
Crystal, that's a good question, and I too have thought I need to find some material for my two year old.
Yet, not sure if anyone else feels this way, but I find myself resisting! I think to myself, she's only two, and while I know little ones can absorb so much and are capable of learning vast amounts, it still bothers me. I feel like I'm pushing her. I just want her to "be". Know what it's like to just be free to explore her environment. I figure she has years ahead of her to commit to organized study. And it bothers me that these little ones must know certain things to get into Kindergarten. My MIL keeps reminding me of these "things". She's worried Lara will be behind. Okay, I'll admit this might have to do with my resistance...(smile) but not totally.
Yesterday Lara and I spent over an hour taking a walk along our country road collecting and examining wild flowers. She was captivated! We literally are taking time to smell the flowers. My thinking is this is what little ones should be doing.
I apologize for taking away from your question, Crystal! It just got me thinking (again). Lara watches a certain amount of the programming on Noggin. She's learned so much from Blue Clue's and Dora. Maisy and Miffy, too! So I guess she is getting some of this and enjoying it too. She just loves those shows. In fact she is watching and finding clues as I type! Lol...
Crystal, saturate their environment with learning. My son has letters on the fridge, open access to crayons, pencils, paper, books, blocks etc. talk to your children, get them to talk to you. I play guessing games with my son to foster his logical reasoning skills. We sort blocks, we tell stories and solve problems. When we read, I ask him a lot of questions about the story, the characters, the pictures, etc.
Recently my son had some testing done for speech and they had to give him a psychological which was more academic than anything else. The school psychologist wanted to know what I was doing with him because he was able to complete tasks she's never seen a three year old do.
I told her that I was doing nothing formal, just what I mentioned above.
We're beginning reading, now, because he loves letters and words.
I'm going to sound like Dawn - let your children's natural enthusiasm lead you and then use it to (teach) them.
I find so many teachable moments in my day. You just have to be aware of them.
On the way to the grocery store we play a game. I give him clues about what we need to buy and let him guess the item. We count everything. Ilet him make deductions all the time. When he asks me a question, I ask him leading questions so he comes to the answer for himself and this way model reasoning.
Also, he watches the same shows Nicki mentioned. I do think he learns a great deal from them.
LOL Dawn I told you we were on the same side! I just think kids can learn a great deal from eachother in a classroom and that learning needs to be a bit more directed. Otherwise our educational philosophy is the same.
Here are some resources I filled the house with Crystal:
Math - jigsaw puzzles, building blocks, large stringable beads, dot-to-dots, things to sort with (buttons and egg cartons for ex.)
Reading and writing - lots of different kinds of paper, markers, crayons, pens, pencils, colouring books, books, books, books.
history - Eyewitness videos from the library, Lots and lots of TV shows, books, related toys.
Science - videos and book and tv shows again. Chances to bake, blow bubbles, take walks, etc.
And none of this stuff came with the obligation to do anything correctly. The buttons might not be sorted but rather be turned into a tiddlywinks kind of game for instance. I'd pick up lots of neat stuff at garage sales and thrift stores and bring it home for them to explore. This is an excellent strategy when you just know that used Mousetrap game is going to be torn apart for half a dozen different uses. Cheap things are easy to let go of.
We do strangely have a LOT of workbooks (garage sales or presents from relatives) and many flashcards. To my daughter they're in the same class as colouring books, done when she wants to and only recently has she decided she'd like to follow the instructions correctly. The flash cards however never get used 'properly', always end up in a line across the floor on their way to a fair or something.
Just play with your kids and more importantly, watch so you can see how what they're doing right now is valuable. Follow their interests (even if its video games, the places that video and computer games have led my daughter to are amazing). Always answer their questions or help find answers and always be there with a hug.
If you simply let them lead for now, let them have confidence in their ability to learn, it won't matter how they measure up to the other kids because it will be in their power to learn what they need. Flashcards and drills and memorizing the alphabet are rather like giving them fish. Following Nicki's philosophy is more like teachng them to fish.
Yet, not sure if anyone else feels this way, but I find myself resisting! I think to myself, she's only two, and while I know little ones can absorb so much and are capable of learning vast amounts, it still bothers me. I feel like I'm pushing her. I just want her to "be".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's exactly how I feel!!!
And you know what, your point about how little ones can absorb so much? I think that's because we're inclined not to push at that age.
There's a lot of talk about the 'golden time' of learning being from 0 to 5 or 6. The radical part of me can't help wondering if that's because they go to school at 5 or 6? I heard a conversation between two teachers I know who talked about how they loved kindergarten students because they were so bright and eager but how by grade 1 or 2 the kids just didn't seem to want to learn much anymore. Maybe because they were in school? Yes, I kept my mouth shut. I don't see that in homeschooled kids, I don't see it in every schooled kid...I wish they'd push deeper for answers before assuming that's a 'natural' thing in kids.
Back to moderate mode.
Just loved your post Nicki.
Ame - Yes. I think probably you've got a good point on more directed learning. I'm not sure that at 6 or 7 my daughter will need that anytime soon though.
But then I hear the stories of other unschooling parents of how their 12, 13, 14, 15 or whatever year old begin to take an interest in courses and college. Partly curiousity but maybe partly a drive for something more structured? I know I've been craving that myself lately (in fact I'm taking a college course this fall on the Bible).
