Oddest debate yet...
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Oddest debate yet...
My dh works at a public middle school, grades 6, 7 and 8. He is supposed to work one on one with "troubled youth." However, he has about 10-12 kids and can't be with every kid at every moment they are in all different classes. Anyway, someday he will be a therapist/counselor on his own (going to college) not in the school system.
Anyway, two of the 8th graders he has is "dating" what else do you call it when you're in 8th grade... They are in a science class together that dh is not with them, now mind you these are troubled kids, with 80% of them having troubling backgrounds. They were passing notes and the Science teacher confiscated it. This is the debate. Vice principal was given this note and passed along to the teacher in charge of these kids and dh. This note was quite graphic and shocked dh. He came home and told me about it, the debate is the parents will not be told about this note, the kids only got in trouble for passing the note.
The note was sexual graphic about sexual acts other than penis penetration (I don't know any other way to put it sorry if I offend anyone).
I have a problem with this, these two kids have a disturbing background (especially the girl and apparently she is the aggressive one in this situation). I believe the boy is in foster care. Their parents will not be told of this situation where I think they should be. No, I don't think kids this age should be having sex, and I think they should be sat down and have a good understandable talk about SEX and all that it involves. I'm sorry I can see this situation leading to unprotected sex and you can see where I'm going with this. I could go on and on. As parents would you want to know, or do you think the school is right not passing along the information?
Oh my goodness! The parents should definitely be notified and shown the contents of the notes. WHAT is their reasoning for not doing so?!
The parents should definately be notified.
I agree, the parents definitely should be contacted. How can these troubled kids possibly find the right path if the adults in their lives are not working together??? These are minor children. I find it irresponsible on the part of the school not to notify the parents.
I would want to know. I realize they only got in trouble for passing notes this time, but next time will it be for performing those acts? Then what does the school say, we had no idea they would do such things? Also if it mentioned killing themselves or others, immediately that would be read by parents, authorities etc. Well sex at their age is a crime...inform the parents!
I would urge your husband to check the rules. Was the counselor involved? What are the rules for when parents should be notified?
The school should realize that it is at risk of being sued (and all the teachers who potentially had knowledge) if the girl becomes pregnant (at 8th grade level) from sexual activity with this boy. She is almost certainly under the age of consent, but so also is he.
If it were me, I would be talking to the principal about the risk of the school being sued and that it would be a good CYA tactic for the counselor to call the parents in and share the note(s) with them, and to put this on the record.
Yes, dh knows the rules...
I AM STRESSING THIS I AM NOT YELLING, I WANT TO STRESS THIS TO EVERYONE......
It is not just happening with troubled youths it is happening to a lot of younger children. It may be happening to yours and YOUR SCHOOL WILL NOT INFORM YOU!!!! I CAN NOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH
The parents WILL NOT BE INFORMED. The parents would only be informed if the note involved killing, suicide, or drugs. If they were caught in the act of sex or stealing they would be contacted. There are a lot of loopholes in the public school system.
I wanted to see your responses..
Ginny, parents can try to sue the school, I don't know how to put this, without stepping on toes...
If it were an adult with a minor, people would be notified. It is not the case. Most likely parents would not win suit, think of all the pregnancies of minors. Neither of them are 16.
If dh crosses the line and tells the parents he will lose his job and could be sued by the school and the company he works for ... what do they call that a catch 22...
I want to make aware to everyone with kids what kids are doing and if they are not actually "caught in the act" nothing is done.
You all might hate me when I say this, sex is not the responsibility of the school. The parents brought them into this world and that's who they have learned from and anyone else in between
I AM NOT DEFENDING PUBLIC SCHOOLS, I DON'T LIKE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, I DO NOT SEND MY KIDS TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
This is a very touchy subject (public schools) with dh and I. He has worked with troubled youth since 2000 and you wouldn't believe what we know. He wants to write a book about the following subjects.
Troubled Youths
Public Schools
Troubled Youth Facilities
and the list goes on, but he will step on so many toes, he will not be able to work in public school systems ever. Most of you are unaware of the darkness of public schools. There are good ones, but once again they hide a lot of stuff to make themselves look good.
IMO, I believe a meeting should be set up with the kids, principal, counselor and parents.
Most parents think, my kids going to have sex anyway at some point, big deal and not show up (I am not one of those parents) but a lot of parents are like that, they even given them condoms and birth control.
I do not want to upset anyone with this post. It is a truthful post, it has happened. Dh can not confront the students or the parents about the notes. I want you all to be aware and prepared and prepare your kids, it's just like drugs, it is out there.
This makes me so angry. Dh is eventually going to be a Christian Counselor, and he wants to be known as that. However, there is patient/counselor confidentiality and he is aware of what he can tell parent's and authorities if he has to deal with troubled youth in that area.
