Questions about religions....
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Questions about religions....
Ok, since there was a topic asking what religion you are, I'm starting this one to see if I can get answers to questions I struggle with. For those who believe in God, Jesus, Adam, and Eve... do you believe in evolution? It seems impossible to. Also, considering what we know from scientific findings, where are the dinosaurs in the Bible? We know they existed. That question has always bothered me, even though it seems like a dumb one. And Jewish people don't believe Jesus has come yet right? (I know next to nothing about Judaism.) I understand Pagan religions fairly well, which is odd, because I'm a very practical person. It just seems to me there are too many things in the Bible that go against things we know from findings. And the things about walking on water, changing water to wine, and other miracles doesn't sit right with me. I know Christians believe that it is possible, because he was our Lord, but I'm definatly one of those "show me and I'll believe" people. And all the different interpretations of the Bible, through the different churches baffle me. And what do the Muslims believe? Why are they all fighting over this Holy Land? (It is the Muslims fighting over it right?) As you can tell I have way more questions than answers about religion. I wish I was one of those people who just believed, whole-heartedly, in something, without my logical side saying "That doesn't make sense." I'm hoping I do not get judged for asking these questions, I just figure we have a diverse group, and it would help further my own religious understandings.
I think you can be religious AND believe in evolution. It just depends on what you figure a "day" is. If God made the world in 7 days, maybe His days are a million Earth years. Why would God's day be one revolution of the Earth, like ours? Why wouldn't it be something bigger?
I've got a lot of questions, too. I'm Christian, but a lot of stuff about Christianity is hard to understand. That Jesus died on the cross for our sins is one of those things. Even as a kid I had a hard time with that.
You're right, Jewish people don't believe Jesus is the son of God. They use the same bible as Christians, but only the first testament, with Adam and Eve and all that stuff. Not the new testament that is about Jesus.
The problem with the Muslims and the Jews and the Holyland is that the Muslims don't use the same bible. They use the Koran, and their prophet is Mohammed, not Jesus. So when the Jews say the bible says the should get Israel because it was promised to them by God, the Muslims say, No way. We don't believe in your bible. The Palestinians are the Muslim people who live in Israel who are fighting with the Israeli Jews over the land.
Sorry if I go on an on. I am really interested in this stuff. Especially now with the war.
There was a post a while ago about a site that has you take a test to see what religion you're a match for. It's interesting, but far from conclusive. Here's the link to the test. 
http://beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
It's late here and I'm getting tired, but I'll see if I can get a chance to post later.
Interestingly, Islam DOES teach that Jesus was a prophet of God and WILL return:
from: http://www.thetruereligion.org/descentjesus.htm
"Yes, the Prophet of Allah Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend at the end of time and judge among the people with justice, following the Law of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). He will break the crosses and kill the swine. He shall put an end to the payment of the jizya. He will only accept Islam from the people. "
Muslims do not believe in the divinity of Jesus OR that he was crucified:
http://www.thetruereligion.org/jesusthoughts.htm
"One of the crucial issues which separates Islam and Christianity is their beliefs concerning the nature of Jesus - peace be upon him. The majority of Christians believe that Jesus is "Divine", i.e. they believe him to be God incarnate. Muslims, on the other hand, beleive that Jesus was only a great Prophet of God and a faultless human being."
Here is a detailed comparitive dialog:
http://www.islamworld.net/
Mark Twain once said "faith is beliving what you know ain't so". Which I finally realized is not as irreverent as it sounds. I think what Twain meant was that faith is something that is not tested by facts, but rather is what you believe without testing and without trying to reconcile it with facts. After all, if you can "prove" something, then it is not a matter of faith, but rather a fact.
So I choose to believe in a divine Creator and think of myself as a Christian, because I need and want to have faith in a higher purpose and belong to a community of faith.
