All this discussion about appropriate underwear, clothing and comments about morality make me wonder.....
If a girl/woman wears enticing clothing, is she "asking" for it and deserves what ever may happen??

By Palmbchprincess on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 12:19 pm:

I say no. I wore, before my stretch marks, low rise jeans and short shirts. Hey I lived in South Florida... it's HOT! I still wear short shorts, and tanktops that have spaghetti straps. Even so, that doesn't give anyone the right to violate my body. And how many times have we heard of old women or little girls, or "fully clothed" women being raped. If that's what you mean by asking for it, rape is a crime of hatred and anger, not uncontrollable sex urges. It is all about control and humiliation towards the victim. No matter what she wears. JMHO

By Sandie on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 02:02 pm:

There is not a black and white answer to the question.

Noone should be allowed to touch your body without permission. It is your body and you should be respected.

When you show no respect for yourself or your body (read: dressing and acting like a two bit whore) then the lines get fuzzy. The way you dress opens yourself up for comments. If you look sharp, then you want, sometimes expect a comment. Even if you dont look too good in a certain outfit, you hope your friends will be tactful and let you know. Once you put on that butt cheek hanging out skirt and your breasts are poking out of your shirt, you put on the holy "It is MY body, Leave me alone." Of course people are going to make comments, from nice butt to more raunchy things. It cannot be two sided.

Also, along the same lines...If you dress decently, you are considered to be a respectable person. Why, should you not be considered to be a slut when you are dressed like one?

Sex experts and psychiatrists tell you things about how to get sex when you want it, especially how to dress. It is common sense, would some guy think he had a better chance of "getting some" with the chick in the 4 inch heels, tiny shirt and mini skirt than the lady in the knee leght skirt, pumps and blouse?

Women KNOW that how they dress has an effect on others. If they say they dont, then they are lying or plain stupid. Come on, there are women all over the place looking in the mirror, pushing up this, sucking in that, covering up this, pulling out that on their bodies. Heck, look at all the control top pantyhose and wonderbras. Why in the world would you want to stick your breasts up and out, if you didnt want SOMEBODY to notice.

Yes, there are the sickos who will go after anything and everything, no matter how you are dressed. I have always believed you have the power to control how the average person perceives you.

Little girls can not e little girls anymore. Look around in the stores. At size 2T they are already making mini adult clothes. I ask you, what 2 yr old needs flare leg pants and a mini shirt with ruffled sleeves? Not mine. We should not let our children wear these types of things. If she grows up thinking that it is okay to dress like a hooker, then she will. Do not read this as not allowing your child to dress "cool", these kids can be "cool" and still be decent. The girls have to be taught respect for themselves and their bodies. If you dont teach it to them, how should they expect anyopne else to respect them?

By Tunnia on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 03:37 pm:

Well said Sandie! You and I think alike on this subject and I have nothing else to add.

By Ginnyk on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 08:30 pm:

I'll repeat what I said in the thong thread above. How you dress projects in image. That is why we are advised to dress a certain way when applying for a job, for example. I had a long battle with my youngest when he wore boots, a chain draped through his belt loops, and went days at a time without shaving (after he moved out, of course). He would complain about how he was treated in certain situations, and I would ask him - well, how were you dressed and what did you look like - and how would you treat a stranger who looked like you if you were the person in that situation. He finally - after about 10 years - got the message, and no longer dresses like a gang member. Thank heaven.

Ideally, a woman (or man) ought to be able to wear what they want when they want and where they want (bosses and job requirements excepted). And certainly no woman should be considered available for sex because of the way she dresses - any more than a man who flashes a large roll of money in a bad neighborhood should be considered available for being robbed. And by and large stranger rape has nothing to do with what the woman looks or acts like - it is an act of power and abuse. "Date rape", on the other hand - while never excusable (no means or should mean no, under all circumstances) - I do think how the woman acts or dresses has something to do with what the guy thinks is acceptable. I deplore it, but also accept it as a fact of life.

