DOn't have a lot of time to elaborate-but does anyone have any experience with a child withholding bms? He's in day care- they are pressuring him- I've been meeting with them- very aggressively....he didn't want to go this AM- he's worried.... This is not like him- usually he's very outgoing and loves school. I told them to BACK OFF and not pressure him. I have given him teh same message. I think he needs to see his teacher backing off though- which hopefully will happen today.

BTW- he's at the stage where he has loose stool because it is leaking out- because he's withholding. Ped told me the next stage is when it backs up into his bowels.... UGH!

By Karen~moderator on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 09:03 am:

Jules used to do that when she was maybe age 4-8. It was a control thing with her. I agree, it is probably in response to being pressured. You need to make sure they understand this.

By Lauram on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 09:41 am:

I think the director got it. Like I said- I was really agressive with advocating for him. As far as the teacher goes, I dont' think she does get it. She said at the meeting that I was asking for "special treatment." HUH?! She went on from there. It was not good.... THat's what I'm concerned about. I already have him on a waiting list for another school. Unfortunately, they may not have an opening until June though. THis is the letter I wrote to the director this AM

(Director)- Morgan did not want to come this morning. He curled up in my arms in the fetal position. I am very worried about him. He had a ton of excuses why he couldn't go to school. He hasn't had a bm since Monday night, so I'm sure one is on the way (and he knows this).

I told him that if he has an accident, it's ok. I told him (teacher) would say it was ok too. He didn't seem to believe me. I really think he needs to hear it from her.

If "it" hasn't happened yet, I'm sure it will at some point today. Please let (teacher) know that he will need additional compassion and reassurance today to help him get over this hurdle. I did mention it to (drop off teacher) when I dropped him off. I told her the wrong day though- I said his last one was SUnday- I'm a little mixed up with the days this week since I took off on Monday.....If you need to talk to me, call me on my cell- XXX-XXXX.

By Cat on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 09:48 am:

What's the teacher's problem? Why is she so concerned about him having a bm? Is it because she's afraid he'll have an accident and she'll have to clean it up? Come on! That's part of being a child care provider. It happens. No, it's not pleasant, but get over it. I hope she stops with the pressure so Morgan can be less stressed, which, incidently will cause him to hold it even longer! Hugs to both of you. How's Douglas doing at school this week? When's spring break?

By Trina~moderator on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 09:57 am:

"Special treatment"?! I'd be LIVID! Ditto Cat. Par for the course of being a child care provider. {{{HUGS}}} Poor kiddo!

By Lauram on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:30 am:

Cat- It is totally the teacher's problem. I think you hit the nail on the head. SHe is afraid to clean it up. I'm not sure what she's doing with 3's. It's a total nightmare- which is why I'm desparately searching for another school.... I need one that nurtures social/emotional- this one is "academic". They really don't get it that Morgan already knows their academic curriculum - he taught himself at age 2 pretty much the entire K curriculum. He's looking like he's taking after his brother....

Douglas is ok. I took MOnday off to stay home with both of them. We really needed the down time- all of us. He has another therapy appt on Thursday. He actually was consoling his brother yesterday telling him school wasn't "that bad." I guess that's a good sign.

As far as when is Spring Break- tell me about it. Aruba, here I come! NOT! It's the third week of April. I can't wait for some more down time. We all really need it. Friday is off too. Can't wait. Douglas doesn't have school on Monday- dh is taking the day off- so I think I'm going to have him hang with both of them..... Haven't broached that one with him yet, though.....

By Debbie on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:03 am:

Laura, I have a lot of experience with this. My oldest ds was a withholder. I don't want to scare you, but please try and get it taken care of as soon as you can. I know you are trying to work with the school. I didn't take care of it soon enough with my ds and it took 3 years for him to get past it!!!! Are you giving him any type of stool softner such as MOM?? If he has leakage then he is impacted with a large bm and it is leaking around it. You need to get him cleaned out. Did your ped. recommend anything to give him?? email me at jjsoliz @ comcast.net (no spaces)if you have any specific questions.

{{{hugs}}} to you both.

By Debbie on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:06 am:

Also Laura, withholding is actually called encopresis. When we were dealing with this, I printed out information from the internet and gave it to my ds's preschool. This helped them become a lot more understanding. If you do a search on encopresis there is a lot of information on it. It can be very serious because your ds can get in a cycle of withholding. It hurts to have a large bm, so they don't want to go and they can continue to withhold. Maybe, if the school realized what a big problem it could become, they will back off.