From what I have read and discussed, in terms of trying to reconcile Scripture (Jewish or Christian) with science/history/fact, it is important to remember that the Bible (both testaments) was not written down on the spot like a news report, but rather was written many years after events, by human beings (almost always men), and was written to formalize and make understandable to the people of that time what their religious leaders felt they should know and believe, and to make sense of what had been legend and the memories of "my grandfather said". The Catholic Bible has books the Protestant Bible does not, because the decision makers in each faith decided those books were or weren't important. Add to that the knowledge that the original writings were in Hebrew or Aramaic, were probably edited or refined several times before being presented as "scripture", and have been translated many times by many different scholars or committees of scholars over the years, often in an effort to support a somewhat different point of view.
I don't believe the stories and words of the Bible are "inerrant" and factually accurate. So I don't have any problem reconciling, say, evolution and faith. Because I don't think the the one contradicts the other.
Islam, which is also loosely described by theologians as one of the religions "of the Book", that is, based somewhat on the original Hebrew scriptures, is somewhat different because the Koran was written by one man in one time frame. I believe it was written as a way for Muhammed to find a way for the Arab peoples of his time to move away from pantheism into a belief in one God, and to provide a unifying force for them - and it worked. It was written for a people who lived in an entirely different part of the world, with harsh deserts and contrasting fertile oases and areas.
In each case the "book" and what was taught about that faith appealed to the poor and powerless and gave them a means of feeling they too were special because they were in a relationship with an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God, a God who was the real God, as opposed to the mutiple dieties believed in by the people around them. It was a unifying force and provided a central core of belief and behavior which built a long-lasting community with shared purposes. It provided rules of behavior which most agreed were appropriate and fair, and promised a future reward (the coming of Messiah, Christian and Islamic heaven) as a goal to work toward and which can be achieved by faith and good works which evidence your faith. And for each faith, some of the important features of that faith were developed in response to the conditions of the time and place.
I have watched part of the Public Television series on the early days and growth of Christianity the past few weeks, and was reminded of the struggle between Paul and James over whether gentile converts to this new branch of Judaism (which is what it was at that time) should have to meet all the requirements of being converted to Judaism (i.e., circumcision, keeping the food laws), which earlier converts to Judaism had to do. Paul won, people did not have to accept the often unappealing requirements, and it was easier to convert and be accepted. But it made the infant Christian faith even more different from main-stream Judaism, so that it shortly spun off and became a separate faith but drew on the same roots and the same belief in a Messiah sent by God - one group believing that Messiah had come even if he did not meet all of the historically believed requirements (i.e., only he was resurrected, not all believers, which was one of the expected events when Messiah came, and the kings - Roman empire - was not overturned.) If Paul had not prevailed, who knows whether what we call Christianity would have become the powerful force it became, one which pretty much changed the Western World.
And after all that analysis, I do have faith - without proof and without facts, because like most people, I need to have a faith which "makes sense" of life for me.
Crystal,
I personally applaud you in your quest to figure out what you believe. I think that there are way too many people of all faiths who are that faith "just because"--either they were raised that way, they liked the traditions, that church was closest to their home, etc. without really knowing what they believe. I am personally not well-versed in Muslim beliefs, so I'll leave that topic alone. However, I may see if my DH wants to post on that later. As a seminary graduate and minister (who can read original biblical texts in Greek and Hebrew) he can probably more thoroughly address some of the extraneous issues.
As I posted on the other topic, I was raised very sporadically in church. My brother, who is 6 years younger, had even less church exposure because as time went by my parents attended less frequently that ever. My brother got married 2 years and converted to Catholicism b/c his fiancee was Catholic. They subsequently divorced, he has realized that catholicism is not for him, and we have had some deep spiritual discussions in the past year. He is on the same quest you are and has similar questions and we have had some great (read: nonjudgmental, loving) discussions on the subject of faith and in particular why I believe what I believe. He is drawn to Christianity, but has difficult accepting some parts of it..similar to where you are right now. So, for starters I would like to recommend 3 books: "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Jesus" by Lee Strobel. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310234697/qid=1050677439/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-8641379-9463847?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Lee was a former atheist and legal reporter for some big newspaper whose name excapes me at the moment. He set about trying to prove (as a lawyer) that Christianity just didn't jibe and in the process became a Christian. Check out the link because it shows you what type of really tough questions he tackles and it is easy reading. Now, a little more cerebral but enjoyable reading is "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. He was a renowned literature professor at Oxford, but also a great Christian apologist who wrote many texts on Christian thought and belief. The book starts out very philosophical, but it does get easier to read about 1/3 of the way through. You probably know C.S. Lewis best as the author of "The Chronicles of Narnia" (i.e., "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe").
