Crying it out-not a debate

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I won't EVEN go into any more details but here are my questions, and keep in mind I've always been a fan of CIO and have done it in the past successfully.

When do you decide that CIO is not working for your child and try something different? Is there some timeframe?

Can a child hurt themselves from screaming so hard and so long? (This is not crying, this is SCREAMING)

I appreciate your thoughts and look forward to hearing them!

By Tripletmom on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:02 am:

(((HUGS))) I've heard CIO is not bad unless they are trying to hurt themselves.Some children are just more determined and strong willed than others.Is it just happening at nap/sleep times? Can you suggest-Natalie,If you go to bed like a big girl tonight, Mommy and you can have a tea party in the morning.I use to suggest things to do for the next day with Katie and it worked.She was just so upset sometimes that the fun day had to end.We never went through the screaming part,just the many excuses not to stay in bed.((HUGS))

By Eve on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:14 am:

I have such mixed feelings about this. I have to say just trust your instincts. There are different schools of thought. For an older child, I don't think it hurts them. With DD, what worked best for us was just a routine. Bath, snack, teeth, book and cuddle and then to bed. We also would put her in bed and "practice" calling Mommy and Daddy if she needed us. She still is not the best sleeper, but I think it's just part of who she is. DS on the other hand has been a great sleeper from the start.

One of my friends Dr's told her to let her DD cry all night if need be and if she fell asleep on the floor in her room, then that was ok too.

Will she go to sleep if you lay down with her?

Sorry I don't have the best advice here, but I think all kids are different and CIO is not the best choice for all of them. This is tough, I know. Hang in there.

By Christylee on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:49 am:

I'm not sure of a time frame really, we used this with Brendan and less than a week it was over with.

Have you switched her to the big girl bed yet? And I would NOT suggest laying down with her until she falls asleep becuase then you have another battle when you decide that she needs to fall asleep on her own. BTDT, not fun!

Thankfully B has always been a good sleeper unless he had ear issues going on he just now started the stalling :-) Mommy I need a drink, need to go potty, one more kiss, my blankets aren't right... the list goes on and on.

Good Luck, I know how sleeping issues disturb your whole day because you don't get the rest you need.

By Tripletmom on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 09:00 am:

Reds-if you want to e-mail me sherri behie @ sympatico.ca(no spaces) I found a great link by e-mail on toddler behaviour for you.Its very informative.

By Debbie on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 09:05 am:

I used CIO with my 1st ds. He cried about 15 minutes the first night, 10 the next, and that was it. Now, my 2nd ds was an entirely different story. We tried CIO, and he would literally scream and cry until he threw up in his bed. We tried it for several nights and it just got worse and worse. So, we tried another approach. With him, we had to do it gradually. We went from rocking him to sleep, to putting him in his crib and sitting in his room with him until he fell asleep. Then, we stood outside his door with it open, until he went to sleep. Next, we had him go to sleep on his own. It took about 2-3 weeks(I don't remember exactly). But, it was so much better then listening to him cry for hours. By the time, we just put him in his crib, he didn't cry at all. I, personally, think that CIO works for some, but is too much for others. I think you have to go with your gut. I knew after the first few nights of CIO that it wouldn't work for my 2nd ds. His ped. was the one who gave me the idea to gradually transition him into falling asleep on his own.

By Trina~moderator on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:05 am:

To echo the others, definitely follow your instincts. CIO isn't for every family, and not for every child. It worked well with DS but not with DD. After she cried and screamed for 8 hrs. straight, two nights in a row, I knew it wasn't going to work with her. We had to take a more gradual approach. Keep in mind illesses, teething, nightmares, night terrors and developmental stages and milestones also disrupt their sleep. Sit back, take in all the factors involved and listen to your instincts, no matter what others around you are saying.

By Kaye on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:10 am:

I thinkl you need to follow your mommy instinct here.

To answer questions...can CIO hurt them. No, not physically. It can cause some kids to throw up from the crying, this can seep into other times they cry they might throw up (blech).

How do you know when it isn't working? Ultimately when you feel like you have given it a good chance and you aren't comfortable with it anymore. This is really just a parenting choice.

