More Candiadte Mess
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): More Candiadte Mess
Hillary has done it again. She recently described a trip that she and Chelsea made to Bosnia in 1996. She said that instead of the expectant welcoming group, that she and her party (including Sheryl Crow and the comedian Sinbad), had to duck sniper fire and run to their waiting cars. Sinbad stated that that was entirely false and they actually showed a video of a little girl standing on a platform reading a poem of welcome. What the heck? When confronted, Hillary said that she "mis-spoke". I guess that's "different" from flat out lying. I think that the Clintons have got lying down to such a fine science that they don't even REALIZE that they are lying!
Then the Obama deal with his minister. The cleryman has made some very inflammatory and outrageous statements. Obama claims that he doesn't support that ideology. Yet he has been a memeber of the church for twenty years, and this pastor married he and his wife. I have left churches because I could not reconcile what the pastor preached, and those were just doctrinal interpretations. I definitely would leave if the minister epoused hatred, racism, and sedition.
I am so confused. Everytime I THINK I may have found my candidate, something else comes out. (By the way, it was NEVER Hillary for me).
John McCain wants to keep the war going for another 100 years. Geesh!
If you think this is bad, Hol, wait until after the Democratic candidate has been picked and the slime machines (from both sides) get going. Personally, I don't pay attention to any one or two sentence mis-statements or criticisms, either in advertisements or e-mails.
By the way, Senator Clinton has described that event many, many times, verbally and in writing, and this is the first time she has described it this way. It really could be a mis-statement.
As for McCain, I think he is an honorable man, and I think he holds the Constitution in high value. But he does think we were right to go to war in Iraq and that we should stay there indefinitely (4,000 dead U.S. troops now, tens of thousands wounded - and so many not getting appropriate care and getting run-arounds from the VA and the disability system - and costing up to $2 billion per week). He thinks the government should just stand back in the current economic crisis and let things sort out in a "free market" manner.
As for Obama's preacher, the quotes to a great extent have been taken out of context - out of context of his sermons (and they were only a few sermons) and out of context of his life. Under his leadership, that church carried out (and still carries out) many programs in the community relating to helping AIDs victims, low income families (of which there are thousands in that community) and many other good and valuable social programs. And, from what I know and have read, he was not (and is not) the only African-American preacher who sometimes preached in that manner. According to Obama, this is the man who brought him to faith, to Christ, and married him, and baptised his children. I can understand why Obama would not turn his back on the man who brought him to faith. To be technical, sedition is "conduct or language inciting rebellion against the United States". If the quotes are correct, the Rev. Wright did not commit sedition. And, I have read that in that particular sermon he was actually quoting what someone else had said. Do I approve of what Rev. Wright has said in some of his sermons - no. But, knowing what I know of how Blacks and the Black community were treated, certainly in Chicago, in the time Rev. Wright was growing up and beginning his ministry, I can understand the anger. You have, I'm sure, seen the photos of the White mob screaming and spitting on some little Black girls as they walked up the sidewalk to a school in Little Rock in the mid-50s. I saw it on television, every day, for days and days. And southern police setting dogs on peaceful marchers. And all the rest. As recently as the late 1980s, there was an event in Chicago where a car with some Black boys in it stalled outside of Tilden Tech, an all-White vocational school in Chicago. The students poured out of the school and beat those boys to death.
It will never be McCain for me. I still don't know how I'm going to vote in Pennsylvania's primary on April 22nd. I do know I will not vote for a Republican president, no matter who the Democratic candidate is. Even if I felt about Hillary Clinton as you do, in a visceral way, I would be deeply concerned about McCain's stated goals and political principals and what it would mean for the country to be under his leadership, and could not vote for him. For the primary, I will try to make my choice based on the candidates' overall positions on issues that matter to me (the war, the economy, health care, for examples), and my overall assessment of each candidate's character, the likelihood that the candidate will try to and be able to keep at least some of the major promises made, and the ability of the candidate to actually work with Congress and to pick good advisers and good people to lead the various goverment agencies (especially the Justice Dept and Homeland Security and the FDA). And, frankly, electability. I really don't want another Republican president.