It certainly has it's place, it's just that I'm far from convinced it has to have a place in childhood. I think of my kids having a good 60 or 70 years to get involved with formal learning. I don't think it's ness. for me to impose it on their first 10 or 15 years. These years can be for exploring in freedom, letting curiousity lead them, etc. Not that schooling always dampens those things. Heck, I went to school and while there were bad experiences I did make it out the other side with my curiousity intact.
Crystal and Nicki, having things around that encourage your child to learn is NOT forcing it on your child. Anymore than reading to your child forces your child to learn to read. What you are doing by having "learning encouragement" material around is making it possible for your child to act on the child's natural curiosity about the world.
For example, saying "yes, you may have two cookies" does indeed teach your child the concept of two, but it is not "forcing" learning. As you will see when your child, one of those times, says "here, Mommy, this is TWO cookies", with a grin and great glee.
From my experience, one of the best things a parent can do (and yes, it is teaching) is to answer questions. And if your child asks a question you don't know the answer to (why is the sky blue), you say, I don't know but let's look it up and see what the book (or the internet) says. When I lived in a very low income, low social background community, one of the big differences I noticed between me and my children and other parents and their children is that I answered or tried to find an answer to questions - so my kids kept asking questions. Most of the other kids got "I don't know" or "don't bother me" or "that's a stupid question", so they stopped asking.
I think one of the major things that stops a child's delight in learning new things is simply being discouraged from learning at their own pace and in their own way, which is a major problem with schools, especially large class size schools. When children are forced to sit quietly and not ask questions, and forced to learn at the same rate as everyone else instead of their own rate, it has to diminish learning.
A lot of conventional wisdom says we can't solve the problems of public schools by simply "throwing money" at them. But, if money were directed specifically to having class sizes of, say 10 per teacher or trained aide and no more than 20 in a class for grades 1-4, changing the ratios to 1/15 with a maximum of 25 in 5-8, I'll bet we'd see some huge improvements in the next five years.
Ditto, Ginny. Sadly the main problem with public education is "infrastructure", both literally and figuratively. A teacher who puts in more work and enthusiasm and creativity gets the same monetary reward as the teacher who cracks the workbooks all day. On the administrators' level, the goal is scores scores scores and don't be too innovative.
Literally, the buildings are falling apart and are just too small to accommodate smaller classes.
And let's not even get started on politics and patronage ...
So, smaller classes is no simple task. I agree that's the answer, but until there is a huge capital improvement and a bunch of new construction, it might as well be an impossible dream (love tilting at windmills).
Ame
Crystal said, BTW, does anyone know of appropriate material for pre-schoolers? I'd like to help my kids get a head start before Kindy, but a pre-school teacher I am not. LOL! Any fun ideas to help pre-schoolers learn?
Okay, here's where I am a 100% bonafide unschooler! I think there is no reason for preschool. My kids went because they enjoyed the time with the other kids and I was working part-time (so they went 2-3 half days a week), but there is no valid educational purpose for it. If they do go to preschool it should be a DAP (developmentally appropriate preschool) where all the learning is play-based and child-led.
As far as what you should be doing with toddlers and preschoolers at home...playing, reading, cooking, going for walks, running errands, reading, coloring, getting messy with playdoh, dancing, playing tag, reading some more, etc. I think flashcards and workbooks have no place at all in the world of a toddler and preschooler.
Most of the speech therapy I do is with this age. I have a mom who got really mad at me a few weeks ago because I was using play for speech therapy instead of drilling speech sounds with flashcards while seated at the table. Her DD is 4 y/o by the way. The mom told me her DD was very smart and fully capable of sitting and the table and doing "hard work" and that I didn't need to play games and get out toys. It just made her DD too silly and was a waste of time. You know what...4 y/os are supposed to be a little silly. Furthermore, do typically developing children learn to talk with flashcards? No! They learn through play and experience. One of the girls' error sounds was "L" and her mom commented how she could say hard unfamiliar words (that she had been taught) well like "lantern," but she still said wuv/love. I told her it was because repeating words off of flashcards is not a speech act (no communication intent behind it) so it would not be generalized to her overall speech even if she could say it during drill. Many, many studies point to the same thing---that children learn best and get carryover into everyday life when they learn through play.
I think lots of outings to the zoo, park, train station, restaurant, and my personal favorite--the grocery store--are phenomenal learning environments. Go with what your kids like. If they are into music, dance to different types (free CDs at the library), make a drum, some maracas, and a guitar from a cereal box. Catch some bugs and talk about how they have 6 legs and how most insects are helpful. Watch a psider build a web and read "Be Nice to Spiders."
I have this poem hanging in my therapy room and it pretty well sums up my feelings on the matter (although I do think DAILY reading to kids is VERY important):
I tried to teach my child with books.
He gave me only puzzled looks.
I tried to teach my child with words--
They often passed him by unheard.
Despairingly I turned aside,
"How shall I teach this child?" I cried.
Into my hand he put the KEY,
"COME," he said, "AND PLAY WITH ME."
