I just found this website and think that it is real cool!! Just had parent teacher conference--Son, who is 7--8 in May, is very social and doing ok in school. A in Reading, B's & C's in everything else. Teacher states that he is having trouble with fine moter skills, and that she thinks it is a maturation problem. Says that he may benifit from repeating 2nd grade, but that it is totally our call. Son gets along with everyone very well, is not shy and really trys hard. I have had this concern since pre-school but have been assured that he was ready to move along. I am unsure about what to do. Does anyone have any help?

By Cat on Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 03:07 pm:

I don't think I'd hold him back for fine motor problems. Especially if he's getting good grades! I'd try something like occupational therapy instead. The school district should provide it (if it's a public school--private schools don't have to provide as much). What kind of problems is he having? My youngest had some problems for a while and there are great sites out there with things kids can do to improve fine motor skills, such as stringing beads, playing with playdough, etc. We got pencil grips for my son. They helped. He's in 4th grade now, and while his handwriting isn't the greatest, he's doing SO much better than in K, 1st and 2nd. There are some teachers (and former teachers ) on here that I'm sure will pipe in.

By Colette on Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 03:17 pm:

Definately look into OT. She's just bringing this up now? This late in the year? His grades look fine so I would not hold him back.

By Jann on Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 03:21 pm:

Did they say why they would want to hold him back for fine motor skills?

By Trina~moderator on Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 04:32 pm:

Former teacher here. Ditto Cat, Colette and Jann.

By Amecmom on Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 05:48 pm:

Ditto! OT. Have him do a lot of fine motor stuff at home - stringing beads, cutting and pasting fun pictures, etc. Don't hold him over for this!
Ame

By Missmudd on Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 07:10 pm:

I agree w/ everyone else, if he is doing fine academically I really dont even understand the reason for holding him back. So he's clumsy, so what? My handwritting isnt any great shakes and I certainly couldnt be a brain surgeon but that really doesnt have much to do with anything. Especially in an age where we type everything anyway and he is only 8.

By Mommmie on Wednesday, March 2, 2005 - 07:59 pm:

Retention seems a little extreme for a fine motor skills issue.

Here's an article about retention -

http://forum.conductdisorders.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000719

By Willsmom on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 10:07 am:

Thanks for all the great input. One thing that they say about son is that he is very knowledgeable of info but has a hard time getting info onto paper. Also states needs orginazational skills and time management. When we do homework he loses focus and takes along time. Do public schools offer OT.

By Jann on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 10:27 am:

Has he been tested for dysgraphia? It's a form of dyslexia. My nephew has it and he is a genius, but taking info from board to paper has always been tough for him.

By Debbie on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 10:50 am:

Valerie, I see that you live in Illinois, I do too. Yes, public schools in Illinois offer Occupational Therapy. My ds, who is 4, was having trouble with his fine motor skills, so I checked into it. Talk with the school and tell them you want him evaluated.

By Lauram on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 03:03 pm:

No way! Ditto the OT issues. What are they doing in school to help with that? I would personally push that angle.

By Cat on Thursday, March 3, 2005 - 03:32 pm:

Check out this site.

By Willsmom on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 09:07 am:

Thanks for the website--I am going to push the OT angle.

By Willsmom on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 09:09 am:

Does anyone have a child that they wondered about holding back in second grade and Did Not? How did third grade go for them? Everyone tells me that 3rd grade is tough and much more independant work.

By Dana on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 01:09 pm:

I have a current first grader. She is very smart, but clearly not in the "smartest group" in her class. However, very immature. I wanted to hold her back in K, but both 1st grade teacher and her K teacher, said she was too smart.

I wish now I had. As of today, she is adjusting and doing well. However, the first several months of school she longed to be in K again. Her speech teacher told me she had seen DD standing outside her old classroom sort of whimpering. She is definitely not on the same level as the other kids in her class for independant thinking and doing. She also has small motor skill issues (like tying her shoe, working a belt, buttons and socks).

DH and I wish we had listened to our guts last year. We are still looking at holding her back in 1st next year. The problem is she makes such a large jump after Jan of the school year when she is 6.5 yrs old (or 5.5 last year). I just think she was too young to start school at such a "new 5" age. I think she would soar being a 7 year old 1st grader rather than her current 6 yr old status.

