A Positive Story About Immigration
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): A Positive Story About Immigration
I am posting this here, just in case it brings on controversial conversation.
There is a lot discussed today about immigration, "foreigners", controlling of the borders, etc. Some of it I agree with; for instance, I heard recently that some Middle Eastern people tried to enter the U.S. through the Mexican border, using the same methodology that some Mexican people use, i.e. running into the U.S. under cover of darkness. Fortunately, they were intercepted because they did NOT have the best interests of the U.S. in mind.
However, as we speak, there are three young men on my roof, re-shingling it. They are all in their early to mid twenties. One is from Hondouras and the other two are from Ecuador. I contracted the same company who did my vinyl siding twenty years ago. The company is owned by a local man who happens to be Italian. Apparently, he is now sub-contracting his work to other tradesmen in the area, which he did not do twenty years ago. He did the work himself. However, he assured me that he will always be around to fix anything that goes wrong. He made good on that promise when we had an issue with the aluminum awning that he installed. It got damamged by snow, and six years later, he replaced it with a brand new one, free of charge.
He had told me two weeks ago that they would start the job in a couple weeks. Yesterday, Shawn called me at work to tell me that "three Mexican guys" were putting tarps all around our house. When I got home from work, the front half of the roof had been stripped, and re-shingled, and ALL of the mess cleaned up. Not one nail or piece of old shingle to be found.
Early this morning, the same guys showed up very early, stripped the roof on the back of the house, put all of the debris in a dumpster on wheels, and are now in the process of laying the tar paper and some other type of material, and starting to install the shingles. They told me that they will be all done by sunset, ridge vent and all.
I left to go the bank this morning and brought back iced coffee and donuts for them. They haven't even stopped to have a donut, or even lunch. Only once, did one ask me for some cold water. It is HOT out there today, and they haven't stopped. There is no debris in my yard. I am learning Spanish from my boss (a female doctor from Peru), so I was "practicing" my Spanish on them. 
They are polite, friendly and hard working. I try to get them to "tomar una rotoro" (take a break), and they won't. One of them even told me that today is his "cumpleanos" (birthday).
When Shawn worked at our local movie theater, I would pick him up at midnight. There would be a group of Hispanic young men and women who would arrive and work all night, cleaning the theatre (and it is spotless).
I get angry when I hear some of the radio pundits and even my own 87 year old mother, who talk about the "browning of America", and how there is a great "conspiracy" to "take our jobs". The people that I have seen work harder than any "American" I know. I work in a hospital building/medical center, and there are a group of Hispanic ladies that clean. They never stop either. A lot of these folks take jobs that the "gringo" thinks he/she is too good for. They are just happy to be here, and to make the American dream happen for them, like it did for all of our ancestors.
We need to remember that God loves us all, and Scripture says that He is "no respecter of persons", which means that we are all the same in His eyes.
I wish that some of the critics would get out in the real world and see how things really are before they complain and criticize.
There are a lot of Hispanic people working on dairy farms around here! I'm thinking they work pretty hard, too. I know the Spanish interpreter lady, at the clinic works VERY hard, with all the Spanish people who come into the clinic, because the other one who shares the duties with her, recently had surgery and hasn't come back to work yet.
I'm picking up Spanish, a word here and a word there, from when she comes in to interpret. She is more than willing to teach me! LOL! She told me how to say Happy Birthday in Spanish, because I noticed that it was this girl's birthday, that day. (Feliz Cumpleaños) She smiled, when I said it in Spanish, even if it wasn't very well!
Oh yeah, and I know how to ask if an injury happened at work. One of the interpreters wrote it down for me, so I could remember. (Paso en el trabajo.) One day, it was before 8am, and the interpreters weren't there yet and none of us knew how to say it!
I am not prejudiced against Hispanics. I agree that many Hispanic workers are very honest hard workers. They could teach some Americans a thing or two about the work ethic.
However, what I don't appreciate is the fact that perfectly legal residents and citizens of this country can't find jobs in some areas because the work is being done by people who are here illegally. That's just plain not fair. It is also most likely why some people are so resentful of the illegal Hispanic population.
