Do the ends justify the means?
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Do the ends justify the means?
In other words is it okay to do something unethical, illegal, and/or immoral all for a "good" outcome? Of course, we can all argue about what ethics and morality are, but legalities are pretty black and white. I personally have a problem with stem-cell research because of where many of the stem-cells come from...aborted babies. If we were relying solely on stem cells from umbilical cord blood or adults under voluntary consent then I would have no problem. I know that stem cell research promises us great gains in the quest for conquering some horrible, debilitating, and lethal diseases, but that is not worth using aborted babies as the means to that ends, IMHO.
Similarly, does cheating the government work the same way? I have dealt with this recently with a co-worker and the issue has also arisen on this board. Is it okay to work for non-taxed/non-reported money while receiving an unemployment check? Again, morally and ethically this can be debated, but legally it is considered fraud in most states (although the definition of unemployment fraud does vary somewhat from state to state). In one online government document I found it stated that over $2 billion were overpaid in unemployment benefits in 2002. Over $300 million of that was directly attributed to fraud. Imagine what our school systems could do with that government money! People think that getting a little something back from the big, bad government is okay and how could that little bit that they are receiving really make that big of a difference, but that little bit all adds up.
Is it okay to cheat on a test to get good grades so I can get a scholarship and ease the burden of my parents trying to afford college for me?
Is it okay for me to promote a co-worker's original ideas as my own to get a promotion since my family really needs the money?
Personally, I don't think the ends---even very good and noble ends--always justify the means to arrive there.
OK, Pam, you've made me think really hard about this and, unfortunately, I came to some conclusions that I don't really like. My first instinct was to say "Of course, I wouldn't do these things". I think that I am a moral person, who was raised to know right and wrong and not abuse the system that was set up to help us. I don't think I always do this though. And I can't figure out what the deciding factor is, as to why I would make the decisions I would. I don't think that I would rationalize it by saying that the government isn't going to miss the little bit that I am taking from it. My thought process runs more along the line of "My family needs this and I don't know how else to get it" or "I'm so tired of figuring out how to make ends meet and I've just given up." Of course, I know that this isn't acceptable but I think I decide that my family is a real-life situation of keeping a roof over our heads or food in our stomachs and it isn't making that kind of impact on _____(whatever agency the money is coming from). Incidentally, do you really think that our education would get that money of people weren't defrauding the government? I don't!
Is it okay to cheat on a test? No. Did I do exactly that in high school? I'm sorry to say I did.
Would I steal a co-worker's ideas for my own promotion? No, I really don't think I would. My conscience wouldn't allow it. I may not know my co-worker's situation and he/she may need it as badly as I do. But, that really didn't factor into my decision. I wouldn't do it simply because it isn't honest.
Theoretically, I don't believe that the ends justify the means but, if push came to shove, in my real life, I don't know what rules I would or wouldn't break.
JMHO, of course
I think when you are in the midst of a situation it is just really hard to see the black and white of it all. Although my beliefs mirror yours in many ways, I wonder how I would really feel if, my daughter has an incurable cancer but they can save her life IF we use the remains of an already aborted fetus. I am against abortions, but if they happened, why would we throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Well I know why, if you allow that, then people do things because that line got fuzzy, instead of doing the right thing. Yes I think there are people out there who would intentional get pregant and abort all in the name of science and this is why that just can't happen. I happen to be honest to a fault, I do report that 25 dollars my hubby makes mowing grass, I do not over report what I give to the church, if I don't have a reciept I don't report, period. I would like to think that I would do the right thing no matter what, but i guess the difference is, maybe I didn't see it. For example, taking candy into a movie, this is wrong, it is posted not to do it, and if you do you break a rule. Is it cheaper to bring my own? yes, is this probably about making money? yes, but is it is a rule YES. So I don't do it. But okay my child has a special need, can't have corn syrup, but there are special juices that he can drink, is it okay to bring that in? I don't know that I would think that it isn't. Now knowing me personally, I have asked management if it was okay...LOL. We have a place that sells a huge thing of all you can eat popcorn. Well I buy one and share it with the kids, they advertise it this way (we never can eat more than one..lol). Well instead of pouring popcorn on napkins on their laps i thought you know what I can take in small paper bags, less mess. But is this cheating...i dont' know, so I went and asked if that was okay (it was btw). Anyway, so I want to answer no I don't think the ends should justify the means, but I guess that we live in a world that really clouds our vision to see right and wrong way too much.
