What do you think of this????
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): What do you think of this????
This story has been all over the news.
How can anyone tell you,you have to spank your children???
Around here its considered child abuse...
School warns: hit your son or he's out
Gary Younge in New York
Tuesday March 8, 2005
The Guardian
A six-year-old boy was suspended from a Christian school near Chicago last week after his mother refused to hit him for misbehaving.
In recent months Chandler Fallaw had returned home from Shaumburg Christian school with disciplinary notes for showing off, offering his teacher chewing gum, not finishing his work and bringing toys into class.
When his mother, Michelle Fallaw-Gabrielson, went to pick him up last week she was told by the assistant administrator: "Either he gets a spanking before he leaves today, or I'm suspending him."
Ms Fallaw-Gabrielson refused. The administrator told her: "You know he's suspended, and that's a very serious matter on his record."
The school, run by the Bethel Baptist church, advocates "parent-administered corpo ral punishment" for children from nursery to secondary school age. "When this becomes necessary, parents will be asked to administer this form of punishment," says the school's rulebook.
"Our policies are reasonable, they are legal; they are in writing," the school administrator, Randy Thaxton, told the Chicago Tribune. "When it gets to the point where the teacher can't solve the problem in the classroom, and the administration can't solve the problem, we ask parents to fix the problem.
"We'd say: 'Look, our policy is you have an option. You can spank your child, or we will suspend him for the day.'"
Ms Fallaw-Gabrielson said: "I was so shocked that they were putting me in this situation. By no means is my child perfect, [but] I'm a huge communicator and I feel like physical [punishment] is not the answer."
Wow I don't quite know what to say, that seems like a violation on your rights as a parent. I think it is totally wrong. It kind of makes Christian schools look bad. The bible does say in Proverbs 13:24 - He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. But no one should be forced to "hit" their child.
I'd run as fast as I could from a school like that.
While I agree with Collette, I'd get away from a school like that, there are some other facts. This is a private school, which the parent selected and for which she is paying tuition. One would hope she was aware of the rules when she registered her child at that school. (I also wonder where she was when he put the toys in his backpack to take into school, and the chewing gum.)
I suspect that if it got into court in Illinois it would not be considered child abuse, but I have very strong feelings against any school instructing or demanding that a parent strike a child (which is what spanking is).
As for the scripture from Proverbs, I'm not at home so I don't have my bible handy, but there are lots and lots of verses and passages I could quote about what should be done in certain situations that would have us all running for the hills.
Ditto Colette! Corporal punishment in schools is actually illegal in Illinois. Although the school isn't actually spanking the kids, like Ginny, I have VERY strong objections against a school demanding parents to do so!
Here's an article regarding corporal punishment in schools and state laws.
http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0,1120,1-3980,00.html
I taught for several years in a private, Christian school (Catholic) and corporal punishment was NOT allowed or encouraged in any way, shape or form.
Aha - that explains why the school has the parents do it. What a weasely way to get around the law.
I don't mean to offend anyone and maybe this is a bit off topic, but I think we have to be careful when taking the bible too literally, what about the Man who said "Turn the other cheek"? My point is that we can take any quote and take it out of context and use it suit just about any situation.
I don't believe in spanking and I certainly would not allow a school to force me to punish my child in a certain way. It does sound like this child has some behavioural problems that need to be dealt with, however, I think the school's approach to the situation is rediculous. I think that it's ok to suspend a child for poor behaviour, but totally unrealistic to suspend him because his parents won't hit him. Who are they punishing, the parents or the child? How does this resolve anything unless the parent agrees and spanks? Makes no sense to me.
What about sitting down like reasonable human beings and coming up with something that works for both the school and the parents?
also, the boy is 6. I work with 6yr old children all the time and most of them do the type of things listed above. There are much better ways to take care of this than smacking a child. But, it is also kind of the mother's own fault for enrolling her child in a school that has these kinds of rules.
Corporal punishment is still legal in Texas for the public schools. Individual districts can decide whether to do it or not.