I live in Canada, so I can only comment on what goes on here. Lisa, do you mean that people who come across the border illegally are taking the jobs of people who are trained to do certain jobs? I don't think you're saying that, but just asking, because you said some people can't find work because of them. I know that in my small town, we have a ton of people here from Mexico every summer to do farm labour. I know that when my husband was temporarily unemployed, he sure wasn't about to go into the fields to pick cucumbers! He made more on unemployment than he would have working on a farm. I know that he didn't have a problem finding a job in his field because someone from Mexico, or anywhere else, had been hired illegally. Do you think that could be the case there, in many instances? Are all of the people who are unemployed willing to take whatever job is out there, no matter what it is? Just curious, because I know they're not around here.
Ditto Lisa. Same situation here. HOWEVER - to be fair, and to throw another spin on it - I think the Hispanics *might* be getting a lower wage than the locals, though I very well could be wrong. I can't give accurate/fair information or comparisons here, in this area, there are a lot of lazy people who want everything handed to them.
We had some awful experiences with *illegals* when we were having the work done on our house. There are a number of specific locations where they all gather early in the morning, and with all the construction still being done to rebuild homes after Katrina, the contractors know where they are and pick up however many they need for the day. Our particular contractor, who we were paying hourly rates to (HUGE mistake!) was picking up *unskilled* guys and paying them a small fraction of what he was charging us AND they screwed a lot of stuff up, which we then had to pay another contractor to correct. THAT, I have a problem with.
I really have a huge mixed bag of feelings about all of this. There are starving, homeless, unemployed Americans all around us and *illegals* are coming in and taking the jobs. But again, in fairness, many of them are doing jobs that the Americans apparently feel are beneath them - the hot, dirty, back breaking, long hours type stuff. And it is true, they DO have a better work ethic. Which, sadly, says a lot about our people.
I think the jobs that illegal immigrants are doing are both skilled and unskilled, but are not necessarily jobs that require professional training.
And Americans WOULD do the hard laborious work that they are doing, but they are not taking the work because they require higher compensation for their effort. Since illegal immigrants will work for such low wages, there is no incentive for employers to offer more.
I do agree that they are very hard workers and will even go as far as to say I agree that they are likely paid less than a "legal" citizen to do the same job. However, it still doesn't make it right. People in this country fought long and hard for good work treatment. No one should be expected to work all day with no break and no lunch. Honestly to me, the way they are working sounds much like slave treatment and I wouldn't be happy about that if that is how they were working at my home. They should be paid a good salary, allowed breaks and lunch etc. But they don't and they are cheap labor and that takes away jobs from american citizens. And all of that is even after the fact that I am assuming they are not legal citizens and shouldn't be here anyway.
I did try, on several occassions,to get them to stop and have a cold drink and to eat some lunch. They wouldn't stop. I know that they wanted to get finished to enjoy the rest of their weekend, and I don't blame them. We spoke with the sub-contractor for whom they work, and he SAYS that they are his usual crew, and work for him on all jobs, and not "day labourers". They drove up in a nice, late model Ford F-350 pick up, that supposedly belonged to ONE of the guys. Their boss assures me that they are resident aliens, with "green cards", and not illegal.
Marcia, I couldn't agree with you more! Americans (and maybe Canadians) only have themselves to blame if they cannot find work. The ladies that I see working in the hospital where I work are hospital employees, and therefore union workers, with the same rights and protections of all of the hospital workers, yet I don't see any "Anglo" people doing their job. They clean some pretty nasty stuff (whatever came be produced by the human body), and they always seem to be in a hurry. There is nothing stopping an "American" from applying for the same work.
Karen, to be sure, some contractors do go to where day labourers congregate, such as outside of Home Depot and Lowe's, and take some of these folks on for the day, and pay them under the table. But, it is usually for the back breaking work, like stripping shingles, or ripping up carpeting. Maybe it isn't right, but what can a contractor do if he can't find "Americans" to do the work? An HONEST cntractor will not let them do work that they are not skilled for (that would go for ANY worker), and hopefully, will pay them a fair wage. I know that the man that we contracted with originally, to do our roof, said yesterday that he sub-contracts because he has trouble finding RELIABLE workers in the LOCAL labour force. That didn't used to be the case. If the "foreigners" were NOT working, people would be complaining about that, too.
