Oregon assisted suicide law
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Oregon assisted suicide law
A number of years ago Oregon voted twice to have an assisted suicide law. It states that if you are terminally ill, are expected to die w/in 6 months and are mentally sound you should be able to end your life. It is called the death w/ dignity law. It requires 2 physicians to make the determination of terminal, and your mental state. Then they prescribe a lethal dose of medication and then the patient takes it. A federal judge has already ruled that it is legal. It is now being appealed before the Supreme court because to do this you need to prescribe federally controlled drugs. Under federal law this is an illegal use of the drug.
So does the soverentry of the state win out or the federal law win out? Not to mention the moral implications. What do you all think?
Wow, this will certainly be one of those HOT BUTTON issues, so as a Moderator, I'm going to first ask that everyone really *THINK* their reponses through before posting, and keep the posting guidelines in mind when doing so.
There will be some members who are totally opposed to this and some who are probably in favor of it. Please, if you are opposed due to moral or religious reasons, don't take this thread personally. Everyone is certainly welcome to post their opinions/thoughts, etc. I'm just hoping we can all debate/discuss this in a mature, non-judgemental manner, as we have in the past. I, and I am sure our other members, respect everyone's opinions, whether or not they agree with me or anyone else, and I'm sure there will be many opinions given here. As long as this thread is debated respectfully, with no flaming or judgements on other members, there should be no problems.
Now............that being said, my sister spoke a lot about this when she was at my home 2 weeks ago when my Mom passed away. My sister told me she wanted to move to Oregon for this reason, simply because she doesn't want to end up with a terminal, debilitating illness that will render her helpless and incapacitated.
I haven't really thought about this much at all, so I'm not certain how I feel about it and definitely don't know where I stand on it, and the issue of state vs federal law.
However, I do feel that in most of the country, there are probably a number of people who obtain these types of drugs illegally to do just that - assist their suicide. And don't forget Dr. Kevorkian - we all know that he was/is *the suicide doctor*.
Let's see what other members have to say on this topic!
Karen, things have been tense on the boards all around lately, so I can see where this one could get hot. We'll try and play nice.
Personally, I think a person should be allowed to die with dignity. I would rather them make the choice with their family, and be given a cocktail by their doctor than use another method of suicide. We insist on people being left to suffer out their last days, in pain and anguish, without control over anything in their lives. This law is, to me, comparable to a DNR. If I code, and have no chance of living a meaningful life without life support, I do not want to be resuscitated. I can make that choice, but if I have a painful terminal illness, I'm forced to suffer in pain until I succumb? My family will have to sit by my side, and if they aren't there when I die, (because they finally HAD to go home to sleep or whatever) they beat themselves up forever? Nope, I'd much rather be able to say "I've had enough."
I think it is wrong, not only because I do not believe in suicide (but we won't go there) I have heard too many times of people being told by a doctor that they only had 6 months to live and end up living way beyond that. I don't understand why someone would want to kill theirself and not see the sunrise one more day, or hear the birds one more time, or see their family/friends just a little bit longer. Life is too precious and we should all be thankful for the days we have and not cut them short. JMO. Talk about beating yourself up for not being by their side when they die, I don't think I could handle myself if my mom or anyone I knew willingly took their life because they were going to die anyway. It is not dignity..it is defeat. I just do not see how it would be dignity. I think it is really pitiful that they would even have this available. 
Candis, I can truly understand your feeling it is *defeat*.
At this point, with my Mom's death so fresh, this is the way I am seeing it. My Mom had a terminal illness, inoperable lung cancer with multiple tumors in both lungs. In the last 3 years she went through a full course of lung radiation, and two full courses of chemotherapy. The last course of chemotherapy nearly did her in all by itself.
Sometime in the end of 2004 her cancer spread to her brain, and apparently her bone marrow. Within weeks she became Stage IV - which is end stage, terminal.
The brain tumor gave her double vision, dizziness, nausea, uncontrollable jerking in her left arm, and numbness and weakness in her left leg. She then developed difficulty in swallowing and would choke on even the smallest amounts. She couldn't walk and couldn't eat. She couldn't even sit up by herself. She began having a lot of pain due to the bone involvement.
