Spanking
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Spanking
I saw it come up in another board and thought it would be interesting.
Were you spanked as a child?
Do you spank? Why or why not?
If you were spanked did it benefit you?
I was spanked. Not in a good way. It made me more mad and angry, but I do spank my children but not often. I tell my two year old that she has to get a spanking and why and have her turn around and give her a swat or two. Doing it that way proves for me more effective than doing it without warning. I do spank her without warning when I need to make a quick point like her playing witha candle or something serious like that. I think the difference is when you are spanked out of anger or correction. I was always spanked out of anger and as a reaction, not with a corrective attitude.
I didn't have a very good childhood, we will just leave it at that. I do think that it made me a better parent. I have learned what not to do with my childeren. We do spank but not very often and only when there is big trouble. Instead we take away privlidges. It seems to work very well with my 5 y.o. My 1 y.o. gets time outs, a lot. I think the reason why the majority of society is so messed up is because some childeren didn't have consequences for thier actions while they were growing up.
While shopping with a wife from one of my husbands old units, her 5 year old son wanted a $40 gamboy game, he had been acting up all day and she told him "NO, you have not been very good today you don't deserve it." He through a fit, laying on the ground, kicking and screaming calling her a bad mom, telling her he hated her...she picked him up, spanked him put him in the cart and threw the game at him. She ended up buying the game because she felt guilty for spanking him. This was not an isolated incident. To me there were a lot of things wrong with that but mostly I don't believe in rewarding a child for bad behavior. This is the same child that is having behavior problem in school and the mom dosn't understand why..She says the teacher is picking on him. I feel that this is one of the reasons some childeren grow up to be a menace to society.
I agree with spanking to teach a lesson, I never do it out of anger, I am too afraid of taking it to far if I did.
This is my opinion, I don't mean to offend anyone.
I, too, was spanked as a child. My Dad did it to correct me. My Mom had a "hair trigger" temper, and did it out of anger. When I got to be a teenager, my Dad would just say, "I'm SO DISSAPOINTED in you". That hurt worse, to know that I hurt him. I would have RATHER had a spanking. LOL
We can't spank our adopted DS's, because, a). They're teenagers, and b). We were advised against it, because they were so HORRIBLY abused by their birth parents, that it could trigger flashbacks for them.
I DID spank my older DK's, but, also, not often. Mostly when they did something dangerous. I was much more of a disciplinarian than DH. It didn't hurt them, and they both grew up to be really good, responsible, and LOVING adults.
That mother was SO wrong to buy that game for that child. What does that teach him? Too many parents "cave in" over guilt, or to get some peace. JMHO
My step dad used the belt on us as kids and I can remember some things about that. My kids do get spanked, but not very hard and not that often. They don't cry or scream after I do it, but they have laughed at me. I guess I am more afraid of hurting them by spanking hard. I'm not sure if that's why I won't do it or because I had the belt when I was younger and I had fear from that. If I was the mom with the little 5 year old, I would do the same thing I do with Jessica. Tell her no and if she cries, oh well. I will be leaving the store anyway without the toy. Jessica has started to push those buttons where she tells me that she hates me and gets real mad and I turn and say, "I love you too." This way seems to work for me.
I was spanked as a child. Spanked, not beat.
I have no bad memories of it...except not liking it of course.
I also spank from time to time. Mostly when DD was around 2yrs old. Now it is not often at all, but it does happen after fare warning.
STanding your ground and upholding your threats is the greatest means of discipline. NO WAY would my child have gotten a toy. Infact I would have left way before it got that far. Last month DD was not following the rules while shopping. Jumping, not staying close, pulling on the cart and so on. So I said "if I tell you once more, we are going home". WEll, once more happened. With half full cart, I went to the nearest employee. Told them I had a discipline issue and needed my cart to be placed in the cold area. So they took my cart. I drove DD home and went shopping a few hours later to finish. Man oh man, was I not happy. I was getting sick that day, and I was soooo tired. It would have been easier to finish shopping and just keep telling her "if you do that one more time....", however, that would have not gotten us anywhere w/ bad behavior.
As long as you are not beating your child, I do believe in spankings. Sometimes as a first resort, but usually not my first choice. I also talk to DD why it happens. It is not just a "hit and run" punishment.
We spank, very rarely, only as a last resort when the time outs and sending to the room doesn't fix the problem. We've only had to do it a few times, now all we have to do is say "im going to count to three, if you don't stop it (or whatever) you get a spanking, 1!" and he/she stops. We usually do time outs or send them to their rooms though.
And they don't get rewarded for bad behavior. If they scream for a toy in the store, we leave the store with out anything for them.
I wasn't spanked by my mom, but my Aunt would spank me and her 4 kids if we all got into trouble. I spent a ton of time there, and she joked I was her oldest DD, so I can remember a few spankings. I know I hated them, but don't think I'm worse off for them. I spank the twins when they are absolutely out of control, but it doesn't really seem to phase them. I'm finally getting to that age where time outs are somewhat possible, but still difficult to impose. Usually a swat on the hand or bottom works better.
I think when parents spank their children most of the time it is an excited moment and they are not helping calm the situation. If the kid is crying and all upset and you pick them up and give them a swat or two it doesn't do anything to calm them and control the situation. It is better for me to tell her "that is enough" and since she didn't listen she has to get a spanking then have her trun around. She cries some but it is most of the time a more controlled cry not a fit. Then after a minute or two depending I will pick her up and hug her and talk about what happened. It doesn't always go that smoothly, but I try not to contribute to the caos that she is feeling and acting. Hope I made sense.
I spanked mine, not often at all, and it was usually just a quick swat on the tush, to get their attention when they didn't listen, but I wish I hadn't.
My dad used to spank us, HARD with an alligator skin belt. He would line the 3 of us up, make us bend over the bed and then came the lashes of that freaking belt. And he always gave me *one more, because you're the oldest*. I HATED him for it back then. It hurt and left welts, and it was humiliating and of course, we cried, and then he got PO'd because we were crying. Looking back, he obviously had some kind of issues there. My mom used to spank us with rubber thong sandles - those hurt too. When I was about 10 y/o, he came after me with that belt because he thought I'd done something which I truthfully had not, and I ran and hid in my closet, which had louver doors, and when he reached in to grab me I shut the door and it caught his hand which was holding the belt. For some reason, that was the last time he ever attempted to spank any of us. Maybe it shocked him into seeing how terrified we were, and what that was doing to us, I don't know.
