Urinary Probs again?
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Natalie MAY be having urinary problems again.
She had what seemed to be a UTI about 6 weeks ago maybe. Had an antibiotic, seemed fine after that. She woke this morning and within an hour had 3 accidents in her panties, all just enough to have to change them, not a full-on accident. Each time, she got on the potty and didn't pee anymore but clutched her belly and cried that her belly hurt. Right before bed lastnight, we noticed that her face was a bit flushed, but she seemed to feel fine so I didn't take her temp. The last 2 nights she's been up about 3-4x a night, just whining in a sleepy way. I also noticed that her body felt warm to me lastnight when I went in, which is unusual for her.
I gave her a cup of cranberry juice this morning, and she seems to be fine except when she has to pee. (The 3x I mentioned). I don't feel good about going to the doctor, although I'll watch this and see what happens and of course will go if needed. DH also noticed lastnight when putting on her nighttime diaper that she had quite a bit of "white stuff" (I don't know how else to describe it) in her vaginal area. That also happened with the first incident.
DH and I were talking that she seems to have had more vaginal issues since being potty trained than she ever did in diapers. She rarely had a rash, and when she did there was a cause. (white grape juice for instance) Since potty-training, her vaginal area is red off and on but frequently, there's this discharge that's happened on 2 occasions, and possible UTI's. DH said maybe it's because she was "cleaner" with diapers since we were wiping her with wipes every diaper change. Should we go back to doing that do you think?
What is causing this? Is there something we can do to help prevent this? She drinks a Danimal yogurt DAILY and her primary drink is water. She takes a bath every other day due to eczema. They don't seem to want to prescribe anything at my ped unless it's without a doubt and clear evidence of a UTI, not "maybe". I know when they gave her an antibiotic before, her vaginal area was BEET red and that cleared right away. No more discharge stuff and no more frequent and complaining urination. Any thoughts?
If you suspect a UTI I would take her to the doctor because untreated it can become a real problem.
Is she wiping herself at all? If she is you really need to stress front to back wiping. We still use wipes, even though Joe is potty trained & when Olivia goes potty on the toilet. We just use the kids flushable ones.
Are you putting anything different in her bath water at all? Using scented or colored toilet paper? Could the fabric softener or laundry detergent be just a little to harsh for her vaginal area?
At your peds office don't they so a unrine test for a UTI?
Ditto above-I'd take her in again.We went through UTI's and high fevers with Katie when she was 21/2.After getting 3 infections within 3mths we saw an urologist(sp) and he put her on antibiotic just at bedtime until they could figure it out.They thought she had reflux in the kidney.They did an ultrasound and a test where they could watch her pee travel through the kidneys.To this day we don't know what caused fever/infections her tests all came back negative and she didn't get anymore fever/UTI after we took her off the antibiotic.
I don't have any experience with this but I was thinking laundry detergent and fabric softener as well, with her having excema as well, if you are not already, I would switch to an unscented soap and drop the fabric softener altogether.
Hope things improve, it's hard to see our kids sick and being uncertain of the cause can be stressful. Keep us updated.
I would take her into the doctor for a test. I know from experience that if it is a infection, she is in tons of pain right now and believe me, it can get much worse!! It should be a simple pee in a cup test. In any case, something is going on and you need to figure out what. I would start with the doctor and go from there.
My dd is very sensitive in that area. At about 3, we had to start having her take showers with unscented shampoos and conditioners. I also had to make sure when she was wiping herself, she was doing it correctly. We did use wet wipes but followed up with tp or else the leftover moisture caused yeast infections.
Good luck. I understand why you don't want to go to your doctors. They haven't really taken this issue seriously, if I remember your last posts.
I would begin showering her instead of giving her baths. I just keep the shower curtain open and stand right there and soap my DD up and have her spin around to rinse, and it helps that my showerhead is detachable so I can hold it and do a great job of rinsing. It's chillier than a typical shower since the curtain is wide open, but keep the bathroom door closed and once you're both inside, heat the room up quickly with the hair dryer.
She doesn't use bubble bath, does she? That is an absolute no no for little girls (unfortunately).
My niece experienced this at the same age and went to a specialist at UofM. My sister was told no baths what so ever. Use parfume free detergents and softener and had her use a timer and go to the bathroom every two hours during waking hours. She was on an antibiotic too. She was so cute, everywhere they went she had her little timer on her and knew when she had to go potty or try to go. She did outgrow it eventually.