We are going to have to really stick to our guns about this when we talk to the school. Even our DD wants to stay back. I have warned her about her friends moving on ahead without her, but still she feels she wants to redo 1st again. She had enough tough times in this grade to make the repeat well worth the time.

With all that said, I wonder will we really hold her back this year? It is such a tough choice. But still, my gut says she would be much better off. She would be fine in 2nd grade, but she would be great in first as an older child. More in line w/ her classmates developmental levels.

By Trina~moderator on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 02:24 pm:

I used to teach 3rd grade, and yes, it's a transitional year where more is expected of them. Has the school suggested any testing? You need to figure out if his difficulties are caused by lack of maturity or if a learning disability is present. If it's a simple case of him being "young" than staying back a year will definitely help, however, if a LD (such as dyslexia/dysgraphia, for example) is causing his difficulties in school then staying back will do no good. In that case special services will be necessary to help him succeed.

I actually had a 3rd grader transfer into my class from another school. He was a smart kid, good reader, did very well in math but writing was very difficult for him. To look at his penmanship you would think he was in Kindergarten. I looked in his file to read comments from previous teachers and they made light of it. I was concerned and spoke with his parents, who agreed to have him tested. Turned out he had dysgraphia. Once he started getting the extra help he needed he did much better.

By Dana on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 06:30 pm:

funny thatI replied to this. Today, DD's K teacher asked if we still felt the same way. I said "yes". She said she has been thinking about it and she agrees that DD would benefit from the extra year to "grow up". She totally agreed that academically there was no reason for delay, but would benefit with her age. Talked to principal today about setting up a meting. Need to talk to teacher now. K teacher said she would sit in and give her thoughts as well. That will be a great help. Holding a child back, esp when grades are good is not something they take lightly.

I'm feeling much better about our feelings now. It is nice to have her K teacher thinking the same. I hold her in great respect and think she is a FANTASTIC teacher.So nice she sees what DH and I see.

By Reds9298 on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 08:43 pm:

Teacher here...In order for him to receive OT in a public school then he would have to be tested for OT problems. If he qualified, then he would get an individual education plan (different states call them different things) that would state specific goals for OT and when they would be reached. You can't just ask for OT unfortunately; it's considered special services. Also, I agree with Trina that it should be determined if he has a learning disability or just is 'young'. Typically a learning disability is characterized by a discrepancy between areas, such as excellent in reading but very poor in math or vice versa. This is also determined through testing.

I agree with other posts that you can give him more time on fine motor activities at home and in the classroom. Also, just out of curiosity, did he start school early? Was he a young kindergartener? MANY times kids who start early or are just at the cut-off age for kindergarten often have maturity problems later, usually around 2nd or 3rd grade. Just wondered about that.

Also, someone above wondered why the teacher was just saying something about the motor skills. As teachers you often want to give kids a chance to grow and see where they go over the course of a year. They progress and change soooo much and jumping to conclusions early can unnecessarily disturb parents and student when it turns out to not really be a problem. Just a teacher's view.

By Reds9298 on Friday, March 4, 2005 - 08:49 pm:

Dana - I've been teaching K/1 for 7 years and you're right that maturity can really make a difference in the classroom. She could go on and be an okay student or stay back a year and be a GREAT student because of the maturation gains she makes during that year. As a K teacher I think it is always hard to decide if a child should be held back. Unfortunately our school corp. doesn't advocate holding a K back for maturity reasons and in my opinion that's such a mistake. It's nice to know that you really respect your dd's K teacher and you share the same feelings. Good luck!

By Willsmom on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 01:38 pm:

Hi all--

I am back--we got report cards and all A's and B's-One c in lanuage arts. Spoke with teacher on phone and still feels that DS problem is maturity and developmental. States he would not qualify or need OT. Not enough of a discrepency. States he is capable of always being A & B student. If he would go to 3rd grade, teacher feels like he would struggle to get C's. She really feels like it is a maturation issue and repeating 2nd grade would give him the time he needs. She did say that in hindsight we should have started kindergarten a year latter. Birthday is May 19, 1997--


I NEED HELP__

By Willsmom on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 01:40 pm:

My main question is does anyone have any simular experiences and how did it work out for you?

By Colette on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 01:43 pm:

She is not the one who makes the decision about OT. You can contact the special ed department at your school and they will arrange for an independent evaluation. I would get a second opinion from a third grade teacher.

