One month of school & ADHD brought up (long)
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I'm really not sure how to take this. My kindergartner's teacher called with "some concerns". She said ds takes all morning to "settle down" - implied he acts like he had sugar for breakfast and asked what he eats (school breakfast, rarely any sugar at home, 10.5 hours sleep, no TV during the week). Said he fidgits at his desk, gets under his desk, talks to kids next to him, gets up in the middle of a lecture to get a drink or turns around looking at other stuff in the room (basically he isn't paying attention when she's talking and doesn't appear interested). Oh, and he's the messiest child she's ever taught, she's never had to scrub a desk like she has to scrub his.
And then she says when ds is disciplined (spoken to sternly, 'clip' moved down on his chart, etc.) he pretty much just gives a shoulder shrug and a grin (she said this makes her just want to smack him!).
Ds reacts the same way to us when we 'negatively' discipline him - he acts as if he could care less if he's punished (that grin!). I think it's a nervous grin, like some people cry when they are stressed. I think he does care, but he keeps his feelings deep down. But maybe I'm wrong about that, just wanting to see the best in my kid. I told her positive praise works best with him (catching him being 'good' and commenting on it), though of course we do discipline for bad behaviors.
Then she says, "If I didn't know your son I'd say he acts like the kids I have who are ADHD. Of course I'm not diagnosing him and he does have behaviors that don't indicate ADHD. But I am at my wits end on how to handle him or what to do. I may have to start taking away his recess and move him to a desk alone and I really don't want to do that." (this part of her conversation is burned into my mind!)
She also did state that she likes our son, thinks he's smart and charming and a "sweetheart". She's taught K for nearly 30 years and she taught our oldest and did a good job of it we thought (he was/is a social talker and she handled that well). I acknowledged to her that dealing with ds can be frustrating, that he's a 'hands on' child (tactile - likes to touch & explore everything constantly).
Oh, she also brought up him being a middle child and that like ALL middle children she's seen he seems to crave attention. I was a little defensive on that one because dh is a middle child and so we've always TRIED to make sure ds doesn't lack anything the others get.
I don't know where to go with this, what to do or think. We did tell ds to stay seated at his desk and to look at his teacher while she talks. But I don't know what else to do on my end, and am a little concerned that the teacher seems not to know what to do ("I just don't know what to do with him" she said). I'm unsure what she wanted from me/us, I am somewhat hurt and worried that my child is seen so negatively (even though she says she likes him). And her bringing up ADHD the way she did, what/why?, I don't even want to go there after just one month of school! Just call me confused and conflicted period and I'd really like to know how others view this.
Thanks everyone, and I'm very sorry this is so long.
Oh that's hard to hear! My sympathies! I'm wondering though, exactly how old your son is? And how many kids are in the class? Perhaps your son is on the younger side and the class is large and the teacher is reacting more strongly to him than she would if the whole class situation in general were better? If it's JUST your son and her description is accurate, I'm not sure what to tell you. Is it half day K? If so, could he be moved to the afternoon class? Perhaps if he had the morning at home to burn off his energy, he'd be more apt to sit still in school? Is this woman having problems with any other kids in the class? Does your son like school or have any particular negative or positive comments to make about it?
Thanks for your good questions Kate. Ds is 5 and a half and there are about 18 kids in class. K is all day in our district, since last year. The VP sometimes takes over teaching certain subjects and the teacher said ds's behavior is the same with her and both of them are frustrated by it.
I don't know if other kids are having problems but she made it sound as if he were the worst in the class (maybe just my impression and not true).
He does like school, looks forward to going, has made a 'best friend'. Nothing particularly negative or positive that he says. I do always ask "What is the best thing that happened today?" and sometimes he will have an answer, other times he'll say "Nothing."
Thanks again for your thoughts!
I have an 8yr old DS who sounds just like yours only I was the one concerned about ADD/ADHD and the teachers didn't/don't think so, so he's never been tested. He was born at the end of Nov. and we put him in Young 5's before Kindy. He is not a middle child but the younger of two. Same situation about the hands on one on one thing. He had to know what everyone else was doing instead of concentrating on his work. Needless to day we spent many an evening finishing work that he did not complete in school along with homework. My DS definitely does not want to do things he does not like or is not interrested in. He even had his desk right next to the teachers in K and in 1st and did not care it was not big deal to him, I think he liked it. I threatened to wash his mouth out with soap once and he replied "That's OK I like soap." I know exactly how you feel but it does get better. My DS now knows what is expected of him and what needs to be done in accordance with his school work. He would rather not go to school but that is not a choice. He had been at private school until this year after putting up with the complaining and battles we put him in public school this year. He is doing great, likes his teacher is making friends but still HATES the homework especially math. The teachers have all loved his personality and he made them laugh but he definitely is a challenge. I feel for you I have shed numerous tears over this but it will be OK after all your DS is only in Kindergarten. Give it some time.
I'd go in and see how you think his behavior compares to his classmates. Was he in preschool? If he was, did his teachers there say that his behavior was more impulsive or active than the other kids? If he wasn't, he may not be prepared for the structure of a schoolday. Full-day kindergarten can be an adjustment, even if he was in preschool, but I would think that he'd have settled into the routine after a month of school. I don't know enough about your ds but I'd think that 6 hours a day for a month would give the teacher (especially one who has taught for 30 years) enough time to have noticed some ADHD tendancies. Would she be willing to set up a sticker chart for him, where he could be rewarded for each half-hour of good behavior? Then it could come home with him and he'd earn time to watch a cartoon, ride his bike with you or your dh, etc.
I really think you going in and seeing how he acts yourself is the best next step in a situation like this. {{{Hugs}}}
Gosh Mia, I don't know what to say, I think we (society) are awfully hard on kids these days, there are a lot of expectations at a very early age. I remember all I did in K was colour and sing songs, I loved my teacher and would kiss her good-bye every day. Things have changed, but I'm not always sure for the better.
My oldest who is 2-1/2 sounds a lot like your son, when he is disciplined he often looks like it doesn't bother him one bit, but I've changed my tactics a bit and make him say sorry and I can hear the remorse in his voice. I found we were being harder on him every day as it seemed we were not getting through, but each child is so different, I've finally realized that it does impact him, he just shows his feelings differently then what you would expect.
