Vaccinating Children??? Is it good???
Moms View Message Board: Parenting Discussion: Archive January-June 2004:
Vaccinating Children??? Is it good???
I came upon this story and it scared the you know what outta me after reading it. I'm scared about Kaitlyns vaccines and wish I had "top secret" info re: vaccines.....
CDC Knew of Potential Link between Vaccines, Autism
Five-year-old Ryan Anderson of Jacksonville Beach is an animated, happy child.But that wasn't always the case."His course of deterioration from a happy, developmentally appropriate child to the problems he began to develop, started right after he received the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine," says Ryan's father, Bruce Anderson. Now, several therapies are underway to restore Ryan's cognitive and behavioral development, which began to show significant impairment at age 18 months. Ryan also presents evidence of a persistent, active measles virus.Ryan's doctor, Jeff Bradstreet of Melbourne, is a specialist in autism-related disorders. Using clinical diagnostic testing, he has documented a genetic defect in children that Ryan carries. That defect, says Bradstreet, made him vulnerable to a preservative in his vaccinations. The preservative is called thimerosal, and it contains mercury, a known neuro-toxin. Until just a few years ago, children who received a full schedule of vaccinations were injected with mercury in amounts far exceeding EPA guidelines. Bradstreet says some children's bodies just can't handle the onslaught of the toxin."There are children who don't detox heavy metals well.. the more mercury we expose them to the more problems they're going to have," Bradstreet says.The growing controversy over thimerosal has contributed to its removal from many childhood vaccines, beginning in the late 1990's. But it is still present in some vaccinations, including virtually all flu shots.The Centers for Disease Control published a study last fall repudiating any possible link between thimerosal and developmental problems like autism in children. However, First Coast News has obtained non-published documents that show the CDC DID have data supporting such a link-- but kept it from the public.Documents released through the Freedom of Information Act, detail the transcript of a meeting held in June of 2000 between members of the CDC, the FDA, and representatives from the vaccine industry.The group discusses the results of a February 2000 study that finds a significant association between exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines, and developmental issues like autism in children.Some of the comments--"There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest we've got a serious problem.""My gut feeling? It worries me. I don't want my grandson to get a thimerosal-containing vaccine until we know better what's going on.""We are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits."Finally--"We have asked you to keep this information confidential."And that's what happened. Three years later, the CDC published a study in the November 2003 issue of "Pediatrics" contradicting the earlier results, and clearing thimerosal of any link to neurological problems in children."I just feel pretty strongly they haven't been honest in analyzing the problem."So says Florida Congressman David Weldon, a physician. Weldon sent a letter to the head of the CDC in October of 2003, charging that data was selectively used in the "Pediatrics" study to make the earlier evidence of a mercury-autism connection disappear. He also asked for another review of the data. The CDC has not yet officially responded to Weldon's request."Where there's smoke there's fire.. and when you see people reluctant to investigate things properly, it makes you think they really don't want to investigate things properly," he says.Meantime, parents like Bruce Anderson say, while they are not anti-vaccine, they do want doctors to screen children more carefully before administering shots, taking into account the specialized health concerns of each individual child. Anderson also says it's imperative the government recall any vaccines still containing thimerosal."I have to live with the memory of my child's cries as I held him down while he was being vaccinated, never knowing that I was injuring him."Bradstreet adds, "This is a very potent neurotoxin. Let's do everything we can to reduce exposure, not justify why it's OK to give just a little."Bradstreet, along with Congressman Weldon and other experts on the issue, reiterated their statements on thimerosal in Washington on February 9th. The occasion was an Institute of Medicine panel hearing information both supporting and rejecting the theory that thimerosal is linked to rising autism rates in children.A spokesman for the CDC tells First Coast News that the agency plans to undertake an objective review of the data presented at the IOM panel. Weldon has already expressed strong skepticism with the CDC's position however, telling First Coast News, "I don't believe the CDC can really take an objective position on the issue. They are concerned the fears about thimerosal might lead to parents being afraid to vaccinate their children. But the problem isn't vaccines, it's the thimerosal in vaccines. So parents who are concerned about this need to talk with their pediatrician, and carefully check the product insert in each vaccination to make sure the shot is thimerosal-free."