By Lauram on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 02:10 pm:

How does she know if there is a discrepancy? He's never been tested, has he? I think you need to talk to the principal. She sounds like she is trying to dx. That's not good. What interventions, if any have been tried?

BTW- we did ALL of our OT privately. It was just easier that way- my son got the help he needed and we didn't have to fight the school about one more thing....

Personally, I would not hold a second grader back unless I was absolutely POSITIVE it was developmental. I'm not sure it is. I'm not sure how the teacher would know it is either.... That is old. I think you need to have more information about your child as a learner before you decide what to do. It's hard to tell from your post if he needs to go to PPT or not, but it's something I think you should investigate....

By Cat on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 04:50 pm:

Request an evaluation in writing. The school HAS to comply with doing the eval if you do that (I think they have 60 or 90 days to get it done). I still don't think I'd hold him back. My 6th grader is very immature and always has been. He's very smart though and perfectly capable of getting all A's and B's (probably all A's if he tried). I really feel if I were to hold him back so he could "catch up" maturity-wise, one--he wouldn't, he'd still be immature in the school's eyes, and two--he'd be bored out of his mind academically and you know what happens when smart kids get bored??? They find things to keep them occupied and they usually end up in trouble. Looking back, I probably should have waited a year to start him (he wasn't 5 until October the year he started kindergarten), but it's too late for that now. I agree with Colette about getting a second opinion, and Laura always has great advise about school issues. She's dealt with both sides of the fence--as a parent and as a teacher. Good luck and keep us updated. We're always here (because we just can't drag ourselves away for too long!).

By Reds9298 on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 04:50 pm:

If he did or did not qualify there should be a meeting with you, teacher, and special ed team or admin. to discuss the results with you. That's your right. You should have signed paperwork stating that he could be tested and from that point there is a time limit on when he should be tested by, as well as a time frame for meeting with parents. I question her telling you this.

As a K teacher, this can happen with K early starters, especially with boys because they tend to be much more immature at that age than girls. I personally feel that holding him back is a good idea. It is going to be hard for him to 'catch up' maturity-wise when he just keeps going with older kids and harder school work each year. It is a difficult decision I know.

By Fraggle on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 04:58 pm:

I think I understand what the teacher is saying-in order to qualify for OT services he might need to be struggling in at least one subject area-in the school district I used to work for a student who was maintaining a grades of C or above would not usually qualify for special ed services. OT was pretty tricky too because a student could not have a diagnosis that only required OT services-in order to qualify for OT services he/she would need diagnosis of e.g. learning disability, speech/language impairment, behavior. I don't know if it is the same in your school district but it may be why the teacher is reluctant to pursue the OT angle. Either way you can definitely request testing through the school system, but I kind of agree with Laura that you should also look into an OT evaluation outside the school system. If an independent evaluation determined that he needed OT services, he would be able to receive services during the summer and maybe be ready for 3rd grade?

By Lauram on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 05:08 pm:

http://www.ldanatl.org/aboutld/parents/ld_basics/dysgraphia.asp

Look at this link on dysgraphia. Does this sound like your son? If so, holding him back won't help him.

By Lauram on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 05:11 pm:

http://www.dyscalculia.org/Edu563.html

More detailed info....

What do you think?!

By Debbie on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 06:54 pm:

Valerie, I live in the state of Illinois also. I have a child that is behind in fine motor skills. He is currently in preschool. I called about having him evaluated through the public schools, they wouldn't do it now. Since my ds is only 4 he has to have a medical diagnoses associated with the problem to be tested. However, once he reaches school age if he continues to have problems and it interfers with his work, then he can be evaluated. Since your ds's teacher thinks that it is effecting his work then he should be tested. I agree with Trina that you need to find out first if it is a maturity issue or if it is a learning disability. If it is indeed a disability and he doesn't get help then holding him back is not going to do him any good. Just call your district office and tell them that your ds's teacher told you that he is having trouble with his fine motor skills and you want him to be tested. They will give you the number of the office that handles the testing.

By Reds9298 on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 07:38 pm:

Just want to clarify my thoughts - if it's a disability, no way to holding him back. Then it won't help. I meant holding him back only if it's just a maturity issue.