I'm going to continue to listen to but not give a lot of weight to the occasional mis-steps and mis-statements the candidates will certainly make, and I will definitely not pay any attention to any e-mails or to the ads and commercials put up by outside groups that don't identify their financial supporters (and that includes Move-On, as well as whoever the Swift Board financiers choose to support).
Ginny on the today show they played three different clips where she talked about landing under sniper fire, then played the video of her on the tarmac talking to the little girl. She lied, pretty plain and simply she lied. Now was it over something huge, no, it was an embellishment because it makes her sound more impressive. That isn't a big deal, but the fact that she was caught and then said, on I misspoke. She should have said, I am sorry.
I voted obama in the primary. So far he has my vote for president. But between hillary and mccain, I go republican. I think if the worst thing McCain has against him is the belief that we need to be a war, then I am okay with that. Because although I didn't agree when we went in, I do think leaving is a mistake. I do think they have become a breeding ground for crazies and if we don't try to fight it, it is only a matter of time before the come back to us soil. It is sad that people died, but in my opinion there deaths were for our safety.
As far as Obama preacher, yep he said some bad things. I guess though being in the south there has always been a lot of racism here. It goes both ways, but we are far from nonsegregated. And let's be real, look at the oj case, black people believe in his innocence, whites don't. We are a very divided country and mostly black people don't benefit from that, so they have a chip on their shoulders. It makes sense to me.
I agree that she flat out tried to make something sound much better than it really was. If she is misspeaking about this, what else is she misspeaking about? How on earth do you remember something so totally different than how it was? I also saw the clips of her speaking and right after that, the clips of how it really was. Not even close. No way you go from one to the other by accident. She was trying to make her experience sound better. I never have trusted her and I never will.
I also agree with you about the war Kaye. People can debate now whether we should be there or not, but there wasn't much debate when it first happened. Wasn't there a vote and it supported Bush in going in? Pulling everyone out now, I believe, will be a HUGE mistake. I would be shocked if either Obama or Clinton end up doing it either. Once they take office, they will come out with some statements about how devistating it would be to pull everyone out. They might cut back on the force, but we will have to be there for years to come. Hind sight is always 20/20. Maybe we never should have been there, but we are now, so you have to deal with your current situation. I honestly believe McCain is just stating the truth about having to be there and the other 2 are saying what might be popular right now. No one WANTS to be there, but what we want and what needs to be are two different things. As I said, I will be shocked and will have to admit to being wrong if either Clinton or Obama get us out without major tourmoil going on.
I don't like Hillary, but this lie that she told doesn't bother me, all politicians lie and unfortunately that's just the way it is. If I was voting Democrat, I would be far more concerned about Obama's connection with this minister, he won't distance himself from him, he has given a significant amount of money to that church. I have heard more of that speech and it didn't make me feel any better about him. I also do not think Obama can get elected running against McCain. I do not like McCain either, I guess I am voting for who I dislike the least at this point.
Well, I remember when everyone was saying that if we pulled out of Viet Nam it would be a disaster. And, for a short period of time it was. We are now trading with Viet Nam quite comfortably.
I have somewhat mixed feelings about pulling out. On the one hand, I am sort of feeling "you broke it, you bought it". We are the ones who caused such devastation to Iraq, physical devastation, loss or significant cutback of critical services, and tremendous loss of life. And I can understand staying until we fix it.
On the other hand, I feel like the present Iraq, and certainly the present Iraqi government, doesn't want to be fixed. The surge began about 9 months ago, intended to bring about a reduction in violence so that the Iraqi government could get its act together. Yes, violence (until yesterday and today) has dropped and sectarian violence has dropped. Many (me among them) are convinced that one of the reasons sectarian violence has dropped is because so many people of one sect or the other have left their homes and moved into enclaves where only one sect (Sunni or Shiite) lives, thus reducing the opportunity for sectarian violence. Hundreds of Sunnis have signed up with the U.S. program that trains them to become part of the Iraqi policing forces, but the Iraqi government is not bringing them into the police forces, and we continue to have to pay these men we have trained to be more effective soldiers. The Iraqi government has not and is not using the results of the surge to get its act together, even with all the pressure Secty. Rice and others have tried to bring to bear. And why should they? As far as they know - those men sitting in the Iraqi parliament - they have nothing to lose if they don't make difficult decisions and work to bring about reconciliation between the various groups - and maybe a lot to lose. They appear to believe that as long as there are problems in Iraq, we'll continue to prop up this government we put in place. (Yes, I know there were elections, but elections don't make a democracy.)