I always tried to teach my kids that you didn't settle differences with physical violence, and that's pretty much how I see it now, probably because of the way I feel about the way my dad spanked us.
Jules told me last week, that she spanked Madison for something and Madison hit her back, and she didn't know how to handle it, since by telling her *it's wrong to hit*, she was, in effect, contradicting what she herself had just done.
And now when I see how some parents lose control and spank in anger and actually hurt their kids, it really upsets me. I just think there are better ways of handling problems.
I was spanked and believe in spanking but only as a last resort! JMO, dont have much to add since DD is too young for spankings 
"I always tried to teach my kids that you didn't settle differences with physical violence..."
That sentence pretty much sums up the way I feel about spanking.
If I resort to it as a way discipline I believe I'm teaching my children that is OK if you are bigger and stronger to use physical force in a human relationship.
Whether that relationship is their future husband beating them or them hitting their future wife it's not an lesson I want to teach.
I've noticed since we stopped using spankings with our son he's more gentile with other children and it's much easier to say
"Hitting is WRONG!"
without feeling like a hypocrite.
I was very infrequently spanked as a child and the only thing I remember from it is fear and terror. That is not something I want my children to remember of their childhood.
I was spanked and sure didn't like it! I have only rarely spanked mine. And certainly not with a wooden spoon. Now, they are too old for that anyway.
My mother was a hitter. She would swing whatever she had in her hands, or was close by...a belt, a wire, a dish towel or a stick. Dad rarely hit, but when he did, you had a broken bone or black eye. I had welts and bruises often. They were also good on grounding. I spent most of my high school days grounded. If I wasn’t on the honor roll I was grounded until the next report card. Back then, that meant that you had to have 85% or better in every subject. I finally asked my high school counselor to find a way to get me made a ward of the court. He intervened with my parents to try to get them to ease off a bit.
Since the only way I’d ever seen discipline applied, was with a belt or fist, I hit my kids early on. I did learn pretty quickly though, that this wasn’t the way to go....I resolved to never hit my kids in anger. They did get their butts paddled, but never more than three smacks, and never with anything other than my hand. I always walked away, and came back to administer the punishment after I was calm. Today I don’t believe in punishing with physical pain. I do think that sometimes a swat is needed to get a child’s attention, but only a swat. A punishment should teach a child more than the fact that the big guys can and will hurt you if you make them mad.
Were you spanked as a child?
After a while no one would hit me because I yelled at the top of my lungs as if someone was murdering me. The neighbors would call child services.
Yes. I got a black eye once. I had brooms throw at me if I didn't come to get hit.
I was almost burnt on a stove once as punishment or a lesson that stoves are hot.
Do you spank?
No
Why or why not?
Self explanatory. Would you?
If you were spanked did it benefit you?
No. I was also a honor roll kid.
I got into daily fights after school due to the spanking.
I left home at 14 for a few years until my uncle died.
I learned to hate and not trust my mother and uncle.
I have a problem with verbal anger from my experience as a child.
I also have a permanent distrust of authority and am incapable of working for anyone else but myself.
After being a very popular child with many close friends. I now of course have a problem with close friendship due to my negative experience as a child.
I feel that physical punishment permanently damaged my personality.
There really is no recovery from what happened to me. It is burned into my brain.
Feona, I would agree that physical punishment damages someone emotionally. And I believe (hope) that recovery is possible. Physical abuse/punishment, no doubt, leaves emotional scars, that I'm sure are difficult to move past. But if you can make that horrifying experience work in doing something *positive*, it's the fact that you would never do that to another human being.
I think when we say spank we al have different definitions in our mind. I am not talking about someone who snatches them up by one arm, sapnks them a few times as a reaction to what they are doing while yelling. My mother would just out of nowhere spank us and yell at us at the same time. My dad rarely spanked and when he did we knew why and we didn't do it again. IT was a controlled punishment and that is what I am talking about. There is a difference of properly punishing them and just pulling rank because you are bigger. I do agree that children who are spanked like that tend to be more violent when they don't get their way. BUt done properly and not for everything it proves to be very effective. Positive behavior has positive consequences and negative behavior has negative consequences and we should teach that to our children in all punishment and rewards.
My dad once told me not to tell my 2 year old "no" because it was negative. I should tell her stop or don't or something. But if the behavior was negative then a stern "no" is in order. just my opinion. I had both worlds. A stepmom whom I hated because she pulled rank almost arrogantly adn a dad that I listened to and was only spanked when needed and not for everything.
In my opionion one of the biggest problems with spanking is the problem of "escalation". In other words:
Let's say you've decided to adhere to some "code" when spanking:
Only use your hand
Only so many whacks
Only for certain offenses
etc.
What happens if you spank the child and he/she doesn't change their behavior?
Spank again?
Longer?
Harder?
Use a paddle?
What is the limit?
It is very dangerous for an adult to hit a child even on the bottom. Each year, dozens of children are hurt and killed by adults who were "only disciplining"
their children and went too far.
Did you know that the following countries have OUTLAWED spanking in any form:
Sweden
Finland
Denmark
Germany
Italy
Norway
Austria
Cyprus
Croatia
Latvia
http://www.nospank.net/plntk.htm
When Nichole started becoming mobile, our DS and DIL thought that telling her NO would injure her psyche. They would simply remove the object or put it up. I asked them how she would learn what was good for her to touch, and what was harmful, if she was never taught the difference. They were adamant, and continued on with their way. The next time I visited, they were yelling no and smacking those little grabbing fingers. I think Mom and Dad learned faster than Nichole. LOL
I understand what you are saying John. I understand that so many children are abused everyday physically and emotionally from parents "disciplining" their children. My stepdad thought he would "teach us a lesson" with a belt and then send us to bed without dinner. That was abuse when he spanked. I think not too many parents spank their children properly. THe thing about it is that you don't use it everytime for everything. for instance. My daughter was playing with a candle. She climbed up on the piano and was trying to mess with it. I went up to her and said very sternly "abby don't touch. THat is hot and is a no no." then smacked her hand. She gets a spanking when she goes too close to the road (wich she knows better).
example. We don't say abby stop screaming or you will get a spanking. then spank her and she is still screaming so we spank her again and then tell her to stop and then she doesn't and so we spank her harder and she keeps screaming and so then it escalates.