My kids LOVE to color right now, they have constant access to markers and coloring books, as well as construction paper. One of the most surprising things they picked up on their own was sorting the letter magnets on the fridge. One day we just noticed Shane was sorting by color, another day by letter, and even turning "M"s upside down to match the "W"s. They are getting very adamant about story time, as a matter of fact they are obsessed with "Brown Bear, Brown Bear, What Do You See?". I've watched them blossom so much in the past few months, and they are picking up things so quickly (unfortunatly they pick up commercials too easily... "Wake up with the King" is getting annoying!) so I want to utilize that, give them opportunities to learn. I learned to read and write very early, and I think that fostered a love of reading in me, so I'd like to encourage them as well. I'm kind of rambling here, but my point is they love to learn right now, and I hope that never changes. I've seen quite a few kids get into elementary school and begin to hate learning for one reason or another. Oh, and Ginny mentioned class size, and finances. I went to a wealthy school district, but by the time I was in HS we were so overcrowded we didn't even have enough desks or textbooks for every student. I attended a few "core" classes where kids were sitting on heaters, sharing text books, and not able to take books home. If "wealthy" schools are facing such struggles, I can't imagine what trouble the poorer areas are in.
Amen Pam!!!
My kids went to a mother's day out program when they were 3 and up, but if they had done flash cards or any kind of 'manadatory' learning, I would have flipped!
READ to your kids! Talk to your kids, like Ginny said. Get out the shaving cream or whipped cream and play with your kids. Yes, by K they do need to know their name, address, birthday and phone number, but you can make a game of that. Tons of time to learn 'officially'.
Beanie babies were cool things at my house! They represented many different things and there times that they used them all! (We have tons, most of which we didn't buy. All those presents just added up!) My kids used them all the time for imaginative play!
"Unschooling" a first child, which is already showing signs of delay for their first grade, would raise huge RED flags for me. It seems to me it is not working for the child.
Crystal, I am also an advocate of play for learning, but I too wanted more of a guide. There is a great book called "where is thumbkin", I got it at barnes and noble. It is a toddler, preschool curriculum. It is a wonderful resource. It is set up in a thematic unit, all based on songs (i needed to learn songs, I missed that in growing up..lol) So a typcial week would be, we would sing baa baa black sheep every day, then do a sheep activity, one day it was going to the petting zoo, or glueing cotton balls on a piece of paper, talking about textures soft and hard. Not really school work, but really great concepts. I loved it. Each song has a math, science and language activity, and it is all geared towards 2's and 3's and 4's. I just didn't always think about using glue, or having them cut and it felt structured and I needed that.
Thanks Kaye!!
Amecmom said: Children and adults learn better from someone they don't know ouside of a learning situation. I don't know why - maybe they percieve the person as someone they have to perform for, but I've seen it countless times as a tutor. They can't get away with anything.
The dynamic is different, therefore the way the child applies him/herself is different. Also the teacher has less of an emotional investment to get in the way and causing frustration when the child just doesn't get it.
_____________________________________
Here's a point on which I disagree. That first sentance has an implied "All" in front of it. I think that a strong parent who expects the best of his/her child can be just as effective in inspiring learning and optimal performance. I personally performed just as well or better when my mother was my teacher because she was a person who wouldn't let me get away with anything. Because she was my mother, she knew what I was capable of and wouldn't let me put out less than 100% effort. It wasn't that she forced me in any way, it was just that her opinion and approval mattered more to me than anyone elses. When I performed well with other teachers, it was as much about pleasing my mom as pleasing those teachers. I was not homeschooled, but my mom taught about 50% of my 7th-12th grade classes at my tiny private school (20 students).
I think a large problem with structured schooling (whether private or public) is that teachers DON'T have an emotional investment in the individual child and thus reach a point where they decide they've done all they can to reach a child. A devoted parent, however, never gives up. A homeschooling mother may get frustrated along the way, but if she is wise, she will channel that frustration into finding a solution to teaching a topic in a way that best fits the child.
Oh yeah, I wanted to add that I too have tutored children who performed better for me than they ever did for their parents. In all the cases I can think of, the parents were very weak and inconsistent when it came to disciplining, motivating, etc. their children. They didn't follow through with logical consequences for laziness, disobedience, misbehavior.
Two of the boys I tutored, babysat, and taught at church loved me to death, even though it seemed like I was constantly correcting them on something. They craved that adult/child interaction that they were lacking at home where mom was more concerned about not inconveniencing herself or having to deal with a "scene" than parenting her child.
All that to say, I think weak parents who give in to their kids constantly make bad homeschoolers. These kids need someone outside the family to provide structure, discipline, motivation. My mom would have made a great homeschooling mom, and I think I will be a great one. I don't even have kids yet, but my husband and I have already made the decision to homechool.
"Unschooling" a first child, which is already showing signs of delay for their first grade, would raise huge RED flags for me. It seems to me it is not working for the child.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Did you mean mine? In terms of being behind in reading? If so, a few points.
- 'Delay' is deceptive. She's only delayed in terms of our provincial standards. If she were enrolled in a Waldorf school reading would not even be approached until she was around 8. In terms of many homeschooled kids who generally read later she's just fine where she is.
- In terms of a general literacy (storytelling, famialiarity with a wide variety of books, etc.) she's probably ahead. Actual reading, to me can wait. My daughter's love of books and stories, her skill at crafting her own stories will sooner or later have her reading.
- In most other respects she's at or beyond our prov, standards. Certainly in math, in history, science, etc.
If this wasn't addressed to me, well, too late. I responded.