She tried a course of brain radiation, there was no way it would cure the brain cancer, it was strictly *palliative*, meaning they were *hoping* it would reduce the symptoms the brain tumor was causing. It didn't, and the radiation just made her sicker.
So what she ended up with was this: She was terminal, she couldn't nourish herself, she was in pain, she had to be diapered because she was too weak to even be lifted onto the potty chair, she had difficulty breathing, and all these things were worsening daily.
Would I have supported her taking a lethal dose of medication if that were her choice, to end her suffering? I honestly don't know. She had a DNR and a living will. But Crystal said it well: If I code, and have no chance of living a meaningful life without life support, I do not want to be resuscitated. I can make that choice, but if I have a painful terminal illness, I'm forced to suffer in pain until I succumb? My family will have to sit by my side, and if they aren't there when I die, (because they finally HAD to go home to sleep or whatever) they beat themselves up forever? Nope, I'd much rather be able to say "I've had enough." That is exactly where my family was 2 weeks ago. There was no chance for any type of recovery or improvement. My Mom was suffering. We, her family, were suffering. We were too afraid to leave the hospital, and later the Hospice to go eat or go home and sleep or shower, because we wanted to be there with her, and for her.
I don't believe in suicide either, but I think, if my Mom had had that choice to make, and had chosen that route, I would have had to respect her decision, knowing what I knew about her condition and her wishes. In her case, there was no question about defeat - she had lost her battle already. All we (she and our family) truly had to look forward to those last few days were watching her die a slow, painful death. I truly believe she had fought as hard and as long as she could, and she couldn't fight anymore, and that she gave herself up to go to another place.
But that's just me. Religion and morals are not entering into my thoughts on this at all, they are just based on my very recent experience. I might feel differently about this in a few weeks or a few months, because I'm still very raw from losing my Mom.
Since I threw this hot potato I feel I should express my feelings and observations as a 4th generation Oregonian. I did vote for the law when I was younger. The death of my father of cancer when I was 10 was very much in my mind. In the last months of his life he suffered quite alot, the doctors would not prescribe higher doses of narcotics to ease his pain because if by some miracle he pulled through he would be have been an addict. To this day I know I would have preferred to have the final memories not be what they were, my big 6'3" daddy totally incapacitated by pain. On my bad days I am still angry that for me personally that his doctors could have provided a more peaceful and pain free death for him that would have been more peaceful for us. Also I wonder if he had had his pain controlled maybe he might have had the strength to pull through. I know that the cancer that killed my father is now 90% survivable, my dad is part of the reason for that because he was a study patient for the Oregon Health Sciences university. I think he would have been proud to help.
That said, I voted for the law for this reason. Doctors are supposed to try to cure patients, they are to try to keep them going. If I were a physician I would never want to be put into the position that one of my patients would ask me to help them terminate their life. I would make sure that pain meds were made available for as much and as long as needed. I would provide whatever care necessary to make their exiting this world as comfortable as possible so that the final decision of suicide would never have to be made. Also the unnecessary cruelty of endless chemo, surgery and hospitalizations would be looked at as an unfair burden to the patient and the families. I believe that the suicide law has had this affect on Oregon doctors. Only 170 people have chosen to use this option since the laws inception in 97 (I think). I dont think my dad would have taken this option, he wanted to live so much, he knew that the little time left was so precious to his survivors. I dont think that I would take this option either for the same reason. But I am not him and I dont know how I would be if I was stricken by some horrible unending illness.
Two issue.
Yes, I believe that state's rights are a priority over the federal government. Let each state decide.
2nd. Right to die?
I believe we all have the right to die with dignity. This bill does not mean that a doc will terminate someone's life without their consent. I do not think this is any different than a DNR. If I was terminal, in terrible pain, my family having to watch me suffer and therefore me causing them to suffer AND I was going to die anyway, I would like to leave with a little dignity.