Anyone have any input? What do you think?
Well, it's a hot topic. I'm anti vaccine, myself, and the article is wrong when it says it's NOT the VACCINE that is a problem, it's the thimersosal. It's BOTH. This particular topic of MMR vaccine linked to autism is a common one and I definitely believe it does render perfectly healthy kids autistic. If you do a search for this topic you'll find quite a bit as it has been discussed before. If you're uncomfortable with this info, stop vaccinating her until you can make an informed decision that you can live with. YOU are the parent and YOU make the decisions regarding your daughter. So who cares if she's due for some shot, don't give it to her until you've done your research and can make a comfortable decision. (I hate to tell you this, but you'll never feel TRULY informed and you'll never feel TRULY comfortable with whichever decision you make) Kudos to you for taking this seriously.
When my oldest DS was born they gave him his first shot in the hospital, I wasn't prepared for this because I understood they got the first one at the doctors office. When I started researching it I realized it did contain Mercury...I was horrified. Then he got his next round which included the polio, I was asked if I wanted oral or an injection. When I asked what the difference was the doctor told me the oral was live, I asked if you run a risk of getting it from the live....the doctor said no, no risk at all. So I gave him the live....later to find out there is a risk for him and others who have not been vaccinated (they no longer give the live).
I learned you never go without researching it first. If you feel uncomfortable decline them until you think and research it through. My neighbor does not vaccinate her children. I decided to go ahead after a lot of soul searching, I felt if they did get sick with something I could have had them vaccinated for I would never be able to forgive myself. It is a personal choice each parent must make, I admire any parent who takes the time to think about it and make an informed decision no matter what they decide.
Do you really want to get me started? My son was diagnosed with autism in June of 2002. Surprise, surprise, he was nearly hospitalized after his shots at both 2 months and 6 months. He had unexplained high fevers(105 and 106), became dehydrated and had a stiff nick usually associated with meningitis. Seth is doing wonderfully after 2 years of therapy but I haven't given my younger daughter any of her shots. Some studies say that the vaccinations are safe after the age of three but I don't know if we ever will. I found it especially surprising that President Bush signed a law slipped in with a Homeland Security(!) Bill that the government and the vaccine manufacturers couldn't be held financially responsible if thimerosal is found to be linked to autism. If there isn't any chance of this, why would he be worried about being held responsible? Luckily, we live in the best place if your child has autism. The state and regional centers pay for all of his care and schooling but people come from all of the country to get the services provided here and we may never be able to move out of the area. Some people think that the schools require shots before enrollment. This is not true. A waiver can be signed that says you choose not to vaccinate due to personal reasons. After my son's autism was discovered, my dh and I started to look at our family history and realized that he had been tested for autism as a child, my aunt was diagnosed with Aspergers' and his uncle has Down syndrome. We both have IQ's over 150 and both have family histories of bipolar disorder and depression. All of these are risk factors, or common links to autism. As yet, there is no conclusive idea what causes autism but the popular theory right now is a combination of genes that make someone predisposed to it and then a trigger in the environment. I firmly believe that our genetic history predisposed him and the shot, or the thimerosal in the shot, was the cause of it. Sorry for the long post but this is obviously a hot topic for me.
Here is a link to an article in the Sydney (Australia) Journal, and I quote the first two paragraphs.
Link: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/22/1077384637563.html?from=storyrhs
Journal repents over vaccine-autism link
February 23, 2004
One of the world's pre-eminent medical journals, the British magazine The Lancet, has said that it should never have published a 1998 study into controversial research linking a triple vaccine for infants to autism due to the researcher's "fatal conflict of interest".
The journal's editor said at the weekend that the British physician who conducted a controversial study linking the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine to autism should have revealed that he was gathering information for a lawyer representing parents who believed that their children had been harmed by the vaccine.