If it were me I would go back and talk to her again and tell her exactly how you felt by some of her comments. I think she was insenstive to your feelings.
Hugs.
There are lots of things to consider here. Good questions posted above about preschool. Is this his first school experience? It doesn't sound like he's 'young' for K. Could be the all-day program, especially if he's not had school before. Do they have a rest time or a nap time? That's critical to the success of an all-day program, but some schools don't understand that so they don't have one.
Just based on what you said, I have more issues with the teacher! I have said before "I don't know what to do anymore" after EVERY avenue had been taken, and that was with severe behavior problems where we found out that something else was going on. Also, keep in mind that IT's AGAINT THE LAW for the teacher to attempt to diagnose anything. She can get into SERIOUS trouble for even suggesting that your child has ADHD. From what you posted, I just have a bad attitude about the teacher, so I'm sorry! 
If he was in preschool of some kind and had no problems there, then a)it could be all day that's bugging him , or b)it could be the way the classroom is run. This is very judgemental, and I know that and whoever doesn't like it can just not like it, but if she's been teaching K for 30years, WOW. Sure, there are 30 yr. teachers who can keep up with best practices in EC curriculum, but that has rarely been my experience. My experience with 30 yr. teachers in EC is that children don't move, they sit, they are quiet, period. When that doesn't happen, it's the child's fault. JMO. Possibly the classroom isn't structured in a developmentally appropriate way, with constant movement, frequent activity changes, manipulative for every subject, and freedom to discover and explore in a structured environment. If he's got the worst desk she's ever seen, then she's got choices a)remove his writing tools unless being used or b)(my choice) contact the parent and ask that he stay after or during recess/lunch that he clean his desk.
I agree that I would observe in a heartbeat. Just spend the day or half the day "visiting" your son's classroom. It's really no big deal and you will gather a lot of info about the class, the teacher, other children, AND your son. Sure, he'll be on his better behavior for a while, but honestly if you spend the day and he IS having serious behavior probs, he won't be able to keep that up for long so you'll get a good observation. I would start there.
Also, hearing "nothing" at the end of the day for K's is the norm, so I wouldn't take that as true description of the day.
Ohhh! This topic gets me going. I think the vast majority of "ADHD" kids are kids who are either kinesthetic learners or just busy kids. There are some simple things that can make their life much easier. For starters, how much desk sitting are they doing? They should have plenty of time to move about the classroom, play in centers, go to PE, go to recess, etc. For every desk activity there needs to be an alternating physical activity. For some of this busy kids, have them sit on an exercise ball (they come in all sizes) gives them enough of a workout maintaining their balance with feet on the floor that the fidgits stop. For other kids just having a stress ball to squeeze during desk time helps them out. As for the smiling when disciplined, sounds like you know your son best. My youngest has been described by one of my friends as "a party waiting to happen." Nothing gets him down. I can get furious with him and read him the riot act and 2 seconds later he's all huggy and lovey. It just doesn't phase him.
I'd maybe go observe and make sure he is having enough time to be busy and explore. 5 y/o boys (and girls) should not be confined to a desk all day.
Sorry to be quick with a reply but I have to leave on an errand.
Yes, ds went to preschool for 1 year, part-time. And yes, they have a rest period, the local prisoners even made them quilts to lay on.
I'm sorry if there were more questions or something I should comment on, but I'll check back in later.
Thanks so much, it's so nice to have feedback for something so stressful for me!
I have to agree with Deanna about the older teachers (sorry) and their expectations and now that I think back my DS's teachers have all been "old school" teachers and maybe that's why this year so far has been good, his teacher is let's say my age and has a different approach that the others. Pam I love the "party waiting to happen" that's us. Also I am going to get one of those exercise balls you mentioned to use at home for him to use before starting homework never thought of that. Mia I hope everything works out for you, these ladies have given great advice, hope you don't mind that I'm taking some of it!!! I wish I was a member here three years ago when I was in your shoes.
Ditto everyone above.I'd go in and observe.How old is this teacher?Maybe she can't handle the busy ones anymore.Some teachers just want perfect little soldiers today.What happened to letting kids be kids.They're suppose to be busy.I work in a pharmacy and I can't believe how much we dispense for ADHD these days.These meds are over prescribed.I feel bad for the kids that really need these meds because they are falling through the cracks because now its become the norm to take these meds.Is there another Kindy class that you might be able to swith him to.Sometimes its as simple as a personality conflict.Kids usually listen better to anybody but there parents.((HUGS))I'm sorry you're dealing with this so early in the school year.
Ditto others and I completely agree with you Pam about ADHD! For me, 50 kids per year for 7 years and I couldn't even tell you all that were on or supposed to be on ADHD meds. I think out of all of those kids, I had 2 (and I could name them) that I really believe had an attention disorder. The rest of them just lacked the necessary activity at home. Many of the parents *I* had just wanted to get that label so they could Child Disability. Arrghhhhh!
I have to say Timmy was diagnosed with ADD/ADHD in Kindergarten. To ease the teachers mind and yours ask her to send home the test they give parents to determine how you feel your child behaves. It is easy to fill out you just have to make sure you answer truthfully. It took me all of 15 minutes. And that can tell you right there where he probably stands.
I will say allot of kids that have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD are only on meds because the parents don't want to deal with the fact that their kids need more at home stimulation and activity and attention. By the sounds of it that is not the case.
Good luck.
Ditto PamT - in addition to kinestheninc learners - some kids who exhibit the same behaviors you describe are highly gifted and are just bored or operating on a higher frequency than most kids. He also could just have some issues with sensory integration which mimic ADHD.
Continue to monitor what's going on and if the teacher is still on him, ask her to request an evaluation. My guess is that for what you are describing, the school district won't do an eval.
I'm sorry you are going through this.
I'm not sure if you answered this, is he one of the youngest or oldest in his class? That could have something to do with it.
Hugs,
Ame
Thanks everyone, I can spend a morning or two in his class next week and I'll check for everything that you all have brought up (the structure, activities, behavior of ds & teacher, etc.) and I think I'll also get him a stress ball (thanks Pamt).
His preschool focused on writing his name and the alphabet but not much else academically, it was mostly social and constructive play - so it's a good point that having to sit still and do so much work may be contributing to his acting so fidgitty. It could also be that she just isn't catching his behavior soon enough or sternly enough.
