Found burnt toilet paper and toilet paper rolls:-0
Moms View Message Board: Parenting Discussion: Archive July-December 2004:
Found burnt toilet paper and toilet paper rolls:-0
Okay.....what's appropriate here? Yesterday afternoon DSD(17) and I were standing in the laundry room folding clothes while DSD(12) was using the bathroom. When she came out both DSD(17) and I smelled something that smelled like insence. So we looked. DH started looking also. We never found anything. (DSD-12 has been caught hiding ciggerette butts in the bathroom before) Well, later that evening I found a burnt piece of toilet paper in the trashcan in the bathroom. When asked about it DSD(12) said yes, she had set it on fire, didn't know why, had hid my lighter in the cotton balls in the bathroom but didn't know why she'd done that either. Later, after they had gone to bed, I found 3 toilet paper rolls that had also been burnt. She admits to burning them....like it's no big deal and we are bothering her by asking about it.
DH and I are racking our brains on an appropriate 'punishment' that will keep her from even THINKING about setting things on fire in the bathroom. Haven't come up with anything. If I do nothing, I know from past experience, that it will continue to go on.
Help????
You know I think I would find some sort of fire safety course to make her go to. People who have a facination with fire also seem to miss out on the dangers of fire. At the very least I would try to find pictures and stories about just how quickly a fire can get out of hand (i immediately think of Mike and amy here).
I would also think about involving a professional. Children who light fires and don't know why they did and "it's no big deal" may have issues which could lead to more serious and dangerous things.
Call your fire department... they'll meet with you, and talk to her about it.
Here's what our city offers. I'd strongly suggest you see if you're has something similiar.
Juvenile Firesetter Intervention Program
{{{{{Beth}}}}}
I agree about calling the fire department and asking for advice/help. I'm sure they have a program for things like this, they used to come to our school and put on these types of programs all the time. I bet if they had her one on one they could really get through to her. I do this to my son all the time and I don't know if it would work with someone so much older but if we see a house that has burnt down I point out that is what happens when kids play with matches that why it is so important never to do that...etc.
Could she have been smoking in the bathroom and accidently caught it on fire or caught it on fire to cover the smoke....far fetched but it sounds like something a 12 year old would come up with as a cover up.
Fire dept. is a great idea, but I think counseling is also. Firesetting and smoking at age 12 are both very high-risk behaviors that send out a lot of red flags to big trouble ahead in the teenage years. I'd seriously jump on this in a big way ASAP.
I agree with what has been said.
(((Beth))) that has got to be a tough situation to be in.
Honestly, I can count how many times/and for what??/ I have spanked my kids. I am not big on spanking, but in this case.....
I would set fire to her tail feathers......
Fire is nothing to play around with and she may need to know that there will be pain involved if she continues this behavior.
AJ
I would do a little search on the internet to make sure using toilet paper rolls is not a sign of drug use. You know, how kids make drug paraphernalia out of every day things.
You can ask the moms on the substance abuse forum at www.conductdisorders.com as they have *seen it all*!!
I would call the local fire dept as well. They are happy to meet with you. Much better now, than after a fire call to your house.
Mommmie makes a good point too. So many things that our young kids can get into these days.
My first thought was drug use, I'd be very concerned about that as well.
I think MOST kids are fascinated by fire about that age. I actually did something similar as a kid...
Interestingly years later our house actually burned down! Nothing I did had anything to do with it BUT I might actually have set the house on fire during my previous "experiments".
Of course kids don't realize the risks of playing with fire so we have to teach them. I'm MUCH more in favor of teaching than just punishing.
Otherwise, they may do it anyway when you're less likely to catch them because they think it's just one more thing that mom and dad are telling them not to do!
Some ideas:
Visit the firehouse and let a fireman tell them what can happen (they'll respect them more).
Look for stories about fires and people losing their homes on the Internet.
Make up a story about a child who accidently sets a fire.
Here's some Internet sources:
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/kids/l.htm
http://www.redhotdots.net/
"Every year, over 100,000 fires are started by children." That's a true statistic!
This is one time YOU WANT TO MAKE YOUR CHILD AFRAID! Afraid of what fire can do to them, you and your home.