Now, my comments:
There are many problems with not getting children vaccinated. The first, of course, is that the unvaccinated child is at risk for diseases which can cause serious permanent damage - and did, to thousands and thousands of children before vaccines. And these diseases are sometimes fatal. The second problem is that unvaccinated children create risk pools for infection and other children who may have been vaccinated but are somewhat fragile are at risk because even though they were vaccinated, their systems can be vulnerable.
If you decide not to have your child vaccinated, that is your decision. But please, make it a truly informed decision - don't base it on emails or websites which are promoting a particular point of view (and are often promoting products or treatments).
I have an autistic son - he has Aspergers, fortuntely a mild version of it. He was in special ed until 10th grade, and I remember living in fear until my pediatrician told me that my second child, then 18 months old, showed no signs of any learning disability. So I understand this fear very well. Still, if I am ever blessed with grandchildren, I hope they are vaccinated.
Boxzgrl, where did you come upon this story? If you are going to quote an article, it would be really helpful if you would also post the source - the publication, website, or whatever. There is no way to evaluate information that is cited without a source.
Ginny, it was actually an email my Grandma sent me. I emailed her back asking where she got it from so i'll let you know as soon as she responds.
For the meantime, I do feel more comfortable vaccinating Kaitlyn because of all the deadly diseases out there. I'm not going to jump to any conclusions, this article simply made me want to read up on more of this info. I guess if I look at it in another point of view, I'd rather vaccinate her with the risk of autism or others problems rather than exposing her to diseases that can and probably would kill her.
I know each person makes their decision based on their own beliefs and I certainly dont criticize any choices made. This really can be a tough subject. I'm gonna be quite busy researching this.......
I think Ginny makes a lot of sense. The best thing about articles like this is that it raises our awareness of potential problems and forces us to question our children's doctors and make informed decisions after doing a lot of research. We are fortunate to live in an age where it it expected that most children will survive childhood. This is due in great part to vaccines.
I didn't question the vaccines when my son was given the, but when it's time for my daughter, I will be asking for a list of ingredients and possible side effects and risks.
As far as the possible link between Thimerosol and Autism, does anyone know if there was Autism before vaccines? Or if there are children with Autism who were not vaccinated, but developed it anyway? I am curious to find out.
I know a woman that was anti vac. Her son came down with early symptoms of autisim when he was 2, unvaccinated. So in his case there was absolutly no link between the shot and his autisim. That said.. For every anti article you read there will be a pro one. And for every horor story there are children that stayed alive because of that very same shot. When something happens everyone rushes out to try to find a cause. And they blame everything under the sun for it. Autisim has been around for every, it is just now we know what to call it. Just like ADHD, ADD etc. Back before a name they just called the child hyper, fidgity, unfocused. So, Just because an article is written doesn't make it so. Research not only the con's look into the pro's too. then way them.. All my children have had their shots. In a way it is no different than when you give your child foods for the first time(many children are allergic to Peanut butter, Kool Aid, milk etc.), take them out of the house for the first time (expose them to outside, Tree's, flowers, outside molds,etc), change the things you clean and launder with. You are exposing them to a possible allergic reaction. And with some children those reactions can be deadly. But because you know the child has to eat, breath air out side of your home and live in a clean surroundings you take that chance, Correct? Some chances are worth taking. JMHO of course.
I don't know the stats. I do know that I work with one young man who first showed signs of autism after his MMR shot. I have worked with several children who began a life long journey with seizure disorders and sometimes very challenging needs after their DPT shots.
My kids did not get the DPT shot, but did get the MMR. I wasn't aware of the MMR/autism link at the time.
Is There a Link Between Autism and the MMR Vaccine?
WebMD:Vaccines and Autism
Public Health:Communicable Diseases and Epidemiology
I am not trying to convince anyone to not vaccinate their children. I wish I had known about this before I had chosen to give my son his shots. The only serious side effect that I was notified of was in a small pamphlet I was given at each visit and it says "an extremely small percentage of patients have had serious side effects related to the MMR vaccine." If I had realized the genetic risk factors that were already present for my child I wouldn't have chosen this for him. I would not choose for my child to die rather than have autism but I wouldn't choose to give my child this either. My younger child has a 2-6% chance of having autism and because of that I have chosen to do anything I can to keep her safe from this. This was a choice that my dh and I thought about long and hard because our pediatrician would not continue to see her if we chose not to immunize her. We love her and loved having all of our children at the same Dr. but this was more important to us. This was a choice that we made for our child but that, in no way, makes it right for anyone else.