THIS IS SO SAD AND MAKES ME SO ANGRY. Our society allows children to grow up way to fast.
I'm sorry I'm just venting.
I agree with all of you, they should know but that won't be the case because they weren't "caught in the act."
Sorry so long, it just makes me sick
I hear you! I think a lot of parents have no idea what is going on in public schools, esp if they are in a "good" district. They have a false sense of security. The middle school girls are so aggressive, sexually.
I attended public schools and my cousins attended only private. They have told me all along that public is bad. I thought they were Private School Elitists (though I love them regardless). It was clear their education was much better than mine, just by talking to us, although I managed to graduate from a top state school after a difficult 1st semester when I realized the public school hadn't prepared me properly. I had to play catch-up. My cousins were fully prepared for college.
I had my son in an exemplary public elementary school. There were a lot of things to like about the school including the fact I went there a long time ago. It's ranked exemplary, it's a Blue Ribbon School, there are a lot of involved parents (too involved if you ask me), the average length of time for teachers to have worked there was 16 years, many having been there 25+ years, their scores on the state test were all 98%-100% with most being 100% across the board. Parents are nice, not cliquish. Active PTA. (I posted more about this school on the other post in General.)
Then I put my son in a private school because the public school wasn't able to teach him how to read. And I tell you what. You think you have it good in a good public school until you get into a good private school. THIS is what school should be like. Nothing and nobody falls through the cracks. Nothing goes unnoticed. There's constant communication with parents. The school's staff knows what they are doing. They like and respect the kids. Everyone walks around happy and with a such gratitute this place exists.
In the public school, the staff is always suspicious of the kids. The kids are the wild animals that need to be somehow contained until summer. The parents are always on the defensive.
Thank you Laura!!
I would like to go around the country informing people how public schools really are....
Parents need to WAKE UP!!!
In Washington County Maryland a teacher right out of college makes $35,000, and a lot of them complain about that. How many other professionals with a bachelors degrees receive that much income a year? These teachers are paid very well. I know there are a lot of good teachers out there, but I think the bad ones far out weigh the good ones.
Most of my wild times came when I was in private all girls Catholic school than when I was in public school! LOL
Marg, a finace major with a Bachelor's degree starting out in a bank training program makes around $40K with the potential to move up into 6 figures. Teachers don't get paid near enough in my opinion.
CPA's in our area only start out at $25,000-$28,000. Remember this is the area I live in. Teachers make different in all areas. A finance major around here would only start in the mid $20's. The teacher's dh works with complain all the time about money. He does the exact same thing as a teacher and doesn't even get paid half of what they are paid. When he receives his Bachelor's in our area he will only make $22,000. Very sad...
I don't think it's wise to make such blanket statements about public schools. A school isn't bad because it is public. A school isn't good because it is private. It starts at the top. If the administration has their focus in the wrong place it will trickle down to the students. But people generally get into education careers because of their love of children and their desire to make a difference in the life of a child. I think teachers and administrators typically have the childrens interests at heart and do their very best. Sometimes a school falls short. Sometimes a school is simply not a good fit for a particular student or family. Sometimes the funding isn't adequate to meet the kids needs. That's just the way it goes sometimes. But to want to shout out to the world the evils of public schools is a bit extreme, in my opinion. It's up to each individual family to educate themselves about the school their child is attending, watch and listen to what is happening and act if something is not right, whether that means to change the system or to switch to a different school. And I strongly disagree with the statement that their are more bad teachers out there than good. I am just sorry to hear your experience has shown you the opposite.
You are right Melanie, I shouldn't lump all schools and teachers together. It usually isn't the elementary schools, it is the middle schools- junior highs. The Senior highs aren't even bad. Sorry, I don't mean to sound so negative, but it seems like the younger generation of teachers (a lot of them in this area) is in it for the money and that they don't have to work a full year.
This isn't just one system, it is a whole county. I have also found out today, (I live on the PA/MD border) a lot of schools in this area would not inform parents of such a note. I should stick to the subject and not complain...
Parents should know there school systems, however, the information dh knows parents would never be able to find out, that is the sad part. If this would have happened to anyone of our children, we would have never known about it.
Ditto Melanie. 
As a former teacher myself, I'd like to add that people do NOT go into teaching for the $! Sorry, that one had me LOL. If you compare that to other (degree required) careers $35,000 isn't really that much. My DH told me an administrative assistant at his company can make that much easily with NO degree. BTW, I taught for ten years before kids (not in public schools) and never made anywhere near $35,000.
My children go to public schools and get nearly all A's on their report cards. My freshman in high school just had a 4.7 on her report card. My 6th grader had about a 3.6, I think. They concentrate on their schoolwork and are not looking to see who they can have sex with.
My husband and I also went to public schools from kindergarten all the way through college. I wouldn't say that ALL public schools are bad.
Can I ask if you all know how much your local school districts pay beginner teachers...