All that to say, I think weak parents who give in to their kids constantly make bad homeschoolers. These kids need someone outside the family to provide structure, discipline, motivation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If you view it as giving in. My kids have a lot of say in how the family is run, what we buy, what we do. I say 'yes' a lot. I might be what would look like a weak parent to you. Or not.
But we aren't set up so that saying 'yes' is giving in. I'm not a parent who's set up rules like 'no treats when I go grocery shopping' and then breaks them when the whining begins (hasn't begun yet). They can add what they choose to the list, come with me, if they want something else they'll ask, I'll think. If it's within our budget, okay, go grab the chocolate bar or cheesestrings or kiwis.
Structure - We don't have schedules but we do have routines. We're not chaotic with time (I know some families can be). Structure here seems to impose itself.
Discipline - It's of the Positive variety here. I used to spank but it was generally worse than useless. I've found that my daughter (I keep leaving my son out of this but he's a young 3) is getting a good sense of self-discipline, something I don't think can be imposed or taught.
Motivation - This is my biggest delight, esp. in terms of learning. She learns because she enjoys it, finds it interesting, likes the work. Not because she'll get a sticker or a good mark or beat the rest of the class. Another thing, that like discipline, comes from within.
Anyhow, the comment probably didn't have anything to do with me. I am an unschooler but I'm not an unparent...uh...er.
"Unschooling" a first child, which is already showing signs of delay for their first grade, would raise huge RED flags for me. It seems to me it is not working for the child.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, I was thinking about this a bit more. If 'delay' in one area is an indication that something is not working, what about all the kids in school who are behind classmates?
But nevermind. It works for her. Catherine is curious about everything, unafraid to approach an opportunity, confident about developing her own ways to approach learning. She is motivated and self directed.
Her time is hers, her choices (with guidence) are hers.
She is fearless about asking questions and direct and respectful when talking with people (the grocery lady laughed at Catherine the last time we went becuase she said something that, "made her sound just like a little adult!" Catherine and I just looked at each other and shrugged.)
She doesn't stop thinking, doesn't turn off her learning (and this is something I AM sure many school kids do. It's partly a reaction to the pressure of school and something I did myself). She's constantly making connections from seemingly unrelated sources to build her knowledge about any number of things. A cheap cartoon or video game that may be veg-out material for some kids can spark a thought and conversation about some bit of history or literature. Subjects that have strict separations for many of us (math & history) merge and cross boundaries and spark different ideas (I should say this is all happening in DH and I as well, watching her is inspiring).
These are the things unschooling has done for her. If she were in school, I'm not so certain. Partly because of the faults I see in public education but also because I think I'd disconnect from her some. I'd make a terrible PS parent. So unschooling works for us because it's also engaged my DH and I in a lifestyle of learning and interests.
Anyhow, If she reads a little later but has gained all of the above, I can live with it.
Unschoolmom, I am just curious. Do you think that us parents that send our kids off to school do nothing with them at home then? I keep reading what you are doing with your kids that you are calling unschooling. Really, you don't do anything different or beyond what I do. If my dd is curious about something, I answer her questions and we look things up all the time. We go to the store and to the bank and we read and all of that also. My dd doesn't stop thinking or turn off her learning when she gets off the school bus. I guess I just don't get what you are doing with your dd that any of us that send our kids to school don't do with them also.
She doesn't stop thinking, doesn't turn off her learning and this is something I AM sure many school kids do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Huge generalization here. My kids don't turn off learning either, neither do most of their friends.
I think the most interesting thing to me is you are so sold on your way is right and you haven't even looked at the other way. I can understand that PS isn't for everyone, kids are different and have different needs. BUT most PS are pretty good at what they do and have done it successfully for years.
What I got from Annie's post is this, with your first child it is easy to miss what might be wrong. There are many kids that get into kinder and their parents had no idea they had a speech delay or a learning disablity. Like it or not, part of being able to determine how we are doing is using others as a ruler. This is why we have all these baby books, at 6 months, they do this and that. It is because if we catch issues early we have a high chance of rerouting those brain wires to make the connections work, if we wait past the window (which is usually age 6-7 due to brain development) then it is a lot harder for them to do new things. Think about skiing, if you throw an adult on skis for the first time and a 3 year old most of the time the 3 year old will be flying down the slopes way ahead.
When I read your posts I hear a lot of first time momisms. We all do it. The older my kids get the easier it is for me to recognize what a practice child my oldest is, by time I get to these same phases with my younger two I am able to put them in perspective easier.
You say your daughter is way ahead in many subjects, what are you basing this on? What some book says? What you are seeing in her peer groups? I don't think she is behind either (i also think we push to read to early), but the things she does sounds like a pretty typical day in my life too. My youngest is your daughters age. He goes to school all day, but he still comes home, plays computer games, writes stories, draws pictures, does elaborate research on star wars (he has written the 3rd episode and hopes he is right!) He is far from stiffled from the public school, as were all of my kids at this age. My point is, I don't think your daughter is that different from the norm and hs or ps chances are she would still be that way.
Andyjoy said...
"I think a large problem with structured schooling (whether private or public) is that teachers DON'T have an emotional investment in the individual child and thus reach a point where they decide they've done all they can to reach a child. A devoted parent, however, never gives up. A homeschooling mother may get frustrated along the way, but if she is wise, she will channel that frustration into finding a solution to teaching a topic in a way that best fits the child."