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I'm going to agree with Cori. Doing what I need to do to support my family is 1st in my book. I had a CPS caseworker helping me during my divorce. I had been very caught up in what kind of job the judge would find acceptable, since she had put us down for working night jobs to make ends meet. I was having a hard time finding daytime employment with all of the drama and no reliable sitter. Finally the CPS lady said "Screw what the judge thinks, because if I had to stand on a street corner to make money for my children to eat I would do it." Granted that is an extreme instance, but I would, too. If it meant my kids wouldn't starve I would. My point, I would do anything I could to help my babies. So many people take advantage of all the government programs, sit on their butts and use drugs, have litters of children they don't take care of. People who need and DESERVE help often can't get it without bending the rules. I'm lucky to have full time employment, and make enough to get by. Some aren't so lucky. I'm probably in the minority with my views, but what else can people who are trying their best do?
Ditto Tink.
Pamt...have you ever received unemployment? Have you ever been unemployed with no income and hungry mouths to feed? I think until you've walked a mile in those shoes, you don't really know what you would do.
I read the post on the general discussion board that started this debate.
I also read a post of yours from several days back where you said that you had bartered with a friend. She wanted to pay you for your speech services, but you decided to trade for some interior decorating or something similar. Well, if you were to accept a couple of small payments from your friend for your services, would you record them and report them on your taxes?
BTW Crystal....you aren't the minority  I agree with you as well. I would do whatever needed to be done to feed my DK's.
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OK since I started this discussion on the other board and didn't mean to i will post. I was off work on maternity leave having my baby and knew I was taking 4 extra weeks off work before going back that would not be paid well before my return I was laid off so another 4 weeks with no income other than Rich's under $10 hr salary not much money for 4 people with a house and car payment but I made it work. I have been looking for work for over 5 months with no luck many interviews and over 300 resumes sent out later still no job. I had the chance to make money under the table while collecting unemployment so I did it. My kids need cloths and food I had to borrow money in there to pay electric. I shut off the phone and the cable but kept the internet so I could job hunt and send out resumes. We took the air out of the windows and slpt in the bad heat I saved money everywhere I could. I went to FIA to get help but guess what my unemployement was too much money a month for me to get help. They said my power had to be shut off before they could help with that. But the lady that was in there at the same time as me had 5 kids and another on the way she said we have money but we can work the system so why not. And she gets everything she needs but me who needs it and feels bad "working the system" can get nothing. I cannot even get help with food for my family so yes ther are some nights when Timmy and the baby eats and Richard and I do not or we have enough to say we ate and that is it.
Sorry but for all of that I have to work under the table to make ends meet. I have 2 checks left from UE and then what I cannot get an extension even though I have been doing everything I can to get a job. I have to make sure my family can survive. My kids need food & winter cloths and christmas is coming and my kids must have a christmas. Everyone in my family knows they will be getting nothing from my family this yr unless things change 100% but my kids have to have a christmas. I as Cystal said will do whatever I have to to make sure my family can survive. And that is what we are doing barely right now is surviving. Rich is riding with someone so we have his car parked and dropped the insurance on it so we have 1 less bill. I have a cell phone with prepay minutes so I can have a contact # for jobs.
If someone here thinks that is wrong then so be it but my family is most important to me and I will make sure they are all OK.
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Going to stick to my original post. I have been in grave financial positions with my children, and before the kids I had many rough times, nights where I didn't know where I was going to sleep. I'd take the risk of being caught for my babies. I consider myself lucky to not have to. Since we're having this debate, how about people who don't pay loans on things they have purchased? Essentially, this is stealing also. It's the same idea, would you forsake all else to pay a creditor? Who cares if your babies eat as long as the car note is paid?
Thanks Tonya, for stepping up and posting Now I can say it how I wanted to.
In Tonya's situation, I think she has no other choice. She is actively looking for work. She's doing the best she can for her family.
A lot of businesses have their finances set up where they can pay so much "under the table" without it being tracked. Our neighbor owns a company and can pay out $500 per year under the table. So, he has hired DH on weekends to work for him for a few hours here and there. DH doesn't have to be on the payroll, because it comes out of that $500.
I think that it is easy to judge someone when you are not in their shoes.