Today I asked ds if he'd had his 'clip' moved down on the chart - No, but he did the other day. Did he get it moved back up? "Yes, but not for a long time because she forgot about it." Either ds is mistaken about her forgetting, or she really didn't pay enough attention to his good behaviors, and/OR he just plain doesn't care about the darn clip enough in order to be motivated by it. I will find out when I visit the class.
Heaventree, I wanted to mention that I think a lot of two year olds act like discipline doesn't matter to them. I've had mine laugh and run away from me, lol, they think our angry faces look so funny! We also for a while came down extra hard on this ds (when he was between 3 & 4) because it just seemed like nothing was effective. Then I started hating how it felt like I was always on him for something or the other and it just really really bothered me so I started doing things the opposite of the way this teachers 'clip' chart works. Ds tries so much harder to have good behavior when he's been praised. I wish teachers would reward more for good actions! Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I think you're headed in the right direction by having your ds apologize which helped you notice his true feelings. All those strong and silent men out there were once extra sensitive little boys who shut down their emotions when feeling attacked (imho).
I also appreciate the thoughts of those who said this would get better as time goes on. It feels good to not feel so hopeless. And because of all the replies I feel a lot more grounded in my thoughts, not so darn confused!
Ame, I just saw your post. Interesting about being gifted, my dh was(is?) 'gifted' and very bored with school (even dropped out of HS). He has mentioned the same possibility for ds but I brushed it off in my attempt not to excuse ds's behavior. I will keep an eye out for this.
Dh also brought up the possibility that ds is so used to following/being with his older brother that he is lost without him and just trying to find his own way. I'm not sure what to think of that idea.
And he's 5.5yo, so in the middle age wise. Someone asked about his school work - he is getting good marks on everything and is finishing his work but having difficulty with writing the alphabet so we do extra practise at home. And his messy desk is mostly glue I gathered (he's a messy eater too) - I'd make him clean his own mess too, but I guess if she wants to clean it then okay, or maybe there isn't time to have kids do much clean up.
I assumed the messy desk was something deliberate!! Okay, so if he's just messy with glue, so what??!! ALL kids are messy with glue. I really took her comment that it was the messiest desk to mean that he was coloring on it or deliberately pouring glue all over, etc. I wouldn't make him clean it up unless he was being a stinker and messing it on purpose. Sorry - a little confusion on my part there.
I have never seen a "test" sent home by the teacher as a prelim eval for ADHD because only a licensed psychologist/school psychologist can diagnose that through a school eval. If you end up thinking it's a possibility, then I would ask your doctor for the eval. Every ADHD eval I had to complete as a teacher was from a doctor or psychologist. If you request testing through the school, then that goes through the school psych.
I thought eval more for other things that might be interfering with his education - SID, giftedness, an LD, etc. - and mainly to stop the teacher from picking on him. I was not suggesting that an eval would test for ADHD.
Ame
Thanks Mia, I have drastically changed my discipline style with Matthew in the past two weeks as I too was hating the way I felt and it really wasn't helping just seemed to be making things worse. We now do eye level talk, with an apology and lots of hugs and kisses and of course positve reinforcement for good behaviour.
Gee, this was a post about making you feel better, but somehow you have turned that around and made me feel better. You must be a great Mom! Thanks
Ame- I wasn't directing that at you, or anyone really. I was more responding to Tonya's post regarding...
>>"ask her to send home the test they give parents to determine how you feel your child behaves. It is easy to fill out you just have to make sure you answer truthfully. It took me all of 15 minutes. And that can tell you right there where he probably stands"<<
I've never seen anything like that from the school that isn't a psych eval given by the psych with a report from the parent if needed. G&T isn't psych tested in our district though, although everything else pretty much is. That's all I meant.
I agree wholeheartedly about the "take home" test - as if 15 or even 50 questions answered by a parent and reviewed by heaven knows who could be any kind of a diagnosis. And I think, absolutely, that the teacher has no business even thinking about a "diagnosis", let alone mentioning it to you - that is way out of line. And especially after only one month.
The "middle child" think - that's pop psychology. And, is the opposite of much that I've read about middle children. I've read a lot of opinions that middle children are easy going, easy to get along with, fairly unstressed children - they don't have the stress of being the oldest and don't have the pampering of being the baby. That was certainly my experience with my middle child.
Definitely you need to observe. One thing I'd look for is whether the girls are considered the good students more than the boys - girls tend to accept and go along with the requirements of sitting quietly, not being impulsive, etc. than boys at that age. (I sometimes think boys should start kindergarten a year later than girls, because they do generally mature more slowly in social and "acceptable behavior" areas, as well as fine motor control - like the alphabet.)
See if you can find the issue of Newsweek a couple of weeks ago that talks about the stresses of kindergarten and first grade these days. It's the September 3 issue - see if this link works: Newsweek
As for the desk - he can certainly scrub his desk.
I don't know, Mia, but I wonder if you have more of a teacher problem than a son problem. Though I'm sure that part of it is all the pressure that is on schools today to test, test, test and meet score requirements, including in kindergarten.
It's been so long since I had to deal with schools, I'm probably not much help. I do remember, however, that Scott's kindergarten teacher was very frustrated with him because he wasn't paying attention when she was teaching the alphabet. She refused to believe that he already knew how to read, until I almost literally forced her to sit there and listen while he read from a reading book from her shelf. Of course he wasn't going to pay attention when she was teaching something he already knew.
The problem for kids and kindergarten is that unless they have been in pretty much full time preschool for a year or two, this is their first experience with a full day of having to conform to what the teacher says and what the entire group is doing. And I think one month is not enough time in which to have learned this. That's why kindergarten is a full year - so the school can take kids who don't have the work in group, sit quietly and listen, work on what the teacher tells you to do instead of what you want to do, kinds of skills and learn them before the "real learning" starts. Which is what it used to be. Kindergarten really is - as the Newsweek article says - the "new first grade", and for children who haven't had at least a year of at least half-day pre-school before kindergarten, I think it can be really demanding and difficult.
And I think a good teacher would know or would learn how to help children learn these things instead of being at her wits end at the end of one short month - especially with a child she finds "smart and charming and a "sweetheart"."
Definitely observe - at least 3 or 4 times for at least a couple of hours each time, and at different times of the day.