I have lost two mothers to cancer in the past 7 years. I can see both sides. With my sm, we knew when she was diagnosed in may of 2003 that she was terminal, we didn't know how long that meant. We did treatment, radiation left her in a wheelchair, left her with seizures; however, she could still talk and interact with us, she played iwth the kids, she saw our new house, she gave decorating tips, etc. She knew she was dying, but she lived almost every day of her life. It definetly makes a difference when you have someone to go through it with you. My dad nursed my mom, then remarried, so this was his second wife to lose, pretty close together. So he knew what to expect, he knew how to make life count. She too was diapered, threw up almost everytime she ate. But she loved going places and eating out. So he continued to take her to restraunts, her last meal out was 1 week before she died. She didn't look good, but it was all about her. Also through our faith I guess we knew that if God's will was for her to be healed it could happen at any minute, so to give up with suicide, even hours before death, seems like giving up on faith. For Beth and for my mom I think they had some discomfort, but never any pain, we medicated that away. Beth was alert up until hours before she died, she spoke to people, she cried, she smiled, I last saw her 2 days before she died. I knew I was saying goodbye, she was joking with me, she was talking about the kids. Her doc said there is nothing else we can do. With my mom, she had a few days of unconsciousness, she moaned, she reacted to our touch, but she was not in pain. We ultimately were given a choice to withhold meds and it was a real struggle for me. I think everyone's view of quality of life is different and it would be way too hard to put an effect law on the books that couldn't be taken advantage of.
I want to add this. On more than one occasion Nate transported a patient from the hospital, or hospice, to their home to die. These patients sat in the back of the ambulance and talked about the fear they felt at not knowing when it was coming, though it would be within the next 48 hours. One pt was crying, telling Nate he didn't want to die like this, he didn't want his wife to see him like this, it had been so drawn out, painful, and horrific to suffer through. He literally only had a few hours left, and a good part of those were with a stranger in an ambulance, because he wanted to die at home. I'd give anything to not have to spend my last days like that, to be able to enjoy time with my family, say goodbye, and be surrounded with love when I go. We give our pets that dignity, but force our family to suffer in pain.
My Mom's last days in Hospice were spent lying in bed, no longer speaking, moaning in pain whenever she was touched or rolled over. She could hear and understand and could nod *yes* or *no*. She no longer could even squeeze a hand, much less lift her hands off the bed.
Hospice is there to make the last days/weeks/months (in some cases) as comfortable and peaceful as possible. She was heavily medicated for the pain, but still suffered.
She SO did not want to end up helpless, immobile, unable to do anything for herself, unable to even swallow water.
The biggest problem we had when she was in the hospital was that her doctors were not allowing her any dignity at all. They wouldn't talk to her about her condition, they were not truthful, they kept encouraging treatments which would not help in the short or long term, they would not be honest with her about her disease progression and her time left.
It took me 2 weeks of daily phone calls and sitting around waiting for hours at the hospital to get a doctor to be honest with her and us. Mom was tired of suffering, tired of fighting, she knew in her gut the battle was over, but the medical profession kept practicing and practicing, as they are trained to do.
Mom specifically told us 3 years ago when she was diagnosed not to let her be kept alive by machines and tubes to breathe for her or feed her. She was very definite about that, hence the Living Will. When she made the decision to stop radiation and go into Hospice, she knew she was going there to die. It broke my heart. I had to sign the DNR for her.
The morning she died, the nurse was attempting to give her a breathing treatment *to make her feel better*. Somewhere from the depths of her she managed to shake her head back and forth, and this animal sound of *noooooooooo* came from her. She opened her eyes and looked at me with a look I will never forget - her eyes were full of pain and anger and betrayal - I realized that she thought they were trying to resuscitate her. I told the nurse to stop, she didn't want it, and asked her to move away from the bed.
When she did Mom looked at me once more and closed her eyes. 30 minutes later she was gone. I have a hunch, in her condition, if she had had the option of checking out of this life a few days before that with a little dignitiy, she may have chosen to do so.
I guess I'm lucky that I'll never know that, because I have no idea how I would have reacted.
My sisters are both totally for this law, though neither lives in Oregon. I'm against so many governmental controls, so I guess I'd have to say this should be left at the State level. I'm not sure if I could ever go through with something like that, but after watching my Mom the last few weeks, if it were to be me, I just might.
I think there is some issue of someone being temporarily depressed and opting for assisted suicide...
I guess they could do an evaluation for that... I am not really sure.
