Put downs
Moms View Message Board: Parenting Discussion: Archive July-December 2004:
Put downs
I'm at my wits end. DS is learning some awful words on the playground (and using them himself when he gets back to class). He has big social issues due to his other issues, but I'm trying to get him to understand that these words are hurtful. Strategies I've tried are: "no put downs", "Don't label it, just say what the person is DOING that is upsetting you." "You owe me a quarter every time you use one of those words." ANyone have any good advice. He really struggles with social issues (pragmatics) and I think that's why it's not "getting through."
(((HUGS))) I hope everything resolves, maybe its just a stage? I dont have much advice but when I was young the good old soap in the mouth to "wash away the dirty words" worked for me, LOL!
So, be pragmatic. "I don't allow the use of those kinds of words in this house. I will explain to you why this word is unacceptable. The next time you use this word or any other word or phrase which I have told you is unacceptable, the following will happen. ..
Then, think of a punishment - usually a denial or removal of a privilege or important toy or recreation - which has increments - 15 minutes for the first offense, 30 for the second, and so on.
I hear you that your son has social issues and struggles with them. My oldest and youngest both had struggles with social issues and with things that, in their minds, "didn't make sense". My oldest learned to modify his behavior and has learned how to be a happy person and get along with people. My youngest hasn't, is not happy, and has very few friends.
How old is he? The kindergarten teacher I used to work with would take the child, look very sad and tell them that these words hurt hearts and hearts take a very long time to heal.
I know it sounds simple, but it helped with a lot of kids. They loved the teacher and did not want her to be sad. It made a much bigger impression than getting angry.
He's 7. He doesn't get WHY it hurts people, though when he understands what he's saying he gets very upset (ie the empathy is there but there's a social skill missing, which I can't put my finger on). He hears others saying it on the playground and doesn't see that they are hurtful. He has a VERY difficult time reading tone of voice and facial expressions. This is the child who could talk in paragraphs at 15 mo but I had to teach the names of feelings by using the picture symbols used wtih autistic kids. He still has trouble identifying his own emotions-particularily when he is emotional! The behavior mod method for him we've tried is pay a quarter- but I'm looking for ways to actually teach the social skill.
Keep the ideas coming! 
Have you tried role playing? Or enroll him in a social skills class, possibly, since they usually do role-playing.
It's got to be difficult for a child who has trouble reading social cues and what not. A lot of kids throw insults around in a joking manner, esp boys, and to have to learn when it's joking boy stuff and mean hurtful stuff (even though it may be the exact same words) and react accordingly to fit in has got to be confusing.
Soap in the mouth is a Child Protective Services thing now, and I wouldn't do that, although I know a lot of folks have had success with it.
You hit the nail right on the head! It's that gray area of when something is "ok" and when it's not. He freaks about drama/role playing. It's scary for him. Even puppets when he was little. No idea why....
Lauram, this sounds so much like my oldest son, who has a mildish form of Asperger's Disease, which is a type of Autism. I can only tell you that I spent a lot of time explaining to him why he shouldn't say X or Y. I tried explaining in a tone of I know you don't understand this so let me explain it to you because I know you don't want to hurt people's feelings or upset people.
This son is, by family concensus, the nicest person in our family, kind, understanding, thoughtful, reliable. We look forward to his birthday and Christmas cards because they are always right on point. He usually buys blouses for me for gifts and I asked him once how he managed to always get it right (because he does). He told me he just walked through the stores until he heard bells telling him "this one is for Mom" - which made me cry.
Laura, I found it was really, really important to figure out how to say things to my son so that he understood I was trying to help him understand, not criticize him or scold him. Once I was able to work that out it was much easier, because he, like your son, really wanted to know and wanted help in trying to figure things out so he wouldn't hurt people or make them angry.
Laura, my son is high-functioning autistic and they are using "social stories" to teach him some of these vague, unspoken rules of society. It is almost like the script of a role-play that isn't acted out. They use these with basic black and white pictures of the situation. They will use the same picture for a story where the teasing is appropriate and a story where it is hurtful or inappropriate. Of course, you can't cover every situation but you can start with some of the situations that have already come up. Good luck, this is never an easy thing to explain.
I am surprised that no one has commented on what is going on the playground???!!!
I am not saying that I expect "the world to revolve" around my daughter, kids will be kids, but I am saying that I would address this at school as well.
Maybe something mentioned casually, "My son is picking up some ugly words and insulting behavior on the playground, I know these things happen, but can "we" (the teachers) sort of look out for this kind of thing? I am distressed that he is learning bad behavior at school."
Maybe they could kind of "look out" for him.....