Here is my story....I had a good friend. She was the CIO queen. She had a finished basement, so she would have her little one sleep in the bedroom down there during this phase. It worked great for her, she was far enough away from the crying etc. This wasn't my style of parenting, but ultimately the child wasn't in harms way. My kids slept over one night (long story). She had trouble getting my littlest one to sleep, he was 3. So she put him in their closet and basically did the same thing, just let him cio. He didn't really cry much, it was a master closet, so it was large. Well it did tramatize him. Just last year (2nd grade...age 8). He wrote something at school about it (and I quote, mom's friend locked me in the closet, when mommy was gone, i was scared and no one helpped). I got called in by his teacher....fun huh? We have moved and he doesn't actually remember this friend, but he does remember the incident. So my point is, each kid is different, this is a mommy parenting choice, what feels right to you?

We did CIO with the middle kid, for him he kind of cried the first night and then whimpered on subsequent nights. It was a whole different ball game with my first!

By Reds9298 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:42 am:

She has ALWAYS beena good sleeper. She's 2 and she knos how to get herself to sleep.We've never had to get her to sleep, which is good because we've always refused to unless it was illness or an extenuating circumstance. She's been going to sleep on her own since she was 6mths. old. mIt has alwyas beena piece of cake. I think this is paci related and power struggle related, and I think we're dealing with a double whammy.

Now she's not napping, screaming before bed for at least 30-40min., and waking in the night for 2-3 hrs and SCREAMING! You walk in the room and she's fine. She will tell us when there is something wrong with her. I've been asking her for weeks why she is screaming at sleeptimes to no avail. With a nap, without a nap, she's screaming.

For the first time today, her Memaw asked her why she screams at night instead of go to sleep and do you know what she said? For the FIRST TIME?? "I want my plug." I was floored. She was screaming before the plug went away, but now it's continually getting worse. The plug has been gone for 2 weeks. She did better without the plug the first four days than she is now.

What can I do? CIO is NOT working for her with this stage. I don't want to make a habit of rocking her to sleep in the middle of the night because I think that will be bad as well. This has for sure been her longest 'phase"...4 weeks of this with continually getting worse. Started with not wanting to go to bed at night, no biggie, then added in naps, now 2 out of 3 nights she's up SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF HER LUNGS for at least 2hrs. Like I said, you step one toe in the door and she's fine. Doesn't even request to be held (which we don't), just lays back down like there's nothing wrong. She wants US to substitute for the paci I think.

I thought the paci thing would be 2 nights maybe, but again I think this is combined with a power issue, too. We're ALL tired and I'm getting sick of this. I don't know how to help her with the paci issue.

This is a kid who TELLS you when she's tired, goes to her crib and goes to sleep. She's been like a dream child as far as sleep goes. She's never slept anywhere at night except for her crib.
I'm at a loss!!

By Reds9298 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:42 am:

Sorry for the mistakes...typing FAST
Sherri-I'll email you.

By Reds9298 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:43 am:

And thank you to EVERYONE!!! I really don't know what else to do and all of your advice is very helpful.

By Reds9298 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:44 am:

She's an angel during the day. We have the best time, and the bedtime routine is so pleasant! She KNOWS it's bedtime, we do all the usual things, she snuggles with Daddy & Mommy, I put her in her crib and it's so sweet until that door shuts and she's off and running.

By Debbie on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:53 am:

Well, I would not start rocking her now. My ds was at the rocking stage before we started CIO, but he was also only 1.

How about some type of reward system? Each night she goes to sleep without screaming, she gets incented. I use a treasure box with my youngest. It seems to work best for him. I pick up things at the $$ store, and party store. We are using it this summer for reading. Each day he sits and reads to me for 30 minutes, he gets to pick out of it. I have used it for other things to. I know lots of people also have great success with sticker charts.

It definitely sounds like a power struggle. I would not give in on the paci, she has already gone a long time without it. Hang in there. I hope you find something soon that works.

By Trina~moderator on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 12:11 pm:

She could be experiencing night time fears. Both my kids suffered night time fears at about the age of 2. I personally don't think CIO is appropriate if that's the case. Their fears are real to them. This phase went on for several months, not days or weeks, but we were able to find things that helped each child cope. For DS, just knowing our cat, Andy, was in the room or on his bed, made him feel "safe". Andy seemed to know when Ty needed him and faithfully stood night watch. LOL! No more night wakings! Fast forward - DS (6 at the time) developed asthma and a cat allergy so Andy had to be banned from his room. DS started waking up scared again. We had to find a substitute night watch. LOL! I have a life sized stuffed penguin DS liked to sleep with. It worked!