Whew! This is gonnna be a long post, so bear with me. First of all, I do believe in the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, however, I understand and respect if you don't, so I won't use the Bible "too" much to back up what I say. However, the reason that I believe the Bible is the fact that it has stood the test of time and that the Bible proves itself over and over. For example, the prophecies in the Old Testament (i.e., the birth of Jesus, hie death and resurrection, the persecution of the Jews, etc.) have been largely scientifically/historically documented (according to other historical documents of the time and archaelogical research) as to the time that they were written such as XXX B.C. The life and time of Jesus has also been reliably documented as such. Now, the fact that those prophesies written soooo many years in advance could be so specifically fulfilled years later is mind-blowing to me. Just for example, in the book of Micah it was prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Bethlehem was a nothing-little-hick town, so quite a shocking prophecy. It would have made much more sense for the Jewish Messiah to have been born in a great political town such as Jerusalem, but he wasn't. And all because of the reason that Mary's body suddenly went into labor while going to her husband's birthplace for the census. Some may call that coincidence, but I think otherwise. As far as the Bible being written by men..indeed it was. There are several theories on how we got the Bible, but I think it is awesome that God chose men and their distinct personalities to write it. Just look at the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) which are essentially the same story told over and over, but from different viewpoints. They were all eyewitnesses to Christ's ministry, but all tell the story slightly differently, the same as witnesses to a car wreck would recount different POV. For example, Luke was a doctor and he goes into much more detail of Mary's pregnancy and the birth of Jesus than the other gospels.
As for dinosaurs in the Bible (and that is not a dumb question), no they aren't mentioned, but neither are cats, other than lions. That doesn't mean they didn't exist, just not relevant to the essence of the Bible. As for evolution, that is not an essential Biblical concept. You can still believe in evolution and be a Christian. In fact, some of dh's profs at seminary believe that the garden of Eden was a parable and not an actual event. I chose to take it literally and I do believe wholeheartedly in creationism. However, I also believe that we do "evolve" in the sense that pasts of out anatomy change over time. For example, we may all have been much hairier in the past when we needed that hair for warmth. Maybe in a few hundred more years we won't have an appendix because it doesn't serve a function, but perhaps it used to??? What are some of the other things in the Bible that do against other findings that you mentioned?
Now as far as the miracles...again, I do believe that those happened as well. At this point it becomes a total faith issue or as the Bible would say faith is "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." I did not see or experience these miracles, although I have experienced others, but from the power of Christ that I have known in my life I can understand how they can happen. I also wanted to clarify something from Ginny's post that separates Christianity from other world religions. Christianity is the only religion based soley on faith and belief. Other religions rely on "good works" and "following rules" to attain whatever it is they attain. Christianity states that we are saved by faith (i.e., belief) through grace (i.e., unmerited favor, getting something we don't deserve such as we are all sinners who have broken fellowship with God but because He loves us He chooses to forgive and offer eternal life) and that good works don't save because if they did then we could all boast about what we did to earn salvation (see Ephesians 2: 8,9) Now if we are Christians, then good works should follow, but they aren't an essential component to salvation...nor is baptism, communion, confirmation, or any other church rituals. The Bible is abundantly clear that understanding that we are sinners, Christ was divine and without sin, Jesus died for our sins and rose again, and that He offers forgiveness is all we need to be Christians. It's all a matter of a simple prayer.
As I know this is exceedingly long, I wanted to stress that I don't profess to know all of the answers and that I occasionally have doubts too. However, as a general rule, I have experienced the overwhelming work of God in my life and in particular what Paul referred to as "the peace which surpasses all understanding." I experience this most significantly during a time when I found out my father was having an affair and my parents separated. In the midst of the biggest turmoil of my life I had a supernatural and indescribable peace that came for trusting in God. I have thought on your other posts about your depression how I would long for you to have that as well.