By Kate on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 11:31 am:

Ditto Debbie. Her advice of MOM, btw, stands for Milk of Magnesia, in case you didn't know. You could also give him an enema. Also, don't be surprised if he DOESN'T go today. He can easily withhold it for days and days and days and days, etc. If you're able to, I would take off from work and spend the rest of the week home with him. You're getting on dangerous ground and the school is making things worse. If you get past the point of no return you are looking at months, if not years (probable) of this problem. I would get him an enema pronto, and use MOM or a stool softener for a few weeks to keep everything soft so it doesn't hurt when he goes. Don't just fix the problem for one day, you'll need to keep him on a maintenance program for a few weeks. He needs to trust that it won't hurt and that it's 'safe' to go. His teacher is not making him feel safe. I'm totally serious about getting him out of school for the rest of the week. Can your husband take some days off, if you can't? Do you have family who could help out? Truly, you're at a crux here and if you can climb back down without going over the tip, you'll have a much easier time of it. Otherwise you really have a strong possibility of years of this issue. Debbie had a good idea about printing out info. I'd highlight key points as this teacher doesn't sound like she cares too much and would probably balk at reading a whole bunch of print outs.

By Lauram on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 12:09 pm:

What do you do with MOM? Give the regular dose?

My ped didn't recommend that I give him anything- just to bring him in if I feel like he needs to have his belly checked. I'm not sure we're at that point yet, but I do hear the warning bells- big time! I do have a friend whose daughter had this -for years.

Thanks for the info about the scientific name. I'm going to search for info now....
UGH! This has really been a horrible week.....

By Lauram on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 12:16 pm:

One more thought- for those of you who know my saga- I can't believe I have to learn about one more medical issue! AHHHHHHH! I took Morgan to the allergist (for his asthma) last week and had filled out all the paperwork. Apparently, most parents aren't as thorough. THe dr asked me if I was in the medical field! I had a big laugh (to myself!)

By Debbie on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 12:45 pm:

Laura, when my ds would withhold for a few days, I would give him 2 tsp of MOM every 4 hours until the went. It usually took just a dose or two. It will help soften his bm so it doesn't hurt so much when he goes and it will keep him from being able to hold it any longer. If you do this, beware that it will be very, very soft when he goes. You might want to call your ped. and see what he suggests you do. Hopefully, this will be just a one time thing. However, if he continues to withhold, have him see your ped. asap. He/She should be able to give you something that he can take daily to stop him from being able to hold it. My ds was on Miralax for 2 yrs and then MOM daily for another year. He is now 7 and we haven't had any problems for the last year. If you catch it soon enough, it shouldn't take so long to get over. Be aware that some ped. don't know much about this. I was lucky that mine did. If your ped. doesn't want to do anything for it, then ask for a referral to a ped. GI doctor. I had a friend that her ped. just told her that her ds would outgrown it. It went on for almost a year before she got help for him. She is still dealing with it and he is now 9 years old. My ds was withholding for about 3 months before I got help and it still took 3 years to get over. With him it was also a control/anxiety issue and he would start up every time he got anxious about anything or there was change in his life.

I am so sorry you are having such a horrible week. Hopefully, this will pass quickly for you and your ds.

By Amecmom on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 02:06 pm:

Laura! Hugs! My son did this when training. It's pretty common in boys. I can add to the above posts that mineral oil (Kondremul) mixed in juice is good. Also increase his fiber with Benefiber in his juice or watever you can put it in. My son has a mix of prune and apple juice daily. I find a bigger problem when he's had too much dairy.

Mostly, there is an episode with a hard to pass stool, then witholding for fear of pain and it becomes a viscious cycle.

As far as the daycare, I would also be livid!

The good news is you can correct this with time and patience.

Good luck!
Ame

By Cheerio on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 02:31 pm:

I'm another mom who's DD went through this last year even before we started potty training. She would go 5 days without going and would be absolutely miserable. We would have to force her to stand still and hold our hands and yell at her to go. It was awful. We finally did the mineral oil, enemas (which traumatized her even further), a prescription syrup and then ended up on Miralax for a couple of months. Somehow it just clicked with her and she started going. It was a rough 4 or 5 months though. Now she's fine and we still stay away from too much cheese and calcium fortified things (she refuses to drink milk after taking away her bottle years ago). I think giving her all that fortified stuff caused her problems too. Get as much fiber into his diet as you can and hopefully you can break the cycle quickly.