The other thing that can cause problems or did with my dd was her father used toilet paper that had lotion or something like that in it and she had sever problems with that.
If you can i would go back to using the same kind of wipes you used to use on her and see if that helps then you can possibly try some of the flushable ones.
My dd has not had any problems since her dad quit getting that toilet paper.
Good luck and I hope she feels better soon.
We use the Kandoo flushables, but just for poop, not pee. We just use TP for pee. I could ditch the TP altogether, but she has to use it sometime. Ours doesn't have any lotion in it that I know of. It's the cheapo.
We have always used Cheer Free detergent because my DH has sensitive skin. Same fabric softener as always for the same reason - DH. She has a form of eczema, I can't remember the name, so we use cetaphil lotion and every other day baths. No bubble baths at all, same soap and shampoo since she was born.
She does wipe herself first, then we wipe her again thoroughly. Flushable wipe for #2 if necessary. She hasn't had as many accidents sinc ethis morning, but complains a lot of tummy pain when she goes, and seems down in the dumps.
I know it's easy to just get a urine sample, but it's not with our doctor! We got a very good sample (I thought) the first time around and they told me it was contaminated and showed a slightly elevated white blood cell count. They could not conclusively determine that it was a UTI so they wouldn't give us meds until griped big time. Getting a urine sample from a 2 year old isn't that easy, and I really thought the first one went very well but apparently it still wasn't good enough.
At our ped's office, if you're not dying you get NO meds. It's frustrating. I'll keep watching her and giving her cranberry.
Thank you everyone!!  All great suggestions.
Deanna,
Could it be a yeast infection?
Ame
The doc shouldn't just be dipping the urine, he should be sending it away for urinalysis.
I've had many UTI's, and had to have corrective surgery when I was about 12. When my dd had her first UTI, they immediately did the full testing, to rule out reflux. The last thing you want is for them to ignore it and it goes to her kidneys.
My mom has also had many, and her doctor told her to use only ivory for her undies. She's never had a problem since. Even though you haven't changed detergents, when she was wearing diapers they weren't near her vaginal area.
I hope she feels better soon! It's a pain like no other!
Good point Marcia on the detergent...that seems obvious now that you say it but I never thought of it.
Detergent suggestions that would be more "free"? We use Cheer Free as it is. I used Dreft for about a week after she was born and couldn't stand the smell. I ended up giving it to a friend.
Originally, they dipped the urine in the office and since it showed slightly elevated wht. blood cell count, they sent it to the lab. The lab ended up saying the sample was contaminated and could not determine if she had a UTI. Three days later her vagina was even more red and the frequent urination, accidents, and pain started. The antibiotic worked wonders.
I can't imagine her not taking a bath!  DH has been doing her baths her whole life and it's a fun time for them. If that's what we end up doing, so be it, but it will be hard to say goodbye to.
I gave her cranberry (which helped me a lot when I got frequent UTI's during pregnancy). She complained only once this evening during urination of her belly hurting. The first time this all happened, she mostly complained of her vaginal area hurting during urination.
Detergent suggestions anyone or is Cheer Free a good choice anyway? We use Bounce fabric softener I think. I've never looked around at those, just knew that when I switched once DH broke out. YIKES! If I have to do 3 sets of laundry.....
I just wish I felt better about the dr. situation.
My mom was told to use liquid ivory. You could just hang them to dry, or put them in the dryer for a couple of minutes alone, with no bounce.
After reading about the bounce, maybe that is it. A friend of mine was having a terrible reaction to something and her dermatologist had her switch laundry soaps and wash all bedding and clothing and even after that she kept getting hives, come to found out there was a bounce fabric softener sheet stuck to the bottom of her mattress pad and after removing it and washing everything her hives went away. This took her serveral months to figure out. Hope you find a solution soon.
Did you look into finding another doctor? I know you were not happy with this one. I just know that my daughter ended up in the hospital with this when she was almost 2. The only one she has ever had thank goodness. I don't think this doctor seems to take this as serious as he should. Good Luck!
My sister's dermatologist always recommended Ivory soap in the shower as well. I will try some of the liquid ivory and no softener at all.
I was thinking that I would just need to do her underwear separately, but should I do towels and wash rags also since they come in contact with that area, even if not as frequently?