(I do understand how hard it is to deal with a 5 year old you can't intimidate by scolding or "moving a clip" - and the wish (which, imo, should definitely have remained unspoken) to smack him - I have 2 sons who were like that. But for her to speak of wanting to smack your son even in a joking manner - way out of line.)
What's really funny is that I have had this conversation up on my computer screen for a couple of hours, and I finally got around to reading it and replying to it, and it turns out that I am basically echoing Ginny who posted before I did but I didn't read it until after I sent mine through!
I totally understand where you are coming from. We went through something similar in 1st grade, and my ds' teacher had been teaching for 30 years as well and it was just as Deanna said seems to be common with older teachers.
My biggest concern about your ds' teacher is that she said that she "just wanted to smack him." That would have gotten me into the principal's office with her. You would think that after 30 years, she would know that that is just not appropriate to say to a parent you hardly even know, and you would also think that she has dealt with a kid like this before, at least once?
I did daycare until my ds was 5, so there was always something going on, something fun to do and someone to do it with. Then all of a sudden kindergarten comes along and the kid is supposed to sit still and listen to a teacher he finds less than interesting and basically act like a little robot for her? I don't think so. Thankfully my ds did okay in kindy, at least, if he didn't I didn't hear about it.
But problems really started to arise in 1st grade. It didn't help that the teacher was also dealing with (or NOT dealing with, depending on how you look at it) 3 other little trouble makers in her class that year, which resulted in her pulling her hair out and threatening to retire that year. She told me that my son was lazy and had no regard for her direction or the quality of his work. Halfway through the year she also said she had all but given up on the disruptive kids - if they didn't want to learn, then she wasn't going to waste any more time on them. My son was also facing other issues that she didn't address and that I didn't really even know about until well into 2nd grade. He was getting bullied by one very troubled boy and he was dealing with low self esteem because he was comparing himself to an Asian boy in the class who was already reading at a 4th grade level and doing multiplication (being pushed by his parents) and who was always going up to my son and bragging about how smart he was. This Asian brat even came up to ME one day at a classroom party and said to me that my son was stupid!!!! How we ever got him through that year I will never know. Had I known then what I know now I would have stood up more for him.
Then in 2nd grade, we found out more about the bully and took care of that situation with a wonderful substitute teacher who started out in the first semester as a student teacher and was hired in the 2nd semester as a sub and ended up finishing out the year for the regular teacher who went on medical leave. He scooted through that year still by the skin of his teeth. His teachers passed him that far only because they knew he was capable but just needed discipline.
Then in 3rd grade we finally had the school social worker test him. She gave him the TOVA Test- Test Of Variable Attention and found out that he actually had the opposite of Attention Deficit- he was HYPER-attentive. He had a hard time moving from one task and paying attention to the next because his mind was still stuck on the last task. His 3rd grade teacher had to try a few extra times to get him to pay attention to her when she prompted the class to put away one thing and move on to something else. It seems like he isn't listening or focusing, but it's actually just the opposite- he is so focused on what he is doing that he may not be aware that he is supposed to be doing something else, or he may not want to. He does get frustrated at times, and that makes it more difficult. But once we found that out, he really felt better about himself and the teacher adjusted her approach with him, and he took off and did everything he was supposed to and had a great finish to his 3rd grade year.
Sorry that was so long, but I have BTDT and just wanted you to know that you shouldn't sweat it. If i could do it over again, I would have addressed the teacher's approach more with her, and I would have spent more time in the classroom. Your son is probably just a normal kid who has a different learning style, and the teacher may need to take a different approach with him. My gosh, all kids aren't like little robots that can be programmed the same way.
One other very important thing to do is to make sure that he knows that just because he isn't at home and isn't around you that he can't just ignore all the rules and get away with anything he wants. There may be a disconnect in his mind between home and school. He needs to connect home with school, and he needs to know that your rules and standards of behavior carry over into school. So in this way, you are backing up his teachers, and he needs to see consequences at home if he is not respectful of the teachers at school or rewards on days he is good at school.
If the teacher cares to take the time, a sticker chart or some other reward system would be wonderful. In the first semester of 2nd grade, what the wonderful student teacher did for my son was give him tape- several pieces of tape stuck to his desk- and every time he didn't pay attention and had to be redirected or didn't do his work he would lose a piece of tape. If he had tape left at the end of the day, he would get to pick a prize out of a goody bag. In the beginning he would start out in the morning with 8 pieces of tape, but then eventually she would only start his morning out with 3 pieces of tape. That's how far he had progressed. Problem was, when she left, the game was over. The second semester there was a new student teacher who didn't quite have the same degree of talent as the first student teacher.
Those are just a couple of the things we have tried, but he seems to be doing just fine so far. At this point in 4th grade, they are doing 3rd grade review in preparation for the state standardized tests next month. We'll see what happens after that.
Taking away his recess is what jumps out at me. Why oh why oh why do teachers think that taking away the recess of a child who misbehaves BECAUSE HE IS ACTIVE (fidgeting, talking, out of his seat, etc. as opposed to a child doing something WRONG like name-calling, stealing, cheating...) is going to improve his behavior?? Do they not realize that taking away that child's only time to run off some of that energy and get refocused for the afternoon is only going to make him worse? I used to get SO irritated when I'd be on recess duty when I worked in the schools, and there sitting on the bench was a row of the kids who needed recess the most!!! I used to tell them to run laps around the playground, that way I could still enforce what the other teacher told them in that they were punished and not getting to play with their friends, but they were still able to burn off some of that energy making them MUCH more likely to be attentive and cooperative for their afternoon classes.
Ditto, ditto, ditto Pam and Zoie!!! I'm having my own issues with my child's school and I don't want to let those feeling overlap into any advise to you, so I'm just going to let the others give you advice here. I will offer you and e-hug, though. Oh, I will also say that whenever my ds's class would glue when he was in the early elementary years (he's in 8th grade now) I always knew which paper was his because it was COVERED in glue!!! More is better, right?!? More hugs.
It was a evaluation from the school psych, the teacher sent it home for me to do and she as well did 1 herself on his school behavior. The school psych then went over them and determined if he needed to be looked at further. It wasn't just a crack pot test it was a state approve psych evaluation for child with ADHD. It was then taken to our Dr with the psych eval and what the school psych determined and then our Dr went further into it before deciding that he did indeed need to be on meds.
