How do they test for a nonverbal learning disability? Robin has recently decided he's not going to read at school anymore. He absolutely refuses. I'm begining to wonder if there's a reason other than just stubborness. Now, he's a smart kid. He can read just about anything you put in front of him, meaning verbally decoding the words. I'm not sure he's understanding it, though. I've always thought reading for him is something to just do. He goes from point A to point B. That's the goal--just to finish. I've always thought he just isn't paying attention to what he's reading. What if it's not that he's just not paying attention? What if he really doesn't understand. I tried to get him to silently read a couple paragraphs and then tell me what it was about. Then I was going to read it aloud (or have him read it aloud) to see if he understood it better. He wouldn't even do that for me. Maybe I'll try that later. Anyway, any info or thoughts would be great. I'm just kinda wondering at this point. TIA

By Marcia on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:18 am:

I know that I can read and not take in anything I've read. I don't have a problem with understanding, but an absolute dislike of reading. I'm an auditory learner, so prefer to be taught out loud, on tape, etc. It's just what works for me. Two of my kids are the same. It could be the same with Robin.
Has he ever been able to answer questions about what he's read? I'd keep trying that.
How are his eyes?
What angle is he reading at? If you hold the book above eye level, it's easier to read.
I completely understand your frustration! I deal with it daily with my 8 and 11 year olds.

By Karen~moderator on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:41 am:

Cat, my nephew has that - I'll ask my sister about the diagnosis/testing procedure.

By Lauram on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:47 am:

From what I understand, that would not be a nonverbal learning disability. That would be more math/social issues. There are tests that test for it.

As far as the reading issue goes, we hav ethe same problem with Douglas. I have always thought it's more of an ADHD thing myself. It is VERY hard for him to focus on reading especially after the meds wear off. We have done things like books on tape or me reading aloud. That really works well.

By Cat on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 12:10 pm:

Marcia, he has glasses and the rx is current (just got a new pair a couple months ago). He has trouble answering questions about what he's read, but I always thought it was because he just wasn't paying attention.

Thanx, Karen. Let me know what you sister says.

Laura, Robin doesn't have any problems with math and is actually in an accelerated math program (when they can get him to go). He blows his teachers away with his math ability. Social skills are lacking, though. Maybe it is just the ADHD. Unfortunatly, at school they won't let him use books on tapes. I really think part of the problem is what they "read" at school is so absolutely BORING he just can't stand it. They want to force him, though. It creates a vicious little cycle.

I just talked to his teacher's aide because they called not 25 minutes after school started this morning and said he is refusing to go to any specials and is almost in tears. TOTALLY unlike him. There's got to be something else going on. We did decrease his lithium dose by 1/3. I left his pdoc a message to call me. The school called the school social worker to talk to him. I'm expecting to have to go talk to him too, since when the TA asked him to come to the phone his answer was "Screw you." Totally inappropriate, but she said for now she's going to let that slide because it wasn't worth the fight at this time. ARGH!!! So here I sit, stressing and waiting for the phone to ring. *sigh*

By Cat on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:02 pm:

Robin's teacher ended up calling about 10 minutes after I posted and said she nor the social worker got anywhere with Robin. He just shut down with them and wouldn't talk to them at all (other than being nasty and calling them names). So I went to the school and when I got there he was doing a math quiz. He had moved the desk he was at to right in front of the classroom door, leaving only about a foot to squeeze in. I stood there by him until he finished his quiz and then asked him if he wanted to go somewhere and talk, which he said yes to. We went to an empty office and talked for about 20-30 minutes about what he sees as his problems at school and possible solutions to these problems. It was really a great conversation and very enlightening. He said reading is boring and he doesn't like the stories they read. He also said he doesn't like art because he "can't draw". There's that perfectionism showing! We made a copy of our notes and then I asked him how the rest of today was going to go. He got really anxious and started crying. So we took the copy of our notes to his teacher and told her he'd like to talk about them tomorrow with her, and I asked her to call me this afternoon to talk about them. Then I brought him home. There was no way he'd have been able to stay the way he was. I don't know if he needs some anti-anxiety meds or what. I tell ya, homeschooling is looking really good right now. So now I'm waiting for his teacher to call me and the pdoc to see what he thinks. Thanx for all the support and thoughts.