DD - There were many nights when DH or I would have to lay down beside her for a little while to get her to settle down. We also figured out that if she woke crying in the middle of the night, it was quite often because she needed to pee, but was half asleep and couldn't verbalize. One of us would scoop her up, set her on the toilet, let her pee and then put her back to bed with no problems. She liked to sleep with our life sized black panther if/when she was scared at night.

Different things work for different kids. Sometimes all they need is a little crutch to help them feel safe and secure at night. A night light, a lovey object, a pet or stuffed animal to stand guard, a dream catcher, monster spray, whatever works!

DD (2 or 3 at the time) sleeping nose to nose with our life sized panther.


A good article:
http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/refcap/preschooler/psleep/64080.html

By Nicki on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 12:27 pm:

Ditto, Trina. Lara is going to be four, and she still cries out for me if she can't find her favorite Winnie blanket in the middle of the night. We also have a ritual where Lara chooses her favorite stuffed animals and places them all around the edges of her daybed each night. I think the soft animals gives her the comfy feeling of the bumper pads on her crib. And I actually hear her wake in the middle of the night and "talk" to her critters! I think she is half asleep and it only lasts a few seconds, then she returns to sleep. She told me once "they keep me safe, mom". I really do think our little one's feel real fear in the middle of the night.
Good luck! I hope all of you will be getting some sleep soon.

By Bemerry84 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 02:14 pm:

IMO I think this IS related to the disappearance of the paci. Here's my story, my son was 3 months shy of 3 years old and Santa took his binky and left him the Fisher Price garage with the automatic door opener that he wanted more than anything (1993). He was excited at first and then all h@ll broke loose. He cried and screamed and carried on for almost four weeks and would not tell me why. I told my husband if he would just say I want my binky I would have given it back but he would not even say the word. I was crying right along with him. These were the most miserable days of my motherhood and just when I thought it would never end, it did. I know how hard it is but hang in there and peace will return when it's time.

By Sandysmom on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 02:18 pm:

I haven't read the posts yet, but I've always listened to the crying. If the crying started sounding like she were in distress, then I would go in.

By Dawnk777 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 06:35 pm:

My kids both had night terrors, at the age of 2. That's where they wake up screaming, and eyes are open, but they aren't really awake. You usually can't talk to them, because they don't understand that you are even there. I would just quietly hug them and maybe bring them into bed with us.

By Reds9298 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 07:01 pm:

Dawn-Natalie has had night terrors, about 8-9mths. ago, so we're familiar with that. I'm positive it's not night terrors, but thanks for the suggestion.

Bemerry84- Thank you for the paci story!!! I think GOING to bed is mostly a power struggle (it was happening before the paci went away), but during the night I think IS the loss of the paci. i thought she was really weird for STILL being so upset about it, especially after starting off so well. It sounds like there are other kids who are hit hard with it, so I appreciate hearing that. I'm at the point where I'm crying, too sometimes for the middle of the night stuff. I WILL NOT give her another one, so that's not in question, I just wish there was a way I could help her through it.

I'm afraid that if I start to comfort her I will set up a bad pattern, but I don't think CIO is working either.

Bemerry- Did you just let your son CIO during the loss of the paci? She has never cried so hard and so long as she is now. Never.

Thank you everyone for you suggestions and stories. It's so helpful to know that I can vent here about mommyhood and get GREAT advice from those of you that have BTDT!

By Mrsheidi on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:02 pm:

I saw something on Nanny 911 with the same situation. Hope this helps?
Sit by her bed for one night and let her fall asleep. (Sneak out later)
The next night, sit a few more feet away until she falls asleep.
Gradually, work towards the door. And, I think, after about 4-5 days of this it should subside.

Will she stay in bed if you try this?

We also have an aquarium thing that Connor can push and play with if he wakes up in the middle of the night. Maybe there is a glo-worm of some sort that she would like to help her soothe back to sleep in lieu of the paci?