Excellent point! As I have told the principal at our school, there is no one who loves my child the way I do, or who is more interested in her future. They can easily tell me she needs drugs, more testing, blah blah blah, but at the end of the day they all go home and she is a distant thought. She is my every thought, along with her sisters, and doing what's best for them is what my life is all about. I won't let them ruin her, which is what they're doing!
Just for the record, many of the teachers have agreed that she has grown so much since starting homeschooling part time, and they fully credit it to what's going on here.
In response to the few posts about about kids turning off their learning when they get home, it is a common thing. If they have parents who look at the teaching moments in everything, and those moments are constant, that's great. I would guess that parents slowly stop doing this as the kids get older. We do our best to do it, but with the amount of homework they all have now, there's not much time left for that natural learning that is so interesting and fun for everyone.
As I've said before, each child and each family is different. I'm sure I could homeschool all of them, and I'm also sure they'd do just fine. I'm not going to, though, because I'm not sure it's what they all need. My long term plan is to take it year by year. :o)
Yes, Dawn, I was referring to you. I didn't have time to elaborate last night, sorry for the short post. I have been reading this thread thinking all along that your children were much older. Kaye had the correct assumptions of my post.
However, before I posted this one this evening, I reread some older posts regarding your "techniques" and how they are working within your family's dynamics. I glad it is working for you. Your approach for your dd's "education" is not one in which I would ever consider for my children but since you feel radical homeschooling is working in your dd's favor then I will respect that.
Kaye re: practice child... does that mean I needed twice as much practice the first time around, and it will be twice as easy with my next child? ;) LOL
I'm just trying to lighten the mood, debating things so intregal to how we parent can get ugly.
Kaye said...
>>
Unfortunately the school system also has a big problem identifying anything other than behaviour problems, which they are very quick to identify. The problem is, many of the behaviours are because of needs not being met, and frustration setting in on the child's part. I have had to fight tooth and nail to get what my kids need, and I will always have to do that. You might find a great teacher who realizes there's something that needs to be tapped in to, but it takes the board forever to cough up the funds to do it, and get someone in. The wait lists are long. So, even though the ideal time to deal with these things is before seven, and truly it's in very early childhood, being in the school system isn't going to guarantee that will happen.
Oops, somehow I didn't post the part of Kaye's message I was referring to. Here it is...
"What I got from Annie's post is this, with your first child it is easy to miss what might be wrong. There are many kids that get into kinder and their parents had no idea they had a speech delay or a learning disablity. Like it or not, part of being able to determine how we are doing is using others as a ruler."
Crystal, after twins, yes it will be twice as easy the next time!
Andyjoy, I specifically did not use the word all because when you are talking about children there are No Absolutes! Every child is different. Every parent is different. It has been my general experience as a teacher and as a student that the learning process was facilitated when there wasn't as much emotion, frustration, or baggage tied to it.
As a student, I was less likely to take risks with someone I loved than with a teacher I just knew in that capacity for fear of failure, for fear of being seen as somehow less in that person's eyes.
Also, it's nice for a child to feel that he or she accomplished something without the help of mommy or daddy. That he or she did it "all by myself". It can take a little away from the child's sense of when all his or her learning is tied to mommy or daddy.
I see it with my son. He's little, yet. An unschooler for sure. But he goes to preschool three mornings a week. He loves the interaction with other children. He is learning how to behave in a group situation. Most amazing, is that the teacher has been able to do things with him that I have not. I am no push over and I stick to what I say. He knows me as mommy, not as teacher (little does he realize I've been his teacher all his little life). Consequently, the minute something is too hard for him, he gets frustrated, whines and wants me to do it for him becaue I've been doing for him all along. It is very difficult for MANY (not all) children to understand and accept a switch in roles from helper to taskmaster.
Actually, having your mom for your teacher did have an impact on your education. You had a higher standard to achieve than your classmates. It must have been difficult for you. I'm glad you were able to take it as a positive experience.
You also take issue with my point about emotions getting in the way of learning. A teacher has to have an emotional investment in the his/her students. But the emotions are different. They are not the ones of a parent or of a person who cares for this child 24/7. Again, it's difficult to go from mommy to teacher.
Again, I'm speaking from my own experience. I will send my son to school because he'll enjoy it. He needs to learn how to get along in a group. How to establish himself in his peer pecking order, how to stand up for himself, how to show compassion for others. Being homeschooled, he would not have the chance to put these skills into practice.
Eventually , he needs to see that the world is not all bright and beautiful, that it has ugly parts and ugly (mean) people. He will need to be able to defend himself against them.
Going off on a tangent, sorry .
I think both have their place, but I believe that for most children group schooling is a better choice.
Ame
Kaye, thank you for posting more thought into what I was trying to say in my post too. LOL I only had a few minutes and after I thought about what I had said, I hoped it didn't come off as I didn't think she was doing something right. I just don't understand what you do that is different from what I do except you don't send your child to school.
I also STRONGLY agree with what Kaye said about not really knowing where your kids stand unless and until you actually compare them to their peers. When dd was in 1st grade I was very worried about her reading. Not because of anything the teacher ever said, but because of what I was hearing when she read. That was until I went into the school to read with kids. LOL It was then that I realized my dd was an excellent reader. LOL If I had not heard the others read with my own 2 ears, I was strongly considering getting extra help for her. LOL
I am hearing a lot of things that are not accurate about home-schooling.