Ii want to conclude with a couple more thoughts. In the book, "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" (which is a picture of Christianity with Aslan, the lion, being a Christ-figure), one of the children askes about Aslan, "Is he safe?" The reply is, "No, he is not safe, but he is good." That really says alot. God is not safe in that He will radically turn your life upside-down , but He is very good. And one final C.S. Lewis quote (my favorite) " It would seem that our Lord finds our desires, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased." (from "The Weight of Glory") That sums it all up for me. God wants to best for us and we settle for so much less. In my brother's spiritual search he keeps asking me "If I become a Christian can I do x, y, or z" like drink, have premarital sex, etc. Christianity is so much NOT about rules. It is simply about loving God and wanting to please Him. Unfortunately, too many Christians are still living under some sort of legalistic rule-based mindset and haven't discovered the true freedom.
Wow! MOre than you probably ever asked for, but I've always been long-winded. If you made it through this, then kudos to you--LOL
Ok, sorry, I skimmed through! Ginny, your first paragraph was perfect! Also "Wtihtout proof, without facts." Pam, I also loved your last paragraph--not so much about rules!
Crystal, for me, it's just about Faith. Plain and simple. It's about believing in something greater than myself. It's about turning my sorrows over, it's about asking for strength when I need it. It's about always having someone to lean on when friends aren't around. It's about unconditional love. It's more of a feeling for me.
We are all so different, I think no matter what we will see things a little different. So, for me, it's not about debating if there is a God, or if Jesus has risen or Darwinism. It's about prayer and how I feel when I do it. I have been in a room full of people praying and it is more powerful than anything on this earth! I have prayed alone with my DH and it's more powerful than any physical bond. I would never trade my man with Faith for anything! So, if you like to call it positive energy, that doesn't bother me either. For me, it works and it gives me strength. It gives me great hope to think that someone wants the best for me and that Jesus loves me. My hope is that everyone has something to believe in, no matter what we call it.
First off, thank you for all your answers. I did indeed read your post, Pam. One thing I will say is you mention Christians don't believe you get to Heaven by good works. Methodist Christians do. I was raised in that church and had never heard of being "saved" by asking Jesus to be your Lord and forgive your sins until I went to a Baptist church. And I mean no offense to Catholics when I say this, but from what many of my Catholic friends, and my DH tell me, they feel giving to the Church is a very important part of getting to Heaven. Financially giving that is, which is one of the things I dislike about the Catholic church. And as I said in my original post, I wish I could believe in something without question... but to me that would feel like a blind following, which feels wrong to me. Ok, I had to change a diaper during this, and lost my train of thought. LOL. One thing I do know is the war over the "Holy Land" (which may not even be the exact location, who knows what the world looked like so long ago) is wrong. Killing in the name of ANY god is misguided. I cannot imagine any God would condone that, and that is worrisome to me, especially as my DH sits over in the Middle East fighting this war. I think that is sheer insanity! Anyway, I will have to check out those books, I also hear the "Left Behind" series is interesting. Thanks again for your honest answers!!
Crystal, any organized religion needs financial support. I understand what you are saying, and maybe some people do believe that the more they give the better their chances of being saved, but no church today (and, I think, no religion today) preaches that. And I understand because for quite a while one of my quarrels with organized religion was what seemed to be a constant plea for money. (And no, even though I was raised in the Lutheran Church, I don't think "indulgences", i.e. paying for a certain amount of forgiveness for sins, comes into it. That was one of the things Martin Luther preached against, but that was history, the Church has learned much and changed much since then, so it is not relevant.)
