I find it interesting that the media has really shyed away from the same terms used with Terri. They are speaking of putting in a gtube, the same type of tube that shivo just had removed. So if that was considered life support for her, should the Pope be put on life support? Now is the time that decision would have to be made, just like with terri we wondered why he even went there. I think the Pope is more terminal than she was, without feeding he will pass very quickly.

By Sunny on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:50 am:

I haven't been following the Pope's progress closely, but I thought the reason for the g-tube was because he was having trouble swallowing and needed the nutrition to build up his strength. Isn't he still cognizant and coherent? I don't know how that compares to the Schiavo case?

By Ginny~moderator on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 12:10 pm:

My father had Parkinson's and had a gtube and survived two years after it was inserted. This would indicate to me that the Pope,while frail, is not "terminal".

By Paulas on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 02:55 pm:

I think Sunny is right. Didn't he have a trach a few weeks ago and isn't that what is causing the swallowing problems now?

I don't think it is the same situation at all.

By Kaye on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 05:20 pm:

It isn't that he is having swallowing issues, he is just so frail that he isn't getting enough nutrients in. Without added calories he will continue to decline. I certainly think if they choose not to due "life support" which is what the schivo case has made know that "feeding through a tube" is considered, he would not improve. He is in very poor shape, he cannot speak do to the trache, but he is gettting worse and worse by the day, not just the parkinsons, but respitory issues also. Ginny, would your dad have lived 2 years without his gtube?

I think the similarities are this, both needed hydration and nutrition to continue life. With constant feeding Terri still would have lived many years. The pope is likey to die even with the feedings. We say people have the right to die with dignity, so why don't we just let nature take it's course with the pope, how long is it okay to keep him on life support? Would he really want to live that way. He is not able to speak his wishes any more, and I do not believe he is able to write either. Who will be appointed his guardian?

By Marcia on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 05:23 pm:

Terri wasn't terminal, either, until her tube was removed.
I'm watching CNN right now, and they've said the Pope has had last rights administered, although they're stressing that doesn't mean he will die immediately. They've also mentioned a breathing tube is still in his trachea, as well as the NG tube, and possibility of a G tube. He also has a very high fever and a UTI, which they've said is much harder to fight when you have Parkinson's. He sure is a lot sicker than Terri, since she wasn't sick at all. So, you're right Paula, the situations are not at all the same.
What a sad day.

By Ginny~moderator on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 07:48 pm:

No, my dad would not have lived 2 years without a g-tube, and imo it would have been better. But, my father also had multi-infarct dementia and the person who was my father was gone long before my mom opted for the g-tube. I used the word "survived" deliberately, because what was going in the two years after the g-tube was not, imo, "living".

The Pope, however, while frail, is still apparently in full control of his faculties, which imo is a whole other situation. The UTI and high fever is, of course, very worrisome.

BTW, Marcia, they don't call them "last rites" any more. It is the "sacrament of the sick and dying" and does not, as I understand what I am reading, mean death is imminent. It means a special blessing and a reaching for God's help for the sick person.

I am very afraid that the Pope is indeed going to die, however. While I have had many mental arguments with him over the years, I recognize that he is a Godly and God-blessed man, and is dearly loved by most of the Church and hundreds of thousands of others. Certainly what he endured in the years of religious oppression in Poland before he was elected and that he survived all of that and did become Pope is a sort of miracle. I will pray for him and, if God calls him, will mourn his passing and the loss to the Church and the world.

By Marcia on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 09:38 pm:

Ginny, just reporting the words that were said both of CNN and their site. I'm not Catholic, so I won't pretend to know all of the terminology used in the Catholic church. I understood the same thing you did, and that's why I said the same thing -"although they're stressing that doesn't mean he will die immediately".

By Ginny~moderator on Friday, April 1, 2005 - 12:02 am:

Apologies, Marcia. Yes, some stations have probably used the words "last rites" - it sounds so dramatic and breath-taking, and they are much more concerned about ratings than accuracy. I was listening to NPR on the way home from work, however, and they used the phrase "what used to be called the 'last rites' and is now called the 'Sacrament of the Sick'". I know it takes more words and is less dramataic, and it's a bit snobbish, but at least NPR tried to get it right instead of being sensational. (I'm not Catholic either but, because of one of my work situations and general interest, tend to pay attention to religion-related matters and picky details. ((You know what they say - the devil is in the details, and goodness, that sure applies to religion sometimes.)) )

By Bobbie~moderatr on Friday, April 1, 2005 - 12:11 am:

Marcia, that is just it... The people that report the news are human and they add human emotion to facts and trump them up to draw media attention. What you see on the media is not always fact based and the lines of truth and opinion are skewed. In this case and in the case with Terry. We aren't there and we don't know the truth. There are shades of gray all over our lives yet we are fed either the black or the whites.

Example: Dan Rather/Bushes military records. The weapons of mass destruction that didn't even exist. The selected coverage on the news is what leads to uninformed debates. You have the people that truly believe whatever the reporter says and that "news" carries forward to spread the story in all its falsehood. We are spoon fed garbage every day and we eat it up like we can't get enough.

By Paulas on Friday, April 1, 2005 - 01:58 am:

They have reported tonight that the Pope has gone in to heart failure. Please pray for him.

By Katiesmommy on Friday, April 1, 2005 - 07:16 am:

The Pope had a living will...Terri did not.

By Missmudd on Friday, April 1, 2005 - 11:43 am:

I am Catholic, funny about last rites. If you ask any cradle Catholic (Me me me) it is still very much last rites in our minds. When my mom almost died because of a stroke the priest came and asked if he there was anything that he could do. I told him to perform last rites because it didnt look like my mom would make it. He corrected me and told me that it was now called anointing of the sick, I told him to perform last rites because my mom would not understand about the name change and that she would want to know that she was going to God in a way she believed. He didnt argue w/ me. So the name has changed and at least in our neck of the woods, it has met some resistance. I dont know why the name was changed in the first place, I guess the name makes it so final, but I always thought that if you were having last rites it did mean you were going to die unless God had other plans. It isn't for if you were sorta sick it is for when you are gravely ill and ready to pass away. Any other Catholics out there w/ a different take on this?

By Bea on Friday, April 1, 2005 - 04:35 pm:

I was given the sacrament of Extreme Unction. (Last Anointing) before I had an exploratory operation at the age of 16. It was given to me then...because I was in danger of death. I understand that today it is titled "The Sacrament of the Sick. To my knowledge, it is still only administered to people who are GRAVELY ill. I wasn't dying when I received it in 1963, and it seems to me that the only change here is an effort not to frighten people who receive this sacrament. I know it terrified me.