Love and Logic Question
Moms View Message Board: Parenting Discussion: Archive July-December 2003:
Love and Logic Question
Okay Melanie, Eve, and any other L&L people, I have a question. Shouldn't your child ever see that YOU can be hurt or get angry? Is it good to always sing and smile when your child does something wrong? Do they wonder why OTHER people aren't smiling and singing to them when they do something wrong at school or a friend's house, etc? I know very little about this method except for what you two have posted, but I just keep wondering about sheltering your child from realizing that mommies and daddies and other people can be HURT by their actions or ANGRY. Just wondering! Thanks!
It's not all singing. LOL When you sing the "uh-oh" song, it makes it more difficult for the parent to seem really, really angry and out of control. Because there are times when you want to jump out the window! Like when my DD wrote on the wall or something like that. It just lets your child know that you can discipline without getting really angry! And YES,it's OK to say "Mommy is really angry with you right now. I need a minute!" It's more about how to change a behavioral issue. What I love, I stay more focused on the issue at hand, or the behavioral problem, instead of acting out of anger. Sure people get angry, and DD sees that at times, but I don't want to ever act out in anger. Nothing good ever comes of it. That's what I love.
I am not bothered if anyone doesn't agree with me. I'm not yelling at DD all day. I'm not spanking or slapping or making her feel bad. I am empowering her to make choices on her own. I am teaching her to be a better parent to her kids someday. I am teaching her that I can handle things. I love her enough to set some limits.
Do I have bad days? Sure. Do I get angry? Sure. This technique just helps me feel more in control of myself. I feel that I am a better parent. So, do I think it's good to always sing and smile? Sure do. Much better than to live with yelling and frowning all day.
We talk about being "sweet" and she knows what she is doing. Kids are so smart!! I'm hopefully giving her some skills to be a teenager who will make some good choices. Not a teenager that is rebelling the first chance she gets.
If DD does something wrong with someone else, then she has to live with the consequences of her actions. If someone yells at her that will be a bummer for her. I'll feel really bad for her, but she made her choice. So, it's the real world! I don't keep her in a bubble singing. The singing is for ME!
So, if this is not for you, then that's ok. I am not on comission. I get nothing from telling you what works for me. I'm just happy to have found something that made my DH and I take a step back when... it WORKED!! I would buy a book or check their Website. Please don't make an assumption based on what I say! I am not an expert. I would NEVER tell anyone how to parent.
Eve,
Are there any books for parents with older children in the Love and Logic series? just curious. 
It's not sheltering them at all. It's simply not possible to be cheery ALL the time! LOL! As Eve pointed out, it's a method to help Mom/Dad keep her/his cool. I've read one of the books and have to admit, it's a hard philosophy to get used to. I've tried a few of their techniques and have had some success, but am having difficulty falling into it. It takes work and doesn't come naturally until you get a real good feel for it. As with any parenting approach you may not agree with all of their recommendations. Pick and choose, experiment and go with it. In my case, and I'll spare the details, but putting DD in her room is NOT a good idea. Still working on that one! I second Truestori, which books have you found most helpful?
"Parenting With Love and Logic, Teaching Children Responsibility." by Foster Cline,M.D. & Jim Fay
This book is the main book for older kids with school, bedtime, chores, spanking, lying, and you name it. Their Website www.loveandlogic.com has MANY, MANY books and lots of information.
My favorites are the tapes. I need to order more! When you hear these guys talk. You just think "Gosh! I do that! This makes so much sense!" Also, VERY motivational for ME.
Trina, you are so right, pick and choose what works for you.
Oh dear, Eve! I wasn't trying to attack you at all!!! I was truly wondering how that worked! See, Sydney is young...I, myself, have a daughter who turned 3 last week, so I have a good idea of where Miss Sydney is right now since she's just a few months younger than my daughter. And my new three year old isn't mean or manipulative or anything, she's quite innocent. So I could totally see 'singing' to her and I'm very rarely ever hurt by her or angry with her. BUT, I also have a 7 1/2 year old....and unfortunately she CAN and DOES sometimes hurt or anger me intentionally. And I think she should see that consequence. See, if kids never SEE that you're upset, then what makes them learn to choose wisely to NOT upset those they love? Just SAYING you're angry, or hurt, but not ACTING like it is confusing, I think. How do they ever figure out what anger or hurt feelings are? Know what I'm saying?