By Jackie on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:24 pm:

You got some good advice. Personally Ive never been a big fan of CIO... Im just a big sap. With that said, we have tried it with my oldest, and it worked, somewhat. We did not do the full version. With my middle daughter, she didnt need it, she was the best sleeper. Faith was a horrible sleeper, and we tried, and just wasnt going for it, and I couldnt stand it. As each minute past, I thought I would have a anxiety attack. Im a sucker, I love to cuddle and rock the babies. We use to rock Faith to sleep for naps and bedtime. Again people always say, thats bad, gotta get babies use to sleeping on their own, yada yada yada....I dont rock her anymore, but I hold her in my bed until she falls asleep. Yep for naps and bedtime, we do our nightime routine, bath, pj's, cup of milk(cup of milk, another no-no to a lot of people), brush her teeth, pop paci in it(again another no-no, but that is the only time she gets it), and then she lays on me, I cover us up, and within about 10 minutes or less shes asleep. I then get up put her in crib. She is finally sleeping all night. We had a rough first yr with her sleep, and the amt of times she got up. As time passes she is sleeping better...I still hear cry out in her sleep. I wait and if it continues I go and pick her up and cuddle her for a few seconds. Though that is happening less and less. She will be 2 next month. CIO just did not work for her and me, I just couldnt handle it.
My point all kids are dift, all moms are dift, and do what you feel is right.

By Reds9298 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:31 pm:

Heidi - She's still in her crib, so it's not a matter of staying in bed. Come to think of it, she does have a glo-pooh. The stuffed animals that have ALWAYS been in her crib don't seem to help her, but maybe we can dig out that Pooh. I didn't think of that. She still has the aquarium toys in her crib but she hasn't played with them for over a year. She doesn't ever want them on for some reason. I haven't taken them down just for familiarity purposes.

As far as I'm concerned, the CIO in the middle of the night is not working. I don't mind comforting her to get her through this, but I worry that she will then come to rely on ME! She doesn't seem to need to be picked up, just to see me in the room. I don't mind rubbing her back, belly, etc. and waiting for her to drift off, but will I create a new monster that way?

The poor kid is hoarse from all the crying and screaming at naps and nighttime. It's pretty pathetic. We've started talking about the plug a little bit, which we haven't since we threw them away. I try to tell her that it's okay without her plug, she's a very big girl, and she has her doggies to squeeze if she needs to feel better.

By Nicki on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:13 pm:

Deanna, maybe she will just need your presence in her room, rubbing her back, just as a crutch until she adjusts to the fact her pacifier is really gone? I have always gone to Lara in the middle of the night and rocked her back to sleep. I have noticed that the more secure she feels, the less she seems to need me at night. She knows I will be there in a heart beat. I very seldom need to rock her in the middle of the night anymore. I know she's a bit older than your Natalie. I guess, if I were you, I would rather spend the time rocking her,or rubbing her back in her crib, in an attempt to get her back to sleep quickly. It would seem better for both of you.(?) Just my thoughts. I have to wonder if this is getting more and more traumatic for Natalie, and you are both missing valuable sleep. Hope I haven't said too much, I just care about both of you. :-)

By Heaventree on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:45 pm:

Deanna, I wouldn't worry that she will come to rely on you as you said above. Maybe she does need a little comfort, not that you not, but a little extra just to get her over that hump. If you feel she's needing it too much then back off a bit, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. She's still so little and cannot fully express her needs to you yet. It's trial and error, it sounds like you are afraid to make mistakes. We all make mistakes just go with your gut, if you have been trying something for a number of days and it's just working try something else.

I made a mistake this morning, at 5:30 am Matthew was crying at his gate, in my sleepy state I let him out and I thought he might just cuddle with us for an hour. Had I felt him for a minute he might have gone back to bed or played quitely in his room, instead he drove us both crazy. DH went to sleep in Matthew's room, Matthew went into DH's overnight bag from when he travels, got out his hair creme and dumped the whole thing on his head. We found him in the baby's room sitting on top of the change table with a greasy head. Big mistake.

Hang in there you will work this out.

By Reds9298 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:53 pm:

Thank you Heaven and Nicki. Heaven - You pegged it...I AM afraid to make mistakes! That is exactly it. AfFter hearing her say today for the first time that she wants her plug, I do feel that when she wakes at night and struggles that it's due to the paci. Knowing that makes me think she needs the comfort. If we have the same issues tonight we are not going to CIO. I DO want to help her with this paci transition; I just thought it would be the first few nights and instead it has come later for her.
Nicki - Not saying too much my dear! I appreciate your thoughts.