I home-school not un-school. I feel I must mention that because their is a huge difference.
I know exactly where my kids are with their education. There are many ways to gauge. Not only are my children completing a grade specific curriculum, they also are tested to make sure they grasped the information. We have progress reports and report cards.
It is untrue to believe home-schoolers live in a bubble. Many (including us) belong to groups, team sports, etc. These all introduce my children to people of all types. They have still been bullied. They have had to stand up for themselves. They are not protected from the reality that some people are nicer than others.
When I first pulled my son, it took a month for him to adapt to my being the teacher. My daughter never needed to adapt because I always worked with her. They like me as a teacher because I do not yell...something their teachers were known for doing. We have asked them several times if they want to go back. Their response is always "NO". It certainly is not because they work less at home. We work at a higher level and a consistent pace in comparison to their old school. We are 100% certain that they are receiving the best education we can provide them with. To us the reason for home-schooling is about their education. If our public school was working for our children we would not have pulled them.
I do not think everyone should home-school. I do believe many more people are choosing to because of the overcrowded schools and the required testing. My children were in classes of 30 children. I certainly believe they are learning more 1 on 1 with me than they ever would 1 in 30 with a teacher.
What I am hearing the most in this thread is about un-school methods. Please do not put un-school and home-school in the same category.
They are two completely different things.
I am not real sure why whether to homeschool, unschool, or send to school one's child is debating material.
We all have different parenting styles. My best friend thinks my dd is spoiled but she can't get her ds to leave her side for anything. We disagree on some issues but I am not going to tell her that I do it better than her nor would I expect her to tell me that either.
For each of us who love our children from the bottom of our hearts, we make the best decision, right or wrong in retrospect, that we can for our own children. You can not make that decision for others children unless neglect or abuse is suspected.
My oldest ds loved school, never did too great, but loved going. Middle ds was picked on all the time and hated it but he went. Youngest ds has ADD and hated everything about school. So I homeschooled him his last 3 years. Dd who is 4 will probably go to public school. There are things about public school that I don't like. But she absolutely loves going to her mother's day out class 2 days a week. She's very smart and gregarious. I just don't think I can hold her from school. I don't think that I would be doing her justice bu I can always draw her out if I choose to later.
Homeschooling takes dedication and structure to do it well. I have seen some people who just do because they are, for lack of a better word, lazy. And that was probably me. Ds would spend all night every night finishing the day's school work and his homework bc he couldn't keep his attention on his work. I got tired of not having a life. So I homeschooled. You have to commit to 4 hours of education a day. I would develop his lesson plan with work that I thought should be about 4 hours worth a day. If he finished it in less time, he was free for the day. If it took him unitl 9 pm, he knew that had ruined his day. But then I have some friends who are absolutely excellent at it. When this friend's oldest dd asked to go to HS and the parents permitted, she was tested to make sure that she was up to snuff. This young lady tested so far above the average. I don't remember her scores but they were excellent. All 3 of the dd's in that family are the most well-behaved pleasant young ladies. And I know alot of families like theirs.
That's my soapbox for now. I think we should respect each other's views on how we raise our beautiful families even though we may not agree.
Debbie, you put into words what I was trying to say much more eloquently than I could. I think it's great to share our ideas and methods here, but "debating" this can turn into an attack (whether real or perceived) on one's parenting choices.
My children have learned more about real life and social skills from their time at home than they ever will at school. We have a house full of kids. They learn about sticking up for themselves right here. They know how to handle themselves with people of all ages. I don't think being abused at school, which is what some kids put up with, is a lesson that kids need to learn. If we had to deal with that as adults, we'd probably choose to leave the situation.
I'm certainly not trying to say that all kids should be homeschooled, but some of the reasons for being there aren't the best, in my opinion.
Again, 4 of my kids go to the public school, and only one is home with me. I will not watch her get crushed just so that she'll learn some lessons. I have 2 good friends who have young adult children with learning differences similar to 2 of my kids. They did what they felt was best, and kept them in the school system. They had tutors, and got the help they felt their kids needed. They have now both flunked out of college, and have horrible self esteem problems. They were treated very poorly by their peers, and it's greatly affected their lives. I will not let that happen to my kids. I know that most kids won't have to deal with that, but some will.
Unless you've dealt with it, you can't really understand that heartbreak.
I do agree that this is not a topic to be debated as far as saying one way is better than the other for the general public. I do think it's interesting to hear everyone's views, though.
As far as a debate, I think on this forum it is more about other here others viewpoints.
Marcia I agree that some kids are MUCH better off being homeschooled. I think as with all things parenting, you have to look at all of your choices and try them out before you make a judgement.
I guess I just don't get what you are doing with your dd that any of us that send our kids to school don't do with them also.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm keeping my kids out of school. I guess that's the big thing.
Of course I know many schooling parents do all the same stuff with their kids. My parents did it with me. But often the assumption is that as an unschooler I don't do much with my kids (so I have to repeat what I DO do) or that all that stuff we all do simply isn't enough for a child to educate themselves. So I try to make the points again about why I feel it is enough and why I feel it's best.
I HAVE been careful about using terms like 'many' or 'some' in regards to schooled kids so please don't assume I think this about all schooled kids. I think involved loving parents are the perfect antidote to school. ;)
Huge generalization here. My kids don't turn off learning either, neither do most of their friends.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I said many, not all or most.