Tonya, it sounds like the questionare you did, was like one I did for my ds, when his teacher suggested he have a fine motor skill evaluation. I had to fill out a long questionare about his past habits, etc. They used this along with the evaluation to make a diagnosis.
I think your ds's teacher was way out of line when she called you. It sounds almost like she just wanted to vent to you. I know my youngest ds had a harder time in K. It was just so structured, and he is so active. He did settle down after the first couple of months. He is now in 1st and doing extremely well, he even got student of the month for Sept.
If it makes you feel any better, I was up at school helping ds's teacher last week. There was one boy that was all over the place, was having a hard time listening, etc. Basically, he was acting a lot like your ds(from the teacher's discription). Well, when I pulled him out for reading, he was reading at a wayyyy advanced level. It seems to me this child was probably bored! I am sure that is why he was having trouble in class.
I would definitley talk to his teacher and arrange to help in class. Tell her you want to see how he acts, so you can help fix whatever problem he may be having. I am sure she will welcome the help. After you see how he acts, maybe you can work with her to come up with some ways to help him in class. I know that my ds really loves school this year. I think part of it is because his teacher does so many learning activities. He is not one that likes to just sit and do worksheets, color, etc. She has them up doing so much, it is easier for him since he is so active. Maybe, this teacher's style doesn't match well with your son's learning style.
I want to give everyone a continued thanks! I've read every post several times, and read them to my dh too. I'm still trying to sort everything out in my mind and all of you have helped so much with my focusing on solutions. Thanks ladies.
I'm very anxious/excited about spending some time in the class. I have 2 mornings available this week and I'm trying to arrange with dh some other times for one or the other of us to go in (I have a younger child at home that needs to be watched). I really can hardly wait to see how much of a problem there really is with either my ds or the teacher or both. I am having a very hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that he's giving her so much trouble - yes, he's difficult sometimes at home but we manage and to think about his teacher NOT being able to manage really blows my mind; it would have to be just horrible defiance on ds's part. And when I think that he's doing well on his work, and completing it at school I have a hard time envisioning that his behavior is all that bad - or else when would he have time to learn this stuff and do the work?
And I sent a stress ball to school with him today, along with a note requesting that he be allowed to use it during desk time in the hopes that it would help him focus. We even practiced with it last night - put it away for work time, look at the teacher, not the ball. He was very excited, just grinning up a storm, until this morning when I put it in his backpack and he said he didn't want to take it because he knew his teacher wouldn't let him use it. We'll see, he'll be home soon.
My youngest ds's Kindergarten teacher, who had been teaching for 25 years, told us at our first Parent-Teacher conference for him that he was the worst child she'd ever tried to teach in her WHOLE career. You can imagine how we felt when we walked out. He was a sweet, very smart, very quiet little boy. She said she thought he was a learning disability and an attention deficit problem. Come to find out he was BORED out of his ever loving mind. He had already learned everything she was teaching watching his 2 older brothers learn it.
I wish you well. It is so hurtful. And we went through testing after testing. He was just a little boy who marched to a different beat and it took a good teacher 2 years later to figure out what made him tick before things fell into place for him. And we were doing everything that we could on our end.
That is such a sad story Imamommyx4 (with a happy ending). Don't these teachers know how much it hurts to hear things like that? And shouldn't they be trained to spot kids who are bored because they already know the material? I'm so glad you ended up with that good teacher and a solution; it must have been hell for all of you until then.
Ds told me the teacher wouldn't let him use the stress ball. I'll be calling her tonight and I'm trying to make myself feel NICE before then. Right now I am between feeling anger about how she handled the 'talk' with me and huge concerns about how this will work out.
My oldest had this same teacher for the last half of K. She would get very upset that he didn't like coloring pictures she handed out, he would just quickly scribble a mess and then draw on the blank back side. We finally reached a deal that if he would try his best on the coloring then he could turn it over and draw to his hearts content. She was willing to work with me on that so I'm hopeful we can now figure out something to help middle ds.
Mia,
I think you need to change your son's class. It sounds like his learning style and her teaching style just don't mix - and she seems too set in her ways to change. The stress ball was a great idea! If she were progressive and interested in helping your son she would have let him use it.
She should be thrilled that you came up with a possible way to help him focus and behave more as he is expected in a traditional school environment.
Boys are just not genetically programmed to behave the way a school environment expects at that age. They are physical learners. They are programmed for motion and physicality. If this teacher cannot understand that then run the other way!
You can try observing, you can try all sorts of things, but if it's a basic conflict between the way he learns and the way she teaches, please save yourself some trouble and just change classes. Look for a younger, less experienced teacher.
Ame
The mere fact that she told you his behavior made her feel like "she wants to smack him" is a dead giveaway he needs to be out of that class.
ditto Ame on her post.
Ditti Ame as well. I think you would be well served to move him quickly and find a more suitable match!
Best of luck!
When I called the teacher last night she said she didn't let him use the ball because she thought it was a toy and ds didn't give her the note I sent. She said she thought it was a good idea and that she already has some her other "hyper" kids that use one (then why didn't she suggest that to me?! - and that word Hyper again!). She also wants to move him to the desk next to hers so she can give him more attention - I told her to please ask him to look in her eyes when she wants to know he's hearing her and asked if she's been giving him some positive feedback - she says she is praising his efforts.
All in all she sounded much more cheerful and positive (which is how she normally was as oldest ds's teacher - very fun and upbeat). She said, "I don't know what you did but his behavior has been so much better. He's being so cute, telling me h "I'm walking quiet" and "I'm trying not to talk". All we did was tell ds to stay at his desk, look at the teacher, and be as quiet as a mouse. Guess he's got the mouse part down, lol! Dh took him out for icecream for trying so hard and doing well at school.
I'm pleased things seem to be going better, but I'm still very concerned about that 1st phone call. It's not so easy to have kids transfered to a different teacher and the other classes have at least 5 more kids in them, so I think as long as she tries then I will too - but most of my decision will rest on what I see in the classroom interactions (I will go for the 1st time this afternoon and continue to unexpectedly drop in and stay throughout the month). I'm not satisfied yet.
I also discussed the possiblity that ds is bored. This 1st part of the year is mostly about learning colors, shapes, the alphabet and numbers, phonics - all of which ds already knows and he gets perfect marks on his papers. (just his handwriting is not so good - and that glue stuff, lol) I offered to bring in some more advanced papers for ds to work on if he finishes his regular work and she agreed.