I deplore the current fashions for women. I am of the generation of women who fought long and hard and loudly for the right of women to not be sexual objects in school, in the work place, or anywhere else. And personally I am very frustrated by women who come to the office or school deliberately looking like sex objects. My boss, for one, is a looker and one who talks about women, and I know how he reacts to women who dress (or behave ) "sexy".

I am disgusted by the entertainment media and advertising that promotes everything with sexuality - either overt or with undertones.

I agree with Sandie - much of the fashion today presents an image of women as sluts. It is extremely difficult to find clothes that don't present that image, and I hate shopping more now than ever for that reason.

But to say that a woman is "asking for it" by the way she dresses and deserves whatever happens - NO!!! Emphatically NO. No woman ever deserves to have anyone take any liberties with her person that she does not consciously and knowingly permit and no man should ever ignore the word "NO". And it doesn't matter what she looks like, how she dresses her personal sex life is, or even if she is a hooker. Even a prostitute has the right to say no and have it respected. Fortunately, most states now have laws that do not allow a woman's past sex life to be brought into evidence if she charges someone with rape or sexual harassment - even our legislators have finally learned that NO should mean no.

By Jann on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 08:53 pm:

Sandie, you said "When you show no respect for yourself or your body (read: dressing and acting like a two bit whore) then the lines get fuzzy."
What is dressing like a two bit whore? is it showing cleavage? well how much is too much? shorts? where is the line on the leg that it becomes too short? makeup..how much is too much?how much? Underwear? bikini, brief, thong?
Who decides when you are showing yourself no respect?
Ginny, isn't acknowleging the behaviour, no matter how much we deplore it, implicitly accepting it and condoning it?

Ironically, when Sidney Biddles Barrow was running her prostitution ring, she had her girls dress in very elegant, respectable clothing.

By Ginnyk on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 09:47 pm:

Good questions, Jann.

By Mechelle on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:51 pm:

It's not told *Just how much is too much.......dressing like a two bit whore*
It all matters in ones opinion.
Your OP to that question, and mine, could be two very opposite ways.
I can't add anymore to this subject.
Palmb(Crystal?) Sandie, and Ginny, hit the nail on the head.
I agree with each and every one of them..
Also, along the same lines...If you dress decently, you are considered to be a respectable person. Why, should you not be considered to be a slut when you are dressed like one? ^5's!! My thoguhts exactly Sandie

By Ginnyk on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 05:27 am:

Jann, I've been thinking about your question to me. What I think is that this is the difference between the world as I think it should be, and the world as it is.

I wholeheartedly do agree with you in principal that how a woman dresses should have absolutely nothing to do with how she is treated, and particularly nothing to do with whether a man makes any attempt toward intimacy. And that is the goal I work toward. But I also recognize that although that is how "it should be", there is also the world as it is, and in the world as it is, how a person dresses has a major effect on how others perceive that person and how others react to or treat that person. Persons who are public figures recognize that "fact of life" and are very careful about the visual image they present.

Unfortunately, it is the rare human being who looks past the image to the person behind it, which is why in my days of active political demonstrations I was always consciously careful to dress like a "middle class" woman (complete with skirt and stockings or panty-hose rather than wear jeans and t-shirts) because I didn't want my appearance to give any cause diversion from the message I was advocating. Again, it "should not" have made a difference, but the fact of life is that it did, and I took that fact into account in my thinking.

I do agree that the kind of thinking that says what a woman looks like controls how she is treated is what leads, at the far end of the spectrum, to forcing women to wear that awful "tent" like garment in Islamic cultures. I do agree with you in principal.

By Feona on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 09:05 am:

A woman is never asking for it. I don't care if she is walking down the street naked. Actually there are beaches where they are naked! This society should be compassionate. Woman are just as important as men and we can wear what we want to.

I still don't get the thongs. But I am from a different generation. I'll take my tidy whiteys any day! Comfort over style anyday.

By Laurazee on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 02:36 pm:

I read an interesting article about Christina Aguilera and why she's made this transition from standard teenage gear to very revealing clothing (understatement). Here's a recent outfit of hers:

By Laurazee on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

P.S. Here's a link to an online debate over whether Ms. Aguilera's mode of dress is "too slutty". The majority of the responses seem to say, "You go, girl!"