By Marcia on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 04:16 pm:

I have to say, Nicole did a complete turn around when I started part time homeschooling. We started with language and math at home, and now it's just language. She's so much happier all around, now that she's not being forced to do all of the reading required at school. I still expect her to read, but she can read fun books here. She still hates it, and it's a struggle, but she does have functional reading skills.

I've done after school care for a young man for years, and he's on lithium. His dosage was cut over the summer, and his anxiety level went over the top. He's had to have it increased a bit again, to level him off. They're still playing with his meds now.

I hope they figure this out soon. Poor Robin must be so frustrated by all of this, not to mention you!!!

By Lauram on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 06:52 pm:

{{{{{Cat}}}}} It's so hard when they have these set backs. BTDT (and then some! ) It sounds like he told you what is going on with the reading. Why won't they let him listen to books on tape? It's in Douglas' 504 that he can do it (I usually send some in that I get from the library). He uses headphones. Does he have a 504 or IEP? If so, call a mtg and get that in there if they are giving you grief. Interest has a lot to do with it. Especially with ADHD kids. Are there books he's into at home? Maybe you could go at it from that angle?

It sounds like there is more going on than just this reading thing though. I know what happens to Douglas if his meds aren't right. His anxiety goes through the roof. I'm also wondering if something happened though.... Would he share that with you if it had?

By Cat on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:27 pm:

Pdoc has increased his lithium back to 450mg a day. He said obviously the lower dose isn't working. If things continue the way they are he'll think about adding an anti-anxiety med. Robin's teacher called and we talked about the notes Robin and I took from our talk today. Hopefully we can get things worked out. I talked to my daycare mom that teaches at Robin's school, who is his social studies teacher, and she really doesn't think he has a learning disability. She thinks he either isn't interested, or there's a problem with some of the teachers. I mentioned Learning RX or Sylvan learning centers and she said they'd probably be able to identify the problem, but they are very expensive, which I had heard. She actually tutored for Sylvan before she had kids. His teacher said she'd do a computer reading comp test with him to see where he is. He should cooperate, since he really likes working on the computer in the classroom. He doesn't want to work on the ones in computer class, though! Go figure.

Laura, he has an IEP, but the reading they want him to do is their reading book/curriculum. That's not going to be on tape. I don't know if she'd diviate from the curriculum or not. She didn't sound like she would. Yet another reason to homeschool.

We'll see how tomorrow goes.

By Lauram on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:13 am:

It sounds to me like the daycare mom might be on to something. I'm not a big fan of Sylvan, etc. If I were you, I'd just have him read something and then see how well he can retell it. You'll get a good sense that way. It sounds like the computer test might give you some info too. It really sounds from your post like the issue is much bigger than the reading.

As far as the book on tape thing goes- that's ridiculous! Especially if he has an EIP. SOmeone can EASILY read the books/material into a tape recorder if they insist on doing the basal (which IMHO is probably why he hates reading to begin with!)

As far as homeschooling goes, I know I could never do it with Douglas. It would RUIN our relationship. It is so tough. I've been there thinking it was my only option though. I feel your pain! I hope you are able to sort things out. Have you considered calling a PPT? I think one is warranted!

By Marcia on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:22 am:

Laura, I thought that Nicole and I would kill each other if we homeschooled, but it has been the exact opposite. The school stress disappeared, which made home life 100% better. The change literally happened over night.

By Cat on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 11:28 am:

Laura, I'm the mom who's said from the time Robin could walk that if I homeschooled him, I'd kill him! lol However, at this point, I know him so much better than his teachers, I can handle him better, and if he cooperates better with me than the people at school, I'm sure he'd learn better at home. Shoot, they're calling me every day anyway, and half the time I have to go get him because they'd rather send him home than deal with him. I could fight that, because from what I understand according to the laws with his IEP they can't send him home like that. But I don't want Robin to have to deal with the backflack from that. I'd just have to figure out when to homeschool with all the daycare kids here. That could be a real problem. That, and the fact that he's not a sefl starter and I'm not that organized! lol

Laura, what's a PPT? Some sort of therapist?