I agree the older teachers can be very stuck in their ways and out of tune with new stuff, but the younger inexperienced ones can have problems too. Oldest ds's teacher last year was in her 2nd year of teaching and once confessed to me that she was having a real hard time controlling the entire classroom and didn't know what more to do; she was also overwhelmed because she was taking classes at night for her masters, plus she rewarded them all with candy and pop which I think made the problem worse! Discipline was not her strong point. Ugh.
Btw, pop, candy, all junk food, is now banned from the school!
The other thing that you might suggest is something my oldest DDs (she has adHHHHd) teacher started in 3rd grade. She she got in trouble for talking or something to do with being hyper instead of making her miss recess she made her run laps around the playground the whole time to run off more energy than just swinging or something like that would. I still use this at home sometimes.. I make her run around the back yard a few times if she has homework and can't sit still.
I am so glad! It sounds like she's not as set in her ways as I inferred from your posts. Glad she's working with you!
Ame
I'm glad she's working with us too, but I'll reserve judgement on how set in her ways she is until I see her in action a few times. I'm still concerned about a lot of things she said, and the way she said them, but I feel more confident now that a solution will be found. Thanks again everyone, I wouldn't be managing this so well without your thoughts.
Bad, bad news. The Principal just called and she very angry (clipped, stern tone and short sentences). She didn't say ADHD, she said, "over active, very over active". Ds was sent to her by the teacher, I'm unclear what for and so was she (she asked ds why he was there and he said because he poured milk over his head but he wasn't wet). She asked if his teacher has spoken to me about his behavior and I explained about the last few days.
I called dh and he said to just pull him out of school, that he's not ready. I don't think that was helpful and I'm in tears over this. I don't understand any of it.
I agree with your hubby, pull him out. Look for a 1/2 day private program, or less. Let him mature a year, at least look at your options.
Your son's teacher sent him to the principal's office by HIMSELF? With no explanation of any sort?? And the principal called you and STILL had no reason why he was there?? What's up with THAT?? What was the principal going by when she said he was very over active? Was he acting up in HER office? If not, WHERE did she get her info from since it sounds like she did not communicate with this teacher...
I think they owe you some major explanations. They need to give you specific explanations of what he has done and how he is acting "over active, very over active". Just saying that is not acceptable.
You may need to pull him out, but you need an explanation before you can make any kind of an informed decision.
Not know if you are from a big or small town you might look into other public schools in the area if you can't afford a private school. I know in the city I live in that some of the Ks are 1/2 day and some are full day.
But you definately need to find out what is going on so you don't end up in the same situation at the next place.
Sorry for the short reply, I got interupted. First let me preface my post with I am having similar ugly issues at school and have spent many days crying about it of late. But in general, you can't make a teacher like your kid, and they do like some better than others. It is a shame that they can't give kids a bit of a break and let them figure things out a bit. But they don't, and really that is life.
So you have to decide do you want to fight all year? Really at this stage, that is where you are headed. What good will this do for your son? Will it harm him?
So what are your options? What did he do last year? Did he have a good year last year? Some kids do just take a bit longer.
Really I look back and wished i had waited a year for kinder. Not that it would of made 3rd grade any better, but my son has matured a lot and maybe it wouldn't of been so negative. My son's teachers actions are more just ignore him. Well that is all well and good, until I picked him up from school at the end of day yesterday with a temp over 102. They didn't even notice just how sick he was. He has strep and is still very ill today.
As far as them not saying adhd. They legally can't, or you can have them pay for the med services and drugs. So they have those great key phrases that you are supposed to pass on to someone else, doens't pay attention, moves around a lot, very fidget, can't seem to stay on task, is very impulsive, etc.
It sucks having a kid that is more work than other kids, it sucks that teachers have to work so hard to like your child and accept him for who he is. I know, but you have to cry it out and then figure out what next. My dad tells me often...you can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results, so what are you going to change?
It certainly doesn't sound like the situation is being handled very well at all. It is time for a conference with you, your dh, the teacher, and the principal. Explain your concern that he may be bored and definitely mention your first conversation with the teacher and the remark that she could just slap him. I would be livid right about now. There is no reason for the principal and/or the teacher to react with anger and frustration towards you or your son. It may be nothing more than your ds is having trouble adjusting to the structure of a school environment, and the staff is supposed to be there to support that transition. It is unreasonable that they would expect perfection from a little guy just starting out.
If in the end you do decide to pull him out, it may worth a try to find some other form of schooling, like private or home school, or go to a different school in your district. Does your district have a school choice program where he could attend a different elementary school within the district?
((((((HUGS))))) and best of luck!
Oh thank you everyone. This is just unbelieavable. The Principal said the teacher wanted her to go to the class but she couldn't because she was dealing with other students. I assume if she'd gone to the class she would have found out what happened.
The Principal knows my ds and his actions because she spends a lot of time in the K classes helping out.
There are no private K's here, and no part time. We could send him back to preschool, home school, or transfer to another school in another district (no others in the same district).
The thing is that we NEVER heard a word from preschool about behavior like this. Not anything. I think I will call his preschool teacher and see what she thinks, maybe she was more accepting but noticed something. And we most certainly will have a conference with everyone. I am beyond shocked to have gotten the call from the Principal.
Like I've said this ds has been harder to manage than our other kids, but not ever have we not been able to control him and not ever has ADHD entered my head before. In fact sometimes we think he is lazy, needs a lot of pushing to do things he doesn't want to (stubborn may be a better word).
And Kaye, that is so sad and distrubing that it wasn't noticed how sick your son is. How awful. I'm sorry you're going through all this, and have been. I'm not a fighter, I don't want a fight about this now or for years to come. I want solutions and it's all so frustrating. And I'm very concerned about how this might harm ds - either keeping him in school the way it is or taking him out when he might think it's because he's 'bad'.
I understand about you not wanting to fight this. I wasn't a fighter myself. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to be the "Mother Bear," (as Cat knows all too well, too. ;-)
I had a wake-up call when my son was in 1st grade (had nothing to do with school) and I realized that there are too many risks in this world for us parents not to be alert at all times to the obstacles that our children come up against. Stupid teachers being one of them.