We haven't made a "code" or anything. We do spank with our hand and I don't think i ever gave her more than two swats. Spankings are not used everyday and definetely not for everything. Coloring on the wall does not warrant a spanking. She puts her nose on the wall or we talk about how she shouldn't do it and she gets to "clean" it up. A lot of times she can be persuaded to do what we want. For instance if we want her to come to us and she doesn't really want to, we don't talk stern or yell, we say in a playful nice voice "abby come here come see mommmy or daddy." or something like that. I read a book called "you cn't make me but I can be persuaded" and it is so true about a lot of things.
So not spanking does not necessarily mean that you are bad parents and spanking properly does not mean you abuse your children or you are likely to abuse your children. We have worked hard to abandon the way of discipling we were taught by our parents and in apppropriate circumstances she get swats. The punishment needs to make the crime not desirable so it doesn't happen again. And I don't mean spanking more or harder. I mean the punishment has to fit and in some cases spanking can be very effective if used properly. Another thing we don't do that my MIL suggested is to "give her something to cry about" . She was crying and thought I should spank her for crying while in the car. Doesn't make sense. why spank a child for crying just to make her cry more. and then it totally does nothing. It makes her more upset and feel alienated from the parent.
Anyways I could go on.
Excerpted from the link in my previous post.
Plain Talk about Spanking
By JORDAN RIAK
Today, one finds no support for spanking in the scientific literature. This opinion, shared by mental health and child development experts, and other professionals in related fields, has been evolving for many decades and its beginnings can be found centuries ago.
That is not to say there are no advocates for physical punishment of children, as indeed it would be false to claim there are no advocates for physical punishment of wives. Both practices are widespread and people who hit other people usually believe they have valid reasons.
The Lasting Effect on Children
Some researchers claim that every act of violence by an adult toward a child, no matter how brief or how mild, leaves an emotional scar that lasts a lifetime. To some extent we can demonstrate this from personal experience. Most of us must admit that the most vivid and most unpleasant childhood memories are those of being hurt by our parents. Some people find the memory of such events so unpleasant they pretend that they were trivial, even funny. You’ll notice that they smile when they describe what was done to them. It is shame, not pleasure, that makes them smile. As a protection against present pain, they disguise the memory of past feelings.
In an attempt to deny or minimize the dangers of spanking, many spankers have been heard to argue, “Spanking is very different from child abuse,” or “A little smack on the bottom never did anybody any harm.” But they are wrong.
A good comparison to spanking is exposure to chemical compounds containing lead. In earlier generations, most people lived in houses painted with lead based paint, and most survived with no apparent ill effects. Were they smart, or just lucky? Today, we don’t do that anymore. We know better. Likewise, informed parents recognize that spanking children is like exposing them to a dangerous toxin. No good can result and the risk is great.
But some parents will ask, “How can you claim to be a responsible parent if you don’t grab the child who is about to run out into traffic and deliver a good smack so that your warnings about the danger of the street will be remembered?”
In fact, being spanked throws children into a state of powerful emotional confusion making it difficult for them to learn the lessons adults claim they are trying to teach. Delivering a so-called "good smack" neither diminishes the adult’s anger nor improves the child’s behavior. Adults who spank tend to get angrier; spanked children tend to behave worse. And spanking's negative effect on a child can be long-lasting or permanent. It does not teach children that cars and trucks are dangerous. It teaches them that the grownups on whom they depend are dangerous.
Lost Trust
The spanked child is less able to regard the parent as a source of love, protection and comfort which are vital to every child’s healthy development. In the child’s eyes the parent now appears to be the source of danger and pain.
Fear, resentment and mistrust that result from spanking, undermine children’s feelings of attachment to the most important adults in their lives. A child who is thus betrayed, like the child who is denied adequate food, warmth or rest, suffers and fails to mature in the best possible way.
Threats
Some parents rarely spank or don’t spank at all, but are always threatening to do terrible things. “If you don’t keep quiet while I’m on the phone, I’m going to sew your mouth shut with a big needle,” or “Better watch out, or somebody is going to chop your fingers off. That’s what they do to naughty children who are always touching things they shouldn’t.” They find it easy to manage children by these means —at least temporarily.
At first, while children believe adults’ threats, they obey out of fear. But they soon learn to sneak and tell lies in order to evade the terrible punishments they believe are in store for them. Later, as they discover the threats are empty, they conclude (correctly) that the grown-ups they once trusted are in fact not trustworthy.
When trust between children and their closest caretakers is damaged in this way, the children’s ability to form trusting relationships with others is also damaged. This may render them incapable of ever achieving cooperation or intimacy with anyone. People who have been damaged in this way tend to see all relationships as negotiations, as deals to be won or lost. They see innocence, honesty and trustfulness in others as weaknesses to be exploited, exactly as it was once done to them.
Force
Spanking teaches children that human interaction is based on force, that might makes right. The more a child is spanked, the greater is the likelihood that that child will become an adult who deals with others, not by reason and good example, but by force. What kind of person are we describing? The bully is such a person. The rapist is such a person. The wife beater is such a person. The quack, the cheat, the con artist, the crook—each of these is such a person. And so are cowards and hangers-on who derive their power secondhand by clinging to such people as those we’ve just listed.
Spousal Battery and Spanking
In the overwhelming majority of cases, husbands and wives whose relationship includes violence are also violent toward their children. Such parents surely were spanked when they were little and witnessed others being spanked.
Battering and battered spouses who spank their children are raising them to be batterers and victims exactly like themselves. The children learn from their parents’ example that the way to vent frustration, express disapproval and assert authority is by hitting someone smaller and weaker than themselves. They see this principle demonstrated every time they witness their parents fighting, as well as every time they are on the receiving end of violent punishments.