I would hate for their to be abuses in this. Seems like the nursing homes want the residents to sit quietly in the corner and die quietly.
You know... hurry up and die...
They would probably pressure the medicaid patient to do this.... So they didn't have to keep them...
Does seem like it should be allowed but I am not sure how.
"I think there is some issue of someone being temporarily depressed and opting for assisted suicide..."
That would indeed present problems, and for that reason alone, I could probably be convinced to be against this.
But even with psychological evaluations, how do you *really* know???
I think it's important to remember the key issue of the law.
*** It states that if you are terminally ill, are expected to die w/in 6 months and are mentally sound you should be able to end your life. It is called the death w/ dignity law. It requires 2 physicians to make the determination of terminal, and your mental state.***
A family member, nursing home, doctor ect are not the ones making the initial decision. It is the person who is ill. Then it is validated by two doctors. This isn't a situation where outsiders are being 'angels of death' and making the decision for the person who is terminal.
I have mixed feelings, but as a registered nurse and having seen people 1st hand dealing with the pain and suffering of a terminal illness, I feel it is up to the patient if they want to do an assisted "suicide". I have seen the pain, I have personally been asked to "open" up a patient's PCA pump that gives them their narcotics (morphine usually) and just allow them to "pass on in peace". Since none of us has dealt with it being "us" with the illness, we cannot really know. It is for no one to judge another's wishes. I am religious and feel God has a time for all things, but at the same time He also has given us tools to help ourselves in certain cases. I just do not see it as suicide...to me, it is a dignified way of ending the envevitable..the patient is going to pass on either way, and I do not feel God will condemn a person for choosing this route.
I lived in Oregon during the time of these elections both times I voted against it. To me it is morally wrong. I think the lord will take you in due time. There is a reason for everything and I truly believe in that. My grandma was severly burnt about 8 years ago. My Grandpa told him that she didn't want to kept alive with machines. During the time she was in the hospital my family grew together to where they were always apart and never kept in touch. My Uncle was a drug adict and another was an alcholic and I think seeing what the family was going through made them think maybe what they were doing was not worth it they where slowly killing themself and here there Mom lied in a bed fighting to live. I know this is off the subject but if she decided to do the assisted suicide my family would not be where we are today. a strong healthy family. So I belive things are done in due time. I know its off the subject but I don't agree with it but I have never been put in that position to choose. the biblical way around it is that if comite suicide you will not get into heaven.I personely don't because I want to be with my family.
Different discussion momof four, but you comment that the Biblical way is if you commit suicid you will not get into heaven, I would love a scriptural reference on that.
Yeah, I don't believe it says anywhere in the Bible that you don't go to Heaven when you commit suicide. But... that may be for a whole new discussion.
Some believe that the commandment, "thou shalt not murder" applies also to suicide.
that is a different discussion... hence my post says "we won't go there".
That may be a little too touchy situation for some people. JMO
I wasn't starting the discussion, just answering the question of where you might find it mentioned in the bible.
I am in favor of assisted suicide.
I know you weren't, Jann, I was only agreeing with Kaye that it is a different discussion.
I think it's just awful. It's messing with nature.
And even though it's a whole different discussion, I do think that the suicide is murder. And, I do think that it would be breaking the commandment of "though shalt not murder".
Choosing to take a drug that will kill you is murdering yourself.
Kaye it is the same discussion if my Grandma had the choice to do the assisted suicide my family would have not been brought together like it is and has been since her death. I know my Grandma would have never did it because of her religious belief. as for the suicide its is the commandment though shall not murder. A pastor told me that if you comite suicide you have no way to ask the lord for forgiveness. you cant ask forgiveness and then kill yourself. But thats my belief and I will continue to believe it but thats the whole point about the debating board will are all different in our opions I may not believe in yours or yours mine but I do believe this has alot to with this discussion
Amy, very well said. I watched my aunt die a very painful death from cancer. She suffered terribly, I wouldn't wish that fate on anyone.
Someone mentioned that we are messing with nature, but aren't all the drugs that help medicate for pain and help people get better messing with nature? Where do we draw the line and how do you make that decision for another person?