This was in our local newspaper last weekend...
This is the average for our rural area..
I am an accountant have been for 18 years, never made this kind of money and most people don't in our area with a degree.
I am informing you about our area.
No administrative assistant makes this much in this area.
I'm not trying to start a fight about teacher's salaries, this is the beginning salary for teachers in our area. It was in the newspaper and teacher's salaries are public knowledge.
http://finance1.doe.mass.edu/schfin/statistics/teacher_salary.aspx?ID=745
I agree about the difficulty of suing schools, but discussion of the possibility might change some minds. Keep in mind that if someone sues, even if the lawsuit doesn't go anywhere it costs attorney fees to defend, and since lawsuits are a matter of public record some enterprising newspaper reporter could find out about it.
As a legal secretary in a firm which represents plaintiffs (victims), I know quite well the difficulties in suing any governmental system. But we do, and sometimes we win for the client. It's not easy, but it does happen. And, win or lose, change often occurs because the system is forced to realize that the practice which was the basis for the lawsuit is a bad practice or policy.
Teachers in our county have a starting salary of $37,000. However, the median house price is $580,000. So I can safely say our teachers do not teach for the money. They teach because it is their passion.
I understand the ratio Melanie.
In our area starting salary $35,000, you can buy a house for $100,000 and up, depending on what you want, there are even houses below $100,000. Average house price $125,000.
Starting salary around here is around $36,000 for teachers, which includes 3 months paid vacation.
Colette,
What's the average house cost in your area,
Same goes with you Mommmie....
Yes, starting salary is what I said for 181 days of school and if they work summer school they are paid extra.
http://content.salary.monster.com/?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_n=01;CRK;GOO;KWD;KWD71;A0;C;TXK
Hope this works, link to average salary of almost any job in anywhere in the US. Fill in job and zip or state-city, go to next page, I hit Education and then Teacher - high school. Then hit the second search bottom and it was right on the nose.
In our area there is a demand for teachers and they are paid very well for the number of days per year paid, benefits, etc, if you consider this against other jobs in our area.
Like I said I don't want to start a fight about salaries. Teachers salaries in our area rank right up there between LPNs and RNs.
The problem is what the schools consider to be public knowledge.
Dh came home today to inform me that these two received 1 day of inschool suspension, which rarely ever occurs.
Hmm on to teacher pay...I was a teacher. Texas state base when I taught 10 years ago was 16K. Yes I only worked 190 days a year, but I did go to college for 4 years to make less that some one who works at McD. I don't think teachers are mostly underpaid, but I don't think they are overpaid.
2003 teacher salaries in Sheboygan, WI
- Avg low salary -- $12,183
- Avg High salary -- $63,570
- Avg Salary -- $48,343
- Avg years of experience 12.08
I believe average home price here is $120,000. Course, this is a big metropolitan area so it goes from one extreme to another. Our house, 2400sq feet, is appraised at $163,000. My son's good friend from school lives in a huge house appraised at $786,000.
I agree there are good public schools and bad public schools. But regardless of that, they are still schools run by the govt and are at the mercy of govt bureaucracy. They have to abide by govt rules and jump through govt hoops. No matter how good they are. They can't escape it.
I was a huge public school fan. Really, I was. But that got slowly eroded.
When my son was 4 he took 30 min/week of speech therapy at the neighborhood public school. I sat in the school office and waited for him. It was chaos in there. Parents storming in and out saying a child threatened to kill their child, parents bringing in kindergarten kids they've found wondering around the parking lot, a kid running out in the drive-through trying to escape spewing cuss words with the asst principal chasing him until she tackled him in the middle of the driveway in front of cars, overhearing office staff talk badly, very badly, about parents, chaos, constant chaos. And this was a suburban school with an exemplary rating and middle class to upper-middle class parents. When you saw a police car out front of the school you no longer assumed they were some class's guest speaker. They were called.
And then we he started there as a regular student it just went downhill from there. He did have a wonderful 1st grade teacher. The afterschool program was quite good and run by the school. That was the good. There was a lot more bad though. (See my other post about his 2nd grade teacher being fired for her behavior in the classroom, for one example.)
The private evaluator who tested my son for learning disabilities also worked part-time in another suburban public school district. She was able to talk freely to me since I was paying her privately with no association to the public schools. What she said was frightening. She said she noticed things going bad in the public schools around 1997. In 1999, two siblings in her district, age 10 (boy) and 14 (girl), killed their 6 year old brother for fun. She said that was isolated only in that it resulted in a murder, but these kinds of bizarre violent things were becoming very common among kids in the public schools. She said if at all possible get my son out of public schools, she said.
And the high stakes testing! Ugh! That's all these schools teach! That's a whole 'nother debate.