There are a lot of things that I may not agree with, but I honestly can not say that at a certain point I have not taken advantage of a situation. How does it go...those that live in glass houses should not cast the first stone.
Tonya I am sorry you are having a hard time. The job market & welfare system is one of the reasons my parents moved us from MI 20 years ago.
I wasn't going to post on this subject because there are many different views and many different ways to look at everything everyone has posted...Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.I am just going to add this personal quote that has been in my profile forever.....
Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had... -F.S. Fitzgerald-
Ditto, Ditto, Ditto.....judge not lest ye be judged.
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Have you ever been under charged for an item? Or gotten back to much change. Did you just walk away & not say anything. If you didn't notice until you got home did you go back & fix it? If not then technically you have stolen something, even if it is just a penny.
I do not think that people in general wake up in the morning & decide to cheat as many people as they can. I do think that you try your best to do what is right for your family. I also think that people have cheating on taxes for years, its not just our generation.
This debate makes me think of a song I like because of it's message. The language is not good, so I edited it for this Board but you can search it, if you want to, as I said it is a secular song and the language is not great but the point and the message of the song meant something to me when I heard it:
"What It's Like" by Everlast
We've all seen the man at the liquor store beggin' for your change,
The hair on his face is dirty, dread locked and full of mange,
He asks a man for what he could spare with shame in his eyes,
"Get a job you slob" is all he replies.
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes,
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues....
Then you really might know what it's like.....
Then you really might know what it's like....
Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love,
He said, "Don't worry about a thing baby doll, I'm the man you've been dreaming of...
But three months later he won't date her or return her calls,
And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the door,
They call her a killer, they call her a sinner and they call her a whore.
And God forbid they should ever have to walk a mile in her shoes,
'Cause then they might know what it's like to have to choose."
Then you really might know what it's like...
Then you really might know what it's like....
I've seen a rich man beg
I've seen a good man steal
I've seen a tough man cry
I've seen a loser win
I've seen a sad man grin
I've heard an honest man lie.
You know where it ends
it usually depends
on where you start....
I knew a kid named Max
who used to get fat stacks
our on the corner sellin' drugs
Until late one night there was a gun fight
Now Max's wife and kids are caught in the pain.
And that's what happens, they say, when you have to play the game..
God forbid you ever have to wake up and hear the news,
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to lose......
Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like
Then you really might know what it's like
AJ
All I'm saying is that none of us ever really knows what we might do if we were in the wrong circumstances or forced into a desperate situation. We have to make that call when it happens. We all hope we'd do the right thing, but we just don't know. "Where it ends usually depends on where it starts."
AJ
I agree with you Audrey - I wouldn't dare say what I would do in any situation in which I have not been. I do not feel right inside judging others when I have not walked in their shoes, when I do not know their story, when I do not know how they feel inside. I've just recently come to this realization, and I feel terrible for judging others in the past. I think someone's intentions are more important than their actions. On a side note, one must always remember that their *are* consequences, and make their decisions VERY wisely. For instance, I would only steal a loaf of bread to feed my child IF AND ONLY IF I had exhausted all other options and my child was literally going to die of starvation without it. I think that these type of dire situations are very rare, but I do acknowledge that they do exist. Thus, I cannot judge in these types of situations...
Very well said Amy!
One of the sad things about this post to me is how judging it has become. We often have debates of hot topics, but we are able to keep them unpersonal. Well this has just been mud slinging at it's best. I don't know what I would do in a dire situation. Would I kill someone to eat them if I was left out in the wilderness with no other hope....who knows. What I do know, is even if I do, it is still legally wrong. I try in every instance to not break the law, or the spirit of the law. Yes I have been undercharged, if I have noticed it I have corrected it. And yes I have returned to a store to do so. Does this make me better than others, NOPE. This is just who I am. Things can be tough, I grew up one of those childhoods, we were poor, had free milk and cheese, didn't eat much variety, certainly no fruits or veggies that we didn't grow ourselves. I ate 2 meals a day at school on the free program. I still do not remember my parents stealing or working the system. I remember filling out forms and forms, asking for assistance, I filled out these forms, my mom was unable to do so. My point is, no one knows what situation we all come from, but on this board we are asked to express our viewpoints. I report all income, period, I just feel like it is the right thing to do. I do not feel like the ends justify the means, mostly out of fear, I think what you give and get in life all balance out in the end. So for me to "cheat" a bit I feel like I will get cheated later, a little thing called karma I suppose.
