My dh and I need advice. We're kind of in a bad situation. We have a nursery for the babies and toddlers at church, but no matter what people are told they keep bringing their kids in there sick, so we cannot leave Emma in there. Everytime we have, she gets sick. Good hygiene is not practiced by the nursery workers, but they've been told and nothing has changed. That being said, we have no cry room and the Pastor refuses to put one in although we do have the room. They don't want to bc they say that's what the nursery is for. What we've been doing for about six months now is just going to the praise and worship service, but then we have to leave bc Emma wants to get down and play or just be really loud (not crying or anything, just playing). We really miss being in church, but we don't know what else to do. We have thought about going to other churches, but we don't feel led to do that. Any suggestions? We could really use them.

By Kaye on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 08:47 am:

I have been right where you are. My choice to take my daughter to church with me. Believe it or not that was the norm not too many years ago. What this means is that for the next couple of years it is your job to teach her to behave. Bring some cheerios, bring a quiet toy or two, maybe a coloring book. She can learn, you will have to work hard to teach her though. Getting down isn't an option. Sit near the back so you can leave if needed and get her calmed down and get back in there.

Second option, if you want to make nursery changes then work in there! People take critism poorly from people not involved. Help out one sunday a month, learn the routines about how they clean, what should be cleaned, etc.

I pulled my dd out because she was getting pinched by the nursery workers. I went to the pastor who blew me off, so we took her to church. Since then every new church we have gone too I have gotten very involved in the children's ministry. Churches and pastors take stuff like that from workers when they just don't have enough help. They can't fire them or they wouldn't have a nursery at all.

By My2girlygirls on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 09:30 am:

I have been director of our church nursery ( I have passed the torch since my kids no longer use it) and it is SO IMPORTANT that the nursery workers understand and follow the rules for hygiene. I posted signs up all around the nursery "Please wash hands" I posted one on the entry door that stated "For the safety of our small children,if your child has had diarrhea,vomited,or had a fever in the past 24 hours please be considerate and do not leave them in the nursery," I also posted one that stated "If your child has a COLORED discharge from their nose or eyes they would not be permitted in the nursery" That was up to the nursery attendant to decide. Some people did get offended but the illness went WAY DOWN in the nursery while I ran it. We also did a monthly cleaning of ALL of the toys. We would soak them in a bleach and water solution and then wipe and dry them thoroughly. After each service we would wipe surfaces with a disinfectant and change all crib, playpen and changing table sheets and we kept a supply of disposable sheets to cover the changing table and they were changed after each child and hands were washed also. It took about 15 minutes to do and was so worth it. As for saying something to the attendants, it is all in the way you say things, if you make it about the safety of ALL of the children it may be better received. Also, before you leave the nursery when you pick up your daughter, make it a point of having her to wash her hands with soap and water. You would be surprised how much that helps! Just a few thoughts...

By Missmudd on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 11:46 am:

We have always taken the kids into church w/ us. Sometimes the little old ladies kick up a fuss about some of the kids in church, our priest then informs them that the children are the future of the church and are to be tolerated. However they are not allowed free reign and are expected to mind in accordance w/ their age. Crying 6 mo are different than banzai 6 yo. All and all works well for our parish and we are fairly small so we are more like a family anyway.

As far as the hygeine thing goes, will your pastor address it from the pulpet? I am sure it is hard for the volenteers from the nursey to really say "no" to some parents. Maybe if it was discussed at church?

By Debbie on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:15 pm:

I would suggest doing what is best for your family. We always took my oldest ds to church with us. He was overall pretty good. If he got antsy, dh would take him out for awhile until he settled down. Well, then my youngest ds came along. He just couldn't sit and be quiet. He is just too active and loud. Unfortuantely, like yours, our nursery was usually full of sick kids and we didn't have a cry room either. Dh and I just ended up going to seperate masses for awhile. It worked better for us because it was just too stressful taking ds. He is now 4 and for the last year we have been taking him again and going as a family. He does very well. He usually takes some books and a few hot wheels cars. The first few times we took him, he was loud. We just kept reminding him to be quiet. We also take him for pancakes if he is good. That has helped.

If your daughter isn't too disruptive, then I would just contine taking her. Just continue to remind her that she is suppose to be quiet. If she gets really loud then take her out for awhile and let her calm down.

By Hol on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:26 pm:

I, too, can SO-O-O relate, although it has been almost three decades since it has been an issue for my kids. (We are expecting a little grandaughter any day now, however, so it may be an issue again).

We were military, and travelled around a lot. The first nursery that I put my toddler daughter in, she kept having her hair pulled by one of the little boys. The nursery attendant was oblivious, so DD took matters into her own hands, and BIT the child! That started a phase of biting everyone, including me. We had to break her of that. (She is now the mother of the expected grandaughter. ).