Talking to his pre-school teacher is a good idea, and maybe ask her if she would like to offer some insight for you to take to his K teacher and the principal.
((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))
Just spoke to his preschool teacher who said he was a handful but nothing she couldn't handle. She'd just tell him "Oh no, we don't do that here," and he wouldn't like it but he'd obey her. She said his biggest problem was getting upset when he couldn't do his work perfectly but he was not a discipline problem.
Just out of curiousity, is he on any kind of meds? Allergies, etc?
Mia,
You need to have his class changed ASAP. He's bored out of his tree - Secondly, you want an evaluation - especially a Sensory Integration Evaluation. Many, many kids who have SI issues are misdiagnosed (labeled) AD/HD. I am in no way saying that this is your son's problem (or that he even has a problem ), but it seems to me something to be considered from what you've written.
If he already knows his stuff academically, then I feel taking him out of K would be a mistake. Use this year as a training ground for social/emotional/behavioral skills.
Again from what you've written (especially the last part about being a perfectionist) it sounds like he may be gifted and bored.
Hugs. My son's preschool teacher sounds similar to your son's K teacher. Against her better judgement I put him in K (he missed our cut-off by 19 days) early. She found him to be hyper, emotional, rigid in some ways, just not ready. I knew he was bored and told her so. Now he is in K and doing fabulously.
Hugs again, I know how stressful this can be.
Ame
Yes, he has allergies, runny nose and eczema; had his adenoids removed. He was on Zyrtec for 2 years and we took him off that because of behavior issues - which improved immediately and dramatically. I posted here about that at a point when I was feeling very frustrated and someone linked to the Zyrtec problems. I mentioned all this to his teacher and she said she has many kids on medications, or with allergies, etc. but it was still no excuse for bad behavior.
Amecmom I'll mention the SI evaluation and boredom when we meet. Dh is out of town for several days so it may have to wait, if possible. Our oldest ds's preschool didn't think he was ready for K either, mostly social because of his excessive talking, but we put him in and he's doing great.
Ds is home and told me the same thing about pouring milk on his head, and that it dried. He said two other kids were being "funny" so he wanted to be funny, too. This must have happened at lunch and his teacher is not in the lunch room so I'm not sure about the whole sequence of events yet.
The Zyrtec was what I was wondering about. I was reaching for mine when I thought of your ds.
Randy had the same issues with Zyrtec. It made him less able to control his impulsive behavior - not good for a kids with SI disfunction. For most kids Zyrtec is fine - I guess. And it absolutely is an "excuse" for bad behavior! It's like telling a kid on speed to sit still! What allergy meds is he taking now? Randy has a sensitivity to all of them except nasonex and singulair. Even if he's not on any meds, the discomfort alone could be driving him nuts. In preschool I noticed that he followed right along with the least common denominator of behavior. It sounds like your son did the same thing today. Unfortunately, when a child already has a "reputation" he gets singled out for punishment.
I spoke to his teacher. This is what happened: Ds poured milk over his head and the table so the lunch monitor sent him to the bench in the office to sit out recess, along with another boy. Afterwards he's coming down the hall laughing and his teacher asks him why he was in the office, ds said he didn't know why. At that time the lunch monitor came by and said, "I'll remind you why." They ask him if he thought that was funny because he's laughing about it, and they tell him he made a big mess and it's not acceptable. At which point he starts crying and can't get control of himself. When he won't calm down the teacher calls for the Principal who has him sent to her office and that's when I get the call.
These are notes I made from the conversation with his teacher, I'd appreciate knowing what everyone thinks:
He has been moved to a large desk with another child across from him, far enough away that they can't talk (all the kids were moved around yesterday). He doesn't listen. He's talks too much. He can't sit still. He reacts by either smiling/laughing or crying; she agrees the smiling is a nervous reaction. He gets out of control so easily, it doesn't take much to get him started. He needs to learn to stay in control, to stay inside himself. He will obey her but then a half hour later he is on to something else. He pushes the limits. He uses up a glue stick every 2 days, his desk is covered with glue, she makes him scrub it himself.
On the other hand, he has been trying to behave. He is lots of fun and has lots to contribute during class discussions. In her heart (teacher's) she feels there should be a lot more play time, but with all they're required to learn it's just not possible; it's not at all like preschool and ds needs to understand this. She said, "Don't give up, he will come around. We're going to get this little boy where we want him to be."
I asked her to send a note home each day about his behavior. She said she doesn't have time for that but will use a marker to write either a smiley face, frown, or -- (for so so day) on his hand so we know how he did and can deal with it at home.
Btw, there are 14 kids in the class, not 18 like I wrote before. The other 2 K classes have 18 to 20 kids, with class aides as well as the teacher.
Continuing to roll my eyes...
She was at least encouraging when she said "Don't give up."
Well, I just don't know.... It is obvious that he is stressed, and there must be a reason why. That is what we have to find out, and then we will have the answer as to why he is acting out.
It could be several things- maybe he just doesn't understand what is expected of him, and with all the people who are correcting his behavior all the time (lunch lady, teacher, principal) he just literally doesn't know which way to sneeze.
I can't believe that they expect these little bundles of energy to sit still like robots all day and just listen to the teacher and not get fidgetty or uptight. Even 10 minutes running around outside can do wonders for their attention span. It would be nice if the teacher could just quietly object and take the kids outside for a short impromptu recess once every day or so.
I think that lunchroom lady made a big deal as well. Yes, it's frustrating when kids make messes and think it's funny, but it's not worth getting all wound up about. Inform the kids that it is not acceptable behavior and let it go. If it becomes a repetitive issue, then more stringent measures should be taken.
...and she doesn't have time for a quick note... I can't believe that, since my son's K and also his 2nd grade teachers sent home 2 or 3 notes a week.
Maybe she would have time for an email? I corresponded quite frequently with my son's 3rd grade teacher by email last year, and it is actually more comprehensive than a phone call or writing a quick note. That way too, she can read and answer your messages at her own convenience.
I am having trouble with my DD who is in 4th grade this year with her behavior and work. So her teacher and I email back and forth about 2 or 3 times a week. And these are not short 2 line emails. I think taht the teacher should make time to send you home info. Or maybe instead of sending it home with him she could email you after school or something.