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/living/forums/christina.html

By Palmbchprincess on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 03:58 pm:

OK I'll give you this much. Aguilara is going too far. As are Lil Kim and Foxy Brown, but they are doing it for the attention. From most articles you read about them, the reporters point out they are not dressed like that all the time. They do it for public appearances, figuring any publicity is good and that will get it for them. AND IT SELLS! I find Christina disgusting, and most of that comes from the fact that little girls look up to her. The same goes for Britney. I like Lil Kim, and other artists, and the biggest difference in my eyes is the people they market to. They aren't selling their sex appeal to the pre teen girls. It is adult music, and is marketed so. There is a time and place for everything, and though I will admit to some "slutty" clothes in my closet, they get worn to the club, where there is a limit of who is allowed in. If you are either inappropriatly dressed in front of children, or in a vulnerable place, you are out of line. You must be responsible for your well being and must respect the others around you.

By Laurazee on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 05:02 pm:

Here's another thought on Ms. Aguilera: a sudden change to overtly provocative clothing and behavior is sometimes a sign of sexual abuse.

So maybe it *is* a statement of sorts.

I think if she were really making a conscious rebellious fashion statement, she would have refused to accomodate the British TV show, as in, "No, this is me, take it or leave it."

The thing that makes me really curious is: what's behind this overly provocative mode of dress?
Is she:

a) totally clueless?
b) aggressively sexy?
c) the victim of a bad stylist?
d) acting out for reasons unknown to us? or
e) deliberately provoking a controversy?

The look of some of today's young female pop stars just baffles me. My initial reaction is to be appalled, but on further thought, I have to wonder what's behind it.

Anyone have any ideas? Perhaps I don't understand because I'm not in their demographic. Or is it just simply "Sex sells"?

By Bea on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:19 am:

I wouldn't call it ASKING FOR IT. I'd call dressing provocatively, advertising that you are interested. Do I think a woman who dresses like a tramp deserves to be raped? NO....but if a guy makes a move on her, she certainly shouldn't act surprised or offended.

I feel these styles are right up there with the spectacle both men and women are willing to become on reality TV shows. There is this insatiable need to be noticed. It doesn't matter what people think of you, as long as they notice you.

By Mechelle on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:31 am:

I don't care *what* her excuse is for dressing this way. To me its disgusting, and *Slutty*.
Teenage kids look up to her, as the old saying goes *Monkey see, Monkey DO*......I hope most parents don't allow these kids following thier peers, as her.
You dress this way, you are asking for it. The attention, the shhing talking, the eyeing, the men thinking "mmmmmmmmm there's an easy piece for me tonite"....Even if she wasn't popular, anyone walks into a bar, club anywhere I guarntee Men will be hitting on her, thinking it's gonna be *a good nite tonite*
All be danged my kid dresses like that!!
I don't care what she has to say about the nasty taste of outfits she wears.
I'd love to take her and Brittany Spears by the heads of thier hair, drag them into a dressing room, and dress them appropriately!!!

This pic posted above, why even go through the trouble of putting it on? Barely covered, might as well be naked! Sheesh!!

By Bea on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:33 am:

(I am of the generation of women who fought long and hard and loudly for the right of women to not be sexual objects in school, in the work place, or anywhere else.)

I think this is what upsets me so much about the styles today. It feels as if what we cared about had no value. Why did we bother?

By Feona on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 09:10 am:

I agree with Bea. My girlfriend once said, "Young women are dressing more and more like hookers"

High heels( which may cause bad feet). The bellies showing - the cleavage showing. (Gosh you could catch your death of cold) The low riding pants that may or may not cause sciatica (Too tight presses on the sciatica nerve. If you never had sciatica you are lucky. It can last for years if the sciatic nerve is aggrivated). Certainly it doesn't look comfortable to me.