Ame, more than likely there was autism before vaccinations, but it wasn't diagnosed until the '40's and '50's. Usually it was diagnosed as childhood schizophrenia. In many third world countries, where vaccinations aren't common, autism is also less common. I don't think that vaccines are the only cause of autism, but it could be one of them. It has become more commonly diagnosed as vaccines become more common. The last time that there was such a large jump in autism diagnoses was after the polio vaccine became common.Polio used to also have a high concentration of mercury. I hope I haven't offended anyone. I just wish that more people had this information before they made their dicision regarding immunizations.
I did some more research after my post above. I am posting two links to editorials in the Wall Street Journal about the alleged links between autism and the MMR vaccine
Http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004487
I am quoting a bit from this first editorial:\
"Perhaps the best evidence comes from Denmark, one of those European nations that likes to monitor most everything about its citizens. Researchers recently examined the health records of all children born in Denmark from 1971 to 2000 for autism diagnoses. Though Denmark eliminated thimerosal from its vaccines in 1992, the researchers found that the incidence of autism continued to increase. A second research team reviewed the records of nearly 500,000 Danes vaccinated for pertussis. They also found that the risk of autism and related disorders didn't differ between those vaccinated with thimerosal and those without."
The Journal also says in this first editorial:
"None of this is to deny that the incidence of autism may be rising, though there is a dispute about why. The definition of the disease has broadened in recent years, encompassing even mild learning disabilities, and doctors have become better at diagnosing it. Some statistics show that as autism diagnoses rise, those for mental retardation fall--suggesting children were previously misdiagnosed. Parents are also more keen to have a proper diagnosis, because many schools now offer more extensive educational services for autism than they do for other disorders. "
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004700
This second editorial describes the reactions the WSJ received to the first one.
Personally, I am inclined to doubt that autism is less prevalent in third world countries, or that it is less prevalent because they do less vaccinating. I think it is underdiagnosed, as it was in the US until the past 30 or so years.
One of the reasons autism was underdiagnosed in this country most likely is that children were diagnosed as retarded. I recently saw a piece on PBS about an institution where children were placed because that state was following the "eugenics" system, and children who didn't measure up to certain guidelines were labled idiots and institutionalized - some because their parents died or abandoned them and there was no one to take responsibility, some because a teacher made a "diagnosis" and the parents didn't know any better and believed it. Many hundreds of children were forgotten in that institution for over 30 years.
Another reason is that the milder forms of autism - such as my son's - didn't interfere with a person leading a reasonably productive life when our society was less oriented to technology and education. My cousin, for example, was a hydrocephalic baby and had brain damage. He was retarded - operating at about an 8 year old level. He was his father's right hand on their farm until they sold the farm, even to the point of driving the tractor. And it was OK, because he had enough capacity to do what was needed.
I would be interested in knowing if there is any research on autism in third world countries - I suspect there isn't much. Poor families in poor nations simply don't have the capacity to deal with and manage a child who cannot conform sufficiently to not be a problem or who cannot produce some work or income.
Tink, if you believe your child is at risk for autism then I think you are right to avoid any possible risk. You already know, all too well, what autism is, what it does to a child and to a family. I know there is a real risk in my family - not only my son but one of my brother's sons has a mild version of autism. I've made sure my sons are aware of this. Depression runs rampant in our family, and my youngest so is struggling with a depression that verges on the more formal diagnosis of "personality disorder". Through my oldest's special ed schools I got to know many parents whose children were truly and deeply autistic and some of them had to be institutionalized eventually. It is a deep tragedy.
