Lying
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So how do normal people deal with this? My 10 year old son is a master it seems. I went to wake the kiddos up this am, my youngest kid has this stuffed polar bear with a tshirt, the tshirt is up around it's head, I said what happeneded to freezy? He said oh Douglas did that. So I walked over to his room, i had already woken him up, and joking said "why did you mess with freezy?" He promptly looks at me and says "i didn't". So I told his brother said he was taking his shirt off, so I asked, why did you do that, were you just messing with him? Again he very adamantly replies that he didn't do it. Long stroy from here, but I could tell by his firmness, his lack of eye contact that now he was telling a big one. I made a huge deal out of it. Honestly a good 10 minutes, and laid it on thick. Called in his sister. Explained to him that I thought he was telling a lie and these are the reasons why. The little guy can't lie, really it is one of his quirks (great at times, not so great at gift time). Anyway, I told him that I was giving him one more chance to be honest, basically saying how stupid it was to lie over something that has no consequences. But that I wasn't going to deal with liars in my house. Again he said, he didn't do it. So I hugged him and said, I am going to trust you, if you say you didn't do it, then all I can do is believe you. BUT I am going to call the other kid who was visiting and talk with him. And IF I find out that he is still lying, and I WILL find out, then there will be extreme consequences. Again he says I didn't do it. I am sitting there dumbfounded, nearly in tears, because I just know he is lying. And then doubting myself just a little, and all that great guilt. He finally just starts crying and apologizing...I said what are you sorry for, and very quietly he says "i did it". His reasoning for doing it was actually a good one, the shirt was on backwards (i knew it was). But I just don't get how he can lie like that. Really because it is a HUGE issue with me I was pretty thick about it.
So the question is...how do I make him not be a liar? This time I simply hugged him and said thank you for telling the truth. But I am just stunned.
A little background first. I have a brother who lied his whole life. We have little to no contact now, it is very sad. The biggest lie he told was when he was 20. He had some issues in college, didn't feel like he was doing well enough and started making his own grade sheets. Anyway that got caught he was on probation with the school, there were several fines (about 5-6 grand). At that point my parents told him that he could no longer live on campus, he could commute and they would still pay for college, or he could do something else, really left it up to him. They were VERY kind about it. He picked college. He drove back and forth each day, did tons of homework. Only to turn around at the end of the semester to get 2 f's. My dad asked what happened (rather calmly I might add). He said he didn't know. Long story, but he just kept lying and lying about it, finally convinced my dad to call the professor and just ask (dad knew him) and even when dad did, my brother still held tight to his lie. Turns out he never went to class, EVER. But the whole time my brother was maintaining that he should of had a b. Anyway, that was it. My dad said he would no longer pay for college, he was more than welcome to live at home, but he had to get a job. My brother asked if he choose to leave could he take a bag with him. So basically my dad got him a hotel room for the night and said good bye. My grandmother came and picked him up and he lived off her for the next 12 or so years. Crazy, but he has lied and stolen from so many. Some of them significant, some of them stupid. I was left with cleaning out his room. I found all sorts of intersting things, like all my college acceptance letters, he had photocopied and had a file of them. ODD stuff.
anyway, I am so worried that my son is my brother. I can't handle that very well. It doesn't help that he looks just like him, it is scary.
I know I am making too big of a deal of this, but still the question bodes, what do you do with liars, how do you fix this behavior? This really isn't the first time, but seems to be the most significant lie for something so stupid.
Lying is something I will not tolerate in my home.My DD has lied a couple of times and over silly things.I think all kids will do it but it is how you handle it.My older sister was a compulsive liar and we didnt have a close relationship because of it.I just told my DD it will be hard for me to believe anything she says if I catch her lying.On purpose one day she told me something exciting at school happened and I said I didnt believe her.I told her that she lied how can I believe her now.She started crying cuz I wouldnt believe her.We havent had any lying going on since then.She is 7 and I hope it was just a stage and we dont have to deal with it again.Its ok to make a big deal out of it because it is something you're firmly against especially when you grew up with it and knowing what lying can do to a family.