Here are some news stories:
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0804/168807.html
http://www.freelists.org/archives/cifnmedia/04-2004/msg00027.html
http://www.14wfie.com/Global/story.asp?S=2320405&nav=3w6oR4vb
Speaking to a firefighter may help, but at that age they probably need the visual to go with it. She needs to SEE the devastation a fire can cause, not just hear about it.
I agree with John though. At that age, they experiment with all kinds of things including playing with fire. I think i even did that once or twice. Why? I have no idea !
fyi on the drug use. You can make a pipe out of a toilet paper roll and tin foil. Get her in counseling.
I really wouldn't punish her on this or come down really hard. Fire is a really dangerous secret to keep and an easy obsession to fuel. Come down hard and she may stop but if she doesn't, you just won't know about it next time. She does need to know that how she was playing with it was dangerous and that you're upset and dissapointed that she would do that but I would just say that, no big speech or anything.
And then, give her some safe ways to explore it. Fire IS really neat. If you have a fireplace let her poke around a bit with you there to guide her in keeping it safe. There are logs you can buy with chemicals in them that create really colourful fires. Heck, I've even seen just little packs of the chemicals at a local dollar store. That might lead to some interest in chemistry. Buy some sparklers and light them. If you can afford it, hardware stores carry little porch stoves (chimeras I think they're called) and they're a great thing to light up and sit around on a cool night. Fire can be about family warmth and sharing, not simply danger...maybe she could help research the safety considerations of a purchase like that. I think taking her to a local fire station is a neat idea too, not to scare her away but to make her aware of safety considerations. Be open to sitting with her in the back yard and lighting some small fires. If this is just an interest in fire you can help guide her through it and be there to supervise. If it's something more serious you'll be there and involved and open anyway.
I think kids and fire are a dangerous mix because we often don't help them learn how to safely handle it. You've got a great opportunity to do just that.
Yeats said that education was not the filling of a bucket but the lighting of a fire. You've certainly got an opportunity to put a new twist on that! 
Sorry Unschoolmom, but I'm gonna have to strongly disagree on this one. It has been a long established fact that children who start fires/burn things usually end up in a cycle of self-destructive behavior. Firestarting and animal abuse also frequently go hand in hand as well. I had not even made the drug connection, but if a 12 y/o is experimenting with cigarettes then that is a very likely thing as well. Here are a couple of the many articles I found about children who play with fire. Juveniles who play with fire in particular are strongly urged to seek counseling.
http://www.burnsurvivorsttw.org/articles/matches.html
http://www.walthamfire.com/kids/tips/child-set-fires.html
And from a website on how to detect substance abuse (http://www.sacsconsulting.com/book/chapter5.htm):
"Pipes of Any Type
Pipes come in many shapes and sizes. They may be wooden, glass, metal or a combination. A pipe can be as simple as an ordinary soda pop can. The can will be dented with holes punched in the dented area; it may have burnt residue in the dented area. A plain toilet paper roll, wrapped in aluminum foil, can become a pipe. An antenna from a car or TV may also be used as a pipe.
Some pipes are made into different shapes or colors and marketed as a novelty. They may be made into key chains. Many substance abusers state that the only reason they have pipes is for show and uniqueness. In the majority of cases, though, this is not true. These pipes--wooden, glass, metal, etc.--have only one purpose: to be used for heating and subsequent inhaling of substances such as marijuana or crack cocaine."
Let me just add too, I smoked in college but never did drugs. I did have friends with pipes and we did use them on regular cigs. It gives a more powerful punch that way. Just a thought, it may be all about burning things, it may be about smoking, it may be about drugs, but it is definetly about needing some stong parenting before things get bad.
I think that a punishment/big speech/something should definitely be considered.
1. She is putting your entire family and everything that you all have at risk everytime she plays in the house with fire.
2. She is leaving a lighter in the bathroom hidden with cotton balls where her younger siblings could find it and hurt themselves, the family and your home.
It could just be a kids natural fascination with fire. It could be drug use or destructive behavior. Regardless, you really need to at least get to the reason for this behavior. This is not something that I would take lightly.
If I was her age I would burn some toilet paper or paper. Not a toilet paper roll. Why not a toilet paper roll. Don't know why not....
I have to admit to playing with fire as a don't remember how old I was.... ( I was also very self destructive as a teen)
I don't think 12 year olds play with experimentation fire. Think it is younger...