On the other hand, my mother came down with polio about a month after Pearl Harbor. She was one of the lucky ones. After about 6 months in the hospital she was released with a full leg brace on her right leg and crutches and, after lots and lots of physical therapy and just plain stubbornness, she eventually was able to walk without brace or crutches, drive a car, and lead a mostly normal life. But the muscles in her right leg were atrophied - that leg was always really skinny and weak. Because her left side was the major weight bearing side she had multiple hip and knee and back problems, eventually having to have a prosthetic knee. Some of the friends she made in the hospital remained in wheelchairs for the rest of their lives. You can understand why I was one of the first in line with my son when the Salk Vaccine was offered in our community.
That's exactly the reason why we need to continue vaccinating children. But we also need to be very vocal in our demands that these vaccines be made to the highest safety standards. If there's even a hint that an replaceable ingredient could cause a problem, then why use that ingredient at all? The bottom line is money. It costs more to produce vaccines without Thimerisol. I think the more people who are aware of this issue and who demand Thimerisol free vaccines, the faster Thimerisol will dissappear. Will that cut dramatically the number of Autism cases diagnosed each year? Who knows?
Exactly how do you know if your child is at risk for Autism? Family history, genetic profile? I have a friend who has a child with an Autism spectrum developmental disorder. There is no family history of Autism. How could she have determined a risk factor for her child?
I guess this is all very interesting to me now that I'm expecting a baby and I need to think about what her vaccines may contain. None of this changes my decision to have her vaccinated, but I will check with her doctor to be sure that the vaccines are Thimerisol free - why take a chance?
Ame
Just an FYI - autism isn't the only problem that can come from vaccinations. The pertussis vaccine can cause severe issues, and they are physical and medical needs. Just something else to look at if your doing searches, in case you're only typing in MMR and autism.
Yes, autism existed before MMR, but it has increased dramatically, along with asthma and auto immune diseases, since the mass immunization program. What many people don't realize is that it wasn't until the eighties that more and more vaccines came onto the scene. *I* was only vaccinated with smallpox and polio, and possibly DTP....not sure about that one. Grandmothers today are SHOCKED at what these babies get all....measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis, diptheria, tetanus, prevnar for some pneumoccocal thingy, hep B (for drug users, sex addicts, and health care workers; how many of your babies engage in those activities???), polio (which was GONE except for the cases caught thru the live vaccines), chicken pox, and I can't even remember the rest. I know there are more. At any rate, Marcia is right, autism and MMR aren't the only vaccine related problems, and she's also right in that the pertussis vaccine is especially dangerous.
Hit post button in error, following post has the same information but expanded. Apologies.
My sons were born 61, 66 and 67, and all got DPT (Diptheria, Pertussis and Tetanus), MMR, polio vaccine.
As for polio being gone - no, it isn't. There are still fairly substantial pockets of polio in the third world, particularly Africa and especially Nigeria (as of 2003), and it only takes a few travelers to bring it here.
The chemicals used to treat our food, pollution and many other factors have also increased the up rising of many conditions. So who is to say those factors aren't involved in the up rising of Autism? Or the fact that many people up until the 80's kept conditions such as Autism a family secret.
The links that I posted above say that it has been proven that Autism is evident in baby's prior to birth, in utro. It also says that the symptoms generally aren't noticed until the child shows lack to thriving 18 to 20 months same time as the shot is given. But because they do not do mandatory brain skans on our children at birth we have no clue as to what goes on with their brains until they become symptomatic. Autism just as with many other childhood disease is a degenerative disease. The child starts out "normal" and gradually becomes ill to the point of seeking medical diagnosis. In most cases it isn't noticed until the child is fully symptomatic. Autism also is a blanket term just like with ADHD and ADD. There are many different levels of Autism. It symptoms come on at different ages and at different levels.
And Ginny I agree 100%. With all the travel that happens in and out of the states, if we did away with the immunization for things we no longer have in the states it would only be a matter of time before we had a major out break. The conditions that we immunize against will kill or damage our children those are facts. History shows that Polio damaged and wiped out whole villages of children. If you doubt that the diseases will come here, look at HIV. HIV is not an American born illness but it sure has taken a lot of our citizens and many more are ill with it and many more will be.
Thanks ladies for all your information, experience and advice. From my recent reading and the posts here I understand more and my decision is to continue with DDs vaccines. You all give very great advice of both the pros and cons!