But, when I became involved with a church, I began to realize that churches, like any other entity, have to pay heat and electric bills, salaries, staff benefits, maintenance (and can you imagine what it costs to heat one of those huge gothic churches, which mine is, even for three hours on a Sunday morning for worship and enough to keep the organ from deteriorating the rest of the week!). My church gives a large sum annually to the SE Penna. United Methodist Conference, the supervisory body for our area, which uses it to pay the salaries of the bishop and her staff, who provide teaching and other resources for local congregations, salary subsidies for pastors of churches which cannot afford a full-time pastor's salary and benefits, support for local Methodist programs such as nursing home, retirement home, foster children programs, food cupboards and soup kitchens, etc. We also give a large sum annually to the national Methodist Church, which uses it for staff and overhead expenses and a variety of charitable and service programs in the U.S. and throughout the world.
Once I began to realize what the money is used for, I understood why churches ask for money, and I don't mind giving as much as I can afford.
As you can see from my post above and in the other thread about religious identity, I personally don't believe in or have an unquestioning faith. For me, it is not necessary. For others, it is. Which is fine, either way, and I would not for a moment consider trying to persuade someone to believe or disbelieve as I do - I think it would be disrespectful of the person and that person's faith and I have too much respect for faith to want to do that.
As for your other questions, if you email me we can talk about this, but I think if I post more here I'd be going over the line if I haven't already.
A lot of my religion is based around faith. Sometimes it is hard to believe in something that you can't see. I really believe that with prayer and faith that you can receive a testimony of what you are looking for.
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he did die on the cross for us. I also believe that if we do sin (which we all do) that we should repent of it. I believe that once we have gone through the proper repentance process that God will remember our sins no more.
In our church we pay a tithe. It is 10% of all income. We also have something that we call a fast offering. It is optional, but encouraged. We fast on the first Sunday of each month. (usually breakfast and lunch) then take the money that we would have used for food for those meals and pay it as a fast offering. Our tithes and fast offerings go to building new churches and temples etc. Our church leaders (bishops, regional presidents etc.) are not paid anything for their services.
I think that it's great that you are asking everyone questions, and I think that if any judgement is made because of that, that it will be a good one! Asking is the only way to learn stuff
Ginny~
I did not mean to say people should not give to their church. I realize too that it costs money to run a facility. I would put money in the offering basket when I went to church. I attended Sunday school most of my childhood, and assisted teaching the toddler class when my sister was in it. I love all of the people from my childhood church, one of the Sunday school teachers in my sister and brother's daycare. I simply knew when I was younger the Catholic church in my town was extremely pushy about donations. My DH had the same experience with his church. I do not mean to say ALL Catholic churches are money hungry, but many things I've seen have left a bad taste in my mouth about that particular sect. And Amy, who I am discussing this with right now, said the reasoning behind the Catholic's requiring donation is "sowing your seed". And she said that some Catholics tell you that you're going to hell if you do not donate. That is what I was referring to. Ginny, perhaps when I am at home we can discuss this further through email.
I think these responses are great. On the tithing issue. I think fundamentally there are very few Christian churches that will say you must tithe to go the heaven; however, individual churches do push more heavenly, that you will be "good stewards", "not equal gifts (of $), but equal sacrifices". As a Christian, your goal is to have eternal life, but having Him in your life should make you behave more Christlike and do things that are pleasing to God. You don't have to, but you should WANT to. Why do I have faith, I guess even through the really tough times in my life I have had the peace of knowing God is with me. I have had the unfortune/gift of knowing someone dying, to hear her last words and to know what she saw on the other side. For me that was a defining moment. Sure at times I think, wow what a scam this could be, I put my all, my time, my money, my faith and what if I am wrong? Well I guess if I am wrong, then my peace on earth has been worth it. Hmmm miracles, I haven't seen anyone walk on water, but I have seen babies be born. I have personally lived through some medical issues that even the doctors have said, WOW, we can't explain that. Dinosaurs, there are several Christian theories on this, I am not sure which I believe, but I can give you a couple. One theory is just that they weren't mentioned, some people believe that there is a time gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and that is the time of the dinosaurs. However, the more interesting one to me is that dinosaurs did live before Noah and the flood killed out the big dinos. (i