Ginny, I need some vet advice please!
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Ginny, I need some vet advice please!
I have a Norfolk Terrier/Shihtzu mix dog, and she's 7. For the past few years she's had a horrible skin condition that causes her to scratch and chew herself raw. Her skin almost looks like it has oatmeal sloughing off, and it's driving her and us insane! It also affects her inner ears, so she's always shaking her head. We're had her to the vet more times than you can imagine, and each time they treat her for something different. Each thing seems to help for a bit, but then she starts again. I've even changed her to a diet of rice, meat and veggies that I made myself, but when the symptoms returned after awhile, I knew it wasn't the lamb and rice dog food that was causing it. The vet has also guessed that it could be hormonal, and suggested that fixing her might do the trick. Is that possible? I would like to get her fixed anyway, and should have done so long ago. It's been one of those things I've never had the extra money for, but if it might help, then I'll find the money!
If your son has any ideas, or anyone else on the board with some experience with this does, Sally and I would be eternally greatful!!
Thanks!
Forgot to mention that we've also used tea tree, oatmeal and antibacterial shampoos, as well as an ear wash.
Marcia, my son is a vet tech with a lot of experience with dogs, but not a vet. There are vets on the board, I know, and vet techs, and I hope they will chime in. I've asked Scott to respond to your post.
My friends had shitzu dog. The vet said to put some tablespoon of sort of oil in dog food for skin. Ask vet.
First they bought the expensive oil then they used like olive oil or canola oil.
Marcia, here is Scott's response:
First off, what's the diagnosis (or diagnosES)? What tests were done? Skin scrapes? Biopsies? Culture for bacteria or fungi? Bloodwork? Just what are those oatmealy cells, anyway? A certain armchair pathologist is curious. Of course, the diagnosis dictates the treatment, so if your vet is trying different treatment, one has to wonder what the Dx is, or how solid it is, and what was done to arrive at that Dx.
What treatments have been tried? Topical antibiotics? Systemic antibiotics?
Steroids? More info, please.
Secondly: if you have a mixed-breed, or even a pure-breed that you're not going to show, get it fixed before its first birthday. There's no reason to keep a dog intact unless it's being shown and bred. Yeah, I hate to say it, but she should've been fixed a long time ago. Whether the skin condition is hormonal, I can't say. There are a lot of intact middle-aged bitches with perfect skin, so I'm not going to say that remaining intact causes skin disease; I don't know of too many derm issues tied to estrogen or other female repro hormones. But there are a couple of skin conditions that are hormonal... again, what's the Dx? Was there bloodwork done for Cushing's Dz or thyroid issues? Those are endocrinological issues which can affect the skin.
The simple diet (mutton, rice, boiled vegs) is only useful if the dog has allergies or pancreatic issues. If the diet doesn't clear up the problem, then you might as well go back to store-bought chow.
About the tea-tree, oatmeal and antibio shampoos you've tried: are these Rx for veterinary use, or are they "herbal" remedies purchased from a holistic-health store? I strongly caution all against using human products on animals -- animals are not fuzzy stupid people; the physiologies are radically different.
Consider that we can eat chocolate and onions but your dog can't. And, which ear wash have you used?
Before I can give more counsel, I'd need to know more case history, with Dx, Tx and lab results. But you should be going over this with your vet, and asking why this Dz has progressed for a few years without resolution, i.e. without a solid Dx or treatment plan.
Thanks Ginny and Scott. Believe me, this has been discussed over and over and OVER with the vet! DH always takes her in, but I got on the phone and asked what was going on, because he had so many guesses, but didn't do any testing. She was on one antibiotic as well as prednisone (which seems to be the only thing that consistently helps), and I insisted he do a scraping. He did, and found out that he had prescribed the wrong med (apo-cloxi), and gave us a new one (clavamox).
The shampoos I've used are all for pets, and the antibacterial was from the vet. The ear wash is called Vet Solutions, and she's also had Panalog.
Each thing seems to help for a bit, but then it comes back.
I think that I'll be the one to take her in this time. It's hard getting info second hand. Also, DH doesn't ask questions like I do, and I won't leave until I have a good explanation, all tests have been done, and we have a good treatment plan. I could cry for this poor dog.
Marcia,
Not a Vet, but pick up enough dogs off the street to know a thing or two about skin.
First, what is the smell of her skin? Is it a sour smell or a bleach like smell?
Are her ears crusty on the tips, and moist inside?
Are there any raised red bumps with crust in the middle?
What you can do for now.
1. Wash your pup with Nutrogena shampoo. Off the top of my head I can't remember the name, it is really thick and tar like, for dry scalp.