So I would think it was drugs. Maybe not though.
If she smells the burnt rolls maybe she can smell something like drugs. (Something sweet?) or not?
Or can she see something on the rolls? Or was there aluminin mixed in with the rolls?
Pamt - I wasn't sure my advice fit but I just thought I'd throw it out anyway. She got a lot of good advice about more serious possibilities so I thought I'd write what I did on the off chance it was more the case. Thanks for posting the links, I'm off to read up some more!
I'm still more inclined to think of drug use/abuse. 12 is NOT too young, in fact, it seems to be *just the right age* for many kids. I've seen it, first hand.
I agree w/Karen, especially if she's already smoking cigarettes.
I figured when I found all that stuff it was done to cover up the smell of smoke....this doesn't make sense to me, but then again, I'm not 12. Wouldn't you think you'd get in trouble more for setting stuff on fire than for smoking??? i dunno. DH is very passive and takes "the path of least resistance" when it comes to the 12 and 13 year olds. He doesn't enforce any of the "punishments" I lay down. (I grounded them from the computer last week because they didn't get a lot of their chores done the week before....if you don't have time for that how do you have time for the computer??) I later found out that DH let them go on when I wasn't home. And you wonder why they don't listen to me!! (That's a whole other post in itself!!)
Anyway, I think he's doing NOTHING about this. NOTHING AT ALL!! It astounds me! among other things. I think I'm going to try and find pictures and stuff on setting fires and just leave them around for her to pick up at any given time. I don't know what else to do. I know it has to be the smoking thing cuz I found 1/2 a ciggerette sitting on the table by the door they go out of in the morning. I think she forgot it. (She has to stay after school today....football game...she's a cheerleader) I know I didn't put it there! DH is still in bed (must be nice) and the oldest daughter wouldn't have left it there either. I don't know what else to do other than to provide them (DD and DH) with the fire safety information.
Wish me luck!
I think that it could be drugs or the sign of a serious conduct disorder. I would really take this one seriously!
I do wish you lots of luck, but imho (for what it's worth--take it or leave it) something needs to be done about this. The issue needs to be addressed by either you or her dad and like stated before some sort of counsiling. Please don't take any offense--that's not what I'm intending. I'm concerned for you, your dd and all of your safety. Please be careful. {{{{{Beth}}}}}
I agree with Cat. Something needs to be done about this. If your dh won't stand up and be the parent, that leaves it to you. Something more than just leaving pictures laying around and hoping something sinks in. I think your headed down a very bad road and you had better put the brakes on now! Good Luck!
Sounds to me like you and DH need to figure out who is the parent and who are the children. I mean if he does no parenting and you do it all they will never listen and you will be in for a ton of trouble and by the sounds of it it could cost you your home and posibly the lives of you family. If he is not even looking at this as a problem than your DD is not the only one who needs counseling.
If my parents ever caught me with fire when i was that age they would have burnt my hand or taken a few of my prize possissions and burnt them toi a crisp to show me how much it hurt and what it could cause and what could be lost.
Not really something I would just throw pictures around about and hope the message sinks in about. Do you really want to chance losing your entire family on a I hope it sinks in notion!!
Good luck!!
First things first she would not be cheerleading at all. In fact she would not be doing much of anything other than going to school. Doors would be left open, if she can't be trusted to heck with her privacy. She is putting your entire family in danger. She would be grounded from everything! Where is she getting the cigarettes? If you are smokers you need to make sure your cigarettes & butts are put where she can't get them. Here in my town it is against the law to provide cigarettes to anyone under the age of 18 & against the law for them to smoke. It starts out with smoking & ends with drinking, drugs, & an unplanned pregnancy. Get her into therapy & your dh into parenting classes.
Ditto Emily!! I would yank her butt off the cheerleading squad so fast her head would spin. And I agree with the keeping cigarettes away if you or DH smoke (and trying to stop yourselves b/c that is modelled behavior that she is seeing everyday) and go to counseling. A passive approach is not going to solve this and if DH won't parent, then you'll have to be the bad guy. This is serious and could result in loss of life or property if not dealt with firmly and quickly.