If you believe that it is suicide and that it is not for you, then I wouldn't judge you. However, I should be able to have my own beliefs regarding my own illness and options for treatment and death. We should be free to make our own decisions and yes suffer the consquences if there are any, but if we are of sound mind, it is not for others to decide for us.
If you believe that it is suicide and that it is not for you, then I wouldn't judge you. However, I should be able to have my own beliefs regarding my own illness and options for treatment and death. We should be free to make our own decisions and yes suffer the consquences if there are any, but if we are of sound mind, it is not for others to decide for us
well said heaventree! no one is forcing anyone to commit suicide. this law simply allows a person to make the decision for THEMSELF!!!!
So that we know what we are talking about, here is a link to the text of the law itself:
http://www.ohd.hr.state.or.us/chs/pas/ors.cfm
I have read the law in its entirety and it seems to me to be very carefully crafted, with multiple safeguards to ensure that the person making the request is making it of his/her own free will, that it is witnessed by at least one totally disinterested person, that no coercion is involved, that there is a mandated time period between a first request and second request, that there is plenty of opportunity for mind-changing, that several kinds of documentation are required, that there are very severe penalties for anyone attempting to coerce or forge a request, and the only means allowed is the voluntary taking of oral medication by the individual - no shots or other means.
I agree with heaventree. The choice should be mine, and only with the kinds of careful safeguards written into the Oregon law. Given the small number of people who have made this choice in Oregon, it appears that the safeguards in the law are working.
We euthanise animals that are terminal so they don't suffer. Why should humans not have that same right? If you have moral or religious objections to it, then by all means, chose not to opt for assisted suicide. Don't legislate for others who do not have the same objections.
I think the law is a good thing. I think it gives people with no hope a way to find peace a little sooner.
Ame
I saw this article today on CNN.com
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/04/assisted.suicide.survivor.ap/index.html
Personally, I believe that we should have the right to die with dignity. Just because it is available doesn't mean that we have to use it. To argue that we are manipulating nature by allowing the person to committ suicide seems contradictory because we are also keep so many people alive by extreme measures. Judging by the article, it seems that if it really isn't your time to go...fate/divine intervention/God steps in and keeps the plan in order.
Thanks for the link, Ginny. I am printing it out right now.
I'm not sure how I feel.
I lost my dad to emphazema a year ago Feb.13th.
When he was hospitalized 11 days before he died he was so weak that he could'nt sit up with out assitance, and I had to spoon feed him because the act of lifting a spoon would tire him out and he could'nt catch his breath.
The first week or so he wanted all that could be done to help him. Breathing treatments, antibiotics, iv's, and a breathing machine called a bi-pap.
The last 3-4 days he begged for God to call him home. He would look me right in the eye and want to know why God had'nt called him yet?
The bi pap machine was causing bruising and open sores on his nose, that caused him extreme pain. We all finally made the decision to stop using that. He lost concusness(sp) that day. A nurse was about to give him a breathing treatment and I told her not to , I told her to please remove his iv's and to stop all antibiotics and everything. We even had the oxygen removed from his nose. That is what HE wanted. I wanted to keep him here FOREVER, but that was selfishness on my part. He passed later that day, and he never regained awareness.
If someone would have offered him a drug to end his life he probebly would have wanted it. I really don't think I see a difference between taking something to end your life, and stopping something to end your life, like we did for him.
If you've never had a loved one look you directly in the eye and beg and plead, and pray for death then you really can't say what you'd do.
Mara I have watched two mothers die, what I can say is that my experince showed that when you are that near death you are not sane. What you want from one moment to the next can change when are are without pain. Yes I had a mother who begged us to just let her die, she had surgery and woke up from it, was fine for a week, doesn't recall her conversation and when asked about her wishes when not in pain she said, "don't give up on me, use every measure possible". So yes it is hard hearing that I still knew what her real wishes were. Every person is different, but ultimately I think this is shakey ground.
Kaye, I know you meant no ill feelings in your post. When you say that you think when you are that close to death you are not sane hurt my feelings. That is your experience, I understand. That is not mine. My dad was very sane during these conversations about his dying. He was never crying or mad. He was completely aware. This behavior lasted days not hours or minutes before passing. He would look me right in the eye and ask in a pleading voice, why has'nt God called me home? I would just rub his arm and say be patient. He apologized for leaving us and for not seeing my children grow. He knew every word he was speaking. He was ready to die, he wanted to go. He had spent the last 3 years of his life confined to his home. He could'nt even hold my then 6 month old baby because it would make him out of breath, when I say out of breath I mean that literally, he would have to concentrate on every breath.