By Familyman on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 05:03 pm:

Hmmmmmm..... I'm a guy. I have sisters, a wife and now a daughter. I'm also a guy (did I mention that?) If you dress in such a way that it would make men look at you, then I'll look. It's hard not to. I won't stare, but I'll look. Can't help it, wish I could. I have two big problems with this. The first is women who get mad that I look. If you didn't want me to notice your boobs then please put them INSIDE your clothes next time. The second is with girls dressing like this. Girls that are 17 or 15 or 13. From 100 feet they look like grown women, from 50 feet lots of them look like grown women. I can't tell that some of them are just girls until I get close to them. This is a problem. 17 or 15 or 13 year old boys don't need girls to dress like this. If they all wore cardboard boxes, big ones, they would still notice them and ask them out. Boys are boys. Who are they attracting then? Men, men who are 20 or 30 or 40. This is not a good thing. I can't hardly believe parents let thier daughters out of the house with these clothes, much less own them in the first place. What really bothers me is when I see a family out at the 15 year old daughter looks like a hooker and the dad looks really uncomfortable about it. Why did he let her dress like that in the first place?
Women should be able to dress however they want and should understand the messages they send. Girls shouldn't be able to dress like that and they should know it's because they sent the wrong messages to the wrong people. I'm so not looking forward to having a teenage daughter.

By Mechelle on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 06:50 pm:

I am soooooooooo glad that we got a Man's point of view on this subject!
Everything you have said, is the truth!!
You couldn't have said it any better

By Jewlz on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 11:48 pm:

thank you family man .... double ditto .... and ginny i agree with u so much ... my question to u all ... how do ur daughters really dress ... i have confiscated clothes from my daughter and threatened to make a scene if she didnt apply her make up properly ... and wed talk about how we preceive others that are dressed like the way she wanted to ... some kids just want the attention the girls dressin like that are getting thinkin that its a popularity contest ... i dont require her to dress conservatively but i do ask that she dress appropiately so that the mystery of the guy lookin at her is just that a mystery and when she is ready for the responsibility to reveal the rest of the story .....

By Mechelle on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:15 am:

I can't answer this question...........maybe in a few years! (WHEW!!)
I still dress my DD. She picks out the clothes when we are at the store, but she has to OK it with me before they touch the cart! LOL!!
So thankful mines still little, and my son too.

By Jann on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 09:13 am:

First, let me say that I don't like the little girls dressing like pop stars either, but what I find so ironic about the dress now, is that it IS what we wore when we were "protesting against the man". I wore hip huggers, halter tops, long wild hair, thick black eyeliner, no bra..and we were considered free spirits, cool..never once slutty. We were rebelling against the restrictions of the 50's and early 60's. It was sexual in a non judgemental way.

By Kaye on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 10:01 am:

To answer the question, no matter how you dress you do not deserve to have your body touched without your permission. But that being said, statistically you are more at risk for being sexually abused if you dress like a slut. Men are visual visual visual...period. If you doubt that, go buy the sexiest outfit you can and wear it at home for your hubby, bet he is interested! Women on the other hand are not as visual, we are mostly emotional, we fall in love, in lust not just because of how someone looks, but how they act. Even if the nicest looking man you know came up to and then he said rude remarks, you would more than likely walk away. Whoever wrote if you dress like you are looking for an invitation you best not be suprised if you get one, sums up my feelings. Unfortuantly there are men/boys in this world who mistreat womern (and vice versa) and it shouldn't happen. We don't go to the bank and pull out 1000 in cash and walk in the parking lot with it in our hand and be careless do we? So why are we so protective of our money, but hey lets hang our bodies out? I think even with the styles of today you can look nice and be stylish.

By Palmbchprincess on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 02:27 pm:

Kaye that was very well put. I have mixed feelings on the whole issue, but think what you said is very sensible. As for the question about what our daughters wear, thankfully mine is still in onesies and sleepers, but considering some of you have daughters my age, I'll answer myself. Keep in mind I dressed like this 5 years ago at 15. Fairly tight jeans, (bootcut)mainly b/c I have a flat butt and look like I'm losing my pants in any other fit. Some of my tops are fitted, some aren't. Before my kids, quite a few of my shirts showed a little belly. Here is my big thing. When we were in school, we had to wear shorts and skirts a decent length, (too decent really, they had to come to your fingertips, which on me is almost my knee) no middriff showing, no bras showing, and no cleavage. Are schools more lenient in your areas?