Dh is looking more into that job in Alabama that I mentioned on the other board last week. If he got that, I could afford to not do daycare and homeschool, or we could afford a private school, which would have smaller classes. That's one of the big problems. That and teachers that just don't understand. Pray they'll hold that job for him. It would be wonderful. Good pay, closer to family (but far enough away to keep out of the drama!), and we'd be moving away from a lot of other stressors here. We love Colorado, but there are so many things here that need to change (school, church problems, neighbors, etc). Maybe we're just used to moving every 2-3 years and I'm getting antsy! lol

By Lauram on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 02:17 pm:

A PPT is a Planning and Placement Team meeting. You and his team would have to be there to discuss the issue. You have to send a letter (it must be in writing) to the principal to request one. You can request one at any time. Let me know if you have more questions about it.

You are right, they can not send him home without a change in placement mtg (like a PPT) as well. SOunds like there are a lot of things not going well. I hear you about knowing him best and about the phone calls. Believe me, I've been there! Sometimes removal is your only option. Luckily, we've always managed to find an alternative when we've had to remove Douglas (that has happened twice so far!) I just know how rough summers are- I know I couldn't do it. I don't want to have to be his teacher and his mother. The two roles are different, and he needs both of them. I can't be both- one of those jobs is just too demanding. Douglas is VERY tough though, as you know. I know Robin is very similar too.

I hope that job works out for your dh. Sounds like that might be a good possibility.

By Cat on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 02:58 pm:

Thanx, Laura. I haven't had any phone calls today, yet. They've got almost 3 hours left and his teacher is out this afternoon so he'll have a sub (with the regular aide). Actually, breaks aren't too terrible. Yes, he gets on my nerves at times, but all kids do. The trouble I have is when BOTH boys are home. They feed off each other. We can do or go just about anywhere if we just have one of the kids with us. Robin's actually very good if it's just him and me. He argues with his dad a lot, but they've got such similar personalities it's not even funny (really, it's not). We'll see how today goes. We made a deal that if he does well the rest of this week, does what they ask of him and does his reading, I'll take him to a book store and he can get a book or two. He asked if he can get a magazine and I told him yes, as long as it's appropriate. He wants the newest WWE magazine. So hopefully that will be enough encentive to behave. He still didn't want to "pinky-swear" though. Said he wasn't that sure. lol I'll let you know how it's going. Thanx.

By Conni on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 03:21 pm:

((((HUGS CAT)))) You know, I know where you're coming from.

I hope today was a successful day.

By Cat on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 07:22 pm:

Today he got nothing but good remarks on his point sheet! He go 100% plus 4 points (he gets extra points for group and things like that). I just asked how school was today and he said, "good". He said his TA got him into PE instead of art (yeah!!!) and that his talk with his teacher went okay. I asked if he thinks they got things resolved and he said sorta. The TA went to math with him and he said he did his reading today, but it was still boring. lol Tomorrow's another day. I hope he has another one like today.

By Tink on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 09:54 pm:

^5 to Robin! A great day sure makes it all look a little better. Can he stay in PE and not deal with art at all? Best of luck coming to some kind of resolution with this, Cat. None of this can be easy. {{{Cat}}}

By Cat on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 08:19 am:

Yes, Trina! He's get to stay in PE for the semester. I really believe his problem with art is he's such a perfectionist. I can get an art book and we can study it here at home, but asking him to draw something just stresses him out. He does like to draw, but on his terms. I'm also going to try and talk to the music teacher to see what they're studying. Robin told me music is hard, that's why he doesn't like it. I can help him with that. I took piano for 6 years and was in band for another 7, plus all the choir, musicals, competitions, etc in high school. I think once Robin 'gets it' he'll excel in music. He's got natural ability and he's good at math.