I think that unless we are prepared to stay in Iraq for at least a full generation (20-30 years), AND financially and militarily support the Iraqi government, AND deal with the very high unemployment problems, AND find permanent ways to restore electrical service and water service, roads, hospitals, schools, etc. - I think unless we are prepared to do and to pay for all those things, in dollars and in lives, that any time we leave it will be a godawful mess. And I don't think that we can afford to do that. Our military forces are paying a huge price, enlistments are down, non-coms and officers are opting out in high numbers, equipment is deteriorated and needs replacing, and as troops are re-cycled through Iraq 3 and 4 times, they and their families are wearing out.
And the financial cost - unbelievable. For what we have spent on this war we could have provided health insurance for every U.S. citizen; we could have taken care of Social Security AND Medicare for the foreseeable future, and heaven knows what else we could have done. When this war started, oil was at $63 a barrel; now it is over $100 a barrel, and the cost of oil figures into everything you do, not just your own driving.
The Defense Department's budget isn't large enough to pay for proper and complete medical and psychiatric care for the troops injured in Iraq, and can't hire enough people to process disability approvals in a timely manner. The Defense Department is actively working against a bill in Congress that would provide the equivalent of the post WWII GI Bill to Iraqi vets, making full college tuition available to them. (If you think vets get free tuition or a free college education, think again.) It's not bad enough that we have homeless vets from the Viet Nam war, we now have homeless vets from the Iraq war.
I don't believe that the deaths in Iraq were for our safety or in any way kept us safe. I hear, over and over, the mantra that we are fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here, and I think that is so much baloney. The men who planned and participated in 9/11 were Saudis, recruited and trained by Al Qaeda (in Afghanistan and Pakistan - NOT Iraq). Al Qaeda in Iraq is not Bin Laden's Al Qaeda (which is mostly in Pakistan and partly in Afghanistan) - it's a home-grown entity that never existed until after we invaded and disbanded the Iraqi army (without, I might add, disarming them). I don't understand why anyone thinks that it is not possible for another group of 10-20 people to come into this country and bring about another devastating attack. Not by crashing airplanes into buildings, but perhaps by poisoning water sources, blowing up electrical power lines, releasing deadly poisons or viruses into crowded spaces. Any of these things and hundreds more are possible, and our fighting in Iraq is not preventing them. I believe it is our presence there that enables the crazies to recruit young men and women who basically want the invaders out of their country.
I read Trudy Rubin a lot - a columnist who has spent a lot of time in the Middle East and specifically Iraq, over the last 5+ years. She appears to be accurate when she cites facts (that is, I can find other reliable sources that say the same things and/or give the same numbers). I recommend reading what she writes about Iraq and the Middle East in general. I recommend her writings to you.
I have pretty much avoided discussing this war on the MV board. But I am so disheartened and upset by the battling going on right now in Basra, with the Mahdi "army" fighting the Iraqi peace-keeping forces, machine guns, grenades and rockets going off. People in Basra and most of Baghdad are not leaving their houses, because anyone on the street will likely be shot by one side or the other. And this is with the surge being 9 months old. All it took was for Al-Sadr's army to end the "cease fire" it had called (although the cease-fire hasn't officially ended - it's just that the battles have started).
Ginny, I too am old enough to remember segregation: George Wallace blocking the doors of the public school to bar Black students, the Freedom Riders, the bombing of Black churches, killing little girls; turning fire hoses on people. And, I remember in the 1990's, the horriffic beating of Reginald Denny, a white man, after Rodney King was found guilty of assaulting a white poilce officer. Racism goes both ways.