I don't know what the policy is in the bazillion religious schools we have around here. I do know of one that was for LD kids, that also insisted the parents spank their kids. That school closed! Many parents put their dyslexic kids into that school knowing it was religious, but not knowing their views on spanking. And most of them withdrew their kids as soon as they found out. This city has quite a few LD schools (none religious) and the parents found placement elsewhere. Shortly thereaftet the school closed.
I agree with Ginny. That I would run the opposite direction but this is a private school. She is choosing to put her son in it, is paying for her child to be taught there and should have researched their preferred methods of discipline.
Wouldn't be a school that I would choose for my child, but she did. So why is pitching a fit now about following their rules??
Anyone can take the Bible anyway they want but that is what the scripture says whether you agree or disagree. How can you twist when it plainly says he that spareth his rod hateth his son? And what about the man that said turn the other cheek? I don't quite understand your question, if the Bible says turn the other cheek then turn the other cheek. I do not beat my children, but there is nothing wrong with a swat on the bottom, when they do something and time-out does not work, and talking does not work, and grounding them does not work.
As I said before I do not agree with them making the woman spank her child, it should be her own decision, and if she is against discipline in that way then that is her option.
This is probably one of those policies that is in fine print and not clearly stated at the time of enrollment.
I understand what your saying Trina, but I feel that as a parent, it is your job to know how your school handles basic things such as discipline! I also can't believe that this is the first time in the schools history that this rule has been enforced. It seems pretty plain to me:
The school, run by the Bethel Baptist church, advocates "parent-administered corpo ral punishment" for children from nursery to secondary school age. "When this becomes necessary, parents will be asked to administer this form of punishment," says the school's rulebook.
If the mother bothered to read the rulebook, this should be no big surprise to her. If she didn't read it, then she has no one to blame but herself. Am I saying that I agree with it... no way! No one is going to tell me that I have to spank my child! But I also would never put her in a school that had that type of policy either. That being said, if I did have her in a private school, I would hope they had stronger discilpine rules than public schools. I am not saying that I think public schools should bring back paddeling, but I do think they have went too far in the other direction!! Getting off point here.
It just burns me when things like this become big news. I have no doubt that there will be some kind of big law suit over this. Wasted money and time... It is/was a rule of the school plain and simple. If she didn't take the time to read the book and learn the rules of the school, it is only her own fault!
First of all, it is ridiculous to make a big deal about how a suspension is a "serious matter on his record" Give me a break, the kid is six! I don't think this is going to jeopardize his chances of getting into med school.
I would never advocate spanking a child, and I know I would have done the same thing as the mother in this story. Nevertheless, this is a private school and they can set in place whatever policies they feel are appropriate. This mother had a choice, and she chose not to spank and take the suspension.
Personally, it doesn't sound like his behaviour was sooo terrible. What six year old doesn't show off on occasion, want to bring toys to school, and Geez, at least he was going to share his gum 
I think that sometimes a swat on the rear is a very effective way to get your point across, (but i cant remember the last time I had to resort to spanking w/ any of my kids) however who is really the boss here? The parent is paying for her child to be educated, she is the really the person in charge. The school should be supporting a positive parent child relationship and trying to find a positive way to hand this kids misbehavior. I think that waiting til mom came in and then telling her to spank him is waiting way too long. I wouldnt spank my 4 or 8 yo hours after their misbehavior. It isnt fair to them, to them I would imagine that they can be spanked for anything that happened anytime in the past. My 4 yo I doubt would really remember exactly what he did that far into the future and I question if my 8 yo would either. They do know however there are lines that can not be crossed and that there are real and definate consequences to bad behavior. If I had been the parent in this situation I would have told them to, well I just cant post that on the boards....
I live in a Chicago Suburb, so this has been all over our local news. I definitley do not believe in spanking and I think it is ridiculous that the school does this. It is a private school and they do have the parents spank the children, that is how they get around the law. However, the school has been on the news defending its position. They feel these parents should have never enrolled their child in the school if they didn't agree with their rules. I agree with the school on that. It is stated in the student handbook that this is the way that they deal with punishment. It is clearly started, so there is no misunderstanding. The parents have to sign a form stating that they reviewed the handbook. So, I am wondering why they enrolled their child here if they didn't agree with their form of punishment. I definitley do not agree with the school policy and would never send my child here. But, this mother even said on an interview that she knew the policy, she just never thought it would be an issue with her child. She is now homeschooling her child.