My sister's college degree is in Psychology and she has worked with autustic kids for years. One thing they do (they do lots of things) but one thing they do is keep very small marshmellows and drip bottles of oil and vinegar Italian salad dressing. The teachers repeatedly pattern helpful, thoughtful behavior, when the autustic child begins to "pick up" the behavior, saying thank you or your welcome, they are given one small marshmellow on their tongue with "good child!" or something to reinforce the positive experience. Reinforcing the positive goes on for quite some time, two or even three weeks, THEN after the child has a "pattern" of getting one marshmellow for sweet behavior, if the "old" behavior: yucky words, spitting, biting, whatever, resurfaces...THEN the child is given a drop or two of Oil and Vinegar Salad Dressing! Now, it doesn't hurt them, but when they have their mouth open and they are expecting the marshmellow and they get the salad dressing, it is a strong message that "ugly mouths" are not allowed. My sis says there is always LOTS more marshmellows than salad dressing at the school because administering the salad dressing once or twice for the old behavior instead of the marshmellows really works and after two or three times, seldom has to be repeated! Good Luck.
AJ
Tink- Do you know where I could buy the social stories you are talking about. That sounds exactly like what I am looking for! Do you know what they are called? I love that they are not role-playing (he would NEVER go for that).
Ginny- My son sounds similar to yours. We ahve looked at Asperger's as a possibility- but he doesn't seem to fit it exactly (though he has many other dx's!) Like yours, he is extremely thoughtful, compassionate and would never, ever want to hurt someone's feelings!
Have you heard of NLD (or NVLD)? I copied this:
What is NLD? Nonverbal learning disorders (NLD) is a neurological syndrome consisting of specific assets and deficits. The assets include early speech and vocabulary development, remarkable rote memory skills, attention to detail, early reading skills development and excellent spelling skills. In addition, these individuals have the verbal ability to express themselves eloquently. Moreover, persons with NLD have strong auditory retention. Four major categories of deficits and dysfunction also present themselves:
•motoric (lack of coordination, severe balance problems, and difficulties with graphomotor skills).
•visual-spatial-organizational (lack of image, poor visual recall, faulty spatial perceptions, difficulties with executive functioning* and problems with spatial relations).
•social (lack of ability to comprehend nonverbal communication, difficulties adjusting to transitions and novel situations, and deficits in social judgment and social interaction).
•sensory (sensitivity in any of the sensory modes: visual, auditory, tactile, taste or olfactory)
*definition of executive functioning: Neuropsychological functions including, but perhaps not limited to, decision making, planning, initiative, assigning priority, sequencing, motor control, emotional regulation, inhibition, problem solving, planning, impulse control, establishing goals, monitoring results of action, self-correcting.
Yes, I've heard of a non-verbal learning disability. Also have explored that one. His fine motor is actually great, he is AWESOME in math, and he is way above grade level in all academic areas so he won't even be considered for this. BUT- he certainly has the social issues. NVLD does come with Tourette's many times though (which he does have). He also has ADHD, Generalized Anxiety disorder, sensory integration disorder and obsessive compulsive behaviors.... 
Oh wow, Laura, my son had a friend over Saturday with the exact same combination dx's as your son. This playmate has some social issues, too, but he did fine over here. He wouldn't sit down the entire time bec he only sits on balance balls, but he didn't have any other big issues. At one point his mom called to see if she should come get him and he said he wanted to stay some more which is really great for him (to want to stay away from home in an unfamiliar place and I had 4 neighborhood kids over too that he didn't know - yet he stayed).
My son has ADHD and LD and attends an LD school, so all of his school friends have some kind of dx. I have not met a kid with NVLD that I know of, so I'm not sure what it "looks" like, but I've heard of it and I heard these kids were very verbal very young which made me think of your son.
It makes me think of him too- except it's not an exact fit because he's off the charts (on the high end) academically in all areas- language, math, science, etc....
His tics were so bad today! He has a new one: "Boom, baby!" (you know- from Emperor's NEw Groove). AHHHH! Sometimes I have to just sit back and laugh at it. It really is so absurd sometimes!
Hugs, Laura! I know after a few days like you have had you can probably use all the hugs you can get. Seth's therapists write the social stories for each child depending on what the problem is. They have saved all of the stories from each client so they have a database of stories to start with but most of them are pretty basic. Right now, Seth is working on the consequences of an accidental action vs. a deliberate one so his picture might show a little boy, holding a basketball, standing above a little girl lying on the ground. The therapist says "Nicholas was running with the basketball and looked back to see if he was being chased. He bumped into Alicia and she fell. Will the yard duty send Nicholas to the principal for pushing Alicia or will she say that Nicholas needs to watch where he is going and he should apologize?" After Seth answers they move onto a new picture but later they come back to that and the therapist says "Nicholas took the ball out of Alicia's hands and pushed her on the ground because he was angry. What will the yard duty do?"