By Dana on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 02:31 pm:

Repeating all that Debbie and Kate said. We went thru a full YEAR of this once DD started the cycle. We did the enema after several days of with holding....actually more than a week because I thought the leaks were movements. The first enema was really easy to give because she didn't know what it was going to feel like. She had more than I can count since then, and it was HORRIBLE to give them to her. Both of us would be in tears. Do everything you can to avoid this. Also, you will be shocked to see how much comes out of your tiny child after the enema.

With the MOM, you can mix it into Chocolate milk or ice cream and stir it to a smooth mix. DD hated the enemas so much, she would drink the stuff straight! I can't even do that. Whatever method you use, make sure you give them the full dose. Continue giving it to your child for several weeks each day just to make sure the movements stay soft w/out pain for passing.

Oh, after the enema, stay in the bathroom w/out undies on your child. Hold and snuggle your child while it works. It takes a few minutes and he will feel pain. If you have never done this yourself, it is very painful when it starts doing it's thing inside of you. Assure him you will be there for him and you will hold him until he is ready for the potty. Reinforce the "ready for potty" You want to make sure he is on the potty when it comes out. Keep on the potty beyond the first movement because there will be one or two afterwards, even if it is just a squirt of liquid. It stinks and you don't want it on your bath mats. He will feel SOOOOOO much better. He will be a new child to you. It will amaze you how much better that YOU can see he feels.

By all means get as much "dr" information about the psychological cycle of this problem and get it to your child care workers. As long as your boy feels unsafe around that teacher, you will be having this problem again. I'll see if I can find the link I refered to back when DD suffering. Nope it is not bookmarked.

By Palmbchprincess on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 02:51 pm:

Ok, I have a question. Maddie is very small, she's just not been gaining weight like her brother and yet the docs say she's fine. I only point that out because her belly is thin, and I would think she would look bloated, but I think she's constipated. She doesn't go very regularly, and when she does it is often just smallish round movements every other day or so. Not small as in rabbit poop, but definitely not normal movements. She'll have soft BMs every so often, yesterday she had explosive diarrea(sp) just once, and seems fine. I was kinda worried this meant she was backed up, is the leakage your kids have had just a small amount? (This wasn't, though I wasn't the one who cleaned her up so I don't really know) Does she just not need to go often, since she doesn't eat much? Ugh... it's actually harder to keep track of these things now that they are potty trained, because she'll often flush before I come in to wipe her.

By Dana on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 04:32 pm:

Crystal, the leakage is what we always called "skid marks." It is just enough to dirty the panties and stink a lot. Unlike the constipated BM which is very much like a rock.

It is possible that Maddie was constipated to some degree. Doesn't mean this was actuallaly the case, just possible. Those little poops she had could have been the precurser to the "skid marks" when only the wet stuff is able to seap around the "rock" inside. When DD would clear herself without the enema (more w/ the help of MOM), it would be explosive. It would start off with a very solid "front" of the movement and then POW all the other stuff afterwards.

I noticed a marked change of personallity w/ DD. When the stoppage would start, she would begin to eat less and less. She would be hungry and want to eat often, but would stop eating within a few bites of starting. She would not be as active, she was not as happy and was usually pretty quite.

If Maddie acted better and more happy after that explosive poop, I would think it was a possibilty the cause was constipation. Keep her eating lots of fresh veggies and fruits. Fresh pears are great fiber. You can add cinnimon to them if they don't like them much. Apples are good, but I have also heard they constipate, so be careful. Strawberries are good. Plums are good. If you can get her to eat prunes for the fun of it, that would be great. DD used to eat prunes, but hates them now. Even if she was not constipated, it would be great for her to increase her fiber w/ the fresh fruits and keep her running smoothly. Better to never have your DD ever have that hard-to-pass stool that *could* start the visious cycle of holding. Hope it never happens to you. It is awful for the kids and very sad for the parents to go thru this as well.

By Palmbchprincess on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 06:22 pm:

Thank you for explaining Dana. Maddie likes prunes, so I'll pick some up tomorrow. I really worry since I hear so many of the moms here struggling with their kids witholding, and a childhood friend actually held to the point of causing serious damage to her rectum, having to go to the ER as a child. Thanks again. Laura, I hope your son is better soon!

By Lauram on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 07:53 pm:

I feel like my prayers have been answered. The other school called and they have an opening starting May 2nd. So his last day will be Arpil 29th! He's taking off Friday, monday, the following MOnday and Tuesday and then the entire third week of April. THat's about as much as I can cover unless someone gets sick. I'm just so relieved that an end is in sight. I LOVE this new school. His big brother went there. They are so compassionate and caring and have a big emphasis on the social/emotional! HOORAY!