By Marymary on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:38 am:

I think in my point of view we are certainly bombarded by the "sexy" image in all forms of advertisement....what is sexy to one individual is "slutty" to another....I am shocked each time I see Christina Aguliera come out in public, her attire has become more and more risque, and what image does that convey to the up and coming teenagers, they see a women of her stature with all her fame and fortune and figure that she obtained it partially by dressing the way she does...I personally believe that a person can be sexy and beautiful but still be dignified, look at women like Shaina Twain , Celine, Julia Roberts, Halle Barry, from time to time they where clothes which we don't usually see them in, but for the most part they cover their bodies with tasteful clothing...personally I think that any survey regarding Christina where the results are "you go girl" degrading to women...sure it's a personal choice, but like mentioned time and time again in responses to this question, the majority of society does not wear that type of dress/rag in public, so I would say that the majority is the "norm"...and on an end note I would like to say I can't believe how much money the stars pay to wear so very little...I recently saw Tara Reid in an outfit that looked like leftover ends from the scrap bin at my local fabric store....well when you have $$$ you probably don't care what anyone thinks...besides the young teenage boys are getting what they want, especially after Baywatch has gobe off the air.

Just my 3 cents worth , which may be worth more than some of the clothing we see them wearing.

By Karen55 on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 11:34 am:

Crystal, our public school system has always had a very strict dress code, which included no sleeveless shirts of any kind, no drug/alcohol/death/devil related logos or writing on any shirts/Tshirts, skirts had to be to the knee, no open back or open toe shoes of any kind. Several years ago, most of the public schools in the greater New Orleans area changed their dress code policy to uniforms. Our school system was one of the last ones to do this and the kids started wearing uniforms 3 years ago. They consist of white shirts with collars, (or a shirt in the designated school color) and khaki or navy pants, shorts or skirts (which have to reach the knee), white socks and any type shoe as long as it's closed all around. Sweatshirts over the shirt have to be in the designated school color, and outerwear must either zip or button. There were several reasons for this dress code change, and this will open an entirely new thread I'm afraid! But I don't think there are many school systems left with the *90210* type dress codes.

By Bea on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 04:30 pm:

It was asked how we let our daughters dress. I didn't have daughters, I had two sons and that wasn't an issue, except that they tell me I made them wear NERDY clothes.

I was considered pretty wild when I was a teen. I did all the things that make parents decide to never have kids. LOL I'm going to post a few pictures of me during that time. Please notice how much skin is exposed, even in the bathing suit picture. I was a member of that burn the bra generation. With or without bras, I don't think our dress even was anything as sexually provocative as today's dress.

By Karen55 on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 05:05 pm:

Bea, did you actually ride that M/C? I used to LOVE to ride, BBS (which is Before Back Surgery)! I had leather chaps, jacket, gloves, steel toed boots, helmet with visor....I loved it!
Boy-oh-boy, do I remember some of those styles!

By Bea on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 06:08 pm:

Yes Karen. That was my friend's Candy Apple Red Harley Sportster. I loved that bike. I never owed one. My parents were against me riding, but as I said...I was a brat. I used to race motocross......bugs in my teeth. LOL

By Familyman on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 10:33 am:

You're a hottie Bea.

By Mechelle on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 12:11 pm:

lol Familyman.

Bea,
I see nothing wrong with the way you dressed *back then*

Todays society, thats nothing compared to what they wear now.

I tried riding a motorcycle 1 time. And won't do it again, I hit the clutch and let out the gas (too hard) needless to say the bike, went out from under me. Left me behind

By Bea on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 12:58 pm:

Thanks Seth. That's the past tense though. Now I'm a fat and sassy granny.....but still a brat. LOL

Karen. I'm so glad to hear that you wore all the safety equipment before it was mandatory. I used to get so pissed because folks rode in shorts and sandals with no helmets. When they had accidents, and were seriously hurt or killed, EVERYONE blamed what they were riding, and not the idiots on the bike. I also wore boots, chaps gloves and ALWAYS a helmet, even as a passenger.