I think the most interesting thing to me is you are so sold on your way is right and you haven't even looked at the other way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I went to school for 13 years. Watched my siblings and friends go. Talked to people about their school experiences. All my daughter's friend go to school and we talk. Spent a lot of time reading before I made the decision to homeschool let alone unschool. You're just seeing the end result here, not everything that went before.
Think about skiing, if you throw an adult on skis for the first time and a 3 year old most of the time the 3 year old will be flying down the slopes way ahead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe, and maybe it's how we approach learning? Is 6 -7 the time the door closes because of the way the brain works or because of the way we deal with children and learning? Some people CAN throw on skis as adults and fly down the hill. Some approach languages with ease at 35.
When I read your posts I hear a lot of first time momisms. We all do it. The older my kids get the easier it is for me to recognize what a practice child my oldest is, by time I get to these same phases with my younger two I am able to put them in perspective easier.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have a younger one. I'm a mom of two.
You say your daughter is way ahead in many subjects, what are you basing this on? What some book says?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is what I said, 'In most other respects she's at or beyond our prov, standards'. Not 'way ahead'.
And I wish I hadn't gotten into that. Part of why she's not in school is so that those milestones don't matter so much. What's inportant to me is that she reaches adulthood with a love of reading, not when it happens in childhood.
My point is, I don't think your daughter is that different from the norm and hs or ps chances are she would still be that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe. But there are objections I have to school that go beyond that. The marked paths of curricullum that need to be followed, the way knowledge is sorted into categories that rarely meet (is the history of math much discussed in math class? The effect of math on religion brought up in history - yes, I'm reading a related book, "The Nothing That Is; A history of Zero" Great, fun read guys ). The idea that learning comes from textbooks and teachers, is limited to certain times of the days. The idea that what's learned in school is of lasting value despite the fact that many of us are hard pressed to remember much of what we got A's in in school. The strange idea that mixes learning with authority. Lots of other stuff.
And yes, people can say that schools today aren't like that and all the kids they know are curious little people but I hear a kindergarten teacher remark that, 'you can't teach kindergartners anything,' and a group of teachers go on about how delightful kindergartnes are but how they lose their spark by Grades 1 or 2. I read about how our schools should promote critical thinking yet curricullums are designed to meet goals of patriotism or standardized test scores. I hear people who wonder how my kids will do in the 'real world' who will later go on about kids out of high school who have no idea how the real world works.
I understand that what I do with my kids is out of the ordinary only in terms of the time spent doing it but it's that time that's important to me. More time spent doing things that are important to my kids and no time spent in a system I have concerns about.
Your approach for your dd's "education" is not one in which I would ever consider for my children but since you feel radical homeschooling is working in your dd's favor then I will respect that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You can still tear a strip off me if you disagree! I don't agree with many of you about learning and school but I know my ideas come from my personality, my experiences, how our family works etc. I take it for granted that everyone here arrived at their choices after much thought and care and I respect that AND I respect their decisions. I just love a good argument to much to let it lie however.
Feel free to call me on anything you disagree with and know that I still understand there's respect between us. I've been told by some Americans on other boards that that's a very Canadian POV but I've seen it too many times in Americans to agree, here in particular.
practice child... does that mean I needed twice as much practice the first time around, and it will be twice as easy with my next child? ;) LOL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If only.
What I am hearing the most in this thread is about un-school methods. Please do not put un-school and home-school in the same category.
They are two completely different things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree. I was hoping more conventional Hsers would speak up because I know I'll go get all crazy about unschooling (yes, I know I sound like some fanatic radical at times...but then you school people should hear how you radical you sound from my side of the fence *ducking behind fence* ) and not reflect the views of most homeschoolers.
And heck, there's a huge range of people under the homeschooling banner that you and I both don't represent.
Not only are my children completing a grade specific curriculum, they also are tested to make sure they grasped the information. We have progress reports and report cards.
Is this something that is monitored by anyone? Are you accountable to anyone for your childrens schooling? It is my understanding that you are...am I correct in that?
Unschoolmom, are you accountable to anyone within the state or anywhere with your kids education?
I think this is where my biggest confusion with what you are doing come in to play. If your not monitored by anyone, couldn't parents just be keeping their kids out of school and say they are "unschooling" them? I know that isn't what you are doing, but is anyone out there keeping any kind of eye on those kids that are unschooled to make sure the parents are indeed teaching them what they need to learn?? Do your kids ever have to take any kinds of tests to get a hs diploma or anything? What will they get when they finish their schooling? Did you have to fill out any forms stating that you are unschooling them??
Do you understand what I am asking here?? LOL
Someone educate me on this please!! LOL
In Ontario you simply need to write a note to the board of ed, every year, stating that you're homeschooling. No one checks up on you unless a complaint is filed, but I would guess that rarely happens. If your kids have never been registered in school, you might not even have to send the letter.
Unschoolmom, I wasn't referring to you or anyone else here as a "weak" parent, since I don't know any of you personally. I'm talking about people I've known for many years who:
1. Rarely (if ever) say no
2. Have inconsistent standards
3. Don't set standards
3. Don't enforce the rules they make
4. Make excuses for their child whenever anyone else tries to correct bad behavior
5. Don't enforce the rules others make (teachers, other adults' house rules)
etc.