-Laura
Marg,
I have to agree with you that for this area, teachers are paid well. In my opinion, VERY well compared to other jobs. My sister teaches in a Jr. High school in the Lancaster area and started at $32,000. Just five years later, she has gotten her Master's degree and has moved in pay considereably. Now remember just 5 years have passed and she is tenured and making $52,000 a year.
It can be quite a hot topic around the old holiday family dinner table and often the subject is forbidden. But that is an enormous amount of money to be making in such a short amount of time. She made $50,000 last year just before she got her master's so the big pay hike was not because of her education.
She is a good teacher and to argue the other side of the street. Being a teacher is a scarey situation in this day and age. When she was doing her student teaching in Harrisburg, PA, a student set fire to her classroom one day. Another day, two students got into a fight and when she tried to break it up she got a black eye and a broken rib. After that she had a baseball bat allowed by the principal in her classroom. Teacher's are now allowed to have cell phones in their classroom. It's for their own safety. Last year a student came into their school and shot their principal and himself in front of a cafeteria full of kids.
So, I guess as far as salaries go I walk a line. Yes, they do get paid an extroidinary amount of money and the good ones are still under paid. However, there are many teachers who are not worth half of what they make in public schools and those seem to be the ones that stay forever.
Thanks Amanda for stepping in, I know most everyone on the board thinks I'm a luney now.
But you should hear the stories dh brings home. These teachers constantly complain about their job. They are only there for the money and they out right say that. In the middle school where dh works only 2 he said seems like they really want to be there and enjoy it.
Dh doesn't make anywhere near this amount ($32,000) and won't until he gets his masters You'd laugh at what we live off of. The worst thing is dh works with these "troubled kids" you speak of and he is supposed to intersect all problems. We both know that these troubled kids could come in with knives or guns and dh might be the first one to confront them He is basically never allowed to send them to the principals office unless 2 teachers along with dh agree to send them (upon the principal's orders).
I'm just complaining now, I wish all teachers were caring, kind and considerate to students, but when I look back that only really happened in elementary school. Middle school and high school teachers moved on to better paying jobs or were sticking it out until their retirement
Thanks once again, Amanda! What actual school will your son go to?
You're not crazy, Marg. Alot of it is in where you live and what you've had to deal with. You have a unique perspective on public school. Alot of what your DH brings home most people would never know about.
Right now they are still moving kids around and I don't know if they've settled the redistricting. At this point with Timmy only being 20 months old I have a little bit of time to worry about it. He can stay at his daycare for Kindergarten too if we want which will be nice.
I like his daycare teachers and he has been there since he was 8 weeks old. So for now we are happy but I am not looking forward to those school years ahead.
This isn't part of the original debate, but it seems to have drifted on to this topic:
TEACHERS GET PAID TOO MUCH
I am fed up with teachers and their hefty salary guides. What we need here is a little perspective. If I had my way, I'd pay these teachers myself.... I'd pay them babysitting wages. That's right... instead of paying these outrageous taxes, I'd give them $3.00 an hour out of my own pocket. And I'm only going to pay them for five hours, not coffee breaks. That would be $15.00 a day - each parent should pay $15.00 a day for these teachers to babysit their child. Even if they have more than one child, it's still a lot cheaper than private day care.
Now, how many children do they teach a day - maybe twenty? That's $15.00 x 20 = $300 a day. But, remember they only work 180 days a year!! I'm not going to pay them for all those vacations. $300 x 180 = $54,000. (Just a minute, I think my calculator needs batteries.)
I know now you teachers will say what about those who have ten years' experience and a Master's degree? Well, maybe (to be fair) they could get the minimum wage, and instead of just babysitting, they could read the kids a story. We can round that off to about $5.00 an hour, times five hours, times 20 children. That's $500 a day times 180 days. That's $90,000....HUH???? Wait a minute, let's get a little perspective here. Babysitting wages are too good for these teachers. Did anyone see a salary guide around here??
Author Unknown
I have a dear friend who is a retired teacher. She taught for 40 years at the school my children now attend. She says her husband is happy that she is retired because he no longer feels like a widower for 9 months out of the year. Most teachers put in many hours beyond the school day. And they do put in hours during their summer break preparing their class and getting ready for the next school year. For teachers who can make a decent salary in an area that doesn't cost a fortune to live, hooray for them! It's really sad, Marg, that the teachers you spoke of have lost sight of why they became teachers.
And Marg, I certainly do not think you are looney. I think you are very passionate about an issue near and dear to your heart. I'm sure if I saw and heard half of what you have I would feel just as passionate. We'll see how I feel when my kids are out of elementary school as you have stated several times you don't see this at the early levels like you do later. Right now I see very dedicated, loving teachers working with my kids and they have my complete support.
I am glad you brought all of this up. It is food for thought and I will be watching closely as my kids grow. I think it's important that we all be aware of what may happen at our kids schools. So thank you for starting this topic.
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