Racism and hatred are DANGEROUS, regardless of who the haters are. Hitler rose to his horrble position of power because hate filled propaganda regarding Jewish people was allowed to proliferate and be disseminated. Jews were made the scape goats for all of the financial and social ills of Europe in the 1930's.
Inflammatory speech is toxic and dangerous. When a clergyman says that "AIDS was invented by the White man to kill the Black man", and that we brought the horrors of 9/11 on ourselves; that it isn't "God Bless America" but "God D*** America"...scary stuff. In my opinion, that IS sedition because it is stirring up hatred and causing division and polarization that COULD lead dangerously to threatening the unity of the United States. Maybe the minister DID do a lot of good in the community (although was all that charity dealt to the poor WHITE community as well)? In the Bible, even Satan quotes Scripture. Don't be fooled by the good works.
I can understand a certain affection for the minister by Obama for the reasons that you mentioned. However, to sit under someone's preaching for twenty years, and claim ignorance on the pastor's views, or disagreement with "some of it" speaks volumes.
Ginny, I do agree with everything that you have said about Iraq, but I have no respect for Hillary bashing the policies when she voted to go to war. She is also NOW opposed to NAFTA, but she and her sophomoric husband fought to pass it.
And Vicki, ditto to everything you said.
Why do we hold Obama to a higher standard than we hold McCain. McCain has accepted and will not reject the endorsement of pastors who say that 9-11 happened because America tolerates gays. Is that not inflammatory and hate speech? But McCain does not reject the endorsement of those religious leaders, and he is not castigated, and only mildly blamed a few times. And, I don't read that Obama claimed ignorance, only disagreement. He has said he heard the same words, and disagreed with them, but put them in the context of his relationship with Wright, Wright's entire ministry, and Wright's entire preaching. When you blame Obama for disagreement with only "some of it", you are assuming that Wright preached the same thing every Sunday, which is demonstrably not true.
I am not inclined to vote for Obama, and never have been, for a lot of reasons, but none of them have to do with the Rev. Wright. I am defending Obama, and Wright, because I believe it is very unfair to take one thing, or a few sermons, out of a man's whole life, and hold that up as a reason to reject the entire person. I have yet to see a person, or a presidential candidate, who doesn't have some flaws - minor and major. I believe it is important to look at the whole person, the whole candidate, and what the candidate stands for and all of the policies the candidate promotes.
As for whether that church did its charity work in the poor white community, probably not, because the poor white communities were far removed from the community in which the church is based. I lived in Chicago until 1966, and visited there until 1991. Chicago is, or at least was until the 1980s, a very segregated city, and the boundary lines were very clearly drawn. Given where the church is located, I strongly doubt there were any white families for many miles. My parents lived in Englewood, three blocks from 63rd & Halsted, and they were probably the only white family for at least 4-5 miles in any direction.
As for Iraq, I don't think anyone is going to get us out without major turmoil unless we are there for at least 20-30 years. And our being there for 20-30 years will only continue the turmoil, the recruiting of young people to commit terrorist acts, and be a rationale for Iran and other Middle East nations to continue to hate the U.S. I think it's a no-win situation, as was Viet Nam. I think what happens over the next few weeks in Basra and and Baghdad, between Al-Sadr's Mahdi army and the Iraqi police and military forces, will be very telling.
I am sure that there is going to be something that everyone disagrees with. I bet even every president and vice president in history have had some things they don't see eye to eye on. I think the difference between Obama and McCain is the very close relationship Obama has with his pastor. I highly doubt McCain is that closely linked to a church with a pastor that preaches that 9-11 happened because America tolerates gays and he sits there on Sunday and listens to it.
I think Ginny and Holly should run for president 
Annie, not being a masochist, not having any desire to be a martyr, and having many things in my life that I don't want to become known throughout the world - no thanks.
Ditto, Ginny. However, thanks for the compliment, Annie.
Great reply Ginny
I just wish I could confidently vote FOR someone instead of NOT voting for someone. 
ditto Rayelle.
I think we all wish that, Rayelle and Colette. I haven't felt that way for several elections.
|
Members