Later on, at about the age of two and a half, we discovered that she had asthma. Everytime she got a cold, it required a hospital admission. I learned that anytime she was around a group of children, she'd get sick. She'd be in the nursery on Sunday, and on Tuesday, we'd be at the pediatrician.

We then went to another church in another state. A little boy escaped from the nursery, and was found wandering around the church parking lot all alone. He was only about eighteen months old. For that reason, I would not put MY son in there. (By then, DD was in Sunday School). I used to get the dirty looks from the pastor if he started to fuss. I would also get a polite tap on the shoulder from another church member, "reminding" me that there was a nursery.
Consequently, my children learned to behave in church. They learned that it was 'God's house', and that you acted with respect.

At one of our duty stations, I had a good friend who was a Mormon. Mormon people are VERY child and family oriented. She invited me to a service. I was surprised that ALL of the children were in church with their parents. There were Moms nursing babies during the service. Children making 'happy' noises, and sometimes crying, and even walking up and down the aisles. Sometimes other church members would take the child as they passed by, and held them on their lap. It was like a big family. My friend told me that children don't learn how to behave in church unless they GO to church. I like that philosophy.

If I had a young one today, I would probably still keep them with me in church. Although our nursery worker, at the church we attend now, is a PAID staff member, and a registered nurse, assisted by volunteers, some churches can't afford to do that. She also had to pass a criminal background check. Nowadays, you can't be TOO careful. Just because they are church people, doesn't mean that you couldn't have a pervert in your midst. I like the idea of having a paid person anyway, so that no one has to miss church to do nursery duty.

By Juli4 on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 12:37 pm:

We don't have a nursery attentdant. My children are the only nursery age children so we usually go to church on sunday morning and sit in church for singing and such until the preaching starts and my 3 year old goes to chiildrens church with my husband and the other two I take and let them play. The baby someone will sometimes hold and occasionally the 2 year old will be good enough if she is the only one I have at the time to sit in church. The pens and tithing envelopes get demolished and scattered, but nothing too terrible.

By Pamt on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 08:13 pm:

Holly, this isn't at Parkview is it? I know you taught there, but I didn't think you attended. If so, then I've probably met you and didn't know it. And...I will talk to Sherry (the children's min.) if it is.

My thoughts are to go with Kaye's 2nd suggestion and get involved in the nursery. If the church has a children's minister then I would first talk to him/her---much more effective than the pastor since that person is directly responsible. If there is not a CM, then I would get on the nursery committee and start implementing changing table covers, gloves during diaper changes, and thorough washing of all toys/bedding/cribs, etc. I think the toys should be washed after each session and there should be no toy sharing b/c little ones drool and mouthe so often and also put their hands in their mouths a lot.

I am not a big fan of bringing little ones into a worship service for several reasons. It can be very distracting for the pastor and those seated around you (even a happy, well-behaved baby will elicit grins and interaction from those seated nearby), it is very stressful for the parents to try to keep the child entertained, and most importantly it is not fair to the child. I don't think an infant or toddler should be trained to sit still and be quiet in church at this age. Their natural instincts are to crawl, walk, climb, babble, talk, sing, wiggle, and explore and I don't agree with holding them hostage in church so that those very natural and normal desires are squashed. I also think it starts a negative church association with them from a very young age (esp with toddlers).

I think getting involved with the nursery and setting up guidelines (I would recommend a sign with illness indicators) and ENFORCING them is the way to go. That means that some children will be turned away for being sick and that means some parents will be irate, but so be it. You will have to have the CM's or pastor's support in that issue, because there will be complaints and it will ultimately fall on the pastor's shoulders. However, it IS in the best interest of the child that sick children not be allowed in the nursery. If the nursery workers are paid staff then they can certainly be made to follow hygiene guidelines. If you occasionally work in the nursery then you can model good hygiene and casually correct them like, "Whoops! I see you have your hands full with that baby so I'll be glad to get the gloves for you so you can change her." If your nursery is volunteer based (I personally feel that every church member who uses the nursery should be on a rotating schedule to staff the nursery), then hopefully those members will see the benefit of good hygiene and follow through. You might want to have an infection control nurse or pediatrician address the nursery group/committee on how important infection control is and practical ways to get there. And finally....lots of antibacterial, alcohol-based gel or foam. It's approved for hospital use b/c it does significantly cut down on spread of infection. I prefer to wash my hands and do so a million times of day at work, but when I have a drooling kid I just use the foam throughout our session and it is so convenient.

Finally, if it still remains an issue then you might consider changing. A church that really wants to grow and thrive knows that it depends on young adults to be the energy and the future of the church. To get and keep young adults in the congregation, a church knows that the nursery is of prime importance. A church that lets a nursery lapse (once it is indeed aware of the problem) really may not be so interested in growing.