I know that there was a bad situation here a few months ago with one of our local grocery chains. My DS's work for their competitor, and found this out from their union steward. The other grocery store, that happens to also be union, was hiring "illegals" to fill some of the less desirable positions in the store (fish cleaners, janitorial work, etc.) and paying them less than union workers. It even turned out that the MANAGER of the grocery store owned an apartment house and rented to these folks, and provided van service for them to get to work. When the union workers complained to their stewards, the union bosses investigated. What the manager wanted (and what a lot of people in his position want) is a docile, timid workforce who are afraid of being reported to the INS and being deported. Therefore, they will take whatever crappy job is given to them and keep quiet. The union boss in this particular store announced that the union would represent ALL of the workers, and that the low pay and bad working conditions were to cease immediately, even if the "illegal" workers were not "card-carrying" members of the rank and file. By not doing so, it would have lowered the standards and work safety environment for ALL of the workers.
So, the next time you hear someone complain about the "foreigners", ask yourself if YOU would do their job if you were out of work, as Marcia said. Many "American" business owners are to blame, not the workers.
We have a friend in Omaha, Nebraska who owns his own masonry contracting company. They build large scale office complexes and apartment buildings. He said that he could not stay in business without the foreign workers. While his "American" employees complain about EVERYTHING, from it being too hot or too cold, or too rainy, or the job is too hard, the others will show up before dawn and work until after the sun goes down and not complain. They are happy to get out of the fields where they are LUCKY to make $5.00-$6.00 per hour, to a brick laying job making $15.00 per hour.
The next time a person from Central or South America or Mexico clears your table in a restaurant, and goes back into a steamy hot kitchen, smile at them, and say hello. They are the same as you. And, as Marcia pointed out, you'd have no produce on your table without them.
I will clarify again. I have no problem with foreign LEGAL workers. It is the illegal workers who take the jobs away from the legal citizens or residents of this country that I do not appreciate.
Hol, you make a wonderful case in favor of immigration. Unfortunately, some people who are against illegal immigration are said to be anti-immigration. I am not anti-immigration. Naturally, we are all descendants of immigrants, right? I think that it is wonderful that people can come here and prosper while at the same time help our nation to prosper as well.
However, when you enter any other country, it is appropriate to have respect for the laws of that country. It's no different than one of your son's friends being expected to respect the rules in your home. I do not have any use for people who willfully and knowingly break the law to get across the border and gain employment, circumvent our laws at every turn, then expect to have rights just by virtue of their presence here.
If I were that union boss, I would have turned in the manager for employing and housing illegals. By agreeing to represent them, he is also breaking the law.
It is a shame that people willfully subject themselves to shameful work conditions just so that they won't be sent back to their own country. Seems akin to voluntary slavery.
One thing I noticed in a couple posts was unions. It sounds like there are a lot more union labor in Canada. That could be one big difference, because the crappy, dirty jobs here often involve no protection or benefits, and low wages. No American wants to scrub toilets for minimum wage and no benefits, they would have to work 4 jobs to survive! I don't know where the blame falls on that one, I just thought I'd throw it out there.
Ditto Lisa, I have no problem at all with legal workers or anyone else legal at all. I do have a problem with illegal workers/immigrants though. I must follow the laws of this country, so should they!!
Lisa, I think it's all relevant. When you are used to making a few dollars a week in your home country, a few dollars an hour here doesn't seem like slave labour...to that person.
Marcia, I see what you are saying. (I bet you meant to say that it's all "relative." )
But at some point, a person has to look at their working conditions and say, "I am better than this."
It has to come to a point where a person decides that it isn't about the money, it's about personal dignity.
Oops, yup, that's what happens when you write when half asleep. ;)
I think that when you live in third world conditions and come to Canada or the US, personal dignity is not first and foremost in your mind. Getting your family back home food on the table, a roof over their heads, and all of the other things that we are so spoiled to have all of our lives, is what's important. What dignity it brings to know that you can suddenly provide for your family!
ditto Lisa and Vicki, I have no problem with people who come here legally. I have a big problem with those who come here illegally.
and as far as produce goes, most of the farms around here, hire high school kids for the summer to pick produce, it's a sought after summer job because it pays better than minimum.