I guess that is why I am so hurt. This is far from the first time, we have had the talk. I make a huge point of modeling honestly. Even when it is uncomfortable. For example my car tags expired, I went to renew them and there is a fine associated with it, UNLESS you haven't been driving the car. So the lady asks me, with my kids there, have you been driving this vehicle. So I do say, it would be so much easier to lie right now, but we like to be honest in our family, yes I have driven the car. Things like that seem to come up so often and although I mostly do the right thing even without the kids, with the kids I tend to make a big issue of it. Like if we find something we return it. Really I haven't caught him a lot, but I do catch him lying about stuff when he fears the consequences. So I am changing parenting to try to not be confrontive. This morning was a great example, when I realized he was lying I even made it very light hearted, and said no biggie, I was just curious why. I think the fact that he just held strong for so long worries me. And of course now I look back on a couple other issues and wonder how honest he was. I hate this.
On a side note, this is my hard to like kid. Not that he is hard, but he is hard for me. He is nothing like me, has completely opposite interests. So I really have to make myself spend time with him. He is very very smart and it makes him very challenging sometimes. And quite honestly he can be downright rude. Toss that in to the package of he looks like the brother I have disowned (and has very similar personality too). He is just a real challenge for me. One I pray about often and really work to foster. So I also know that some of his lying has to be not wanting to let me down. UGH...it is too early to drink here 
Reworking his punishment might help.Is he fearful of punishment that he'd rather lie.What circumstances does he lie.Does he have low self-esteem and wants to look good.Does he have alot of pressure school/sports where he might have to keep up a self image.Have you ever compared him to you're brother and he realizes that you dont like you're brother?Is he getting alot of attention when hes good versus when he lies?I wish I could be of more help.I know how lying can destroy a family.If it keeps up why not talk to the family MD and get to the root so you can start enjoying you're son.He's you're son not you're brother
Kaye, do your children know about your brother? I have a number of things I'd like to say, but I'm at work now. But I will say that Sherri is right - he is your son, your 10 year old son, not your brother.
Please get him into counseling and maybe do some sessions together with him. I'm not a huge fan of jumping into counseling for everything but I was a huge liar as a child. In high school, I did things very similar to your brother (insisting that I didn't deserve a bad grade while knowing exactly why I had the bad grade, lied about where I was, even if I wasn't doing something wrong, said I'd done things I was supposed to do when I hadn't) and I still don't know why I did it. I was so scared to disappoint my parents and I think that was the original reason but it escalated way beyond that. I finally grew up around 18 and stopped it completely but the lying felt completely out of control. I was a nervous wreck trying to keep everything straight and it completely wrecked my self-esteem. I know I drove my parents nuts because I was a pretty good kid, besides this, but they had no idea how to get me to stop and I didn't know how, either. I don't know what to tell you now that would have changed things then but I think a good psychologist probably could help you come up with some strategies. I really hope that your ds is able to get this straightened out while he's young. I can't imagine trying to deal with my dks doing this, now that I'm a parent.
Kaye, do you think it might help you to talk to someone and work through your feelings as regards to your brother? I guess I worry you are projecting the feelings you have towards your brother on your son? Just my thoughts. He may sense your feelings. And perhaps feels you are testing him, an example being the questions about the shirt on his bear.
You both need counseling - both together and apart. You have some strong negative feelings towards you brother and your son is paying the price. Maybe your son feels like you are on a witchhunt - no matter what he does or says, you are going to attack him because you are thinking he is just like your brother. Do you ever point out the positive things he does? Suerly, he has some.
Are you projecting your hate for your brother onto your son? How do you think that makes your son feel? Maybe he just wants to feel loved and accepted by you. Don't make him pay the price for your brother's crimes.
Kaye - It is a normal part of growing up for kids to lie. They do it because they want to please you more than anything. They eventually learn (in most cases) that coming clean is okay because you'll still love them and support them.
Most lying is tied to self-esteem, as Sherrie mentioned.
You handled it just right, giving him support and encouragement and not punishing him. You gave him the room to let his own conscience come to the right decision.