To say that he asked to die because he was not sane is terrible, I feel.
He told us before he was ever hospitalized that he wanted no "heroic" measures taken.
For me to think that some of the last conversations that I had with my daddy, with the man that I cherished and would have done anything for were spoken..in your opinion..while he was not sane, makes me upset.
He was the most sane person I ever knew even while lying on his death bed.
I really hope that when I'm dying that people take what I have to say for the truth, I hope that they don't feel that I'm not sane enough to make my own decisions.
I'm very sorry. It's very late. I don't want any hard feelings. This just really hit a cord with me. I miss and love my dad so so much. I use to see or talk to him everyday, and I miss that.
I know it's been a year since he left me, but I'm still very raw with all subjects relating to him.
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I think I had lots of meaningful conversations with my mothers also, but there are definitly things that I do not feel like were her true self. And lots of things that were said that she might of held back if she wasn't dying.
Let me give you a little background on me. My mohter was diagnosed with and almost died from MS when I was in 6th grade. I cathed her daily and was her nurse for over a year. We did some experimental treatments and she had an amazing recovery. She was still wheelchair bound, but was still able to care for herself. My dad was unable to deal with this, so although he stayed in the marriage he was mostly useless and mom and the house became my responsibilty at a grand age of 12-13. Fast forward to my third pregancy at 26, my mom gets ill over 4th of july, she is diagnosed with leukemia and dies 1 month later, she never left the hospital, she never met my youngest child, she never really knew who I became. My dad however made an amazing transformation, he remarried 2 years later. His wife was a wonderful lady, she adored her grandkids, never having children of her own she became my mother. We moved 16 hours away with in months of their marriage. Finally after 4 years we were able to come home, she was thrilled, we were thrilled. On my birthday may 25 we moved into our new home, full of grand plans and ideas, full of excitement. On may 28th she had a routine mri done for headaches, they discovered metazised breast cancer in her brain, we weren't given a prognosis, but we knew what it meant. So instead of getting the grandmother my kids wanted we got a very sick lady who slowly became my very ill mother. It was terribly sad and difficult. I changed diapers once again, held her head when she threw up, and tried to explain to my kids that she didn't mean to forget them, she didn't want to get sick. She died a long 7 months later. In that same time period I also lost my grandfather to cancer and my husband lost his grandmother. We had 3 deaths in a 9 week period at the end of 2003.
So yes I understand it is raw, a year is not nearly long enough for the pain to go away, it has been 7 years since i lost my mom, it still hurts. I did have some great wonderful moments with my mothers and grandfather, but when push comes to shove I know that there were times they just weren't in their right mind. I don't know what it is like, but I know I saw the fear in all of their eyes. They were all Christians, they all knew where they were going. And they all had a piece about it most of the time. I guess what I am trying to say is I am no expert on death (although I feel like I know way too much), but I have seen my share and that is my opinion. I just can't help but think that when you know this is it, things change mentally. At the least your perspective is different. Both of my mothers tried to give closure to me and my kids, my mom did so 2 weeks before she diagnosed. Beth right after. She bought a special CD of the song "i hope you'll dance" and wrote the most touching note to my daughter, I can't read it without losing it. But within weeks of dying she didn't recognize my daughter, but she did me, she knew me, knew I had kids, but when she saw them she didn't know them, she saw them anywhere from 3 -7 days a week. So there is some comfort in my knowing that she wasn't all there, because if so then is the truth is she didn't care at all about my kids? No, cancer in particuallar is a horrible and does awful things. Each case is different, but in 3 of 3 for me I can see the moments of insanity in each of them. There were also really lucid times, there were also times that I think were beyond my mind to understand. (my mothers last words were not from this side of earth, she spoke of and too her twins that she miscarried before i was born).
Anyway, sorry I hurt your feelings, obviously it was not intentional, but I still stand by my original post because that has been my experience.
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