Another thing about cheerleading and smoking--every school I've ever heard of bans you from sports if you're caught smoking, either on the first offense, or the second. If she's smoking, you could talk to the school about it and end her cheerleading until she gets her act together. Not only is she setting a bad example for others (who undoubtedly know she smokes), but she could seriously hurt herself by smoking and doing such an active sport as cheerleading.
Smoking causes:
"Reduced athletic performance. People who smoke usually can't compete with nonsmoking peers because the physical effects of smoking - like rapid heartbeat, decreased circulation, and shortness of breath - impair sports performance."
"Greater risk of injury and slower healing time. Smoking affects the body's ability to produce collagen, so common sports injuries, such as damage to tendons and ligaments, will heal more slowly in smokers than nonsmokers."
Yes, definitely, no smoking or drinking or even being at a party and not participating in smoking or drinking can still get you in trouble. Parents and kids have to sign a paper about this. Also have to keep grades up.
Found copy of the athletic code:
Athletic Code Page
EXHIBIT B
SHEBOYGAN AREA SCHOOL DISTRICT
STUDENT ACTIVITIES AGREEMENT
As a high school student within the Sheboygan Area School District (SASD), I understand that participation in any co-curricular activity within the SASD is both an honor and a privilege, which carries with it certain Expectations and Responsibilities.
I understand that in order to participate in any student activity within the SASD, I will be held accountable to a greater standard than that of the general school population with regard to ACADEMICS, ATTENDANCE and CONDUCT, as outlined in the Student Activities Handbook.
I further understand that this Student Activities Handbook establishes FORMAL policies and guidelines which I must follow if I wish to participate in certain student activities (Exhibit 6145.2 - CATEGORY A) and that by signing this AGREEMENT I realize I am bound by the guidelines and policies contained therein as a Condition of Participation.
Because I will be representing my school as well as the SASD, I WILL:
• Maintain my grades.
• Comply with all policies established in the Student Activities Handbook.
• Abide by the established Attendance policy.
I WILL NOT:
• Possess, transport, consume, use, provide or sell alcoholic or malt beverages; unauthorized drugs, inhalants or controlled substances; or tobacco products.
• Knowingly attend, harbor or otherwise host an event where alcoholic beverages are being consumed by persons not of legal age or where illegal drugs are present.
• Engage, commit or participate in acts of willful, persistent disruptive behavior; vandalism; theft; criminal activities; misconduct or similar acts.
I recognize the consequence of failing to adhere to these general guidelines will affect my eligibility and /or ability to participate in co-curricular activities as outlined in the Student Activities Handbook.
In addition, I will abide by any additional team or activity rules, as specified by each coach or advisor within the scope of his/her philosophy and objectives. (Such team and activity rules will be submitted in writing, and updated as needed and approved by the activities director and/or school administration prior to the beginning of such activity.)
I accept the responsibility to match the privilege of participating, with an equal measure of responsible personal behavior. By signing this AGREEMENT. I acknowledge that the written statements above are the same as if I had made such pledge verbally under oath and that I will abide by and be bound by this AGREEMENT CONTINUOUSLY until I am no longer a student within the SASD.
__________________________________ _________________________________ _____________
Student Name (please print) Student's Signature Date
I understand and agree to cooperate in administering this Agreement. I further agree that my son/daughter must abide by the policies briefly stated above as well as those stated in the Student Activities Handbook. I hereby grant permission for my son/daughter to participate in such student activities under such conditions. I understand that by signing this Agreement, I accept the responsibilities and the consequences for all violations as stated within, as a condition for participation by my son/daughter in all student activities within the SASD.
_______________________________________ ____________________________________
Parent/Guardian Signature Date
EXHIBIT C
ELIGIBILITY
Students are eligible to participate in interscholastic sports and other co-curricular activities provided they meet the academic standards of the Sheboygan Area School District (SASD), conform to school attendance regulations, follow the regulations of the WIAA as outlined in the Student Co-curricular Handbook and the official WIAA Manual, and comply with the policies and regulations of the SASD on file in the school and central offices.
Physical Examination Card: All students participating in interscholastic sports shall file a physical examination card properly signed by the parents and physician before taking part in tryouts or practices in an activity.