Collette, How lucky that these teens get to do this work for more than minimum wage. I'm curious to know, do they also have regular bathrooms to use? Regular breaks? Water? A regular work day? I'm quite serious. Here in California, I can remember working in the fields. It was not fun. We did not get paid anywhere near minimum wage and we did not have bathrooms, nor was water provided. Our entire family, parents and all five kids ranging in age from 11 down to about 4, would work (though us kids mainly on weekends and vacations). The younger ones would do lighter work, of course, carrying empty baskets or buckets, etc. while the older ones would do the work we were capable of doing, with the adults doing the most laborious parts.
I am glad that conditions have improved greatly since then, and that people are getting paid a lot better. I'm glad it's a sought after job where you are. I keep hoping that improvements continue.
I will say this. Working outside, picking produce, as difficult and dirty as it was, I was proud. It felt good to know that I was not only helping to put food on our table, but I was also helping others put food on theirs. The produce wasn't going to walk itself off to the grocery stores, right?
Nancy, what you say about the whole family working together is a wonderful example of modeling the work ethic, something that is lost to many of today's young people and is really what Hol was trying to say about many Hispanic workers.
Yes, they have regular bathroom breaks and plenty of water.
Just curious, is your family legal? I can't imagine a 4yr old picking crops.
It isn't uncommon to see a 4 year old in the barn or in the fields if that is the life they are brought up around... Not all day laborers are hispanic.. I have a friend who grew up with a father that took them from town to town picking crops all summer long and they were a caucasian family... There is a lady at my church, that is also caucasian, whose father took them around in a station wagon picking crops.. They would sleep out on a mattress under the stars every night, unless it rained and she loved it... I spent three years in California, I saw the crops being brought in and I just had to add my two cents because like I said, not all day laborers/field pickers are hispanic..
Growing up in California, I had the opportunity to befriend many hispanics, and one in particular was a close friend. She had a big family, and they were all close. They worked together, as well. In this family, the young ones were included, but more to have them with the family than to actually do the work. They seemed happiest working or playing, together. I always enjoyed being with her family. They left quite an impression on me.
Hol, we recently had two Hispanic men come out to our house to top off some trees. They were brothers who were self employed and legal. They arrived early to start the job and finished without a break, as well. Like you, I kept worrying! Lara and I brought cold water out to them twice. Not only did they do an excellent job on the trees, they cleaned up and even raked all the leaves that the trimming brought down. We hope to get them here again next time we need our trees trimmed.
All the Hispanics here are either cleaning ladies or landscapers. Most of the do work well, and probably get paid less than Americans might, but I think they are just happy to be here with a job.
My request is that they learn to speak ENGLISH. It bothers me that for hundreds of years the majority of people in America spoke English and now they are talking about making Spanish an official language here. No, sorry. I don't like it. If I went to Italy, I would not expect them to learn English, I would learn Italian. If I went to Russia, I would not get upset if they didn't undertand my english, I would learn Russian. Etc. These people need to learn English.
Btw, my in-laws are from Italy, they came over 30 years ago from Italy. My father in law speaks English well, but my MIL still doesn't understand a lot of English and is hard to understand at times. A lot of times I end up sitting at the dinner table while my in-laws and dh while they have conversation in Italian and I just sit there clueless. I have tried to learn Italian. I even took a class in Italian. But I do think it's so rude for them to do that when I'm sitting there having no clue what they are saying.
I truly think that if people want to move to America, they need to learn our language.
Thank you, Lisa. I can say that our family is a hardworking bunch, thanks to my parents.
Collette, yes, my family is legal. All the kids were born in CA, my stepdad is from Texas, as is my bio dad. My mom did come over illegally when she was sixteen, was a legal resident by about 19 or so. Learned English about 10 years after that by forbidding English to be spoken in the house. (It's cute to hear my mom speak with her accent and saying these huge words.) The only negative about the way she learned English was that by forbidding Spanish in the home, my five younger siblings don't speak it well, nor do they like to speak it. They understand it just fine. Oh, and they speak it well enough when they are mad, lol.
Bellajoe, we have only been a country for a couple hundred years, and no, not everyone spoke English.