I do NOT spank and I try very hard not to yell and mostly I succeed. (and I ALWAYS succeed in not yelling at my 3 year old, because like I said, she's just not at that stage yet where she does things on purpose) I just don't want you thinking I spend my day yelling and spanking, LOL!
I will check out the website, but I preferred to start here with real people who could respond to me, so thanks!
My kids are all older. I read the website, including lots of the articles. When I read them, which was some time late last winter, Nicole, then almost 10, was at her worst as far as behaviour is concerned. She was flipping out all the time, and had started throwing things at me. I wasn't handling it well, because she had me worn out. After I read the articles, I looked at her and said "I'd be happy to talk to you when you're as calm as I am", and I walked away. She stopped in her tracks. From then on, whenever I said it, she quickly stopped and told me she was calm. Then we could talk.
I am happy by nature, but I sure don't walk around singing and acting sweetsie all the time. Yes, I yell. I don't think I could do the L&L thing when I have a house full of kids going bonkers. One to one it's ok, and it does seem to work well for Nicole.
Kate, I'm not offended at all. I just really wanted to stress that if you don't think this sounds right for you, then it may not be for you. This is not the only way to parent. It's just what I've found really helpful. I don't think you think are spanking and yelling all day, and I am also not happy and singing all day. I think when I say the "Uh-Oh song," it's not quite what you may think. I just sort of say it in a higher tone of voice in a little rythym. Instead of "UH-OOOHHH!!" Does that make sense? There is no other singing or anything. LOL! It just helps the parent to stay calm and gives the child a cue that what they are doing is wrong.
BTW-Awesome that your 3 year old doesn't give you any trouble. Mine gives me a run for my money. She knows exactly how to get under my skin. She does do things intentionally sometimes. So, I really, really needed something when she was about 15-18 months old. This SAVED me. I mean, I was really ready to jump out the window. I'm a little more parent focused now. I realized that if she is acting up, I can just leave! Bummer for her! I was talking to her and talking to her and threatening to leave. Now, we just go. "Uh-oh! This is soo sad." The next time, believe me, she is better behaved. There is way too much to even explain in a post. I don't think my posts do it justice.
Marcia-that's one of my favorite lines. My other that I use ALL the time is "I love you too much to argue with you." I never thought my 2 year old would be trying to argue with me. Sometimes I do start in with "What did I say? Because I said so. Mommy said No." Then, I think Love and Logic. Ooops. LOL!
I'm human, so my emotions show. I think DD still sees that I am angry, but I am just not taking it out on her. She can still see that I am upset, even if I am not raising my voice. Believe me, if she hits me and we make eye contact, she says "Sorry! Sorry, Mom!" because she knows that an "Uh-oh" is coming her way. I don't think I am sheltering her from emotion. I don't think by lowering your voice and singing an "Uh-oh" changes that. It does however calm you down a bit and it's teaching my DD how to be in control of her anger.
I'm sure I am rambling at this point! Melanie has more years experience than me, and I'm sure can give you some more insight. All I know is, I can give you example after example of it working for me. My DD even gives herself "Thinking time" now. She walks to her room and then comes out and tell me she is "ready to be sweet, Mom." I think that is pretty darn awesome!!
Marcia-It doesn't say anything about being "Sweetsie" all the time. It just tells you to be calm. Love and Logic says Bad behavior + Anger= More bad behavior.
Hope that helps! Passing the buck to Melanie...(My personal coach. LOL!)