BTW- he hasn't "gone" yet. If he doesn't go tomorrow, I'm taking him to the dr on Friday....

By Dana on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 05:37 pm:

Laura, how is your son progressing? Anything happen for him yet? Poor kiddo. Did you see the dr?

By Cat on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 05:49 pm:

Laura, pray for snow days. Hey, it's a thought! lol

By Lauram on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 07:10 pm:

He hasn't gone yet.... If it doesn't happen, I'm calling the dr in the AM. He tried at school but couldn't. I think he's really constipated. I'm having him drink lots of juice right now. He's had oatmeal, raisins, salad. She's gonna blow!

We actually did have a snow delay this am! 2 hours. It was a nice surprise. He's home until Tues now so that's nice too....

I gave the school noitce today that he's leaving. They were freaking out. The teacher is being "extra nice." Honestly, that makes me very suspicious. She's kind of overbearing, too. MOrgan was really clingy again this am.... Not fun...

By Lauram on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 09:03 am:

He still hasn't gone. Called the dr. We're going to do MOM (1 tsp) today and then another tomorrow. If that doesn't work it's on to Colace syrup. Wish us luck!

By Cat on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 09:14 am:

I'm sending *****Potty Vibes***** Laura! lol Lots of luck.

By Debbie on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 09:24 am:

Oh Laura, I am so sorry he is having such a hard time. Once he starts taking the MOM he should be able to go.

By Lauram on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 03:37 pm:

Well, I gave him the MOM about 4 hours ago. Nothing yet. UGH! THis is really gonna be nasty! Thanks for the Potty Vibes! Keep 'em comin'!

By Amecmom on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 06:52 pm:

Laura, if it doesn't work, try the kondremul mixed with apple and prune juice. That's what finally got my son to go.

Ame

By Nicki on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 07:17 pm:

Just made my daughter some oatmeal and raisin cookies. We try to limit sweets with her, but she tends to be a selective eater, and I know she'll eat these. And thankfully a few cookies get things working again.

I hope your little guy is okay. My heart goes out to him. I can't imagine a teacher behaving so inappropriately. SO glad he is going to a new school.

By Dana on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 09:29 pm:

Laura, I know you really don't want to use the enema, but if you don't have success I would strongly recommend it. If you feel better, check w/ your dr first since he/she didn't already tell you to do so. But it has been so long since he has been he has got to be in some terrible discomfort And his intestines are stretching w/ each day that passes. I hated doing it for DD, but it worked and she was so much more happy. I felt badly that I had waited so long to try it. I was trying all the other stuff first, just like you.

Once he goes, make sure you give him the MOM every single day for several weeks so he won't start the pyschological cycle. Plan on this first BM to hurt him when it does happen, even if it happens w/out the enema. He will not want to go again the next time he has the urge. If the MOM is given, he won't have much choice. Don't skip a single day.

Don't worry about giving the MOM each day either in the full dosage amount for weeks on end. It is not like taking Metamucil which can be addictive. MOM is safe for kids and safe to take as long as it is needed. I did a ton of research on this when we had this problem. I was so worried about not being able to stop giving it after 4 months. But everything pointed to MOM being safe for prolonged use.

My heart is just aching for you. I had so many tearful days and nights watching DD suffer for so long.

By Maryg on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 09:44 pm:

My daughter had the same problem. She is now 13, but when she was about 4 or 5, she would hold it in for 6 or 7 days. I modified her diet to high fiber, but sometimes that can be a double whammy and constipate her more. Finally, I had to give her Fletchers Castoria which is a child's laxative. Get this, the doctor told me to give her a double dose in the morning and in the evening, it STILL didn't work all the time. Then he told me to give her a SUPPOSITORY, that seemed to work every time. I hated to do that to her. The doctor found out that she would hold her poop in so long that it would get so big and hard that she would have what's called a fissure scratch in her anus. So it would hurt really bad when she would go poopy. Vicious cycle stuff. The laxative would make the poopy soft, and the suppository would help it slip out. I think the suppository was something that I bought at the store, or maybe the doctor prescribed it, I can't remember (sorry). She was going to half-day preschool at the time.

I would go crazy worrying about this. My sister told me not to worry about it because she was the same way at that age, she never went. She told me that when she started school, and they had PE everyday, that seemed to work.

Sure enough, when my daughter started kindergarten, the poopy problem went away. All in all, I think I went through a good six months with this problem.

However, if your child does not want to go to school, that's a big problem. My daughter, even when she was constipated, always loved school. I guess you have two problems, the constipation and the school.