You may be over sensitive to the lying because of what happened with your brother. Take a deep breath, continue to monitor the lying, and continue to be supporitve and nurturing.
I am sorry about your relationship with your brother - even his situation, was motivated by the desire not to lose face with your parents.
If your child knows he's not going to "lose face" by telling you the truth, and you are not going to go ballistic, then he'll feel comfortable coming to you with issues and be able to tell you the truth.
You did a good job.
Ame
Interesting responses.
I don't hate my brother, it did take years to get over that. He is really just who he is. I do hate what he did to my childhood and to my parents and to my grandparents. It is also sad to me that someone who had so much potential ultimately has very little in his life.
I guess when it comes to my son, I worry, no fear, that there may be some genetic trait that he too will become like my brother.
He does have great qualities and I do love him dearly. I would seriously doubt that he thinks I am on a witch hunt for him. I do know that he notices that I spend more time with the other kids and I do make a HUGE effort to balance that out. I guess the difference is, because he interests lie so differently than the other kids and mine, that it is just that a HUGE EFFORT.
As for this morning, I guess what just got me so upset/sad, not mad. Is that it wasn't anything worth lying over, I was far from accusational. He made a huge deal over something that was a nothing. Even when I pointed out to him, you know I don't care, I was just curious, he was just so ADAMENT that he had NOTHING to do with it. Not really how I like to start my morning.
He is very very smart and this causes quite a bit of friction between us. He is pretty sure he is smarter than me. For example, this morning when I said, you know honey it really isn't that hard for me to figure out what happened. He said and I quote "you really couldn't get proof, if you tried to get fingerprints, first fabric doesn't hold fingerprints, plus there would be mine and my brothers on there. I already admitted that I did touch the bear, I just didn't remove the shirt." I felt like I exhibited great restraint this morning, because that statement made me want to just slap him 
I do appreciate your comments ame. I really did just come and let all my frustrations out here, because I really didn't lose it with him, which was what I wanted to do.
The reason I gave family history is just this, I know I am not normal. I have first hand seen how lies can destroy a family. As much as I don't want to overreact, it is very very hard not to do. So I was wondering "how normal people deal with lying"? I did not punish him. I did express that I was very sad that he couldn't be honest without it being a big deal. But I did tell him I was very happy that he did tell the truth.
anyway, just one more of the great joys of being a parent.
Kaye - I want to apologize to you. I don't want you thinking you are a bad mom. You aren't. If anything, you should be proud that you recognize this as a big issue in your life.
My mom felt the same way about her mom as you do your brother. I look identical to my grandma. So, guess who got the brunt of that hostility? Me. It didn't help that my grandmother was murdered before they had a chance to patch things up. She was murdered 5 years before I was even born but the anger was still there.
I just don't want to see you ruin your relationship with your son because of your anger towards your brother.
Kaye, I'm going to ramble a bit here (or maybe more than a bit), because a lot of things are going through my head.
Lying is something that just pushes one of my big buttons. My ex used to lie, a lot, and about the most trivial things, and often about things that were so easily proven. It drove me crazy, and is one of the many reasons he is my ex. Honesty - by which I mean not only not lying, but telling the whole truth and not just part of it - is very important to me.
But, kids lie. For a lot of reasons, but mostly because at that moment they think by lying they can stay out of or get out of trouble - not realizing that most of the time they will get caught out, and not thinking fully ahead to the consequences of being caught lying. It's something every parent has to work on, a lot.
I do wonder if your feelings about your brother, and especially your feelings about your brother's constant lying, can color how you react and how strongly you react to this.
I hear you saying that this boy is (a) very smart, and (b) has interests that differ greatly from your interests and his siblings interests. And I hear you saying you spend less time with him. And that's not fair, to him or to you. If you think about it, I am sure you can find things you and he can do together that you will both enjoy, or at least things in which you can learn from him what he likes and why he likes it.
I wonder if your tone to him this morning (and maybe other times) gave him the idea that changing the shirt on the bear (or whatever) was wrong, and that was part of what motivated the lie. Can you "listen" to yourself in how you speak to your son and if it differs from the way you speak to your other children? If it does, I suggest that is something you should work on changing.