They learn that once they are big enough and strong enough, they can control others by threatening or hurting them. They learn that it is okay for husbands and wives to batter each other and for adults to batter children.
When children, whose personalities have been formed in violent households, grow up and produce children of their own, they find it very difficult to break free from the behaviors they have witnessed and experienced. The skills they apply to family life will be the poor ones they learned from their parents, and they are likely to carry on the cycle of violence through their own innocent children.
As spanking disappears from family life, other forms of domestic violence will also disappear. Not before.
Escalation
Physical injuries and deaths of children caused by their caretakers often are the consequence of physical punishment carried to extremes. Perpetrators of even the most horrendous acts against children typically explain that the child's misbehavior called for punishment, and the outcome was unintended or accidental. To order hard copy of this 12-page booklet
go to Order Form
Many of the babies who die annually "falling out of the crib," "falling down the stairs" or because they "just stopped breathing for no reason" would be added to the statistic of non-accidental deaths if the truth were known. Sometimes the victim is blamed for his own misfortune, e.g, the child "bruises easily," "is accident prone" or "refused to stand still while being punished, and that's why the belt buckle caught his lip."
Spankers are often heard reciting the soothing catchphrase about never spanking in anger. This bogus claim belies what typically motivates people who hit children: anger. Many spankers are habituated to the act because it provides an instant outlet for feelings of frustration and anger -- not because they've found it an effective way to improve a child's behavior. Because anger, by its very nature, tends to escalate as it is indulged, there is no safe way to hit a child.
Sexual Molestation and Spanking
Spanked children don’t regard their bodies as being their own personal property. Spanking trains them to accept the idea that adults have absolute authority over their bodies, including the right to inflict pain. And being hit on the buttocks teaches them that even their sexual areas are subject to the will of adults. The child who submits to a spanking on Monday is not likely to say “No” to a molester on Tuesday. People who sexually molest or exploit children know this. They stalk potential victims among children who have been taught to “obey or else” because such children are the easiest targets.
Spanking the Buttocks and Sexual Development
Spanking of the buttocks can stimulate immature sexual feelings in some children. They have no control over those feelings, nor do they understand what is happening to them. The tragic consequence for some of these children is that they form a connection between pain, humiliation and sexual arousal that endures for the rest of their lives. Even though they may marry, raise families, hold responsible positions in the community and show no signs of emotional disturbance, they may be secretly and shamefully tormented by a need which, in some cases, compels them to hire prostitutes whom they spank or from whom they receive spankings. The pornography industry does a thriving business catering to the needs of these unfortunate individuals.
Medical science has long recognized and documented in great detail the link between buttocks-beating in childhood and the later development of unnatural sexual desires and behaviors. This should be reason enough never to spank a child.
Physical Danger of Hitting the Buttocks
Located deep in the buttocks is the sciatic nerve, the largest nerve in the body. A severe blow to the buttocks, particularly with an instrument such as a piece of wood, could cause bleeding in the muscles that surround that nerve, possibly injuring it and causing impairment to the involved leg.
The very delicate tail bone at the base of spine is also susceptible to injury when a child is hit there. And when children are required to bend over for beatings, their sex organs may be injured. Dislocation of the tail bone and bruising the sex organs as a result of violent punishments are frequently reported by hospital authorities.
Some people, in their attempt to justify battering children’s buttocks, claim that God or nature intended that part of the anatomy for spanking. That claim is nonsense. No part of the human body was made to be violated.
Physical Danger of Hitting the Hands
The child’s hand is particularly vulnerable because its ligaments, nerves, tendons and blood vessels are close to the skin which has no underlying protective tissue. Striking the hands of younger children is especially dangerous to the growth plates in the bones which, if damaged, can cause deformity or impaired function. Striking a child’s hand can also cause fractures, dislocations and lead to premature osteoarthritis.
Shaking
Being shaken can cause a child blindness, whiplash, brain damage and even death.
Spanking at Home, Performance in School
Most teachers will tell you that the children who exhibit the most serious behavior problems at school are the ones who are the most mistreated at home. Children who are spanked at home have been conditioned to expect the same kind of management by authority figures outside the home. For many of these children, the battle zone which is their home life extends to school life. This sets them up for academic failure, dropout, clashes with juvenile authorities and eventually perhaps with the criminal justice system.
In their attempt to erect a shield against what they see as a comfortless, hostile world, these children naturally seek the company of other children with similar problems. “My parents and teachers don’t understand me—my friends do,” they say. And they have good reason to believe that. This is one reason street gangs evolve and why they are especially attractive to children whose self-esteem has been ruined by spanking, whupping, paddling, switching, humiliation, insults, threats, relentless criticism, unreasonable restrictions and physical and emotional neglect.
We should not be surprised that many youngsters reject the adult world to the degree they believe it has rejected them. Nor should we be surprised that adolescents, who throughout childhood have been the brunt of violence, will utilize violence as soon as they are able. As it often turns out, the aggressiveness that many young people cultivate, believing it is essential to their survival, propels them toward failure or catastrophe. Our crowded prisons are proof of this.
Some teachers work tirelessly to redirect the aggressiveness which violence-ridden children have far too much of and instill trust which violence-ridden children have far too little of. But that is a monumental task requiring specialized skills and a level of dedication which not all teachers possess or can maintain for extended periods. It requires extraordinary resources unavailable to the public school systems.
School dropout and juvenile delinquence would diminish substantially if only it were possible to persuade parents and other caretakers to stop socializing children in ways guaranteed to make them antisocial and/or self-destructive. In other words, to stop the spanking and start the nurturing
Spanking, Smoking, Drinking and Drugs
To be spanked is a degrading, humiliating experience. The spanked child absorbs not only the blows, but the message they convey: “You’re worthless. I reject you!” That message powerfully influences the child’s developing personality. It instills self-hatred.
Sooner or later every child is exposed to substances that promise instant relief from feelings of worthlessness and rejection. Everywhere people can be seen putting things into their bodies to make themselves feel good. It is difficult to convince a child who is suffering that such relief is an illusion, that one cannot rebuild damaged self-esteem by means of something swallowed, inhaled or injected, but can easily bury it deeper under the weight of new problems.