With your help and your doctor, he will get over this and be fine.

The daycare? Well, in my opinion, I would start looking for another one. One that isn't so fixated on poop. I can understand pee (not peeing for eight hours isn't a good thing, but poopy is different). However, even with the peeing, it is something that you discuss with the parent, and not pressure the child about it. The teacher seems like a real meanie! There is no such thing as preferential treatment when it comes to the health of a child. I think they teach that in Basic Childhood Education courses. If not, then they should. I'm fuming just thinking about it.

Don't worry, it'll be fine. You're doing the right thing working with the doctor, and the director.

By Lauram on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 06:26 pm:

Well, he went last night. It turns out I gave him the wrong dose- I gave him 1 tsp instead of 1 Tablespoon. Well, I added another teaspoon and a half (to make a Tablespoon) and he FINALLY went about an hour later. He never really seemed uncomfortable- but I still was so worried. Luckily, he was in a pull-up! We convinced him to put one on!

So- I'm going to wait and see now. I've been giving juice and raisins today- and grapes. He's very happy to be hanging out at home. I think that is helping. We drove by his new school. He's very excited. DH is going to pick up the paperwork on Monday!

By Colette on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 06:47 pm:

Another thing that can help w/childhood constipation is a "root beer special"

put some - not to much - prune juice in a big glass, fill the rest with rootbeer and put a scoop of ice cream on top. This always worked for my kids.

By Imamommyx4 on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 07:40 pm:

Dd never withheld a BM on purpose, I don't think. But she has had constipation problems. Usually apple or grape juice, apples, grapes and raisins will keep her doing well. We used Karo syrup when she was a baby.
One time, about a year ago, she got really constipated and nothing worked. Not MOM, colace, or any of the above. I am a pharmacist so before I went to the dr, I bought a pediatric Fleets enema. I explained the whole process to her (it's on the box) and she was so uncomfortable that she actually laid down in the living room floor and let me do it. She laid there about 3 1/2 minutes and with a panicked scream that she had to go, I grabbed her up to the potty and she finally went. It had been 5 1/2 days at that point.
The boys never had the constipation problems. I would never have believed that I would be so concerned over anybody bm's. But it's something I always want to know when I pick her up from anybody and I keep a running count in my head of when she should have another.

By Dana on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 07:51 pm:

Oh, I am so happy that your DS finally went (heehee....only on a mommy's board would a slue of woment be checking in on the BM moments!). What a relief, and so glad the MOM did the trick. Even though he went and was fine, I would still do the MOM to be certain there are no ouchies in the next few BMs

By Palmbchprincess on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 09:20 pm:

Good to hear! LOL Dana, I was thinking the same thing. When he's a teen you'll have to tell him how a whole bunch of mommies online were so concerned with his BMs, he'll die from embarrassment!

By Dawnk777 on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:44 pm:

Congratulations to your son! I bet you are relieved.

Uh, people on a dog board are just as concerned about the quality and quantity and consistency of our dogs' poop, as we are about our kids' poops! (At least when they are younger. My kids are too big for that, now!)

By Lauram on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 11:48 am:

LOL! You all are too funny! Well, he went again last night- after his bath- on the potty! I had to hold him, though. He really is afraid. I think he's afraid of falling in the toilet. I've thought that for a long time now. It seems like we've got him back on schedule. The true test will be when he goes back to school on Tuesday. I'm a bit nervous about that....

By Cat on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 12:02 pm:

Way to "go", Morgan!!! lol Sorry. Couldn't resist. Randy was afraid of falling in, too. It took him a good week of having death grips on my neck while sitting there before he started letting go. How much longer at this school?

By Nicki on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 01:26 pm:

So glad he's feeling better!

By Imamommyx4 on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 02:42 pm:

Do you have a small seat for him for the toilet. We had used the trainer from dd's potty chair. Then she found a ladybug cushy seat at Home Depot with dh one day. It looks like a regular seat but just sits easily onto the regular set and makes a smaller hole. Lifts off easily so it's no big deal. DD loves it.

By Meltonmom on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 02:45 pm:

Glad he's feeling better.
MM

By Lauram on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 08:13 am:

He starts at the new school the week of May 2nd. He has today off, next MOn and Tues, a full week, a week off and then another full week. We're counting down (can you tell???) We have a potty ring for him at home-but they don't have one at school- or a stepping stool- and it's a regular sized potty. I think that's the problem in a nutshell. His tummy hurt last night - he didn't go- but I think it was more the Easter hoopla than anything else.....