Her vagina is still beet red this morning after diaper rash cream lastnight, but no complaining and no "belly-aches" so far.
Deanna, try Ivory for the whole family and ditch the fabric softener. We don't use fabric softener and we have a bit of static from time to time but it's no big deal. I'm super sensitive to soaps, my mom used liquid Tide one time or Whisk on my sheets and I would have ripped my skin off if I could have.
I have never tried Cheer, I use Melaleuca unscented with no fabric softener and love it, but you really have to be a member for it to be affordable so I'm not recommending it for everyone.
And what about what Ame said, the white stuff does sound like yeast, did the doctor check for that? Is she itchy at all?
How is she today? Oh and I wanted to mention about the cranberry, it's great to UTI but just keep an eye on her bowel movements as it can cause constipation.
Sorry I think you posted as I was typing.
Instead of using diaper rash cream, try using yeast infection creme. If it is a yeast infection, the diaper rash creme won't work on it. And, it won't hurt her to use the yeast infection cream.
And, I would seriously look into getting a new ped. I drive 40 minutes to our ped. I like her and she takes me seriously when I take the kids in. Since it's only once or twice a year, she knows that when I'm bringing one in, it's serious. She's a mom and truly believes mommy instincts are sometimes better than a medicine book. Good luck.
You could also buy some good acidophilus and put that in her drink for a while. It will help to get rid of any yeast she has. Yeast will cause white discharge and the redness. It also causes runny noses, rashes, tummy aches, etc.
Ditto the yeast (the whitish stuff). And ditto Marcia on the acidophilus.
About the yeast: They looked at her for a yeast infection the first time and said that it wasn't that. She has no itching at all, and one evening of discharge this time. I thought if it was yeast she would be itching and complaining constantly, and there would be more discharge.
Thanks for the hint on the cranberry...I didn't know it could cause constipation. I actually amy giving her cran-apple. That's what I always used because plain cran doesn't taste good to me.
Tayjar...I know. We were hoping that DH would have a new job and be moved by now, but that hasn't happened. We're once or twice a year to the doctor as well, so it's definitely not frequent. It's doesn't feel good to anxiously wonder what your ped will do or to not feel good about their diagnosis. DH and I were talking about it lastnight and we're going to check out some doctors farther away.
The first time, the ped "really didn't think she has a UTI" and that it was just outside vaginal irritation. He told me to sit her in a baking soda bath for 10min. every day for a week. We did that, then the UTI symptoms came on full-force. Like I said, she's had outside vaginal irritation since she was potty-trained that diaper rash cream seems to only temporarily clear up. (Like it's better for 24hrs. then back to redness again.) She never itches or holds herself though.
You guys are great. I'm going to pick up some Ivory tomorrow if not today.First I'll try her things, then do a test with DH. He's got super-sensitive skin as well.
I remember my pediatrician telling me - when my middle son turned out to have very sensitive skin - to run an extra rinse with a cup of vinegar in it, because the vinegar neutralizes the detergent (acid v. alkiline)
I would also stop using the Kandoo wipes or any other wipes entirely, and just use toilet paper and a clean wet rag. It's a whole lot better to be washing a lot of rags than having your daughter so miserable.
I haven't read all of the responses but I have had HORRIBLE UTIs all of my life (minus the past 5 yrs, Thank the LORD!!!). I have reflux, and have been on medications most of my life for it. They have said something about surgery to fix the problem, but like I said, for some reason for the past 5 yrs I have not had one single problem. Have her tested for Reflux if you have not already. It is not a pleasant experience to go through, but it will let you know. Good luck.
Personally, I would not test her for reflux at this point. She never had these issues while in diapers so for reflux to hit right when she graduates to panties doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, she's never been officially diagnosed with a UTI.
Is she perhaps holding it instead of stopping her play to go potty? Holding it can lead to infections. The longer that stuff sits in there the more chance it has to infect you. And if SHE wipes FIRST she may already be spreading the poop into the wrong places. I think she's kinda young to be wiping, personally. I would wipe her first and then let her wipe so she gets the practice and the motions down, but while she's able to go first, as I said, she could be smearing things into vulnerable places.
Kate - I meant that she wipes first when she pees. She's never wiped herself for pooping. She doesn't wipe at all when she poops. I wouldn't let her wipe for #2 either! The pee wiping is for practice, and is always followed by a thorough wipe from us.