Thank you AJ and AMY. I was going to post to this yesterday but couldnt, well, i just could post to it nicely. LOL
My dh read this post with me last night. He said he hopes Tonya finds a job very quickly and things get better for her family.  I know she has got to be under alot of stress right now and doesnt need a debate like this going on.
Dh was pretty funny about it-- he was wondering if you ever speed, jay walk, run a yellow light, not come to a complete stop at a stop sign, ***gossip***, use profanity, ***sit idle on a mommy board wasting daylight***! LOL ... His list went on and on. Too funny.
Good luck with your job hunt Tonya!! I really am sorry your having to go thru such a tough time.
I also dont think this has anything to do with abortions, stem cells, cheating on tests, etc... For goodness sakes what would you be posting if Tonya said 'Hi ladies! Starting today I am going to live off welfare as long as I can. I decided I enjoy sitting on the couch watching soap opera's all day' Would that be better? ROFL!!
I also thought I would mention that we got a notice in the mail that we have been OVERCHARGED for our personal property taxes for the last umpteen yrs... And would we please NOT ASK FOR A REFUND because this money has already gone to our schools. LOL Ummmm thats not ethical imo. I was cheated and then asked to overlook it. I think we get ripped off all the time.
Oh and someone posted that would we go back to a store where we were undercharged or overcharged. Dh and I both have done this. I even walked
out with something under my basket I forgot about and it didnt get paid for. I went right back in the store and paid for it.
Just because someone does one thing-- doesnt mean it leads to teaching their children to cheat on tests in school. I personally think that is ridiculous.
Ok I am going to hush now!
Well said Conni
I have wiped all my posts away...
I'm not judging Tonya. I was judging myself. I don't think all of you were reading my posts clearly or reading between the lines.
I'm sorry Tonya if you think I was judging you. No one in the world (unless you walked in my shoes, however, my mom did know) knew what I was made to do at my job I'm embarrassed to this day from it and I hope no one is ever in my position. The sad thing is I thought I needed the money to support my family. The worse thing is the way it makes you feel. I lost my job 3 years ago and still feel the same way, regret.
I hope you read all of what I wrote and understood it before you judge me.
You're talking about different crimes here. If you are caught speeding for the first time, what happens? At worst you get a ticket/fine, and best you get NOTHING! Just a warning! Now, if you commit murder for the first time, what happens? JAIL, if not death row! Why? Because they are DIFFERENT crimes!! They carry different penalties. So to compare speeding to lying on taxes or cheating the government doesn't make much sense. The point is it's wrong to do all these things, both big and little. I think everyone does the little things at some time or another, usually not on purpose. I don't speed on purpose, but it happens and when I notice it I slow down. I TRY to obey to the best of my ability. However, to CONSCIOUSLY do something wrong is just wrong!! Cheating the government may, in the short term, get you something tangible. But in the long term you (and the rest of America, thank you very much!) will end up losing out. When the government gets cheated, it's the American people who are truly getting cheated, make no mistake! My nephew had a baby out of wedlock five years ago. He's still just living with the girl, they have no intention of EVER marrying because then the girl (as the poor, unwed mother)will lose all her welfare benefits. However, she gets all the benefits of living with the person she loves, having him help her raise the child, and she gets all the money he contributes to their household, AND she gets welfare that *I* pay into. Do I like that? Nope. I'm not at all pleased with my nephew and his girlfriend, nor any others who behave in that manner. They, and others like them, are taking total advantage of honest, responsible citizens and that angers me. I know there are others like my nephew and his girlfriend on this board, too. And all of us on this board occasionally speed. But there is a difference.
Well I don't feel anyone is judging me and if you are oh well. I am doing what I ahve to do for my family and if someone doesn't like it oh well. I refuse to let me family suffer if I can help it. I am not sitting on my butt collecting everything I can and milking the system for all it is worth but I am doing what I have to do. I wish like hell i had a FT job that took taxes out and didn't have to deal with UE at all but ight now that is not the case. I will say that once my UE runs out the job I am at is going to put me on payroll and hopefully pay me more but if not I will be looking for a night job too that I can work while Rich is home with the kids sleeping. I have always been a hard worker and what I have I have because I am determined so to all those who have nevr been through problems like mine please don't judge me because you never know what you would do in my shoes!!