By structure, I don't mean a prescribed, scheduled, course of study, but a learning environment where something is expected of the child, he/she knows what that is, and the parent helps facilitate reaching that goal.
I, like your children, was raised in a home where I had a lot of say in famlily operations. I think that is healthy and good. What I'm talking about are families where the kid runs the show and mom/dad aren't even stage crew.
Yes, here there is accountability. Each state has different laws as far as what exactly that is.
In Florida you are required to either have a certified teacher go over the years work (also called portfolio option) or have end of the year testing. We are actually enrolled with a private school that keeps our school records. I test them to assure myself they have progressed as they should.
Some homeschoolers (I believe this is called unschooling but I may be wrong?) do not worry about grading or even what grade your child is in (they teach various levels as to what level the child is currently on).
I am not one of them. I believe in teaching grade specific and whatever else they are interested in as extra (much as mothers of children in "regular" school do).
My children are learning the exact same curriculum they would if they were in our local private school. I take homeschooling very seriously, after-all this is my children's education at stake! I have several teachers I can talk with should questions arise. Am I like most homeschoolers? Not necessarily. I would say 70% of my support group teach in the same manner as me. The rest are unschoolers or less structured.
As far as diplomas and graduation goes, we have several options. They could just take FCAT and the SAT. I may enroll them in A Beka academy which issues diplomas and transcripts. Many colleges are welcoming and encouraging enrollment from homeschoolers. Higher education is very important to us and we will do whatever is needed to make sure they go.
I'm one who teaches at different grade levels, depending on areas of strength and need. That's the whole reason I do it - to build on Nicole's strengths, and work on her areas of need. If she could so straight grade 6 work and get average marks, she would probably be at school full time. She can't. As long as she's consistently moving forward, I'm happy!
Ditto Kayla, although she's not homeschooled yet. She's nowhere near grade level in any subject, but will get closer and closer the more one on one time she gets.
Vicki - We have to provide an outline at the beginning of each year and a report at the end. If the depart. of Ed. has questions they can ask me to submit a portfolio of our children's work, have them tested or have a teacher assess them.
I'm torn about monitoring. Part of my resents it because, as Yvonne pointed out, some of us (me included) don't give marks or follow grades. But I think our system in this province is flexible enough to account for that. I know a few teachers who are enthusiastic about what we're doing and could take that into account on an assessment and I also have an accordian folder where I stuff odd pieces of art, math sheets, etc.
If your not monitored by anyone, couldn't parents just be keeping their kids out of school and say they are "unschooling" them?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's a possibility but if there's no monitering they wouldn't even have to say unschooling, just HSing.
I know that isn't what you are doing, but is anyone out there keeping any kind of eye on those kids that are unschooled to make sure the parents are indeed teaching them what they need to learn?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the same worry I hear about homeschooling in general from many people. I suppose we've got an informal network of people, from family to Hsing friends. We do have to submit a report at the end of each 'school' year. I'm torn on how much say the gov't SHOULD have however as most of the responsibility for education is shifted to the parents and we get no resources from the gov't at all.
Do your kids ever have to take any kinds of tests to get a hs diploma or anything?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If they want a diploma they'll have to attend high school or take provincially approved correspondance courses. It doesn't bother me much. I know of many Hser's and unschoolers who's kids go on to university without a diploma.
What will they get when they finish their schooling?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, they're not schooling. They won't get a prov. diploma, no.
Did you have to fill out any forms stating that you are unschooling them??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
No. Just a form to state we were HSing and an outline of what we expected to accomplish accomplish in the next year. Mine was fairly vague but the dept. of ed. must have thought it was acceptable.
Thank you both Yjja123 and unschoolmom. That is what I thought it was. It does seem like there is more accountability put on those that homeschool rather than unschool. I am not going to say that I am opposed to either one, however, I would feel better if more accountability would be placed on unschooling. I know it is none of my concern at all, but that is the biggest "problem" that I see with it. In theory, it sounds like a great plan, but there again, it really doesn't seem to be anything more than I do with my dd who also goes to a ps. I would never tell anyone htat what they were doing was wrong. We all do what we feel is best. As long as all of our kids turn out to be the best people they can be, who is to judge what is right for everyone!
I believe that it makes no difference what you call homeschooling....it's the state and county that make the accountability rules. Unschoolmom is in Canada which is much different. It doesn't matter that she's 'unschooling' rather than traditional 'homeschooling'. What matters is that she's in an area that doesn't require much accountability. What I'm trying to say is that there isn't more accountability placed on traditional homeschoolers, it's that the traditional homeschoolers HERE on this board, are in states that have high accountability. Our one unschooler is in a totally different country with different rules and regulations.
It does seem like there is more accountability put on those that homeschool rather than unschool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rereading my response, I wasn't clear at all.
I don't think there is any state or prov. gov't that differentiates between HSing and unschooling. As far as my Dept. of Ed. is concerned I'm a HSer and must meet the same requirments as any HSer. I think that's the same in most if not all states and provinces. Unschooling is more a designation used within the HSing community so we can understand each other's styles.
On the form I filled out I was asked if I was following a purchased curricullum (if yes, what one) or was making my own. I check making my own and have to give an outline of it and explain how it meets the expected learning outcomes of the provincial dept. of education.
|
Members