I agree with Chrissy. This is not an easy decision but what "if" our babies did come down with one of these terrible possible life threatening diseases. You have to weigh the pro's and the con's. Still, what ever the decision, either way, it's not comforting!
Unfortunately, NOTHING about parenting is comforting. From the moment we find out we are pregnant to the day we pass away everything we do or don't do can and will effect our children in some way.. We have to do the best we can and that is all we can do... Being a parent is very hard. We make life changing choices in the lives of our children every day from putting them on the bus or in the car in the morning to putting them to bed at night. How many kids die in car accidents, house fires, toy malfunctions, etc a day? I bet it out weighs the numbers of cases of Autism by far but we don't put our children in a bubble. We do what we have the ability to do and live by faith....
I believe there was a huge debate about this a while back. You might find some more info if you check the archives. It was either on the parenting board or the debate board.
http://www.momsview.com/discus/messages/41/16940.html
found it.
I was expecting my dd to get her Hep-B shot in the hospital, the let me know and sign for that b4 she was born, I did not however know that when she was 2 months they were going to give her 5 vaccinations in three different shots in the same day! I didn't know untill they had me sign for them. She's 9 months now and hasn't had her vaccinations for 4 or 6 months, I'll have her caught up when she's a year, and only two at a time, over however long it takes. I will not have her MMR done untill right before she goes into school. My aunt specializes in Autism, and I've seen all levels of severity with this disorder. There is no way I will subject my daughter to this, and really I would like to not have to give her vaccinations at all, but I will to keep her healthy.
My doc is originally from Ireland. She told me that they don't give the shots as early as we do, because their bodies aren't ready yet. It's not much later, but at least a month or 2. She believes it's better that way. She never pushed me about not wanting them to have the pertussis shot. She told me that it could be dangerous if they got whooping cough, but didn't force me into anything.
This surfaces occassionally here over the past two years that I've been reading and posting. It always boils down to the same thing which is personal choice.
Yes, something could happen to your child if you give them all of their vaccinations as recommended by the Board of Pediatrics.
However, something could also happen to your child if you don't give them all of their vaccinations as recommended by the Board of Pediatrics.
I gave Timmy all of his shots as recommended by our pediatrician. He's fine and will be two years old next month. As far as giving them multiple shots in one visit, I would much rather have them given when they are younger than to have to physically hold them down as they get older. BTDT in a doctor's office and it is no fun for the nurse/parent/or child.
and then this came out today
http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/05/18/vaccines.autism.ap/index.html
But they don't say whether get the mercury could worsen autism. Some people think autistic people can get better if allergins or toxins are eliminated or decreased as much as possible.
This will be my final post in this discussion (I promise). Here is a link to a report from the Institute of Medicine of the Nationial Academies, Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism. http://www.iom.edu/report.asp?id=20155
Here is also a link to the Netscape News article summarizing the report. http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=50200&id=2004051815050001352497
The article says, in part: Thimerosal has been used as a pharmaceutical preservative since the 1930s. Although the amount of mercury it contains is very small, public health officials ordered manufacturers in 1999 to phase thimerosal out of common vaccines, from hepatitis to diphtheria, as a precaution. They said small infants now have so many immunizations that the cumulative effect might be to give them too much of the chemical. Today, with the exception of some, but not all, flu vaccines, none of the vaccines used to protect U.S. preschoolers against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal, the government says.
I have an understanding of how vaccines work from working at a vet and i'm not sure if its different from animals than humans but I thought i'd let you know:
When animals get a round of vaccines it usually consists of 5 shots (DHLPP, Bordetella, Rabies, Lyme, Corona and in some areas Giardia). Dr's prefer doing them all at once because each time you get a vaccine it brings down your immunity for a short period of time, no matter if you get 1 or 5. So they figure do it all at once and you dont have to constantly worry about a low immune system. I dont know how it is for humans but thats how I look at it for Kaitlyn. Besides the fact that its never a fun thing to do so why have it done more often than needed?
I know this was a bit off subject but I just had to add that. I dont know if it will help since it has to do with animals anyways.
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