As far as your Italian in-laws, you might have to delve deeper into their culture to understand why they would speak Italian and not English at the dinner table.
Just curious, how many classes did you take to learn Italian?
BTW, my FIL speaks farsi. When we go their get-togethers and have the entire Persian family (and I mean entire) they all speak farsi even though the only one who doesn't speak English well is the matriarch, Maman Bozorg (meaning great mother.) Talk about not knowing what they say! It's a far more difficult language to pick up than Italian is, linguistically speaking (and yes, I did study linguistics). Having said that, I've learned a bit of the language, enough to teach my children the terms of affection they use, their numbers from 1-10, parts of the face, and some commands. So now, my children seem to know more Farsi than their father. And I'm the one who taught them!
So my point is, I'm sure you've been around enough to pick up on some stuff. Just practice it and you will learn it. Don't be afraid to ask what something means. This is your family, and you shouldn't have to feel clueless when you are there with them.
I agree about speaking ENGLISH. Here, in Florida, you are expected to know spanish. That rubs me the wrong way. If you chose to come here, why are we supposed to adapt to you? Learn english!
I do not know why (maybe because I have dark hair) I am constantly (at least once a week) asked to translate for someone. I can't. I do not speak spanish.
LEARN THE LANGUAGE! I have absolutely nothing against anyone coming to the USA who will be a positive contribution as long as American jobs aren't threatened. However, for crying out loud, learn the language. It would never even occur to me to move to Italy or Paraguay or anywhere else in the world and expect their country to adapt to my inability to speak the native tongue. That is exactly what is happening here. There are signs in English AND Spanish everywhere! Why?? We are an ENGLISH speaking country. If you move here, plan to speak it or go home. And, please, don't rely on your CHILDREN to interpret for you because you're too lazy to learn the language yourself.
The 2 women who interpret Spanish, at the clinic where I work are VERY busy! One was out for about 3 months, because she had surgery and I think the other one was going crazy, trying to be in too many places at once! I'm always asking them stuff about Spanish and have expanded my vocabulary a little. I'm far from being fluent, although I know some of the Spanish I need to room a patient.
WOW!!!
Why do we have to assume that people are lazy because they don't speak English? My husband is hispanic, he does speak both fluent english and spanish. But, both his grandmothers did not speak fluent english. It had nothing to do with laziness!! And, I find the remark kind of insulting. I have no problem with people's opinion that they think people should learn english. However, why do we have to be judgemental and resort to name calling? One of dh's grandmothers was one of the sweetest woman I have ever know. And, it breaks my heart that someone, who doesn't even know her, could have met her and thought she was lazy because she didn't speak fluent english. It is very hard for someone, who is an adult, to come to another country and leave behind their culture. I know dh's grandparents did it to give their children, their grandchildren, etc a better life. Dh was the first person in his family to get a college degree. His grandmother was very proud. Should she have learned to speak english, maybe. And, I am fine if this is your opinion, but please don't lump people as lazy or dumb because they don't. Some just find it harder to leave their culture, and language behind when they come here. They feel it is part of who they are.
In our city, the illegal Mexicans are taking the jobs of house framers and other builders, making it hard for sub contractors who refuse to hire illegals to under-bid the sub contractors who hire them at below standard wages. My son is a business owner, who doesn't want to hire the illegals. He came up through the ranks, and prefers to have guys he knows, and who understand his directions, working for him. As a result, he is underbid time and time again, by firms who hire illegals. YES they are taking jobs from hard working Americans.
As for maintaining culture and language....sorry. I've lived abroad, and know how little latitude is given to people who don't speak the local language. It's fine for tourists. They want your money, and will bend a bit, but if you want to work or attend school in a foreign country, either learn the language or leave.
Oh...and I did want to say, that I do feel that people who want to live here do need to make it legal. Dh's grandparents did become legal citizens. I do not think it is fair to come here and take advantage of the opportunites our country gives, and not become a citizen. However, I think the main problem is the companies that are knowingly hiring illegals. If they stopped, then people would have no choice but to become legal citizens.
"However, I think the main problem is the companies that are knowingly hiring illegals".
I agree, Debbie. I've always felt this was a major part of the problem. You make a good point, if there were no jobs for people here illegally, I think we'd see more people seeking legal status.