I don't know exactly what your son is doing that you don't like but you could find a pic online that is similar to the situation and say "David and Tom are playing on the playground when David trips but he jumps up, laughs and keeps running. Tom says "You are such a klutz!" Does David get his feelings hurt and cry or does he laugh and say " I sure am." How does David feel? Then say "David and Tom are playing on the playground when David falls and grabs his ankle and moans. Tom says "You are such a klutz!" What does David do? How does he feel?
All I have ever heard these referred to as social stories but I can try to find out if there are any premade books that the therapists know of. It may take me a few days. I hope that helps.
BTW, can you train your ds to say "Mom is wonderful" or something, just so that you are getting some compliments throughout the day? My kids just liked saying "Boom, baby" for a while and it drove me up the wall. I can sympathize...with that, anyway.
Laura, try http://www.superduperinc.com and search for "pragmatics" and you might find some stuff that would be appropriate. Also http://www.linguisystems.com/topic.php?topic=16 and www.thinkingpublications.com. HTH!
Look at those sites that Pam suggested. There are some awesome products! I really liked the Super Duper site. It looked like they had some great games.
Thank you so much! I will!
LOL! A "Mom is wonderful" tic sounds like an awesome one!
I just bought this one. http://www.superduperinc.com/P_Pages/ph5.htm
It looks perfect! Thank you both soooooo much!
That's looks great! Let us know if it is helpful. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for your ds.
Laura, my dear oldest son, Donald, is also exceptionally bright. His fine motor control was so good and his persistence so great he took the screws out of his crib when he was about 2 and the screws out of his glasses at age 4 (without tools). He would focus on something so intensely that he had no awareness of what was going on around him. He would get obsessed with one topic and keep on it endlessly - I learned more about grasshoppers and praying mantids than anyone ever wants to know.
He was in special ed from age 4 to 8th grade. He went from Special Ed (in the days before mainstreaming and with lots of state funding for special ed which paid full tuition and bussing) to 9th grade at Phila's academic high school, Central. In Central he did very poorly in literature because the behavior of fictional characters doesn't make sense to him. He did exceptionally well in Chemistry and Math and his chem teacher, the head of the department, insisted he take the advanced placement exams and he placed out of two semesters of chemistry, one of math, and one of French. While in special ed he did extremely well in French, placing in the top 50 of the final level of a contest involving US and Canadian students.
He had a very difficult time understanding people, and that was really hard work. He especially could not understand why other kids were "mean", and still cannot just shrug it off when someone is unpleasant, though he is better about walking away from such people and events. He has always been a non-violent person. Happily, his Boy Scout troop leader was hipped on karate and for two years one hour of each meeting was karate lessons. When he complained about boys at school threatening him and I suggested he hit back, he said he couldn't do that, and that the teacher just ignored the bullying. I suggested he use his karate skills to keep the other boys from hurting him - I will always remember his glowing face when he came home from school the next day and reported that he had used the karate to keep them from hitting him and "it drove them crazy, Mom, and then they just gave up!" A few years ago he witnessed a man being mugged on the U.Penn campus and without thought grabbed the mugger from behind and grappled him to the ground until the police came. I would never have known except that it was in the paper the next day and I asked him.
He has a difficult time with stress and anxiety. With 20/20 hindsight, I wish I had discouraged him from going to Drexel U (his chem teacher's suggestion) and urged Temple instead, because Drexel is a pressure cooker school and in the technical courses if you don't get something immediately there is no time to catch up (4 semesters a year). So he did not do very well - compounded by his not being able to get into the chem track and selecting the electronics track because his dad is an electronics engineer. It didn't help that at the same time he was struggling with his sexual identity.
His has been a difficult life at times. His main job is making deliveries for a fast food shop in the U.Penn/Drexel area -he finally dropped out of Drexel after four years and says he was so traumatized by his experience every time he thinks about going back to school he has an anxiety attack. But, he supplements his income with consulting contracts that come to him through his web site on lighting, bulbs, and lighting related matters, including several nice contracts with a firm in Canada whose boss is so fascinated by how his mind works that he brings him up for a social weekend a couple of times a year.
The social games approach sounds like a very good one. The trick - and it is not easy - is to get your son to try to think about how another person is feeling, and to do it before instead of after the occurrence which might cause hurt feelings. I won't tell you that it will be easy for you or your son. I will tell you that Don and I managed to make it work, so that he is the loved, trusted and kind person that he is.
Thank you, Ginny. It is nice to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel! I think what you said is key about having empathy BEFORE the occurence. Hopefully, we'll get there....
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