I have been listening to what you all say, but sometimes it's not enough to sing the uh-oh song. I mean, if it's something really bad, you don't have time to let them make their own decisions & then say "uh-oh" or "I am angry, so give me a minute". I am not saying these aren't good ideas to use for some things, but sometimes my 4 year old needs a swat on his bottom in order to remember that it isn't just always what HE wants to do that's important! I mean, we can agree to disagree, but for me if we're in public, or even at home for that matter & my 3 toddlers are out of control, just talking to them doesn't always work. doesn't mean that they need to be beaten, I would never condone that, but to raise your voice mets them know you mean business. I didn't get yelled at constantly, but I can remember that when my parents raised their voices to me they meant business.
It does work with my son, I'd say 8 times out of 10, to say "Mommy is angry" because he gets this pouty look & says "no, you're happy mommy, you're not angry with me" & then I say "I am angry at what you did/didn't do/whatever, I'm not angry with ANTHONY, I am angry at what anthony DID" or something like that/ At this point, they don't get in trouble too often. Mostly only act up when they're overtired & I just let that go, because I know I get crabby when I am tired. They can usually tell by my face if I am just a little angry or very angry. Then they start to tell me that I am angry & I can't help but laugh. The other day my 4 year old ds was acting up a lot & I say "do you need a spanking?" He looks at me shaking his head & says "no thanks"!! LOL I couldn't do anything but laugh at that point, good manners take him a long way!
So do you think it's ok to implement some of the love &logic ideas into your daily routines with these little angels? Because some of it makes a lot of sense to me, but some of it - well, doesn't.
I apologize for taking so long to jump in here. I was having a bad day yesterday and wasn't feeling very social. LOL.
I am really not sure where to begin! First of all Eve, you have done a great job explaining things here. It is so difficult to summarize such a large amount of information into a couple of posts.
Let's start with the uh-oh song. This is targeted for kids under the age of five. What these kids do is very typical, predictable stuff. They throw temper tantrums. They whine. They color on walls. They hit. They bite. They stand on tables and chairs. And so on. The "uh-oh" song is the blanket response to all of it. These children are much smarter than adults often give them credit for. They can remember from one day to the next not to do certain things. The uh-oh song simply removes the child from the situation letting them know that it's not okay to do what they were doing and singing "uh-oh" is the reminder to the parent that there is no need to use a lot of words to make the point. The child knows what he/she did. The less words we use the more effective we are. Like Eve, we use the uh-oh song when our daughter is whining or not listening and we let her know she can come out when she is sweet. Works every time. No stress on my part at all. It's really nice to know I can get the behavior I want and I don't have to get angry in the process.
Now on to the older kids. This program was actually designed for older kids. The toddler books and tapes came around later when parents began asking for them. Most of their books and tapes are for older children. I will get into some favorites in a moment.
The ultimate goal in using this program is to raise responsible kids. By the time kids become adolescents they have to make life and death decisions on a daily basis. We want our kids to have as much practice making decisions when they are young and the price tag is low as is possible. In the real world, people are not given warnings and chances nor are they rescued when they mess up. If you get caught speeding, you get a ticket. If you arrive late to the airport you miss your plane. If you don't fulfill your obligations at work, you get fired. These price tags are big. But when you are seven and you forget your homework, perhaps you miss a recess to do it. When a parent swoops in and rescues the child, like delivering the forgotten homework, the learning opportunity has been robbed from that child.
A couple of weeks ago my son left his Yu-gi-oh cards in his pocket and they all went through the wash. This kid brings those cards with him everywhere and I knew when I saw it was going to be big. I prepared myself and called him downstairs. I sat with him and hugged him on the couch as I gave him the information. I didn't lecture him about taking care of his things. I didn't offer to buy him new ones (though that's what I really wanted to do!). I let him process the situation. He never once asked me for new ones. He never once got angry and blamed me, which he surely would have done had I started in on him on responsibility. He processed it and dealt with it. He knows if he wants more it's up to him to earn them.
Marcia, I would really encourage you to read one of their books. You took exactly the approach they recommend. Find one behavior you want to change in your child and try a L & L approach on it. When it works, expand out to more. I think you will find this approach is not at all icky-sweet all the time as appears to be the impression you have gotten. It simply allows the children to do the thinking.