Spanking and Criminal Behavior
Everyone is familiar with the list of social maladies believed to be at the root of violent criminal behavior: poverty, discrimination, family breakdown, narcotics, gangs and easy access to deadly weapons. And it’s clear that every item in the above list contributes to violence and crime. However, one key ingredient is rarely acknowledged—spanking.
In 1940, researchers Sheldon and Eleanor Glueck began their famous study of delinquent and nondelinquent boys. They discovered how certain early childhood influences cause children to develop antisocial, violent behaviors. They showed that the first signs of delinquency often appear as early as three—long before children come into contact with influences outside the home. The Gluecks showed that parents who fail to manage their children calmly, gently and patiently, but instead rely on physical punishment, tend to produce aggressive, assaultive children. The more severe and the earlier the mistreatment, the worse the outcome.
The Gluecks also found that the lowest incidence of antisocial behavior is always associated with children who are reared from infancy in attentive, supportive, nonviolent, non-spanking families.
The message here for all parents who want their children never to see the inside of a jail or prison is a simple one: guide gently and patiently—never hit.
Spanking, Racism and Collective Hatreds
Spanking fills children with anger and the urge to retaliate. But this urge is almost never directly acted upon. Even the most severely spanked children, as a general rule, will not strike back at those who have hurt them. Instead, they are likely to seek relief in fantasy where they can safely vent their anger against make-believe adversaries. Sometimes younger brothers or sisters or family pets serve this purpose. Popular entertainment also caters to this need.
As children grow and come under the influence of the prejudices of their community, their anger can be easily channeled toward approved scapegoats. Hate cults and extremist political factions beckon to them with open arms, offering an opportunity to convert fantasy into reality. In every generation, more than a few seize that offer. Their behaviors constitute the worst fallout of the spanking tradition.
Spanking at School
Throughout the developed world spanking by teachers has almost disappeared. It is illegal in every European country and many developing countries. (In Austria, Croatia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Israel, Italy, Latvia, Norway and Sweden no one, including a parent, may legally spank any child in any circumstance.) Among the major, developed industrial nations, the U.S. is the most resistant to reform in this regard. But gradually more states are banning school corporal punishment and in the states that allow it a growing number of school districts are wisely forbidding the practice.
Still, there remain many uninformed teachers and school administrators who, like many uninformed parents, persist in believing that it is okay to manage pupils by means of physical violence or the threat of it. What should enlightened, responsible parents do?
If you knew that a school bus had bald tires and faulty brakes, you would not let your child ride that bus and you would demand that your school authorities correct the problem immediately. If you knew that the air ducts in your school were contaminated with asbestos, you’d remove your child immediately and alert other parents to the danger.
Corporal punishment is no different. It is very dangerous and all sensible people in the community should immediately unite in opposition to it.
As a parent you have a right and an obligation to protect your child from known danger. Inform your local, regional and state education authorities that no one has your permission, nor the moral right, to endanger your child at school.
Spanking and Brain Development
In early childhood, the brain develops faster than any other organ in the body. By age 5, the brain reaches about 90 percent of its adult weight, and by 7, it is fully grown. This makes early childhood a very sensitive and critical period in brain development.
Stress associated with pain and fear caused by spanking can negatively affect the development and function of a child’s brain. It is precisely during this period of great plasticity and vulnerability that many children are subjected to physical punishment. The effect can be a derailing of natural, healthy brain growth resulting in life-long and irreversible abnormalities.
According to researcher Dr. Martin Teicher of McLean Hospital, Belmont, Massachusetts, “We know that an animal exposed to stress and neglect in early life develops a brain that is wired to experience fear, anxiety and stress. We think the same is true of people,” (“Child Abuse Changes the Developing Brain,” Yahoo! News, Dec. 29, 2000).
In Teicher’s article, “The Neurobiology of Child Abuse,” Scientific American, March 2002, he wrote, “New brain imaging surveys and other experiments have shown that child abuse can cause permanent damage to the neural structure and function of the developing brain itself. This grim result suggests that much more effort must be made to prevent childhood abuse and neglect before it does irrevocable harm to millions of young victims (p. 70)... Society reaps what it sows in the way it nurtures children (p. 75).”
No responsible parent would deliberately jeopardize a child’s normal brain development, yet that is precisely what spankers unwittingly do.
WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY
“Any form of corporal punishment or ‘spanking’ is a violent attack upon another human being’s integrity. The effect remains with the victim forever and becomes an unforgiving part of his or her personality — a massive frustration resulting in a hostility which will seek expression in later life in violent acts towards others. The sooner we understand that love and gentleness are the only kinds of called-for behavior towards children, the better. The child, especially, learns to become the kind of human being that he or she has experienced. This should be fully understood by all caregivers.”
Ashley Montagu, Anthropologist
“Corporal punishment of children actually interferes with the process of learning and with their optimal development as socially responsible adults. We feel it is important for public health workers, teachers and others concerned for the emotional and physical health of children and youth to support the adoption of alternative methods for the achievement of self-control and responsible behavior in children and adolescents.”
Dr. Daniel F. Whiteside, Assistant Surgeon General, Department of Health & Human Services (Administration of President Ronald Reagan)
“Punitive measures whether administered by police, teachers, spouses or parents have well-known standard effects: (1) escape—education has its own name for that: truancy, (2) counterattack—vandalism on schools and attacks on teachers, (3) apathy—a sullen do-nothing withdrawal. The more violent the punishment, the more serious the by-products.”
B. F. Skinner, Ph.D., author, Professor of Psychology, Harvard
“Corporal punishment trains children to accept and tolerate aggression. It always figures prominently in the roots of adolescent and adult aggressiveness, especially in those manifestations that take an antisocial form such as delinquency and criminality.”
Philip Greven, Professor of History, Rutgers University
“I have always been an advocate for the total abolition of corporal punishment and I believe the connection with pornography that is so oriented has its roots in our tradition of beating children.”