Insurance Waiver Form: As the school district does not furnish insurance coverage, all students participating in interscholastic sports, cheerleading or pompon squads, shall file an Insurance Waiver Form properly completed and signed before taking part in tryouts or practices in that activity. This form once properly signed and filed in the school office is valid for one school year.
Handbook Awareness Form: This Form must also be properly signed by the students and parents. Both a parent or guardian and student are required to attend an informational meeting with the Activity Director prior to the start of a season.
Participation Fee: See Policy 3252
Fair Notice: Any changes made in the Student Co-curricular Handbook from one school year to the next will be communicated to the parents and student participants. Written notice will be mailed to the participants home, included in the registration packet for all students, and be published in the Sheboygan Press and school newsletters. The changes go into effect after notification, about the first week in August.
Incarcerated Student: A student who is released from incarceration to attend school may not participate in co-curricular activities as identified in Exhibit 6145.2.
(A kid who was in trouble for having a gun, was convicted and had a short jail-term, then was released from jail and still allowed to play football. That's how the last rule came about.)
This is a toughie, I think you have been given a lot of good advice. Good Luck!
Just so you know. My friends sister burnt down their house when they were little.
They never recovered from the fire. All the kids were really messed up. This was a big family too of 8 or more kids...
((eightkids))
Wow that's pretty serious. I would definitly seek help soon. Good Luck!
Can you imagine if you grounded her and if she asked why, you said, "I don't know"...and acted like it's no big deal and why is she bothering YOU about it? I would ground her until she tells you the real reason and then maybe ground her some more...it's too weird that she did that and ultimately TOO DANGEROUS. It's very selfish of her to think that it's no big deal. End of story...she knows she did something wrong. And, about the computer...just take the keyboard with you to work or something. If your hubby lets them on the computer, then it's obvious he doesn't need it at that time either. Put your foot down and tell them to get over it. End of story. No explanation beyond one time is needed.
I was at a point once like this with my stepdaughter. She was living with us sneaking smokes in her bed room until one day she threw a butt in the garbage can in her bedroom and it started a small fire in the can. Lied forever saying it wasn't her...she was the only one up stairs.
We put our foot down and hard.
She was probably 13 at the time.
You have been given lots of great advice here...
Best of luck
((((eightkids))))
How is it going this week?
Things have been okay THIS week. I think DH and I agreed on contacting the fire department and having her go talk to them (or should I say DH and I have agreed that I should contact the fire department) I just haven't gotton a hold of anyone yet. I usually see some of the people from the fire department while I'm at work. (I work in a little convenience store about a 1/4 of a mile down the road from the fire house) I think I'm going to see if I can run her up there sometime on Thursday since that's my next day off. It's hard to work this stuff around everyone's schedule!!! Why didn't anyone warn me that parenting was NOT an easy job!
I put in a request for Parenting for Dummies when my dd was an infant and I'm still waiting for it. LOL It still hasn't come. I'm glad that you are going to have the fire dept. speak with her. They can really drive a point home, regarding the consequences of playing with fire.
I just wanted to add that I have always been fascinated with fire. And when I was about 12 years old, I would sneak a lighter upstairs and burn little things. Nope, I wasn't smoking, nope, I wasn't doing drugs, nope, I wasn't planning on arseny. I was just very curious about it and thought it was so neat.
At that age, you are past the "kiddy" age, so you feel you have it all under control, and what you are doing is not dangerous. You realize that a "kid" should not being doing that because they aren't big enough to keep control of it, and it could be dangerous.
I didn't stop doing it until burnt my hand pretty seriously. That taught me that I didn't always have complete control over it.
Yes, what I did was totally wrong, and I got in huge trouble when my parents found out. But it was all very innocent in my case.
I realize that with some kids, it isn't all innocent, but you know your own child and if she is doing this as tendencies towards something much bigger, or not.
Now, my daughter who is eight has the same fascination. But she has never tried lighting anything. She tried once to play with a candle, and we caught her, lectured her on the dangers, and she never did it again. She still loves to throw things in bonfires outside to watch it burn. But I have no worries, besides the very natural "be careful not to play close to the fire in case you fall." She's a good kid, and I know that her curiosity with fire is not leading to a life of crime.
This can be very normal behavior. But it does need to be stopped. The whole "I'm old enough to control this and keep us safe" thing is what makes it more dangerous.
Good luck!
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