Does his dad get along better with him? Is that a relationship you can encourage?
Finally, it may be that at some point you and dh need to sit down with all of your children and say, we have to tell you something, because it is important and you need to know why mom reacts the way she does to some things. Mom has a brother, your Uncle ???, who really messed up his life and caused his famiily a lot of pain by lying - about little things and about big things. He did (and give some examples, of both little and big lies). Because of his lying, your mom went through some very painful times, and your grandparents also had a lot of pain. So your mom has a lot less tolerance for fibbing, lying, white lies, shading the truth, or anything of that kind, that most other people. You may have noticed that your mom insists on telling the absolute truth all the time (I am sure you do), and that she gets bent out of shape when someone, anyone lies. And now you know why. So it is very important, when your mom asks a question, even about something silly or trivial, that you answer with nothing but the truth. And let the kids talk about it, say "what if", and "what about", and just generally explore this.
Having a very smart child is no picnic. I know. And having a smart child who is also a smart alec (or smart •••, as I sometimes called one or another of my sons) is especially no picnic. One of the things I had to do with one of my sons - who was particularly clever and manipulative - was just to say, I need to think about this for a while, so go away and let me think ... something doesn't feel right and I can't put my finger on it, so give me time to think. Usually I was able to figure out where the skunk in the woodpile was, and get back to that son "in no uncertain terms", but I did have to have time to think about it. One nice thing about being the parent is you don't have to have an immediate answer - you can say, let me think about it, or even, your dad and I will talk about it and get back to you. Really smart and smart-alec kids try to push you into making an immediate decision or having an immediate answer, but you don't have to play their game or play it on their terms.
For something like the "you can't get fingerprints from cloth", the response I'd make is, I don't need fingerprints to tell me who is telling the truth and who is lying, and if you think you can outsmart me, maybe you can, but I am still in charge and will still make the rules that you have to live with. Being smart isn't enough - you also have to be wise, and that comes with maturity. So grow up, son, and start trying to show a little wisdom along with all your smartness. I love you dearly, but you have to remember that I am the parent and you are the child, which means I am in charge, and if necessary I will lovingly remind you of it. My job is to help you grow up to be an adult who can get along in the world with a minimum of problems, and one of the things you have to learn is that "smart" isn't everything. (Oh, and by the way, anyone who watches CSI knows that if you have the high-tech equipment, you can get DNA off of cloth, even if you can't get fingerprints - so there!!)
I don't have experience with this lying issue and I'm sorry Kaye that you're going through this with him.
Ginny - Your last paragraph was so well scripted and should be in a parent's handbook!!!
I haven't read most of this thread. I sympathize with you, tho. I don't have experience with this, either, but my wise old (*80-yr-old*) grandma does.
My dad lied to her when he was 12. She started noticing a pattern of lying. She called him on it several times, he got caught a few times, and it continued.
So, she tried something defferent. Something some would say is creative, and some would say is cruel. But by golly, it worked.
She told him one time that she had tickets to see the Detroit Tigers play a baseball game in Detroit, and they were going to go that weekend. He was so excited! He told all his friends.
The day came, and he was ready to go the minute he woke up. She got up slowly, had her coffee, made some toast, and read the paper. Finally, he couldn't take it anymore and he said, "MOM, we have to go NOW or we'll miss the game!"
She said, "OH! The game! Well, I lied. We're not going."
Okay, he was MAD. MAD. MAD. MAD.
But when he calmed down, she sat down and talked with him. She explained that when people lie, not only do they hurt the person they lied to emotionally, but they also hurt their relationship with that person. She said that when he lies to her, she hurts because she knows she can't trust him, and she really wanted to be able to trust him. She hurts because she wants him to grow up and be a respectable person, and she is very afraid that he will not grow into such a person. (Here is where you could use your brother as an example.) And that now that he knows how she feels when he lies to her, she hopes that he will not want to make her feel that way ever again.
And he didn't.
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