I've worked with several spanish-speaking families through developmental therapy with their children. Keep in mind that it does take TIME to learn English. All of my families have been going to classes learning English, but definitely can't speak it well yet. It takes time, and when you are raising small children and keeping your house together, while your DH works long hours, it can't be easy to make it to class all the time. I'm just throwing that out there, from experience, regarding the learning English thing.
I don't disagree with saying that immigrants should learn to speak English, but keep in mind how hard it would be for any one of us to begin French or Spanish classes and learn to speak it fluently on top of all of our other daily commitments.
I'm just throwing that out there. And also from my experience, I would hire a Hispanic to work for me in a MINUTE over an American!! I'm so sorry, but BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE...wow. They never stop working, the house is immaculate, kids are clothed and fed, and there is always some yummy smell coming from the kitchen.
Keep in mind that I also live in a town with few Hispanics (I drive out of town to see my clients), but thousands of over-paid, completely under-educated, union, American auto workers who have about ZERO clue of what hard work is. I know because my husband is one of their "bosses" (even though they make more than he does) and other family members have been, too. It's a joke.
Isn't one of the requirements to becoming a citizen to be able to read, right and understand English? How do people become citizens without being able to then? Or is this a newer requirement?
Vicki- I have no idea what the laws are. I know that with my spanish-speaking families, only the child(ren) are able to fluently speak because they have been in school here for years. The parents have minimal English. Example, they call a translator when going to the doctor, hospital especally, and always need a friend when taking care of other family business (getting the dryer fixed, signing insurance, etc.)
Vicki, I talked to dh, and I was wrong. His grandparents were actually born here in the US, thus making them citizens. His great-grandparents came over soon after they were married. I thought it was his grandparents. He is not sure if his great-grandparents were legal. I'm not sure of the actual laws to become a citizen.
I guess to sum up what I was trying to say....I agree that anyone that works here, and wants to live here, should be a citizen. Yes, it would be great if they learned english. I guess it doesn't really bother me either way. I mean, they are really just hurting themselves if they don't. It doesn't really effect me, therefore, it doesn't bother me. I know my dh's mom speaks english really well, but she does speak spanish around spanish speaking friends, family, people, just because she feels more comfortable. She gets really embarrassed when she uses the wrong word for something. It makes her feel stupid, when in fact, she is a very smart woman.
Oh...and I will admit that this is a sensitive issue for me. With my dks being 1/2 hispanic, it really hurts when people say prejudice things around me. And, hearing things like "learn the language, or go home" or "you are too lazy to learn the language", just seem like hatefull statements to me. It just makes me cringe. It seems like we have no patience with people anymore. I was at the DMV last week, and a woman was getting her ID card. She was trying very hard to speak english, and use the proper words. The woman helping her got really ugly with her, and really did treat her like she was dumb. I, with my little spanish, was able to step in and help her. I felt so sorry for this woman, she seemed very humiliated.
Just because other countries have no patience with people who don't speak their language, or struggle with it, why do we have to be this way?? I thought the United States was suppose to be the melting pot of the world.
And to be honest, this probably wouldn't be such a sore subject for me if I was not married to my dh. I know what he faced growing up. I know the stuggles of my in-laws. So having such a close relationship with them, and then hearing some of the things I hear(which when you lump people together, includes them) it really hurts.
LOL...maybe I should take the test. Just noticed I should have typed "write" not right. LOL
Enchens, I have learned words here and there, enough to usually get the gist of what they are talking about. I think I actually know more than I realize! I just don't speak italian at all but that's o.k .because they can understand me. I have learned to just stop them and say "what are you all talking about?" and then dh explains. They have also taught me certain words.
FIL teaches the kids the parts of the face in Italian and we all know how to say Happy Easter and Merry Christmas in Italian.
It starts to bug me when they do sit there and have a whole conversation while I sit there clueless. I usually give dh a look like "what the heck is going on?" and then he stops and explains and so does FIL and then they usually continue the conversation in English. Now that I think about it, they probably don't realize they are leaving me out, it's just natural to them of course.