Sometimes I don't know what I would do without this board and all of you!!

By Bemerry84 on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 01:16 pm:

I'm glad you decided to not let her CIO, she really needs you now. We did not let DS CIO, I always went into him and asked what was wrong and if he needed something and him being almost a year older than your DD,he knew what he wanted but could not even get the word out of him mouth. I would just rub his back and soothe him. He also had a blanket and a little terry cloth boy doll (buddy) he had since birth and even these didn't do the job. Eventually the cries in the night decreased and then stopped. Hang in there you are probably near the end since she actually said paci and is talking about it.

By Reds9298 on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 02:29 pm:

Lastnight and today were BETTER! Slept all night just fine, no crying at bedtime, and no crying at nap today. Just my sweet girl singing to herself! I hope it lasts. We HAVE talked about the paci several times in the last day...reminding why we threw them out (they were chewed up and unsafe), how she's a big girl, and what she can hold on to at night to feel better. I'm not sure if that's helping or not. Hopefully we are nearing the end! If she did cry lastnight, we decided we weren't going to CIO.

She's been a pistol about going to bed BEFORE we lost the paci, so we thought the nighttime waking was related to that. It makes it worse when you have TWO issues going on at the same time.

I'll keep you posted!

By Heaventree on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 02:41 pm:

Deanna, if you had it to do all over again would you have done things differently with the pacifier? Like taken it sooner?

I'm asking because Matthew never really wanted one, maybe around 3 or 4 months, he didn't really want it and we never encouraged it.

Cameron however, is a different kid. If he has access to it, it's in his mouth. I only allow it at sleep times and in the car or if we are out. He's 10 months old now and I would like to see it go bye bye.

Any thoughts?

By Pamt on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 02:59 pm:

Not Deanna, but I can promise you that I will make life much easier if you take it now. Really. He doesn't need the sucking anymore and it will be much easier to get him attached to another lovey when he's a sweet 10-month-old versus a strong-willed, independent 2 y/o.

By Heaventree on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 03:04 pm:

Thanks Pam, he's already a strong-willed, independent 10 month old so I won't wait, we'll do it soon! He's got a blanket that we call a dodo and I'm introducing a little lamb right now, but I think I'll go out and get him a special teddy as the lamb is too small for later on.

By Reds9298 on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 04:44 pm:

Heaven- Natalie LOVED her paci from the beginning. Around 7mths I think, we noticed that she had it in her mouth ALL the time, so we took it away and it only stayed in her bed until 2-3 weeks ago. She was sucking it maybe an hour a day since then (it was never in her mouth during sleep). I personally don't see any problem with it when it's limited.
Knowing the struggles she's had getting rid of it, we MIGHT do that differently and taken it away around one year or so completely. Ditto Pam. It would have been easier earlier. If you want it to go Heaven, I probably would get rid of it now. You'll be happy you did probably in the long run! But do what you think is best

By Nicki on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 12:09 am:

I'm so glad things went better last night! That's so sweet that Natalie sings to herself. I always know Lara had a good rest if she wakes up chatting to her stuffed toys.

Hope tonight is going well, too. Sweet dreams, Natalie.:-)

By Debbie on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 06:04 am:

I'm glad things were better last night. Keeping my fingers crossed it continues.

By Mrsheidi on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 07:21 am:

Hey Deanna,
I think the nanny just stayed in the room as a "comfort" thing, not trying to keep the kid in the crib.
I did it with connor. it worked. i just sat outside of his crib until he went to sleep and gradually worked my way towards the door each night for 3 nights. he didn't cry to be held, but he just was happy i was in the room. i think it only works when they are going down to sleep. so, if she had night terrors, you might have to hold her for a bit and then sit by her crib. connor is still sleeping in his crib which is *fine* by me!
sorry, typing in a hurry...

By Reds9298 on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 02:30 pm:

Slept good again at night. Woke at 5am crying pretty hard, she went potty and I patted her a few minutes and she went back to sleep until 8:15am. I couldn't believe it! STILL screaming before going to bed at naps or bedtime, but that's something different. That's just B-R-A-T!! She's been doing that for a while.

She sits and cries and says "I don't want to go to bed!!!"

Sleeping at night is better so far. Debbie - I'm keeping my fingers crossed, too!!!