By Lauram on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 09:30 am:

Actually, if you feel he needs to be tested, since he is already in school- it is different from a preschooler. Cat is right. You need to write a letter TO THE PRINCIPAL (it HAS to be in writing). They have a certain number of days to hold a meeting with you (called a pre-PPT). At that meeting, it will be determined if he is eligible for testing. They do NOT have to agree to test. Once you write that letter, though, you have entered a legal process. If they agree to test, they have 45 school days to complete the testing.

I'm still not sure if he needs testing- it's hard to determine from your post, but it is something you should be thinking about especially given the teacher's comments.....

By Dana on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 11:19 am:

Valorie, email me. We are holding DD back in 1st grade this next year. I began posting here, but it was turning into a book. Thought it would be more appropriate to "talk" to you directly.

Dana
r i k i d o g @ yahoo . com (without the spaces)

By Kaye on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 12:59 pm:

Just a thought, being a teacher, knowing teachers, they don't recommend retention often. If a teacher said to me, I think it is in his best interest to hold him back, then I would really consider it. Does this teacher have several years experience? Does she have a good rep? If so you really need to try to realize that she may really know what is best.

As for how he will do. He will probably do okay, it will probably be a lot of work for both of you. I guess although I understand the social issues with holding a child back, I also know that I want to give give my child every edge I can. Do you think he would care about repeating a grade? I might would ask his opinion.

By Tayjar on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 05:53 pm:

Do you mind me asking what school district you are in? I live in Illinois, too. My school district is so worried about their state test scores, they recommended 16 out of 60 kids be retained in kindergarten last year. I beleive about 10 were recommended for retention in first grade. I would check with other parents in your district. Is retention the exception?

My friend's DD has been recommended to be retained for 3 years now. The school denied she had any sort of LD. She took her DD to an independent eval by a doctor and it turns out she has auditory processing disorder. Holding her back wouldn't have helped her. She is now in a different classroom for part of the day where she gets one on one attention.

Before I would hold him back, I would make sure there is no underlying learning disability. I would also tell the school district you will have him tutored over the summer. You do not have to make a decision until August. Holding a child back can be the best thing at times but you have to make sure it isn't for the convenience of the school. You are your child's best advocate. Make sure they do everything they can for him.

By Willsmom on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:31 pm:

HI ALL--

SORRY FOR THE DELAY! The Flu has struck our house--ugh!! Thanks for all the input. Sons teacher is not telling us to hold him back but telling us it is something to consider due to the maturation issue. She says that it is totally our call. She says that he is capabale of more than what he is doing. For example, when he has to write something, it is very messy and many times illegible. Son knows that we are talking about staying back in second grade and is adament that he does not want to. When asked why, he says that he won't have any friends and that he knows that he can do the third grade work. Last night he had to write some paragraphs and sentances and it took him a VERY long time to do that and a WHOLE lot of coaching from me. Teachers point was that the written language is what is difficult for son. Thanks Everyone!!

By Lauram on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 01:00 pm:

Can he type it or dictate it? Or is it composing stories that is difficult?

By Willsmom on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 01:40 pm:

We have not tryed that yet. Actually I would say that this is a fairly new task that they have started. He can tell you everything about anything you would want to know.

By Jann on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 02:25 pm:

I know I have mentioned dysgraphia before, and the more you post, it sure sounds like something you might want to rule out.

http://www.as.wvu.edu/~scidis/dysgraphia.html

SYMPTOMS

1. Students may exhibit strong verbal but particularly poor writing skills .

2. Random (or non-existent) punctuation. Spelling errors (sometimes same word spelled differently); reversals; phonic approximations; syllable omissions; errors in common suffixes. Clumsiness and disordering of syntax; an impression of illiteracy. Misinterpretation of questions and questionnaire items. Disordered numbering and written number reversals.

3. Generally illegible writing (despite appropriate time and attention given the task).

4. Inconsistencies : mixtures of print and cursive, upper and lower case, or irregular sizes, shapes, or slant of letters.

5. Unfinished words or letters, omitted words.


6. Inconsistent position on page with respect to lines and margins and inconsistent spaces between words and letters.


7. Cramped or unusual grip, especially holding the writing instrument very close to the paper, or holding thumb over two fingers and writing from the wrist.

8. Talking to self while writing, or carefully watching the hand that is writing.

9. Slow or labored copying or writing - even if it is neat and legible.