Gordon Moyes, D. D., Pastor, Uniting Church, Superintendent of the Wesley Central Mission, Sydney, Australia
“The much-touted ‘religious argument’ to support corporal punishment is built upon a few isolated quotes from the Book of Proverbs. Using the same kind of selective reading, one could just as easily cite the Bible as an authority for the practice of slavery, the rigid suppression of women, polygamy, incest and infanticide. It seems to me that the brutal and vindictive practice of corporal punishment cannot be reconciled with the major themes of the New Testament which teach love and forgiveness and a respect for the beauty and dignity of children, and which overwhelmingly reject violence and retribution as a means of solving human conflicts.”
Thomas E. Sagendorf, United Methodist Pastor, Toledo, Ohio
“The development of self-control, which we call conscience, results from the appropriate interaction of children with their caretakers. Children’s experience of love and respect promotes the development of conscience, whereas the experience of fear or pain, as results from spanking and paddling, interferes with this development. Physical punishment of children must end if our society is going to become one that is governed by conscience and self-control rather than be governed by their opposites.”
H. Patrick Stern, M.D., Asst. Prof. of Pediatrics, Psychiatry and Behavioral Pediatrics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences.
“Infliction of pain or discomfort, however minor, is not a desirable method of communicating with children.”
American Medical Association, House of Delegates, 1985
"Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... Beating them, and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise, good, and ingenuous men."
John Locke, 1632-1704, "Some Thoughts Concerning Education," 1692
“Chide not the pupil hastily, for that will both dull his wit and discourage his diligence, but [ad]monish him gently, which shall make him both willing to amend and glad to go forward in love and hope of learning... Let the master say, ‘Here ye do well.’ For I assure you there is no such whetstone to sharpen a good wit and encourage a love of learning as his praise... In mine opinion, love is fitter than fear, gentleness better than beating, to bring up a child rightly in learning.”
Roger Ascham, (Tutor to Queen Elizabeth I), The Schoolmaster, England, published circa 1568
“Children ought to be led to honorable practices by means of encouragement and reasoning, and most certainly not by blows and ill treatment.”
Plutarch, circa 46-120 A.D., “The Education of Children,” Vol. I, Moralia, Ancient Greece
“It is a disgusting and slavish treatment... When children are beaten, pain or fear frequently have the result of which it is not pleasant to speak and which are likely subsequently to be a source of shame, shame which unnerves and depresses the mind and leads the child to shun the light of day and loathe the light... I will spend no longer time on this matter. We know enough about it already.”
Quintilian, circa 35-95 A.D., Institutes of Oratory, Ancient Rome
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Q: What do virtually all juvenile delinquents have in common?
A: They have been raised by spankers.
Q: What was a common feature of the childhoods of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein and Charles Manson?
A: Each one was relentlessly, severely, physically punished as a child.
Q: What do prisoners on death row all have in common?
A: Plenty of spankings during childhood.
Q: What do rapists, arsonists, terrorists, torturers, serial killers, mass murderers, suicide bombers, kidnappers, snipers, assassins, muggers, product tamperers, vandals, spouse batterers and stalkers have in common?
A: Violent upbringing.
Q: Which child is destined never to join the company of felons?
A: One who is raised in a nurturing, attentive, supportive, non-spanking family.
Q: To turn a friendly puppy into a vicious guard dog, what must you do to it?
A: Restrict its movement and beat it often.
HOW YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE
There are people in your community who have never heard the ideas expressed in this publication. It’s time they heard, don’t you agree?
You can help plant the seeds of a more caring, more cooperative and less violent next generation by sharing this information with others—with friends, co-professionals, neighbors, relatives, the parents of your children’s friends, community leaders, religious leaders, your children’s teachers, local and state education authorities and your representatives in government. We believe everyone should hear this message.
We know that some people in your community will reject our conclusions about the dangers of spanking. Some people will refuse to think about it or may even become annoyed or hostile because this information makes them feel extremely uncomfortable. That doesn’t discourage us. It shouldn’t discourage you. There are others who want to know why the old familiar method of socializing children works so poorly.
Also, there are those who already are raising their children without violence but who need to be reassured that they are doing the right thing. Your role is to reach out to those people and to let them know what you know about this matter. Put a copy of Plain Talk... in their hands. And tell them about our Web site, “Project NoSpank” at www.nospank.net where they can learn the 1001 reasons to refrain from spanking.
We are confident that some day soon civilized humanity will look back with astonishment and pity at the time when people believed hitting children was good for them.
RESOURCES AND FURTHER READING
Jane Bluestein. Creating Emotionally Safe Schools: A Guide for Educators and Parents. Deerfield Beach, Florida: Health Communications, Inc., 2001
Alan DeWitt Button. The Authentic Child. New York: Random House, 1969.
Susan Forward. Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life. New York: Bantam Books, 1989.
Ian Gibson. The English Vice. London: Duckworth, 1978.
James Gilligan. Violence: Reflections on a National Epidemic. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1996.
Thomas Gordon. Teaching Children Self-Discipline At Home and At School. New York: Ramdom House, 1989. [PTAVE strongly recommends Thomas Gordon’s Parent Effectiveness Training (P.E.T.) and Teacher Effectiveness Training (T.E.T.)]
Philip Greven. Spare the Child: The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse. New York: Random House, 1991.
Mitch Hall. The Plague of Violence: a preventable epidemic. Checkmate Press, www.CheckmateNow.org, 2002.
Irwin A. Hyman. Reading, Writing and the Hickory Stick: The Appalling Story of Physicaland Psychological Violence in American Schools. Boston: Lexington Books, 1990.
__________, Case Against Spanking: How to Stop Hitting and Start Raising Healthy Kids. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass Inc., 1997.
Irwin A. Hyman and Pamela A. Snook. Dangerous Schools: What We Can Do About the Physical and Emotional Abuse of Our Children. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass Publishers, 1999
Dorothy Otnow Lewis. Guilty by Reason of Insanity - A Psychiatrist Explores the Minds of Killers. New York: The Ballantine Publishing Group, 1998.
Mike A. Males. The Scapegoat Generation: America's War on Adolescents. Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1996.
Michael J. Marshall. Why Spanking Doesn’t Work. Springville, Utah: Bonneville Books, 2002.