I have not read all of the posts on this subject, but this one jumped out and I just have to respond:
LEARN THE LANGUAGE! I have absolutely nothing against anyone coming to the USA who will be a positive contribution as long as American jobs aren't threatened. However, for crying out loud, learn the language. It would never even occur to me to move to Italy or Paraguay or anywhere else in the world and expect their country to adapt to my inability to speak the native tongue. That is exactly what is happening here. There are signs in English AND Spanish everywhere! Why?? We are an ENGLISH speaking country. If you move here, plan to speak it or go home. And, please, don't rely on your CHILDREN to interpret for you because you're too lazy to learn the language yourself.
First of all you are using name calling and offensive wording in this post. Just because it is a debate forum does not mean that we can feel free to label entire groups of people as lazy. I used to teach ESL to Latinos when we lived in Missouri. Let me introduce you to 90% of my students...
They came mostly from Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala. They were referred to by most white people in the area as "Mexicans" as apparently most people think that anyone who speaks Spanish must be from Mexico. That shows a little ignorance on the part of us Caucasians, no? Most of my students were in their 20s-40s and had left spouses and/or children behind in their native lands. I don't know if they were legal or not and I really didn't care. We did have an immigration attorney who worked with them on that stuff. Many were refugees who had been repeatedly raped, beaten, or imprisoned in their own countries. All of these students worked at wholesale nurseries and were considered migrant workers. As such they were paid well below minimum wage, but still had to pay taxes. They worked from 5 am-5 pm 5 days a week. Those are 12 hour days of HARD physical work, both the men and women. Then they came to the neighborhood literacy center from 7-9 pm twice a week to learn English. Most of them had an elementary education or less from their native country. They came and for 2 hours twice a week to learn English after having put in 12 hours at work and you want to say they are lazy?
Have you ever been to a non-English speaking country? I have been to several and I can tell you that it is extremely mentally exhausting to function in different language all day long. In each community with a Latino or any other population, those groups are going to associate heavily with each other because of similar cultures, not to mention language. Do you think that after trying to fit in an English speaking culture all day that it just might be so much easier to talk with your Hispanic friends in Spanish? If that is that language that all of your friends and family speak, think in, dream in, etc. do you think it is easy to force yourself to speak in English together outside of work or a formal education setting? I am working to learn Spanish now and I can tell you that it is very difficult and laborious and I have an (almost) Ph.D. education and am quite gifted in language. Think of someone with a 5th grade education (not by choice or "laziness" but necessity) who has worked all day and still has children to tend to trying to learn one.
I feel very strongly about this subject and will stop before I say something I shouldn't (if I already haven't), but let's not call names or make snap judgments until we have walked a few miles in another's shoes.
Ditto PamT. My first reaction when seeing this thread re-visited was that the post was inciting, and I hope we can avoid this getting out of hand.
My African neighbor has worked hard to learn the language and she is pretty good at it now, but sometimes I don't understand what she's saying, because with her accent, she is pronouncing the word differently. I really try to understand her and most of the time I can! Her oldest son, who is nearly 9, knows the African language and she often speaks to him, in her native tongue and you can tell that is easier!
Sometimes it takes a while, of her explaining something, before I get what she is talking about!
She took some English classes when she first moved here. That couldn't have been easy, either, since the oldest one was only in kindergarten and had 3 younger brothers. The youngest one is almost 3, and was 5months old, when I met him for the first time.
My friend's stepmother was an Army nurse before the Army allowed women to have dependants. She and her father went to Germany to be with her stepmother, when her stepmother was stationed there. Patty was not allowed to attend the military schools or live in military housing. As a child who spoke no German, was forced to attend German schools. She soon learned the language. So did her dad. Why should I not expect people who come to live in this country to do the same?
For many years "The Ugly American" was depicted as someone who went abroad expecting the world to speak English. What have we now, "The Ugly Hispanic?"
I've lived in a foreign country. I know that I learned the language or else.
I have no intention of allowing politicians who want to build a Spanish speaking power base, to force me to give up the language of my country. If you are here illegally you should be deported.
Bellajoe,
I'm so glad you discovered you know more Italian than you realized. I'm sure this makes things a bit easier on you. And I'm glad that your dh and fil explain what they are talking about and they make that effort to speak so that you can understand them. (Now if I can only get my dh's family to do that...lol).
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