((((Tonya))))
It is very easy to disagree with somebody's actions or plan when we are on the outside looking in.
I think we all have our own personal threshhold that we won't cross. Sometimes, we don't know where that boundary is because we've never been to that point. Yet, if we all thought long and hard enough, we all could come up with a situation where we could easily say the ends justified the means. Heck, I would have gotten my mother marijuana when she was dying of cancer if she had just said the word (and I asked her). I would have looked the other way if someone else had done it for her. In the end, her comfort was more important to me than any consequence I would have faced for it.
In other words is it okay to do something unethical, illegal, and/or immoral all for a "good" outcome? In a word: sometimes.
Kate I agree with what you are saying and hopefulyl you are nto camparing me to that because I nd my childrens father are not married and we do live together and have benn together for almost 10 yrs give or take a few oiff yrs but I am not on welfare nor do I get food stamps or help with my household bills or anything like that. Believe it or not my UE they say is too much for me to receive help. But you are right hte lady that was there with me said hey why not have mroe kids then they give me more money for whatever I want. She had a new car in her friends name and a great palce to live that was payd for so why not keep going like she was.
I am doing what I have to for my family bottom line!
Stem Cell.... I think there could be some real outcomes from this and I really wish they would shy away from using aborted babies. I'm undecide here consideringI am pro-life so i'm still leaving my options open and learning about this.
Unemployment Checks.... since when can the government tell me what they think my family can and cannot live off of? I think each family varies and only they know what they need to survive. There are people who abuse unemployment for no reason and dont care to look for another job, and there are people who are looking for a job while earning a few dollars here and there and still on unemployment. In example #2 I would do that, for my family. As a matter of fact I still get WIC for DD even though DHs income nearly doubles WICs guidelines with his 2nd job. I wont get into why but its needed right now. So, if everyone wants to mention Tonyas name, then i'll say Tonya, I think your making a good decision by placing your family before the government.
Cheating on tests? Sure its not right but i've done it plenty in my high school life. It just happens.
Steal a coworkers ideas? I just wonder how you would confront that coworker after stealing their idea. I mean, you've gotta talk to them sometime. I wouldnt do it.
Kaye :-)
MUDSLINGING???!!!
"This has just been mudslinging at it's best..."
ROFL!!!!!
Ladies, I swear, I don't mean this in a rude way, but ya'll couldn't sling mud if it was handed to ya and someone was there to help you aim! I have been on other message boards and ya'll are incredibly, incredibly, mild compared to others!
That like accusing "Aunt Bea" of being a mass murderer or "June Cleaver" of poisoning someone! Okay, we watch too much TV Land around here. What can I say, we have kids! But mudslinging, c'mon....nobody on this board is even allowed to curse! Let's not start making unrealistic accusations over a debate.
And I don't agree with Marg deleting her posts, either. The kitchen table is for debate. These posts really bothered Marg and she is entitled to her opinion.
PamT read a post that bothered her and brought it where she should....here....to be debated.
That's all.
And Tonya wrote that she doesn't feel anyone is judging her.
Really, it is not about Tonya, or me, or Pam or anyone else. Really, the topic is about us as a society and individually as people deciding "what is" and "what it not" socially acceptable/legal behavior.
The Law is black and white. For some, morality is too. For some The Bible is black and white, as well.
I refer you to the story of Rahab the Prostitute:
Joshua 2:4 "But Rahab, the harlot, who had taken the two men and hidden them in her home, LIED, AND SAID, "Yes, the men came to me but I did not know where they had come from....2:6 But she had taken the men up t the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.
Joshua 6:25 And Joshua spared Rahab, the liar and the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho.
James 2:25 In the same way, Rahab the prostitute was considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies.
AND Matthew 1:5 Rahab was the mother of Boaz and was in the line of Christ.
So, the spies went to the house of a PROSTITUTE (law breaking behavior) The Prostitute LIED to the king and swore the spies were not in her home when they were (law breaking behavior) and her law breaking and morally reprehensible actions saved the spy's lives and ultimately, she was counted righteous and was even in the direct line of Christ.
So, did the illegal immoral acts (or means) of a lying prostitute (illegal and immoral acts being lying and prostitution) justify the (ends) of keeping the spies alive and giving victory to Joshua?