2. Add a tablespoon of Flax Seed Oil (not tablets, liquid form in the bottle) Twice a day in her food.
3. After her bath, rinse her down with vinegar.\
4. As a precautionary ask your vet for a prescription of revolution.
I would find another vet, He should of skin scraped her off the bat.
Let me know, poor baby!
Shelly
Shelly - please believe me, I am not "defending" my son, but he pointed out that it is not a good idea to give human medicines or use human products (homeopathic or otherwise) on animals. I think he makes a valid argument for that. (I know, for example, that you can give a dog aspirin, but Tylenol will kill a dog.)
I agree with you that I would find another vet. Any vet who can't diagnose what sounds like a really serious skin condition in a "few years", and keeps chopping and changing on treatments, is a vet I'd leave - quickly. I suspect this poor dog is very, very uncomfortable, and I am surprised that she hasn't chewed herself raw and gotten infections in the raw skin.
I know Scott's dog got a yeast infection in and behind one of her ears, and she scratched and broke the skin almost immediately. (This took an expensive antibiotic shot, antiobiotic tablets, topical powder antibiotic, and 10 days to clean a spot that was about the size of a half-dollar.)
There are veterinarians who specialize in allergies and/or skin conditions. You could probably even find one that specializes in Shih Tzu's because the breed is so prone to the problems you mention. If you we're here i'd recommend you to the vet I worked at because they we're awesome with diagnosing these such things. (Side note but did you know that dogs can even be allergic to human dander?!!) I agree with finding another vet and I also agree with Ginny about staying away from human products. We use a lot of perfumes and stuff in our hair care products that i'd imagine would only make the problem worse.
LOL, I was reading this and thinking "Don't shampoos say 'not tested on animals'?" I'm a dork. I hope your dog is feeling better soon, it sounds like she's really uncomfortable!
My first dog, the reason I do rescue (his photo is in my profile) had severe problems with his skin. He was tested products on and his skin was always a mess. Several thousand dollars later we land at on of the top Animal Allergists in the country. These were recommendations from him to use on my dog, and my homeless dogs.
I have rescued HUNDREDS of dogs and have used the above mentioned products. Never once have I had a reaction, and the outcome always is that the skin gets better.
Shelly, she is exactly as you describe - stinky, not bleachy, crusty and wet ears, and crusty spots. Some areas of her skin are black.
A new vet is something we've already been looking in to. She's been in heat for the past couple of weeks, so we've been waiting til she's finished.
Thanks for all of your advice!
Marcia, what you describe sounds like what Sascha had - a stinky, wet spot behind her ear, crusty over part of it and weeping in other parts - it was a yeast infection.
Shelly, had you listed your experience and expertise in your first post, that would have made a difference to me. Obviously you know what you are talking about.
But, I don't usually check profiles before I respond to posts, so I didn't know.
I would still like to have Marcia take her dog to a different vet - preferably one with good experience with allergies - before trying other treatments. This poor dog has been through a whole lot of treatments, and deserves a sound, accurate diagnosis and treatment that is diagnosis-directed.
Marcia, sounds like a yeast infection to me. We just had an older shitzu mix with the same symptems. If the skin is turning black, it is pretty bad. Poor dog that we had, had lost all her hair and chunks of black skin were falling off. Good luck with what ever you do with your sweet doggie!
BTW Call your local shelter for a list of low cost/sometimes free spay clinics near you.
If it is a yeast infection it should be fairly easily diagnosed with a lab check of skin scrapings. And, if it is a yeast infection and has gone undiagnosed all this time, your vet should be fired (or shot - I'm kidding, but not by much).
I'd really like to know what diagnostic tests your vet did - other than looking and surmising. I would think that taking samples of the skin and exudations and sending them to a lab would produce a fairly clear diagnosis within a few days - was that done?
I do know that the treatment for Sascha's yeast infection (which was in a very small area) was internal and external antibiotic treatment.
Poor Sally. I hate to see an animal suffering because of human stupidity.
Shelly is right about animal shelters often having connections to low-cost spaying arrangements. But of course, you won't want to do that until she is healed. Poor baby.
Here is a site that has some interesting information about a secondary yeast infection for dogs:
http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/Diseases/dermatology/Malassezia%20dermatitis.htm
Wow, that's exactly her! I've printed it all off to take to the vet with me. Interestingly enough, the guy who wrote the paper is in Toronto. I'm going to do a search to see if he's still around, and maybe give him a buzz!!
Again, thanks!
Yes it was the flax seed oil and the two dogs.. weren't sprayed.
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