There is a proper way of spanking and it works. Not many people practice it. They get pushed to a limit and spank their children to release their frustration which is not correct and does not help in any way. I would not choose to go to a school where I did not agree with the standards and principles and practices. She chose to go to school there and hopefully read the handbook. She is correct to leave the school if she disagrees. If the school does endorse spanking I agree with the parents doing it. It is their responsibility to discipline their children not the schools.
As for spanking we practice it and it does not contaminate the situation. we are always calm and make sure she understands why and then we give her s swat on the bottom make sure she knows why and always hug her afterward. We use phrases like "we are trying to help you learn to listen" or before hand when she is not listening we ask them " do you need help listening" and they always say no and sometimes that is usually enough.
As far as the Bible quote given above...
Those that use the "Spare the rod..." passage from Proverbs to support spanking should study the Hebrew more closely.
The original Hebrew word is shebet. Which can also be translated scepter or staff in addition to "rod"
These other words are probably closer to the original intent of the passage to admonish Parents to act as shepherds to their children (being the sheep) by guiding them back to the correct path (the rest of the flock).
BTW, Psalm 23 also uses "shebet" for the shepherd's "rod" i.e. "...thy rod and thy staff they comfort me..."
And if guiding them back to the correct path uses a swat on the butt then so be it. And re: psalms 23, there is comfort in knowing that someone loves you enough to discipline you and make sure you are the person you are meant to be.
I agree 100% with Julie, some parents let their children push and push until they cannot take it anymore then they spank out of anger, That IS wrong! There is a certain way to handle things and children do have the right to not be beaten!
In this case the mother should have never put her child in this school anyway, unless she was willing to abide by the rules. period.
John,
What a beautiful interpretation. I love that!
Exactly Debbie. That is exactly what I thought it was. She did know that this is what the school policy was but she never thought it would involve HER child. She chose to send her child there knowing what the rules of the school were. That is why I get so irritated that this is even a big news story! Again, I don't agree with the rules of the school and I would never send my child there, but she did!! And now, it becomes big news. And I am sure it wasn't the school that called the news stations to make it big news. Argh...
AMEN!!!!!!! Vicki, agree 100%
By the way, In the United States, the law is done state by state and in MOST states it is not against the law to spank your children...
Example: The state of ILLINOIS says....
An "abused child" includes any child whose parent/immediate family member/person responsible for the child's welfare/individual residing in the same house/paramour of child's parent inflicts excessive corporal punishment. Secs. 325 5/3/ [Ci.]
Thus it is not against the law to spank your child it is against the law to beat your child...
Here look up your state
Not all states have a ban on spanking in schools either.. It is done state by state and in some cases district by district...
Facts About Corporal Punishment in School
People assume that the United States has a law against corporal punishment and there is no law.. It is mandated on a state by state basis and the school rules are based not only on the state legislation it is based on the school districts decision.
The significance of the Proverbs passage making an analogy between Parents and shepherds is that shepards never hit the sheep with their staff... if they did the sheep would run away and never come back.
Instead they guide them, in some cases using the hooked end of the staff around the neck of the sheep, to get them to stay with the rest of the flock.
BTW, this interpretation of the hebrew text is not mine. I can post links to biblical scholar sites if anyone is interested...
John,
I would like it very much if you would post this info. Thanks.
This is not Juli4, it's her husband. John's post happened to interest me so I thought I'd look at it. I'm not trying to be exhaustive here, just look at what Solomon says in the book of Proverbs. Let me know what you think, disagreeing strongly will not hurt my feelings in any way.
Solomon seems to use shebbet in only one sense in the entire book of Proverbs.