Apparently so, since God included her in the line of Christ and James says she was counted righteous for doing it....
Joshua 2 clearly states the spies choose the prostitute's house as a place to stay....what if the spies had said, "No, we can't stay (and possibly sleep at/with) a prostitute's house, that would be wrong!" Would a more reputable woman have turned them in?? What if the spies had come to her home and she had said, "No, I mustn't lie to my king, if he asks where you are, or if you are in my home, I must tell him the truth." And then, the King had killed the spies?
All I'm saying is that Rahab knew her land was about to be overtaken, so she sheltered the spies (and slept with them? we don't know!) and lied to her king to protect them and both of these acts were illegal and immoral by the rules of her land at that time and her life, and her family's lives were saved as a direct result. And she was counted righteous. And God included her in the line of Christ.
She saved her life and the lives of her family by being a lying whore. She did what she had to do....in her case, I would say that, yes, the ends justified the means.
Now, since she was named in The Word of God as righteous would that mean God says that in Rahab's case, the ends justified the means as well?
I think so.
Thank you, I never would have thought of Rahab and looked all of that up if not for this post. It took up an hour of my afternoon and four translations of the Bible and my Concordance to do it and all of you may not read such a long post. But it answers my question.
Based on the story of Rahab, I think that in some cases, God says "Yes, the ends justify the means."
AJ
I believe that in the case of survival, people do whatever is necessary.
Is it ethically right for a person to be going to bed every night hungry because they cannot get help? They apply for help yet are just a hair over the ridiculously low requirements.
Is it fair that they are trying to get employment but constantly hit a brick wall?
If they have the ability to make a few extra dollars (under the table) and this little amount of money may put food on their table do I begrudge them that? NO. I don't think the government should either..especially since they are desperately trying to not live on the system.
I see the gap between the poor and middle class growing and growing. This is a crisis that should be debated. Why is this happening?
Even bartering is something you are supposed to claim on your taxes.
Speaking of taxes..what angers me is it seems like only the smartest people (or those with awesome accountants) get great tax returns. This is not because they make false claims (although I am not saying that some don't) but instead because they are up on the latest (legal) write offs. We have missed many write offs over the years that could have put a lot more money back into our pockets. Now we hire an accountant. This is not reasonable for low income people so once again it helps the rich get richer and the poor remain poor.
I do believe everyone has a fine line they will not cross. I try to be an honest and moral person but know I do some of the very things mentioned.
If I am undercharged by less than a dollar I do not go back to the store. Why? because it costs me that to drive back. When I am overcharged I do not go back either so in my mind they just flush each other out. Granted it is usually the same store that does both to me.
I do *sneak* goodies into the movie theater. I am not so sure it is sneaking as they know I have it but it is against the rules.
I never cheated on a test. For the most part, school was easy for me. In other circumstances who knows if I would have felt the need to do it.
I try very hard not to judge others. I know at times I fall short on that (especially with relatives) but I keep trying. My mom always told me that everyone has a story and it is very likely you do not know it. What may seem so wrong to you may be only a part of the big picture.
So does the end justify the means?
I too have to say yes sometimes it does.
Just my opinion of course.
Yvonne
RAHAB THE PROSTITUTE: Found a footnote that said she may have been an innkeeper, but nothing else suggests this....King James says prostitute....more research indicates the reference to Rahab being an "innkeeper" may be an attempt in later translations to "clean up" the story because Joshua's soldier's were at a "house of ill repute". Anyway, upon further investigation, it looks pretty certain she WAS a prostitute. And she definitely was a liar. And further reference notes that she "made a deal" with the spies for the safety of not only herself but her entire family, which is what we have been saying here.
That most of us WOULD cross the line for our family.
And, God blessed Rahab and her family. So, the I stand by my point, the ends justified the means.
Pamt, where did you go? I hope you haven't been offended.
I agree that everyone has their lines. We were on welfare for two years, when my then husband lost his job - 3 kids. I worked as a janitor at my church and took money under the table, because the cash welfare didn't cover the mortgage (which was ridiculously low) and oil for heat and utilities. I worked as a janitor for the nursery school for my sons' tuition. And while we were on welfare I went to the supermarket and, as usual, cashed a check before shopping to buy my groceries. Usually I cashed a check for $50 but this was a really bad week so the check was only $25 and the cashier gave me $50 - and I gave her $25 back before I even thought about it.