believe in Jonah a behometh mentioned is thought to be a dino) Now this would mean that dinos lived on the earth the same time as man and where is the geoligic proof to support this. Well actually there have been bones found together, but because we have decided that these events didn't occur together they are timed different. We carbon date bones, but actually with things as old as dinos we add to that number, interesting science I think. I have just recently been doing some reading on this. Another theory is that dinos never did exist and that their remains were just part of the earth God created, for entertainment purposes, or whatever. I think that is just one of those questions I get the answers to when I go to heaven. As far as evolution, it is proventhat animals evolve and change, but the whole from a monkey to a man thing I don't believe. They have never scientifically proven that, they just have a theory and we all know that once there was a theory that the world was flat *S* Also I wonder if they have really thought about the quality of sample they have. I mean think about some of our very special needs children, with odd shaped heads and bone, what if that is what they found? I just don't know. I think asking questions and reading is the best way to find your faith. For me faith is knowing that this works for me on so many levels. I don't pretend to know the answers and honestly I have quit looking so much, instead I have been spending my time developing that personal relation with God, I read my Bible regularly, I pray daily and attend church often. I also believe that none of us have it all right. In Revelation Paul mentions that he saw the multitudes. When that is directly transleted from original text that is a large number, one bigger than any one religion out there. So I have to think that we all do the best we can and in the end God says you had faith in my Son and that is all you needed.
I normally do not like discussing my religious beliefs with a large group of people. I am normally the last to think about entering in a religious debate or conversation. But I would like to contribute my personal beliefs. These beliefs stem from college classes dealing with world religions, from my personal experience with Catholicism, and from various discussions I've had about religion and spirituality with random people in my life.
I do not commit myself to a particular religion because I feel that in doing this, I would be limiting myself. I accept that I do not have all the answers, nor that I ever will in this lifetime. And that is okay with me. I believe in something higher, and I call this God. I firmly believe and have faith in God. As for Jesus, I believe that this great man could have very well existed. And if so, he was probably a very great man, who probably did die on the cross for his strong beliefs. I believe he is a prophet, but not the only prophet. I cannot firmly believe in the immaculate conception, the concept of Adam and Eve, or the various miracles that some claim to be true. I do not deny these events, I just cannot say that I truly believe in them. I cannot have faith in the above, but I CAN have faith in God. And I know that I am not "all-knowing" and never will be as a human. And I believe that there is a very good reason for this. To me, the human form is not the beginning and the end, there is more to come. Yet as humans, we have a very important responsibility to live righteous lives. I believe this life is a test, designed for a larger purpose.
I pray to God, and talk with God often. I believe that Church can foster one's relationship with God, but for me, I feel that Church may only serve to place limitations on my search for spirituality right now. I can pull several teachings from all religions that I feel are correct. However, I can pull several that I feel are not. Therefore, I prefer to foster my own relationship with God by internal discussions, and with limited discussions with close friends and family. I believe that if I leave myself open to many discussions, faiths, etc that I will come to know in my heart what is correct. I ask God for wisdom often, and I believe that by constantly being open to new interpretations, that I will eventually find the wisdom I am looking for.
As for my children, they are not baptized, for the reasons listed above. I will teach them as I learn more, and I will be sure to tell them that Mommy does not know everything, and that is okay. But that Mommy does know that there exists a greater being called God who loves each and every one of us unconditionally. That I know for sure.
Another aspect of spirituality that I believe has not been touched upon is the presumptiousness of many humans. That we could be the center of the universe is absurd. That we are greater than the beasts created before us is foolish. I strongly believe that there are several "universes" and several life forms, many that we will NEVER know about. And that we all have a purpose in a greater plan, and THAT is what makes us special. We all do have a purpose, we all do have a God, the same God. Maybe we just all view God a little differently. And isn't that okay too? Isn't one's interpretation of something nurtured by their environment, how they grew up, or how they were raised? So, isn't it natural, and OKAY, that we all "believe" a little differently? I think so. Therefore I can never judge ones interpretation of God, but I can stress that by being close-minded, one is placing limits on what should be a constant growing in faith.
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