Alice Miller. The Truth Will Set You Free: Overcoming Emotional Blindness and Finding Your True Adult Self. New York: Basic Books, 2001.
____________For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child Rearing and the Roots of Violence. New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 1983. [PTAVE strongly recommends all Alice Miller’s works.]
Eli H. Newberger. The Men They Will Become: The Nature and Nurture of Male Character. Cambridge: Perseus Publishing, 1999.
Jane & James Ritchie. Spare the Rod. Sydney: George Allen & Unwin, 1981.
Murray A. Straus. Beating the Devil out of Them: Corporal Punishment in American Families. New York: Free Press, 1994.
Felicity de Zulueta. From Pain to Violence: The Traumatic Roots of Destructiveness. London: Jason Aronson, Inc., 1994.
I do understand a lot of what is written. and I do agree that children punished out of anger and from out of control parents have many problems including violent behavior, drop put of school, and so forth. I think that you could make a lot of the same correlations to parents you raise their voices. It can have a lot of negative affects and produce a lot problems in children. But then you know that you have parents you constanly yell and berate children and then you have parents you raise their voice in appropriate situations somewhat out of reaction and to portray to the child the seriousness of the situation. So to say that all parents who properly spank their children contirbute to pornography, spouse abuse, delinquints and so forth is very extreme. A lot of other factors come in when producing children with those very serious problems. Spanking alone does not do all that. So my point is that spanking is not always abuse and abuse does not always involve spanking. Although I do agree with you that too many children are not treated right and not only is the ways of disciplining. There is a balance and spanking can be effecitive discipline if used appropriately and we should not criminalize parents raising children who are healthy and loved individuals and are disciplined by being spanked in appropriate situations. And reacting out of anger and snatching them up and giving them swats becuase they were about to run out in the road is not properly discipling them. Neither is needlessly yelling at them all day. It could have a lot of the same effects.
I'm sorry John, but I view this stand as the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction. I don't condone the abuse of a child by any adult. However, I don't see where the generation, that has been raised with less corporal punishment, is any indication that the lack of corporal punishment has produced such a bumper crop of humans. In fact, I believe that the older generations, who were raised in the "spare the rod, spoil the child" atmosphere of discipline to be more responsible and less inclined towards violence.
Well said, Bea!
you talked about codes and rules. I found this and it reflects how I feel a spanking should be administered and done. To group spanking in with abuse and claim the effects are the same are wrong and have not been factually proven.
The following are guidelines that Dr. Den Trumbull has used to advise the parents he serves in disciplining children. These guidelines should help policymakers appreciate the legitimacy of disciplinary spanking.
1. Spanking should be used selectively for clear, deliberate misbehavior, particularly that which arises from a child's persistent defiance of a parent's instruction. It should be used only when the child receives at least as much encouragement and praise for good behavior as correction for problem behavior.
2. Milder forms of discipline, such as verbal correction, time-out, and logical consequences, should be used initially, followed by spanking when noncompliance persists. Spanking has shown to be an effective method of enforcing time-out with the child who refuses to comply.
3. Only a parent (or in exceptional situations, someone else who has an intimate relationship of authority with the child) should administer a spanking.
4. Spanking should not be administered on impulse or when a parent is out of control. A spanking should always be motivated by love for the purpose of teaching and correcting, never for revenge.
5. Spanking is inappropriate before 15 months of age and is usually not necessary until after 18 months. It should be less necessary after 6 years, and rarely, if ever, used after 10 years of age.
6. After 10 months of age, one slap to the hand of a stubborn crawler or toddler may be necessary to stop serious misbehavior when distraction and removal have failed. This is particularly the case when the forbidden object is immovable and dangerous, such as a hot oven door or an electrical outlet.
7. Spanking should always be a planned action, not a reaction, by the parent and should follow a deliberate procedure.
The child should be forewarned of the spanking consequence for designated problem behaviors.
Spanking should always be administered in private (bedroom or restroom) to avoid public humiliation or embarassment.
One or two spanks should be administered to the buttocks. This is followed by embracing the child and calmly reviewing the offense and the desired behavior in an effort to reestablish a warm relationship.
8. Spanking should leave only transient redness of the skin and should never cause physical injury.
9. If properly administered spankings are ineffective, other appropriate disciplinary responses should be tried, or the parent should seek professional help. Parents should never increase the intensity of spankings.
My friend goes into the bathroom to spank. Her ds screams bloody murder all the way to the bathroom. Smart kid.
We spank when necessary. I only remember being spanked once as a child by my Dad. I think it hurt my feelings more than it hurt my bottom. To think that my *daddy* was upset with me was heartbreaking.
We also tell our DK why they are getting a spanking before it is delivered.
my son 21 and daughter 17 are very responsible kids ... they are the kids teachers enjoy havin in their classrooms and dont back talk and can interact with other people of all ages ... i spanked my kids from the time i thought that they could understand the word NO. with this in mind like others i always reminded them why they were being spanked ... as they grew older they got less and less ... because they were taught discipline at a younger age and it became second nature to them ... not all kids can be spanked as a form of punishment ... not all kids respond in the same way ... my daughter got less spankings cuz i had to change tactics to get her attention in a different way ... so she was grounded and things taken away that was more precious and then had to write why she was being punished or an apology ... as for some parents that dont know how to spank ... my mom broke many a goody hair brushes over my behind .. i remember this very well and my dad only spanked me once ... he used a barber strap and from then on i never crossed him again ... yes his was fear put in me ... my mom she did have a mental problem later diagnosised as manic depressant at the age of like 5 4 or so ... lil late to save my behind ... theres a difference in hittin a child and disciplinin a kidand a kid knows the difference they see the anger and hear the tone of ur voice ... a kid that is treated like that will rebel and become a person that imitates that behavior ...this is my opinion
I have 3 children and yes we spank. Although the older they get, the less we spank. Simply because we have found other methods that work better. Spanking doesn't phase my kids much.
To answer your questions:
Were you spanked as a child?
Yes, sometimes in anger, most of the time not.
Do you spank?
Yes
Why or why not?
Because I feel that there are some things that a child does that you have to make very clear they can not do that again. Running towards/into a road, playing with matches, things like that.