I itemize for income tax and don't take a penny more than I am entitled to - partly because I don't, partly because we were audited once and I don't ever want to go through that again.
When there is a chance for free coupons, sometimes I send one from home and one from work (only one per family is the rule).
When we were burglarized I filed a totally honest claim and had three months of grief from the adjuster, until I finally sent a certified letter to the CEO of the insurance company saying that all my friends had told me to exaggerate my claim because the insurance company would beat me down, and now I was paying the price for honest. The letter worked and the claim was resolved. But now, working for a plaintiff's personal injury law firm, I see how insurance companies do their darndest to not pay out anything no matter how valid the claim, and to pay as little as possible no matter how bad the injury - for the sake of profit. It makes me so angry.
I like to think of myself as an honest, non-violent person - but if anyone in my family were at risk I would lie, cheat, steal, and be violent.
As for Rahab and the end justifying the means - what Rahab was doing that was wrong was being a traitor to the city/government where she lived by sheltering the Israelites and lying - whatever her reasons for doing it, it was treason. I don't think her prostitution had anything to do with it other than to set her "character" for the story.
As for bartering, I believe that the IRS considers bartering a form of income and you are supposed to report the value you received and the value of what you traded to the other person, and both pay taxes on it. Would I? Probably not for a one time or seldom situation. But still, that's the law.
I try really hard not to judge other people until I know the whole story and can be fairly certain of what I would do in a similar situation. Having done exactly what some others here have done or are doing, I can only say I understand and have BTDT.
Stem cell research - most of the debate I read about stem cell research is using the frozen embryos not used by people in fertility treatment programs, not aborted fetuses. I imagine aborted fetuses may be used, but I think the embryos are the "hot issue" in this particular national debate.
Cheating "the system" - that doesn't bother me a whole lot. Cheating on tests does, partly because it affects the grades of all the students in the class (curve grading being what it is) and partly because if you cheat you are partly cheating yourself because you haven't learned what you'll need later.
Stealing a co-worker's ideas and taking credit? Never.
Do the ends justify the means if the end is noble? I guess for me it depends, each time, on the proposed end and the means. And who is deciding if the goal is noble and for what reasons. There are a whole lot of examples I could give, but that is yet another debate.
First of all, no Robin I personally haven't been offended at all. It's just on Tuesdays I work a 9 hour day and then have a 3 hr class, so I visited with my kids and DH and pretty much went straight to bed and have been running all day long today. Secondly, I do regret that specific names were brought into this post. Yes, there was one certain post that prompted me to start this debate, but this was not directed at any one person or situation necessarily---that's also why I listed several other means-ends scenarios which have largely been overlooked in this discussion.
First off, the issue of being "judgmental." In the dictionary to judge (in this context) is defined as "to form an estimate or evaluation of; especially : to form a negative opinion about." Just because I disagree with someone or something doesn't mean that I think less of them or am in some way condemning them. For example, I disagree with people who like country music or rap. Does this mean I think they are lesser people in a derogatory sense? No...it just means I don't like and/or appreciate the same type of music. This doesn't make me right or them right; it's just the way things are. So...I do resent the implication that I was being judgmental in posting this topic. If judgmental means calling something legal or illegal, then yes I was being judgmental, but we can all right judge right/wrong with the law---it's the ethics and morals issues that get blurry.
Have I ever been fired or laid off? No. However, since my income only gets us health insurance and "extras" it wouldn't be devastating to the family if I did. And if my DH were to lose his job I could easily find work and would probably make more than he does if I chose to work full-time. So I haven't been in this situation and likely will not. I also do agree with the old quote from Atticus Finch that you have to walk a mile in someone's shoes to truly know how it would feel to be them. I wholeheartedly understand that desparate times call for desparate measures. After reading up on Jack the Ripper and understanding the poverty that led his victims to become prostitutes (and they were also mothers) I remember talking with my DH and saying that if it came to my kids eating ONLY IF I sold my body on the streets, then so be it. However, fortunately we live in different times now.