I didn't "have time" as a K teacher to send notes home daily either, but I did it. They were not complete sentences, they were more like "notes" :
Hit Suzy in the head during centers
Dumped paint on floor
Chewed on his crayons
That type of thing. I also used smile face codes, too, but honestly I have a problem with the teacher not having time to send a note home daily. If he's that much of a problem and she really wants to keep you informed, she'll send the notes. That doesn't fly with me and believe me, I was STRESSED teaching K!! I had a very low-income, behavior-challenged population.
More later!!
My ds is having some seperation anxiety in 1st grede. His teacher and I are communicating daily/every other day through email. Does the teacher have email??
Have you gone to help in class yet? I think seeing his behavior first hand, and watching how the teacher runs the class, is going to be the most help to you. It sounds like the teacher is making an effort, and wants your ds to do well. If you actually see what is going on, maybe it would be easier to work with the teacher to find a solution, so everyone is happier.
I only have a few minutes, so I'm sorry for being brief. I've been to the class a few times now, just not at a time when he's been acting out more than any other kid. So far I like what I see, the teacher is fun, uses an upbeat voice, the kids rotate to 'centers' so they aren't on one subject too long. I still need to attend many more times.
As for her not having time for notes - she explained that at the end of the day her 14 students are literally going in 11 different directions (home w/parent, staying for after school program, on the bus home, to the boys & girls club, etc.) and she has to supervise all this. I do have her home phone # but not an email addy.
Thanks everyone!
Sorry, this is a little off-topic but her FOURTEEN students???? What a DREAM COME TRUE!! I can't imagine the wonderful things that could be done with only 14 in a class. She would have had a coronary supervising 25 PER SESSION on her own at the end of the day.
Sorry, just had to laugh. That's just too much.
I'm glad you like what you're seeing in her classroom though!
Ditto, Deanna! My son's K class had 23 students!
You know, this topic has just really been on my mind.
I want to add to what you said, Mia, and something you may want to watch and see if your ds' teacher does, and that is positive reinforcement.
That wonderful student teacher my son worked with in 2nd grade (the one who returned as a sub later that year) sent home notes with my son written TO my son, and I have saved each and every one of them. They were such positive notes praising him for how hard he had been working and how well he paid attention, etc. They came home at least once every week or so. It made him feel very good about his days, and I always made big deals out of them, even posting them on the fridge door and taping them to my computer monitor.
And his 2nd grade class had 22 students!
Cocoabutter those notes can be so important. I still have one that a HS teacher sent home to my parents. I didn't get a lot of praise and that note really boosted my self-esteem. That 2nd grade sub of your son's is a real gem.
This teacher does write positive notes on ds's papers, always smiley faces & stickers, + usually a word that matches a letter they're studying "Wonderful Work!" when they study W's, etc. Sometimes a more personal note. In class she is positive and praises often, but I see some things as negative even though they're something some kids might appreciate (such as the 'clip' chart she uses - I see this as more of a public humiliation).
The school overall does an excellent job of rewarding students hard work - hallway 'runs' (they get to run through the halls yelling and everyone else stands at the sides cheering), lunch with a teacher or the Principal, their name on the marquis board outside, getting to help with special duties, etc.
I hope those teachers with 20+ kids in the class have some help. Is this all day K? I can't imagine the stress of trying to keep up with so many different needs even part time! Luckily at our school no class in any grade has more than 20 students, and I'm really grateful for that.
Btw, ds got a smiley face on his hand today - but a note from the bus driver about him not staying in his seat!
The school where I work has 21-22 kids in a kindergarten class. Some of the kids are a little challenging. They don't get an aide, until there are 25 in the class. I think they could use help, even with 21-22 kids, sometimes.
Hmmmm... I guess I am confused. She sounds like a Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde. On the one hand she's fun and upbeat and rewarding, and on the other she has fantasies of slapping your kid up side the head.
Looking back to Wednesday, you had talked with the teacher and on Tuesday he had a good day, and was trying very hard to be quiet and good. If you had a talk with him about the behavior he is expected to use at school, that may have been what helped him that day.
I would just remind him of this every day as he walks out the door for school so that it is fresh on his mind. Since he had more problems, then he probably just forgot. As I said, you may need to draw the connection for him between home and school, and that he is expected to follow the rules at school the same as if he were at home.
Jekll and Hyde is right. That's why I'm still concerned. I bet she didn't mean to let that slip out about slaping him! She is *very* cheerful in class - and the kind of person who will hug you when she 1st meets you. I really don't understand her frustration & tone during that 1st phone call but I intend to outright ask her!
Hopefully she will let us know every day how he does so we can follow up at home. And hopefully by continuing to visit the class I can figure out what's up with him, which is probably a combination of things.
Well, It's after midnight and I'm very tired but do want to post a little help here. Your child has allergies, and probably has a lot more! Here is a website for you:
http://www.feingold.org/us-pg.html
All the kids love those wonderful fruit roll-ups, red punches, etc. but Red #40, which they put in a lot of stuff has been linked to hyperactivity.
My 10 y/o step-daughter is quite the kinesthetic learner and did well homeschooling and I found a charter school while traveling which was center-based and used no text books. You might want to look for a charter school in your area. Sign up with GreatSchools.Net and you can read the Parent Reviews of the particular schools you are interested in. The Parent Reviews ARE the real reviews, aren't they?
That's all for now, it sounds like you've already been given a lot of good advice from the seasoned vets. Ciao for now!
Thanks for all that Justeatanapple1. We live in a small rural area, no Charter schools for a 100 miles and that's in the next state. And the only private schools are a Catholic one and a religious military one. We don't use roll-ups or red punch but I'll check out what else Red #40 is in - we hope to have him tested for allergies soon. I was recently tested (for everything but foods) and came up highly allergic to 25 differently things; I'm afraid I passed this on to my kids 
Any updates?
Nothing major, really. We've set up a reward system for ds for when he has a smiley face day - so far no problems. Also working on teaching him deep breathing for when he feels 'out of control'.
He's been behaving in class the times I've been there, and getting a smiley every day - yes, he's a little active (too excited I'd call it) and hands on, but nothing that has got out of control. I'm just waiting for a time when he's misbehaving so I can see the interaction between my son and the teacher - this is what I'm most curious about & concerned with. For now I'm leaning towards this not being a learning disability, ADHD, allergies or the like.
Dh will have time over the next 2 weeks to sit in during class and maybe he'll notice something I haven't.
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