I agree also Kate that I don't think it's reflux at this point. It seems odd that the redness, complaining, possible UTI's, and irritation all started with panties. I DO think there's a possibility she's holding it while she plays, because recently she doesn't want to take the time to go. That's a good possibility. I also think it's definitely worth changing the detergent and eliminating the softener. I'm also going to ditch the Kandoo wipes and if she needs a more thorough cleaning I'll just use the regular Pampers wipes we always used with diapers. Then we'll see if there's any improvement.
Thanks for your concern and all of the great thoughts/suggestions ladies!
Deanna, yeast infections aren't always the same in kids as they are in us. We get crazy itchy, and they get red and sore. There isn't always a discharge.
Hopefully she'll start feeling much better when you make the changes you mentioned above.
Ditto Marcia- Kids don't itch with yeast infections like adults.If yeast infections become habit they'll usually test sugar levels.I hope she's feeling better soon (((Natalie)))
Deanna, I found this which I thought might be helpful.
Ame
Vulvar and Vaginal Irritation
While little girls escape foreskin infections, sometimes they do develop irritations of the vulva and vaginal area, leaving the area red and sore. "Prepubertal girls lack estrogen, which protects the mucous membranes of the genital area," explains Nieman, "so it's easier for irritation and inflammation to take place." Going without undies, skipping synthetic panties in favour of cotton, avoiding bubble bath (which can irritate sensitive tissues) and promptly removing wet bathing suits may aid in prevention. If these strategies fail, it's relatively common for doctors to suggest a short-term prescription for a topical estrogen cream. While giving a little girl an adult hormone might sound worrisome, the dose is small, and little is absorbed into the bloodstream.
Yeast Infections
We usually think of a yeast infection as an itchy vaginal condition, but this isn't the case for kids. While vaginal yeast infections are rare before puberty, that doesn't mean children are immune. Certain strains of yeast, which thrive in warm, damp places, find the diaper area custom-made for their comfort. All they need is an opening - whether it's the irritated skin of ordinary diaper rash, or the aftermath of antibiotics, which wipe out the beneficial bugs that keep bad-guy bacteria at bay.
The result is an angry red rash surrounded by specks called satellite lesions. The uncomfortable condition doesn't usually respond to ordinary diaper rash creams, requiring instead a prescription anti-fungal cream to quell the uprising yeast. As a preventive measure, some people suggest eating natural yogurt, which contains lactobacillus acidophilus, a microorganism that augments the body's natural defences. But while yogurt has lots of benefits for your child's body (it's rich in calcium and more easily digested than milk), there's no scientific proof the bacteria it contains bans yeast infections in children.
Urinary Tract Infections
The skin isn't the only organ that's potentially vulnerable to bacteria - these opportunistic organisms can also invade the bladder through the urethra, the tiny tube that empties the bladder. The body's defences usually repel the onslaught, but occasionally the bugs manage to multiply, causing a urinary tract infection (UTI). In infancy, an intact foreskin can make a baby boy more prone to UTIs than their circumcised cousins, possibly because the foreskin provides a breeding ground for bacteria. (Just how much more is a subject of debate; estimates range from nearly quadruple, to more than ten times.) Another variable in the equation is breastfeeding, which reduces the risk. Whatever the cause, in babies, fever is often the first clue something is amiss, says Gregor Reid, a professor of microbiology and immunology at London's University of Western Ontario. In one study, 5.3 percent of all emergency room visits for fever in infants were eventually explained by UTIs. Other symptoms can include burning or discomfort while urinating and cloudy or bloody urine. The condition is diagnosed with a simple urine test, and is usually cleared up quickly with antibiotics.
No matter how simple the cure, though, prevention is preferable. Because the culprit commonly behind UTIs in adults is E. coli (a bacterium found in stool), physicians like Nieman maintain that cleanliness is part of the answer. A girl's urethra is much shorter than a boy's, making it theoretically easier for bacteria from the rectum to migrate up the urinary tract. This may be one reason why three times the number of school-aged girls (about three percent) get bladder infections compared with boys the same age. (The reverse is true in infancy: baby boys are more likely than girls to develop UTIs.) Therefore Nieman suggests a key component of avoiding UTIs is teaching your daughter to wipe from front to back after a bowel movement.
However, other experts pooh-pooh the role of poop. "Anybody who believes wiping has anything to do with [UTIs] has never changed a diaper," asserts Brian Steele, a paediatric nephrologist and professor of paediatrics at McMaster University.