The indirect vibe that I have gotten from these posts though is that if I wasn't willing to break the law, then I somehow am less of a mother and don't love my children as much as someone who would. That is simply not true. Actually in my original post I did not state my {opinion} on any issue except stem cell research. You could perhaps infer my opinion on the UE issue due to the additional info I provided, but it was not blatantly stated. I also ended my post with "Personally, I don't think the ends---even very good and noble ends--always justify the means to arrive there." That little word "always" means that I think there are times rules need to be bent or broken.
I can definitively say that I have never cheated on a test or taxes (to my knowledge..unless out of my ignorance), I do return overpaid money, and whenever I have done work "on the side" (therapy and freelance writing) for cash I do report it on my taxes as income and provide receipts. Recently my son had dental work done. Our dental insurance paid most of it, but $45 was out-of-pocket. Our dentist is a friend and he waived the out-of-pocket amount. At work we have a Flex acct. that takes pre-tax amounts out of my paycheck to pay for co-pays and medical reimbursements. Whenever there is an out-of-pocket expense I don't have to report it---I am automatically sent a check from my untaxed flex acct. I didn't think about it at the time, but 2 weeks later I received a check for $45. And yes, I called insurance let them know that I had never paid that $45 so I didn't need to be reimbursed...even though it was "my" money anyway. Point is, I shouldn't have been getting that tax-free money for nothing.
And have I done things wrong? Absolutely! I have never said I was perfect or without fault---nor is anyone else. I screw up and do stupid and hurtful things every day. Yes, I have gossiped, I have had 2 speeding tickets, I have lied, etc. ad nauseum. I have done wrong things on purpose and I have done wrong things by accident just because I didn't pick the "right" thing to do. However, I do admit and acknowledge that these things FOR ME are wrong, I seek forgiveness, and I try to avoid situations that put me in the path of those temptations again. In regard to the song AUdrey posted, while I have never been homeless I spend a week each year hanging out on the streets and eating with the homeless at Beautiful Feet Ministries in Ft. Worth, TX. I have spent hours with homeless addicts who haven't had a bath in weeks and wear everything they own on their back. I have hugged them, listened to them, and sat at the same table and shared a meal---in one case me and 5 homeless men of varying ethnicities and circumstances, at least 2 of them ex-cons. I have prepared meals at that place alongside prostitutes. So while I haven't been there personally I KNOW these people, I have faces and names, and I do understand how they got where they were. Just last month my DH brought a homeless man to eat at our home in Baton Rouge with my children at the table too and we had a wonderful evening together. So yes, :
I've seen a rich man beg
I've seen a good man steal
I've seen a tough man cry
I've seen a loser win
I've seen a sad man grin
I've heard an honest man lie.
Tonya, I owe you an apology. My comment was aimed at anyone who saw themselves in those shoes, and I know with so many people here (way more lurkers than posters) there are those who are cheating like that. I did think, based on a post of yours from a year or so ago that you were intentionally not marrying because it financially benefitted you somehow...something about you getting more from Rich's paycheck via child support--if you were married he'd have more taken out of it or something. I don't recall. But I DON'T know your whole situation, I DON'T know YOU, and I have no right to put a blanket assumption on you or anyone else for that matter. I was angry and I took it out on you and others and I'm very sorry for that. I definitely admire you for all the cutbacks and sacrifices you've made and for putting your kids ahead of yourself. It's what decent mothers do and you are obviously a decent mother. It's great that the place you're working at wants to hire you officially. Can't they do it right now and give you some security and take away your stress?
Kate you are right about what you read a yr or so ago we are not married becuase Rich is so far in debt right now that once we can afford it he is going to file bankruptcy if we were married the child support would stop and all of the creditors that he owes would take his check if they did that we would lose everythign that I have worked for. that is not fair to me so why should i do that to myself. We were apart from 98-2001. I worked hard and bought the house we were in and the house we are in now al on my income and my credit they are mine my credit alone and until his situation is cleared up I and our kids should not have to suffer so in a way we are not married because of the system. But we are not taking the system for a ride so what we are doing is justified in my eyes. Why should I pay for something he did when we were not together? There again do the ends justify the means in my eyes yes. And again if you want to judge me go for it I sleep well at night knowing that my kids are taken care of to the best of our abilities an they have a roof over their heads, warm cloths and food in their bellies. I do the best I can with what I have. I was raised with morals and ethics and a very stong family I believe that I am raising my kids the same way.
Maybe I was confused about this thread. I thought it was meant to start a debate. I didn't realize that you were just pointing out the law.
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