Shebet (shay’-bet)
• 10:13 – on the lips of the discerning, wisdom is found, but the shebbet is for the back of him who lacks understanding (clearly a rod for striking)
• 22:8 – He who sows iniquity will reap vanity, And the shebbet of his fury will perish. (clearly not a rod of parental or shepherd correction but of fury)
• 22:15 – foolishness is bound up in the heart of the child but the shebbet of discipline will remove it far from him (the clear answer to this usage is in the next verse)
• 23:13 – do not hold back discipline from the child, although you strike him with the shebbet he will not die (clearly a rod for striking)
• 23:14 – you shall strike him with the shebbet and rescue his soul from hell (clearly a rod for striking)
• 26:3 – a whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a shebbet for the fool’s back (clearly a rod for striking)
• 29:15 – the shebbet and reproof give wisdom, but a child who gets his own way brings his mother to shame. (the only passage not clearly a rod for striking but based on Solomans lexical use of the word every other time it probably is)
• 13:24 – he who spares the shebbet hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently (even reading these verses with no Hebrew whatsoever, who would ever come to the understanding that the rod does not refer to spanking? It does in every other verse in proverbs)
This isn’t a biblical theology of spanking. I’m not going to go into the limitations, scope, reasons, etc of spanking. I just wanted to look at how Solomon uses the word “rod” every time he wrote it in the book of Proverbs.
If you say “I went up to the attic and got the “trunk” down.” I wouldn’t begin listing every definition of “trunk” that you may mean (tree trunk, elephant trunk, car trunk, box in the attic). I let the context tell me what you mean. But if “trunk” were in the bible, in essence we look up the word, pick out the definition that we like best or will “really preach” and plug that word in every time we see the word. (I call this ‘strong’s disease). A clear example of this is the fear of the Lord. People have replaced fear with words like revear everywhere it occurs because they don’t like to think of having to “fear” God. But there are places where the fear of the lord is literally fear. Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul, rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I also find it interesting that the meaning of these passages can definately
be slanted a certain way depending on what you are looking for. Obviously the 16th century KJV translators of Proverbs chose to use "rod" rather than other possible alternate words when translating these passages.
Regarding the passages above:
KJV Proverbs 22:15 "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him".
The word translated correction or discipline here is muwcar {moo-sawr'}
Which in the VAST majority of other parts of the Old Testament is translated as "instruction"
and used for example in :
Proverbs 1:2 "To know thy wisdom and instruction"
The word translated child here is na`ar {nah'-ar} which actually usually refers to a almost grown lad, not an infant or child.
KJV
Pro 13:24 " he who spares the shebbet hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently"
He who spares - literly, withholds
The word for "discipline" here again is muwcar {moo-sawr'}
see note above.
There is no doubt in my mind that corporal punishment (and even the death penalty) WAS used as punishment in biblical times for things such as adultery, stealing, etc.
The question is "Is this the proper way to raise wise, gentle and honorable children?"
I use the following passages and thoughts as my personal guide in this manner
What did Jesus do when others wanted to resort to the biblically prescribed (physical) punishment (death by stoning) for a woman caught in adultery?
He instructed, showed mercy and showed forgiveness.
What was Jesus' highest law?
"Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. "
(Except if they are children?)
"... and what is required of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk
humbly with thy God."
What does the new testament say about how to treat children???
Hebrews 12:6-7: "...the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?"
"..disciplined by" from the greek paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Which can also be translated either as instruct, chastise with words or in other ways...
Eph 6:4 "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. "
Col 3:21 "Fathers, provoke not your children [to anger], lest they be discouraged. "
1 Th 2:7 "But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children"
Jam 3:17 "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. "
2Ti 2:24 "And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men]
...(Except my own children???)..., apt to teach, patient,
Therefore before I strike my child I ask:
Am I being merciful, gentle and instructive as my child screams in pain from my spanking?
My child doesn't "scream in pain" when I spank her, it is a disciplinary spanking and if she sheds tears, it is not from pain, I know this because she usually will say "you hurt my feeling" and I reply with you shouldn't have done (whatever it was she done) and we talk about it. Spankings that are brought on from accidents (such as spilling juice), or because you have had a bad day are unreasonable.
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