If you were spanked did it benefit you?
I think so.
To John, you said:
Let's say you've decided to adhere to some "code" when spanking:
Only use your hand
Only so many whacks
Only for certain offenses
etc.
What happens if you spank the child and he/she doesn't change their behavior?
Well then I find a different punishment. This has happened in our house. My oldest son is never phased by spankings. He would rather have a spanking than be grounded off of his computer or playstation. So when he needs to be punished, he is grounded. My youngest son is the same way. My daughter can lay in her room and play with her toes and be happy, so grounding doesn't work for her. She just doesn't care. So the simple threat of a spanking is usually enough for her.
Spank again?
Answered above.
Longer?
Answered above.
Harder?
Answered above.
Use a paddle?
Answered above.
What is the limit?
Umm....no brainer.
It is very dangerous for an adult to hit a child even on the bottom. Each year, dozens of children are hurt and killed by adults who were "only disciplining"
their children and went too far.
No doubt that there are too many children in this world who are abused. But I seriously doubt that those adults were "only disciplining" their children and just went too far. No, that was an excuse. My husband was abused as a child. His parents used the same excuse. But he lived in that day after day. And they went to far many, many, many, many times before it was caught. I bet if you knew the truth and the whole truth about what went on, then you'd know it happens almost daily in those homes. And then when the parent gets caught they say, "I don't know what happened, we've always been so close." NO not hardly.
Did you know that the following countries have OUTLAWED spanking in any form:
Sweden
Finland
Denmark
Germany
Italy
Norway
Austria
Cyprus
Croatia
Latvia
Did you know that:
In New York While riding in an elevator, one must talk to no one, and fold his hands while looking toward the door.
In Denmark when driving, you must have someone in front of your car with a flag to warn horse drawn carriages that a motorcar is coming.
In Norway licenses must be bought in order to own television sets, and even VCRs.
My point? There are "Dumb Laws" everywhere.
I don't think any parent in the world would admit to abusing their kids.
Must be the invisible man abusing the kids.
Yep, Feona, I agree.
Almost universally when a person is accused of child abuse for spanking they defend themselves by saying that they were spanked and they turned out just fine. They use the fact that they were hit to justify hitting their kids. Their parents may have been kind and conscienious when applying their spanking, but that doesn't gaurantee that those same kids will have that same good judgement. It will gaurantee that those people will have a build in excuse.
I honestly believe that if we could stop all spanking for two generations we could dramatically cut 'spontaneous' child abuse. That abuse that comes from taking normal physical punishment too far out of anger.
If you never hit, then you never hit too hard, and no child will ever end up at the hospital or worse because they were 'just being spanked'. It's gotta stop somewhere.
I think there are some people who should never spank their kids, they can't handle it. I also think there are some people who shouldn't be allowed to drive with kids in their cars, heck some of what I see is at least child endangerment. I grew up where we were spanked at school, am I emotionally damaged...don't think so. Do I spank, I have. I think as parents it is important to teach our children fear of somethings, fear of doing the wrong thing, fear of drugs and yes fear of mom at times. I don't spank to teach them that...heck I yell..lol! I spanked my toddlers one swat on the but. If that punishment didn't work, then we moved on to something else. I do think it is way too easy to get out of control. But yes we have learned things like car seats and lead paint and we do something about it. But we have also learned just how bad smoke and second hand smoke is, yet they let people smoke at the zoo, at the hospital. Think of all of the children that you know that have breathing problems, asthma, croup etc, I have more than once had to request a table, not just in the no smoking section, but as far from that section so my asthmatic didn't get hospitalized. You think that people who have children like this would stop smoking? I think if you have kids and smoke you should be punished...it isn't good for them, it isn't good for you, it is a bad addictive habit...stop it. But this is america, where we pick our high horses to get on and find literature to base that opinion on, and then ignore other things that we decide are less important. I certainly could care less about who spanks and who doesn't then who is smoking in my clean air! Yes people abuse their kids in all sorts of ways, sometimes kids just get hurt, sometimes we were neglectful, sometimes careless. I think the biggest lesson we as a nation need to learn is tolerance, we need to use our common sense and think about what we are doing to our kids, is it right for them, for their personality? It is mean to mean or is their a real point. Why did I spank my toddlers, because nothing got their attention faster. I honestly don't spank as a punishment for, you did this, you get a spanking, I am a, stop and pop kind of mom...but you know what I never had to do that more than once. I did occasionally say, do I need to spank you? That is usually all it took. I also think there are other methods to teaching our kids discipline, but time outs don't work for everyone. My daughter for example, would just assume sit in time out and ignore the world...this is not punishment. We learned very early on for her she gets one of two punishments, one is no books, they are mine for the day or week, the second, you get to be with mom all day and help...LOL. That really brings the fear of mom to her. I look back at my raising and certainly my parents screwed up some, but they did a lot of things right. I never used drugs, could of, touched them, rolled it, but never smoked it...why not..FEAR...my dad might kill me...or worse hate me for ever. I had respect for them and when I was too cool and young to respect them at least I was scared of them. So I think we need to balance out what we do adn how we do it and teach our kids in whatever way works to being respectable adults.
Good point Kaye, i especially agree on the smoking issue!! I cant stand people who smoke!! IMO, id rather spank my child rather than smoke right in front of them. May as well give them a promise to get cancer, asthma etc. Its just plain out careless and rude!!
Hubby is a very avid non-smoker, since his dad smoked a pipe all through his childhood and wouldn't put it out, even when hubby was wheezing from an asthma attack! Fortunately, when my kids were little Ralph quit smoking, but I think he smoked long enough for it to take quite a toll on his body.
I see elderly people at the clinic who are in much better shape than Gary's dad was at the end of his life. I'm sure all the smoking didn't help with all the pneumonia he had at the end of his life, either.
I will admit I tried smoking, but I coughed so much, I couldn't see the point of it and never did it again.
Ladies, while I don't agree with smoking I think we need to be careful about making generalizations and sweeping statements that some might construe as a personal attack and in some cases rightfully so.
~and yes I was wearing my mod hat with this message~
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