As for favorites, I always recommend "Parenting With Love and Logic" first. It gives the bones of the program. But it leaves you wanting more! The rest of their tapes are conversational and very fun to listen to. I like to play them repeatedly just to give myself reminders to keep me on track. I love "Four Steps to Responsibility". It's a short tape, but does a great job outlining each step. I also enjoy "Didn't I tell you to take out the trash?", a tape about chores. Another favorite is "Choices, Failures and Thoughtful Risks".
They also have books and tapes for kids with ADHD. I have never heard these tapes and I don't know anyone with an ADHD child who has, so I never recommend them. But just as an FYI, they do claim that these techniques work well on these kids.
If I missed any questions or if I created new ones, please feel free to ask.
Mindy, with the examples you just gave there is too much talking going on. This technique is not about reasoning with a young child. It's about action. The other day we were at Applebees. Our 2.5 year old kept standing up and would not sit back down. So I picked her up and carried her out of the restaurant (the whole time she was yelling, "I sweet! I sweet!"). I brought her out to the car and buckled her in her carseat. I stood outside the car for a few minutes. Then I unbuckled her and asked her if she was ready to go back in. She said yes. We went in. She sat at the table like the sweet little girl she is for the rest of the time.
As Eve said, I am simply sharing what works for us. If it's not something that interests you, so be it. But if it does, you have the website. Go check it out.
That sounds good. We have actually left a restaurant one time only. They have got taken into the bathroom too. Usually if I stand up & say OK, let's go home, they act up right away! Sounds like we're on the same page though.
Melanie,
Are the books up above all for teaching the older child? If so can you recommeded the one that would help with a 10 and 5 year old the most. I want to read one and see how it goes, then invest in more..LOL
TIA
Melanie and Eve, I wasn't saying that you guys or the sight say to be sweetsie, I was just saying what I don't do. I've worked in daycares where the teachers and so sickeningly sweet the kids would never know if anything was wrong. I was just stating that I was middle of the road.
I personally had never heard of L&L until I joined Mom's View. Each child is different so I think you have to learn the child and do what works on that child. Some children work with stern tones, others work with time outs, some work well if you just sit them down and talk with them, while others may need a spanking. The singing gets the childs attention because babies love music. Even if there is no musical instruments(other than your teeth grinding together) they know that singing is soothing and calming. And I think everyone needs that at a stressful time. Someone once told me I didn't spank my son enough; I was flabergasted. I asked specifically for a # of times I needed to spank him and they couldn't answer me. Take aways work wonders with him. He has so much he likes to get taken away that he's usually on good behavior. You have to do what is right for you and for the child.
LOL Bethk! My dh tells me I don't spank them enough. For me, I know how much they can get away with with me (& so do they! ) They do act better for him, and he doesn't spank them all the time, he really doesn't need to, but they know that if he does, they will not be happy! I just hate seeing them so upset! Guess I'm a softie!! LOL
Generally, the children do listen better to their fathers though. And most older kids that I've seen, the fathers don't have to spank them at all, they just give them a "look" & theystraighten up - maybe because they know what might happen if they don't! With my daughter, she does the scream her head off thing that someone else mentioned in the "jitchen table" section!!! So she rarely gets spanked. I think seeing her older brother get in trouble made her think "I don't want any of this" HAhahaha!!
Stori, all the tapes I mentioned revolve around the same theme: teaching kids to be responsible. They use different examples and different phrases to get to the same point. I like it because each time I listen to a tape I get another helpful hint I can put into use. I definitely suggest the Parenting With Love and Logic book or tape first. (Personally, I liked reading that one better, but I do listen to it on tape too for reinforcement). That one gives you the best overall feel for what this is all about and why.
Marcia, I do apologize. I misunderstood what you were saying. I took it to mean you could not do Love and Logic because it was too sweetsie, which really isn't the case. I didn't realize you were making a separate point.