By Ginny~moderator on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 08:22 pm:

I think Pam has some good points. Your pastor/church clearly isn't interested in dealling with the problem of sick children in the nursery and poor sanitation procedures, nor in providing a place where parents who won't put their child in the nursery can take the child and still listen to the service. If it were me, I'd change churches, and start looking for a church that takes child care and families with young children seriously.

Pam is quite right - the church has been told there is a problem and they won't deal with it. That doesn't leave you a lot of choices. You can continue to risk your child getting sick, you can deprive yourself of a full worship experience, or you can find a church where your child can have a good nursery experience without getting sick and you can participate in worship without having those nagging worries at the back of your mind.

Now, in my church, all children are invited into the worship service up until the time of the passing of the peace, when they are taken into the nursery or to various planned programs (for chidren up to 6th grade). And we have the cry room. And the service is piped into the area where we have our coffee hour after worship, so that if necessary a parent can take the child there and still hear the full service. My church has a population that is by and large older, but we pay great attention to our nursery, paying a trained person to run the nursery on Sundays. We realize that the future life of our church depends on attracting and keeping families with young children who will grow up in the church, and we treat that like the important matter it is.

By Hdelfuego on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 10:11 pm:

I appreciate all of your comments. Pam, I don't go to Parkview, but it's an idea. I wanted to say, we worked in the nursery as long as we put Emma in there. One of my best friends was put in charge of the nursery, but the other volunteers (parents) didn't listen to her at all or her ideas on cleanliness such as disposable changing pads, washing hands after diapering, not letting sick kids come in (they didn't want to seem rude), and wiping down the toys with antibacterial wipes after church. After her own son got very sick in there Sunday, she had enough and called the Pastor's wife who is also the secretary and quit her position as nursery head. The main woman who works in the nursery voluntarily every Sunday will change a diaper and then immediately go give all the kids grahm crackers. My dh and I have both been involved in the nursery and have voiced our opinions to the Pastor's wife and my friend who was the nursery head and several other parents, but nothing has changed. That's why we quit working in there and quit putting Emma in there too. So, we have tried the cheerios, books, quite toys, but at sixteen months she doesn't exactly understand that she can't "talk" in church. Another thing I should say is that a "normal" church service is from 10:15 to 12:30 (2.5 hours). That's way too long to expect a toddler to sit still and quiet. So please help since this is a little more detailed info. Thanks, Holly

By Amecmom on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 01:30 pm:

This would be a non issue if all churches had a short service for parents with young children. I don't mean a long, child oriented service, but a bare-bones, prayer to go service.

When I worked in the city, I'd go to a lunch hour mass. It was 15 minutes and just perfect. I think church attendance would go way up if churches offered something like this.

Didn't offer helpful advice, sorry. Just had to vent. I share your frustration.

Ame

By Pamt on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 01:32 pm:

Well, no other ideas really, but absolutely cringing of the thought of changing a diaper and then handing out graham crackers. Yuk! 2.5 hours is an awfully long time to try to keep your DD entertained in a pew. And since you've volunteered in the nursery and gone through the proper channels to get things to change I really don't know what else to suggest. Except....making it a matter of prayer. It's always hard to leave a church, esp when you have really strong friendships there and like SO much of it. However, a lot of people are kind of forced to change churches for children's ministry or youth ministry purposes, even though the church is meeting adult needs just fine. Prayers that you guys will make the right decision.

By Hdelfuego on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 02:15 pm:

Thanks Pam. We are constantly praying about this and have been since I was pg bc we knew it would probably be a problem. For the time being we're going to ride in seperate vehicles to church and Emma and I will leave when we have to. My dh wants us to take turns doing this so I can hear the message sometimes too. I told him that he could just get the video of church for me and I would watch it during the week. I agree with him that's watching a video of it is much different than feeling God's presence when you're actually in the service, but I must admit...I'm a bit upset that it has come down to my dh and I having to drive seperately all the way across town to our church to only have to leave seperately bc they don't offer enough for families with kids. The whole reason this is a problem is because we really want to be in church and feel God's presence and direction and that shouldn't be a problem. Thanks for all of your advice. If you think of anything else please let me know. Holly

By Pamt on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 03:39 pm:

It is definitely a hard decision Holly. I do think you need to keep in mind that church isn't just about the message (which I'm sure you already know ) it is also about the fellowship and you don't need to cut yourself off from gathering with the community of believers. Since you are a SAHM I think it is all the more important. Of course God is everywhere, but it is very different being a participant in corporate worship versus watching it on video as you already mentioned. Also keep in mind that God created families and is all about famililes and it makes Him smile to see you ALL together at church. I hope you can work out a good solution that brings peace to you all.