While Steele promotes good hygiene, he doesn't believe it deters the condition. Instead, he argues, "It's all in the emptying." Steele argues that UTIs tend to occur in "very busy little girls" who hold urine for too long and then don't take time to empty the bladder completely, boosting the chance of infection by allowing bacteria more time to multiply. The preventive prescription? Encourage your daughter to sit long enough to let it all out, and foster frequent peeing by offering lots of water, and not waiting until nature calls. "Don't ask the question, 'Do you have to go?'" Steele says. He suggests making washroom trips automatic by linking them to other routines - toothbrushing, or handwashing before a meal, for example. And if the bathroom does beckon, don't make your child wait.
There is also a link between UTIs and constipation. "Incomplete emptying is associated with constipation," Steele explains. "If you get rid of hard stool, you empty your bladder better." To keep your child regular, be sure to offer her plenty of what Nieman calls the three Fs: fluids, fibre and fruit (and vegetables).
Speaking of fruit, no discussion of UTIs would be complete without covering the cranberry question: Does cranberry juice really boost bladder health?
Some data suggest a four-ounce glass of cranberry juice three times daily reduces the risk of UTIs caused by E. coli. The theory has it that there are properties in the juice that make it difficult for the bacteria to latch on to the bladder wall. And when you consider that it's also a good source of vitamin C, a dose of the pink stuff may be just the thing to give UTI-prone kids a boost below the belt.
Contact your doctor if your child experiences any of the following symptoms:
discomfort while urinating
blood in urine
unexplained fever
stream of urine never stronger than a trickle
angry red diaper rash surrounded
by satellite lesions
Deanna,How is the big girl feeling today ?
She's been feeling much better actually. The area is not that red now, and she isn't having accidents or complaining at all, and not trickle peeing anymore either. It's weird. She cried when she peed that first day and held her tummy. Now nothing. Thank you for asking about her!!
We've been doing 2 full sippy cups of cran-apple each day.
Ame- Thank you for the info!!
Oh...gotta go...more later!
Okay...I feel REALLY dumb, but what is liquid ivory??? Is it not a detergent? I looked at the store today and couldn't find anything. Help?!
TIA
I'm glad she's doing better I'm not sure about the liquid ivory either.I use to use ivory snow for the boys.
Yes, it's ivory snow but in liquid form. Do you guys have ivory snow in the states?
I guess I don't even know what ivory snow is! Would it be in the detergent aisle? It wasn't at Walmart, but I haven't checked anywhere else yet.
Yes,You can buy it at Wal-mart.It's a laundry detergent,just for babies.
I just looked on the box that I have in the laundry room,and it says made in Toronto,Canada.I'm not sure if you can buy it in the States.
Okay...so it is a detergent and I didn't know it was just for babies. I'll check at Meijer and Target also. I hope I can buy it here and try it out! Thank you so much for the info!
She has complained slightly once or twice of tummy pain during urination the last 2 days, so that seems to be better. BUT, she has been very irritable and isn't sleeping well at night. Also needy and I wonder if it has something to do with the "something" that might be going on in there.
Deanna, I used to use Ivory Snow on the kids laundry when they were babies/toddlers. It smells good, it is gentle. Jen had some bladder issues at around age 2 (give or take). You can't find it just anywhere though, and it's more expensive that the other laundry detergents. But I loved it.
I'd just get her checked out.If it is an infection she'll need antibiotics.The juice might be masking her symptons.
I would go to the doctor too. If this is an infection, I would think time would only make it worse and it could back into her kidneys. I wouldn't want that to happen. She is obviously in some pain an I would get her to the doctor and get everything medical ruled out before taking the time to experiment with other things. If your not happy with your doctor, take her to one of those stat care places if you can.
Hey Deanna,Just wondering how little Nats is doing.
Thank you Sherri, for asking! She's doing better. I didn't take her to the doctor. We switched detergents (to Dreft) about a week ago, and ditched the softener a little before that. She was red once since I changed detergents, and no complaining during urination. It seems like the detergent is making a difference! I marked my calendar when we started using Dreft, so I can watch her. It has really cleared things up for her though, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it is detergent-related. Thanks again for asking! Sorry it took me so long to get back on here...I've haven't been on much lately.
Well,that's a relief.I'm glad she's feeling better.Sensitive skin like her Daddy.
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