Thanks Mel,
I am off to the bookstore tonight!
I have to say that I've read some on the L&L techniques. I even use several of their ideas myself.
I think that it works better on a one-on-one basis. If it were just me and one of my children all day, it would be a lot easier to use some of the techniques. But, with 3 kids under the age of 5 all running around in different directions, sometimes I have to raise my voice and say a stern "STOP", to get everyones attention. If I just started singing the uh-oh song, no one would even notice.
Like stated above, L&L is a great tool. Just pick out the things that work for you and your own family. Some families may swear by one certain technique, where it may not work at all for another family. One more idea....if you are hesitant to invest in a bunch of books right off the bat....check out your local library first. That way, you can see what it's all about, and not feel like you lost out on $$ if you decide it's not for you
Yes mommyathome, I have the same problem. I have 3 & my oldest just turned 4. If I started singing uh-oh, I think they would just be like "OK, mom's finally cracked, we knew it would happen, now let's DESTROY the house - yay!!!!!"
I have to raise my voice, too sometimes & swat the butts sometimes too. The "mommy's very angry" thing seems to be working well for me, too. They are all learning to talk about their emotions now (angry, sad, happy, silly, etc.) so to say I am angry makes them think. This is my 3 & 4 year old I am talking about, not the 1 year old. She only knows 1 emotion - FUNNY!!! She thinks everything is hilarious!!!
Well,
I went to the bookstore last night, and this book is great! I skipped right to the middle and read about the Telephone ettiquette part! It was so funny, and boy am I guilty of the whole scenario! The book is on my Christmas list for hubby...I would have bought it last night but it is much cheaper online, so I will be patient.
Thanks for the recommendation, Eve and Melanie. I sure did get a good laugh!
Me too, Stori. Don't feel bad. That's why the book is a nice reference. You can look up a specific problem, like telephone interuptions and get some ideas and make them fit for you. Believe me, when you listen to the tapes, you always think "Uggh! I do that!That does make sense!" LOL!
Mindy, just remember that it's the "uh-oh" with immediate action. The "uh-oh" is just the cue. It's like/is classic conditioning. It's like the bell for Pavlov's dogs. Once the child realizes that Mom/Dad acts everytime they misbehave (that's why choosing one behavior to change works best) when they hear the "uh-oh" the automatically remember the time they spent in their room. When DD was hitting or kicking our aging dog, she would go to her crib about 10-12 times in a row. The next day it was twice, and by that night she heard "uh-oh" and said "Sorry! Sorry!" So, another words, it takes a long time for the "uh-oh" to work on it's own.
I also don't always put her in her room. If we are at my Mom's house, I put her in the bathroom. Melanie mentioned bring them to the car, we've done that too. I also will take away a movie or her tv and then she has to do chores and be sweet to earn it back. She doesn't just get it back the next day. Sometimes it takes a week. Poor kid! LOL! But, she's getting it!
Eve, you sound like a very good mom
And, the last sentence you wrote is really what matters...."she's getting it". No matter what others decide to do, or not to do, as long as something works, go with it! I enjoy your posts about L&L. This has reminded me that I need to read even more LOL
I am so happy to hear you liked what you saw so far, Stori! Let us know when you get the book and how it works for you. Dh and I were hoping to go to a seminar with Jim Faye in January but it doesn't look like it will work for us.  These guys are so fun to listen to I would love to see them in person!
I feel like I am beating a dead horse here, but I just want to reiterate what Eve said. "Uh-oh" without action is pointless. There is no uh-oh at all in that case. LOL. The uh-oh is the conditioning for the child as Eve pointed out and is the reminder to the parent to stop using words and let the actions do the teaching.
BTW-I have three kids, ages 8, 6, and 2.5. I've been using these techniques for several years and find them just as effective on all three as I do when it is one on one. But that's our experience.
Melanie,
You aren't beating a dead horse. I love to hear, try and practice different ideas that other moms use. It makes me a more well rounded mom and hopefully my kids will know that I tried my best!
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