By Lauram on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 01:09 pm:

Glad things seem to be getting better for him. Can it be the meds? Do they work that fast?

BTW- I think the problem with Douglas and I is that we also have very similar personalities! He knows I'm his biggest fan, though! It's also so exhausting being with him 24/7. He gets up at 6AM and goes to bed at 10PM. In the middle, he is ON FIRE!

By Karen~moderator on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 07:42 am:

CAT, if you are still interested, I will have my sister's response this weekend.

By Cat on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 11:17 am:

Thanx, Karen. If she has time, sure. If not, no big deal. I really don't know if that's it anyway. From what I've researched and from talking to others I don't think that's his problem. We're still trying to figure out what IS his problem!

Robin did great again yesterday, btw. Today's only a 1/2 day so it should go pretty quickly and hopefully well.

By Karen~moderator on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 11:25 am:

Cat, here is what my sister sent me:

When we had Eric tested this is the list:

* Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) (Cognitive Functioning including discrepancies in verbal and perfomrance IQ and perceptual organization - This one is really important and telling in identifying NVLD kids)

* Bender-Gestalt (Neurological Impairment)

* Rorschach (Emotional - shows depression or kids at risk for suicidal ideation)

* Children's Apperception Test/Thematic Apperception Test ( putting stories to pictures; shows thematic patterns in thinking, level of self-esteem, etc.)

* Draw-A-House-Tree-Person-Test/Family Drawing (Shows happiness, anger, aggression or general perceptions of one's family and personal world)

* Sentence Completion Test (Again shows general perception,self-perception and patterns of thinking)

One day when we're together, I'll let you read this report. It makes me so sad every time I do, but it's really interesting and really telling.

By Cat on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 05:09 pm:

Thanx, Karen. Thank your sister for me, too. Are these all tests the school did or did she have them done elsewhere? Thanx again.

By Karen~moderator on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:17 pm:

I'll find out. :-)

By Paulas on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:42 pm:

Cat, when he is reading is he sounding out each word (decoding)? How fluent is his reading? If he is sounding out each word and his reading does not have any fluency then chances are there is not much comprehending going on.

What is he interested in? If it's hockey or skateboarding or whatever...find books on those topics.

I would also talk to the art teacher. They should be doing more than just drawing in art.

By Cat on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:46 pm:

Paula, he has no trouble reading outloud. He can decode about ANY word and it's very fluent. I talked to him the other day and he said he's bored. I asked him if he understood what he read and he said yes, but it's still boring. He wants harder words to read. (that's what he said) We did go to Barnes and Nobles today and he picked out two books--Witch and Ravemaster. Both are the first in a series so we can get him more when he finishes them. Art isn't a problem anymore. I plan on getting some art books and we can go over them at home. We'll see what the base library has.

By Karen~moderator on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 09:36 am:

Cat, here is my sister's reply to the question of *who* administered these tests:

"The school may do it, but not to the degree that Eric was tested. They do have their own testing protocol which Eric went through partially, after he had all the other testing done. She should ask her child's school psychologist or guidance counselor about the specific tests I mentioned to you, as well as discussing with them the particular issues she's concerned about. If it really is a problem, the school will have already noticed and she may already be getting some sort of intervention in the classroom.

The other path would be to talk to a child psychiatrist or child psychologist in private practice. That's what we did and that's how we got to the person who did the testing. If they're good, they'll know the right questions to ask to determine which tests are appropriate.

And do have her check some of the NVLD websites. There are quite a few of them and she may get some ideas there too.

Good luck to her."

By Karen~moderator on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 09:37 am:

I've posted my sister's reponses to this issue here, so if other moms have the same problem or questions about their child, the information is here for them as well. Just wanted to clarify *why* I didn't email all this to you, Cat. I hope it's OK with you that I handled it this way.

By Karen~moderator on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 07:52 am:

Bumping UP for Cat.............

By Cat on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 08:45 am:

Thanx, Karen. The way you handled it was great.